I'm one of the biggest fans or maybe the #1 fan of Hitsville USA...i admire Mr. Gordy so much because of what he brought to the world of not just soul music, American Music...but it saddens me to hear about what really went on behind closed doors..i understand that motown was like a family, your good days tnen bad days..but when you hear stories about Florence Ballard, Martha Reeves, Shorty Long, Marvin gaye, The funk Brothers, The Isley Brothers(whom people forgot were on the label for a little), and Gladys Knight(who was already big time and even bigger when she left)...

Was it Berry Gordy himself or was it the Motown Machine?

Mixture of the Motown powers-that-be, themselves (to some degree), the industry in general and the hangers-on. I used to think it but I don't think BG held any puppet strings over the acts that got any type of shaft after the glory years. It's debatable about what really happened with the ownership of who let the Marvelettes' name be taken by some shark.

I don't see Motown as different than any other label. They focused on more on certain acts and less on others. Motown also gave out the same rip off contracts like other labels. Even later on they wouldn't let Teena Marie out of her contract, but wouldn't release her music. She had to sue.

Yeah, the Brockert Law Initiative. I wonder why history fails to mention that...

u know its just crazy too hear about what had happen to mary Wells, Eddie Kendricks, david Ruffin, The Marvelettes,....i heard one time that when an artist wanted something, they had to go to Motown first...they just couldnt go down to the bank and get it themselves....but in my opinion artists like Stevie Wonder, Smokey, diana, and The Jackson 5, didnt have that problem,well it just looked that way

fred12 said:

u know its just crazy too hear about what had happen to mary Wells, Eddie Kendricks, david Ruffin, The Marvelettes,....i heard one time that when an artist wanted something, they had to go to Motown first...they just couldnt go down to the bank and get it themselves....but in my opinion artists like Stevie Wonder, Smokey, diana, and The Jackson 5, didnt have that problem,well it just looked that way

Scepter Records was the same way... Stevie had Lula Mae (his mother), Diana was too strong-willed, the Jacksons had Papa Joe of course (though financially they signed the wrong contract).

Well, Smoke couldn't see no wrong in Berry, since they were & still is, good friends.

HuMpThAnG said:

Well, Smoke couldn't see no wrong in Berry, since they were & still is, good friends.

Smoke and Berry were like brothers, still are. Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

Timmy84 said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Well, Smoke couldn't see no wrong in Berry, since they were & still is, good friends.

Smoke and Berry were like brothers, still are. Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

I have NEVER heard him say anything negative about Berry...NEVER!!

He'll defend that mug to the grave

HuMpThAnG said:

Timmy84 said:

Smoke and Berry were like brothers, still are. Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

I have NEVER heard him say anything negative about Berry...NEVER!!

He'll defend that mug to the grave

Right!

fred12 said:

u know its just crazy too hear about what had happen to mary Wells, Eddie Kendricks, david Ruffin, The Marvelettes,....i heard one time that when an artist wