What's a rapper?

shorttrini said:

Musicslave said:

Amen brother! People like to sleep on the original "R" but not me. I recognize real skills when I hear them.

I don't think anybody can argue LL wasn't a legitmate MC. That's more a sign of either ignorance or taste. He was our first major solo Hip Hop star outside of Kurtis Blow. But Kurtis never crossed over like LL.

and the fact that MC's like Kurtis and Rakim never crossed over, is the reason why I hold them in higher esteem than I do L.L.

Which is why most of the MCs on any given top 10 list were not commercially successful artists. But I think LL crossed over the right way, and the combination of his skills/MC "cred," commercial success and overall impact on the game earn him a spot in or near the 10.

Early shit is not to be with. More hit and miss in more recent years. Not that different from most. Going Back to Cali, Mama... all them shits = top notch.

shorttrini said:

JoeTyler said:

a member of the TOP5 BEST commercial hip-hop artists

I 100% agree!! I would not place him in the same catagory as a Biggie, Rakim, or even a Jay-Z.

First off... Biggie (although I am fan) and Jay Z dont belong in no shape or fashion in a sentence with RAKIM.....period.

The only commercial rapper than probably deserves to be mentioned with Rakim is Nas and Nas is not even that commercial.

They are NOT in his category. And LL Cool J is lightyears better than Jay Z fuck that bullshit yall mofos listening to the 2013 radio a little to much All Jay Z does is steal from Biggie, Krs One etc and comes up with Micky Dee 3rd grader punch lines. LL was not a political rapper but he has a much stronger catalogue classics.

Earth to Prince.org popularity does not equal influence, authenticity and creativity or even talent.

NONE of Jay Zs albums are as influential as LL'c debut "Radio" I DONT CARE WHAT NOBODY SAYS.

This org is shit now none of yall know a got damn thing about music and real hip hop.

I dare somebody to challenge me

The thing (one of the MANY things) I love about LL is I can listen to his music in mixed company and be completely at ease. I don't have to be horrified at him using the "N" word throughout his songs. I know some blacks don't feel uncomfortable listening to hip-hop with their white friends with that word being sprinkled throughout the song but it makes me feel very awkward. But, that's just me.

mjscarousal said:

shorttrini said:

I 100% agree!! I would not place him in the same catagory as a Biggie, Rakim, or even a Jay-Z.

First off... Biggie (although I am fan) and Jay Z dont belong in no shape or fashion in a sentence with RAKIM.....period.

The only commercial rapper than probably deserves to be mentioned with Rakim is Nas and Nas is not even that commercial.

They are NOT in his category. And LL Cool J is lightyears better than Jay Z fuck that bullshit yall mofos listening to the 2013 radio a little to much All Jay Z does is steal from Biggie, Krs One etc and comes up with Micky Dee 3rd grader punch lines. LL was not a political rapper but he has a much stronger catalogue classics.

Earth to Prince.org popularity does not equal influence, authenticity and creativity or even talent.

NONE of Jay Zs albums are as influential as LL'c debut "Radio" I DONT CARE WHAT NOBODY SAYS.

This org is shit now none of yall know a got damn thing about music and real hip hop.

I dare somebody to challenge me

KRS-1

Plus he said my name in one song so i have to give love ok it was a refrence to Mike Tyson and not me.. but still

[Edited 3/13/13 14:01pm]

and the fact that MC's like Kurtis and Rakim never crossed over, is the reason why I hold them in higher esteem than I do L.L.

actually Rakim and Blow did try an attempt to make commercial friendly love songs. they just didnt hit the charts like LL.

Rakim - Stay A While

http://www.youtube.com/wa...4MEijImx7o

Eric B. & Rakim - What's On Your Mind?

http://www.youtube.com/wa...m9rwTUih08

Kurtis Blow - Love Don´t Love Nobody

http://www.youtube.com/wa...2A5okZqdlE

Kurtis Blow - All i want in this world

http://www.youtube.com/wa...pnRZ2zaunQ

LL may have created lots of rap ballads in the charts, but

an artist that can cross over to any genre, for me personally is succesfull.

ThaCat said:

and the fact that MC's like Kurtis and Rakim never crossed over, is the reason why I hold them in higher esteem than I do L.L.

actually Rakim and Blow did try an attempt to make commercial friendly love songs. they just didnt hit the charts like LL.

Rakim - Stay A While

http://www.youtube.com/wa...4MEijImx7o

Eric B. & Rakim - What's On Your Mind?

http://www.youtube.com/wa...m9rwTUih08

Kurtis Blow - Love Don´t Love Nobody

http://www.youtube.com/wa...2A5okZqdlE

Kurtis Blow - All i want in this world

http://www.youtube.com/wa...pnRZ2zaunQ

LL may have created lots of rap ballads in the charts, but

an artist that can cross over to any genre, for me personally is succesfull.

I agree

BUT

that does not necessarily make them influential, it just reflects popularity.

Some of the most influential rappers/MC of hip hop have NEVER crossed over.

At the end of the day, its about the contributions, impact, material etc not about how many hits they had. Hits dont mean nothing if its not going to be remembered years from now.

Now, there are some crossover rappers that are influential but not ALL of them. LL is definitly one of them for different reasons.

[Edited 3/13/13 21:44pm]

LL's new album has a track with Chuck D.,

glad to see two 80s great collab together after 20 years in the biz.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...h6uXhgMIU0

the album even features new artist like Kendrick Lamar.

the man has no boundaries.

ThaCat said:

LL's new album has a track with Chuck D.,

glad to see two 80s great collab together after 20 years in the biz.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...h6uXhgMIU0

the album even features new artist like Kendrick Lamar.

the man has no boundaries.

That's sounds promising. Afterall, I've missed the Knock You The Hell Out, Bad, Rock The Bells LL!

Graycap23 said:

mjscarousal said:

First off... Biggie (although I am fan) and Jay Z dont belong in no shape or fashion in a sentence with RAKIM.....period.

The only commercial rapper than probably deserves to be mentioned with Rakim is Nas and Nas is not even that commercial.

They are NOT in his category. And LL Cool J is lightyears better than Jay Z fuck that bullshit yall mofos listening to the 2013 radio a little to much All Jay Z does is steal from Biggie, Krs One etc and comes up with Micky Dee 3rd grader punch lines. LL was not a political rapper but he has a much stronger catalogue classics.

Earth to Prince.org popularity does not equal influence, authenticity and creativity or even talent.

NONE of Jay Zs albums are as influential as LL'c debut "Radio" I DONT CARE WHAT NOBODY SAYS.

This org is shit now none of yall know a got damn thing about music and real hip hop.

I dare somebody to challenge me

KRS-1

The problem is context. We define so many early rappers -- LL, Ice Cube, Common, Mos Def -- by what they have done in later years, not their influence beforehand or actual skills on the mic. When he's on, there are few better than Mighty Mos or Com. There are so many MCs that don't get their due commercially but are essential to the game, including:

Zev Love X

Grand Puba

Kelvin Mercer

Guru

Jeru

D.O.C. (the closest thing the West Coast ever had to Rakim)

That being said, mjs is right. LL's Radio is the prototype for a top-selling hip-hop album. At the same time, in terms of influence, in 15 years, people will be saying about Jay-Z what she's saying now.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

KRS-1

The problem is context. We define so many early rappers -- LL, Ice Cube, Common, Mos Def -- by what they have done in later years, not their influence beforehand or actual skills on the mic. When he's on, there are few better than Mighty Mos or Com. There are so many MCs that don't get their due commercially but are essential to the game, including:

Zev Love X

Grand Puba

Kelvin Mercer

Guru

Jeru

D.O.C. (the closest thing the West Coast ever had to Rakim)

That being said, mjs is right. LL's Radio is the prototype for a top-selling hip-hop album. At the same time, in terms of influence, in 15 years, people will be saying about Jay-Z what she's saying now.

Exactly

KRS One, Guru etc have ALWAYS been underrated and the funny thing is most of what Jay Z does and steals were FROM THEM! (But he always gets the credit for it)

mjscarousal said:

KRS One, Guru etc have ALWAYS been underrated and the funny thing is most of what Jay Z does and steals were FROM THEM! (But he always gets the credit for it)

Jay-Z had the best timing of any MC in the history of the game. By the time Biggie died, he had enough cred in the underground/mixtape scene to get props, and Biggie basically blessed his stake as a top MC. He then worked with Swizz, Yeezy, the Neptunes and Just Blaze when each were in their primes. He had a keen bidness sense and capitalized on it all.

FWIW, Zev Love X, a/k/a Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah and Metal Fingers Doom may be the most influential MC of the last decade. A lot of these newer cats owe him a debt, includling Aesop Rock.

[Edited 3/14/13 10:28am]

namepeace said:

mjscarousal said:

KRS One, Guru etc have ALWAYS been underrated and the funny thing is most of what Jay Z does and steals were FROM THEM! (But he always gets the credit for it)

Jay-Z had the best timing of any MC in the history of the game. By the time Biggie died, he had enough cred in the underground/mixtape scene to get props, and Biggie basically blessed his stake as a top MC. He then worked with Swizz, Yeezy, the Neptunes and Just Blaze when each were in their primes. He had a keen bidness sense and capitalized on it all.

FWIW, Zev Love X, a/k/a Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah and Metal Fingers Doom may be the most influential MC of the last decade. A lot of these newer cats owe him a debt, includling Aesop Rock.

[Edited 3/14/13 10:28am]

I am not knocking none of that and I agree with all of that but see none of that has anything to do with music contribution or influence in the genre.

Im just tired of rappers like Krs, Nas, Rakim getting overlooked when they have made a significant contribution to the genre more than Jay Z.

mjscarousal said:

namepeace said:

Jay-Z had the best timing of any MC in the history of the game. By the time Biggie died, he had enough cred in the underground/mixtape scene to get props, and Biggie basically blessed his stake as a top MC. He then worked with Swizz, Yeezy, the Neptunes and Just Blaze when each were in their primes. He had a keen bidness sense and capitalized on it all.

FWIW, Zev Love X, a/k/a Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah and Metal Fingers Doom may be the most influential MC of the last decade. A lot of these newer cats owe him a debt, includling Aesop Rock.

[Edited 3/14/13 10:28am]

I am not knocking none of that and I agree with all of that but see none of that has anything to do with music contribution or influence in the genre.

Im just tired of rappers like Krs, Nas, Rakim getting overlooked when they have made a significant contribution to the genre more than Jay Z.

I am with you. But Jay-Z's impact influence is a product of age.

Music's core audience (let's say 18-30) grew up with Jay-Z.* But the KRS's, Rakims, Chuck D's and De La's faded into the background (but not away) almost 20 years ago.

Freshmen in college today were preschoolers when Pac and Big died. For all they (may) know, Jay-Z is the king of MCs, Common and Ice-T are in movies, Ice Cube is a sitcom comedian and Coors Light pitchman, and Rakim may be that guy they read about on Wikipedia or the old Source magazines they found in their parents' basements.

*I think Nas is getting much respect artistically and commercially now, and is probably more revered as an MC than Jay-Z ('ether" is now a verb thanks to him . . . and Jay-Z).

namepeace said:

mjscarousal said:

I am not knocking none of that and I agree with all of that but see none of that has anything to do with music contribution or influence in the genre.

Im just tired of rappers like Krs, Nas, Rakim getting overlooked when they have made a significant contribution to the genre more than Jay Z.

I am with you. But Jay-Z's impact influence is a product of age.

Music's core audience (let's say 18-30) grew up with Jay-Z.* But the KRS's, Rakims, Chuck D's and De La's faded into the background (but not away) almost 20 years ago.

Freshmen in college today were preschoolers when Pac and Big died. For all they (may) know, Jay-Z is the king of MCs, Common and Ice-T are in movies, Ice Cube is a sitcom comedian and Coors Light pitchman, and Rakim may be that guy they read about on Wikipedia or the old Source magazines they found in their parents' basements.

*I think Nas is getting much respect artistically and commercially now, and is probably more revered as an MC than Jay-Z ('ether" is now a verb thanks to him . . . and Jay-Z).

Nevermind Namepeace I read your post wrong, my bad You made good points

[Edited 3/14/13 12:38pm]

[Edited 3/14/13 12:39pm]

LL is in my Top 10.

shorttrini said:

namepeace said:

Disagree. Slightly.

LL was a legit MC who happened to have the star power to "cross over," with platinum albums. Not just singles.

"Rock The Bells," "I Can't Live Without My Radio," "I'm Bad," "Jack The Ripper," "Goin' Back To Cali," etc. Those are legit hip-hop tracks.

Jay-Z is more of a crossover artist now than LL was in the 80s and early 90s.

So he didn't establish himself as a "commercial" hip-hop artist. He established himself as an MC who could sell records. Slight but significant distinction.

Not saying he lives on the same street as any of those MCs -- as long as Rakim draws breath he's the best -- but he lives in the same neighborhood.

In my humble opinion, once he did stuff like, "I Need Love" and "Hey Lover", he went commercial and lost his street cred as an MC. As far as him being from the same neighborhood as those you mentioned, he couldn't, even if he had a GPS device....

Excuse me, but I Need Love is one of THE definite hip-hop/rap slow jams. But I can agree that Hey Lover was a mistake in retrospect because the track has not aged well at all.

mjscarousal said:

shorttrini said:

I 100% agree!! I would not place him in the same catagory as a Biggie, Rakim, or even a Jay-Z.

First off... Biggie (although I am fan) and Jay Z dont belong in no shape or fashion in a sentence with RAKIM.....period.

The only commercial rapper than probably deserves to be mentioned with Rakim is Nas and Nas is not even that commercial.

They are NOT in his category. And LL Cool J is lightyears better than Jay Z fuck that bullshit yall mofos listening to the 2013 radio a little to much All Jay Z does is steal from Biggie, Krs One etc and comes up with Micky Dee 3rd grader punch lines. LL was not a political rapper but he has a much stronger catalogue classics.

Earth to Prince.org popularity does not equal influence, authenticity and creativity or even talent.

NONE of Jay Zs albums are as influential as LL'c debut "Radio" I DONT CARE WHAT NOBODY SAYS.

This org is shit now none of yall know a got damn thing about music and real hip hop.

I dare somebody to challenge me

1. Rakim Allah

2. KRS-One

3. Big Daddy Kane

4. Chuck D

5. Melle Mel

6. Kool Moe Dee

7. 2pac

8. Ice Cube

9. LL Cool J

10. Mr. Scarface

I dare you and/or anyone else to try to rank The Notorious B.I.G., Nas, Jay-Z, & Eminem too much higher than the MCs in my Top 10.

TonyVanDam said:

mjscarousal said:

First off... Biggie (although I am fan) and Jay Z dont belong in no shape or fashion in a sentence with RAKIM.....period.

The only commercial rapper than probably deserves to be mentioned with Rakim is Nas and Nas is not even that commercial.

They are NOT in his category. And LL Cool J is lightyears better than Jay Z fuck that bullshit yall mofos listening to the 2013 radio a little to much All Jay Z does is steal from Biggie, Krs One etc and comes up with Micky Dee 3rd grader punch lines. LL was not a political rapper but he has a much stronger catalogue classics.

Earth to Prince.org popularity does not equal influence, authenticity and creativity or even talent.

NONE of Jay Zs albums are as influential as LL'c debut "Radio" I DONT CARE WHAT NOBODY SAYS.

This org is shit now none of yall know a got damn thing about music and real hip hop.

I dare somebody to challenge me

1. Rakim Allah

2. KRS-One

3. Big Daddy Kane

4. Chuck D

5. Melle Mel

6. Kool Moe Dee

7. 2pac

8. Ice Cube

9. LL Cool J

10. Mr. Scarface

I dare you and/or anyone else to try to rank The Notorious B.I.G., Nas, Jay-Z, & Eminem too much higher than the MCs in my Top 10.

Moe Dee Bruh? I liked Moe Dee just as much as the next man but Top 10? ......Nah

4 my money, in no particular order:

KRS-1

LL

Andre 3000

Scarface

Paris

Chuck D

Ice Cube

Snoop

Immortal Technic

2 pac

.......and Busta. (edit)

[Edited 3/15/13 12:51pm]

Graycap23 said:

4 my money, in no particular order:

KRS-1

LL

Andre 3000

Scarface

Paris

Chuck D

Ice Cube

Snoop

Immortal Technic

2 pac

Maybe the most radical MC in the game.

The Ten As I See It, in no order:

Rakim

Chuck D

KRS-ONE

Metal Fingers Doom

The Notorious B.I.G.

Kelvin Mercer (Posdunous-Plug 1)

Ice Cube

LL Cool J

Ghostface

Tupac Shakur (though I'm not a huge fan I have to recognize)

"Also receiving votes" -- Common, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Kamaal The Abstract, Big Daddy Kane

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

4 my money, in no particular order:

KRS-1

LL

Andre 3000

Scarface

Paris

Chuck D

Ice Cube

Snoop

Immortal Technic

2 pac

Maybe the most radical MC in the game.

The Ten As I See It, in no order:

Rakim

Chuck D

KRS-ONE

Metal Fingers Doom

The Notorious B.I.G.

Kelvin Mercer (Posdunous-Plug 1)

Ice Cube

LL Cool J

Ghostface

Tupac Shakur (though I'm not a huge fan I have to recognize)

"Also receiving votes" -- Common, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Kamaal The Abstract, Big Daddy Kane

I remember Paris. Was he a member of the Black Panther Party or was it just an image thing.

Musicslave said:

namepeace said:

Maybe the most radical MC in the game.

The Ten As I See It, in no order:

Rakim

Chuck D

KRS-ONE

Metal Fingers Doom

The Notorious B.I.G.

Kelvin Mercer (Posdunous-Plug 1)

Ice Cube

LL Cool J

Ghostface

Tupac Shakur (though I'm not a huge fan I have to recognize)

"Also receiving votes" -- Common, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Kamaal The Abstract, Big Daddy Kane

I remember Paris. Was he a member of the Black Panther Party or was it just an image thing.

He adopted the Panther motif, being from the Bay Area, but the BPs were defunct by then, IIRC. He featured snippets of Bobby Seale and BP rallies on his first album.

namepeace said:

Musicslave said:

I remember Paris. Was he a member of the Black Panther Party or was it just an image thing.

He adopted the Panther motif, being from the Bay Area, but the BPs were defunct by then, IIRC. He featured snippets of Bobby Seale and BP rallies on his first album.

Thanks. Good. I was hoping he wasn't apart of that "New" Black Panther Party. They're embarrassing.

LL is on of the top rappers but I can't believe a lot of you guys are sleepin on Guru from Gang starr. I think Kurtis Blow is way over rated and I think he is one of the worst mc's of all time.

My list not in order

LL

Phife...one of the most under rated mc's

Qtip

Guru

Grand Puba

Sadat X

Rakim

Snoop

Ice Cube

Ice-T

Chuck D

method man...best cameo rapper

redman

keith murray

Too short...voice wise...not much there lyrically

Kool moe Dee

shyheim....when he was a kid

Common

Magoo

Nas

outkast

jay z

busta

tupac

mc lyte- my only female to make the list

* no biggie- sorry

[Edited 3/15/13 12:41pm]

[Edited 3/15/13 12:44pm]

How did I 4get Busta, Qtip and Mos Def?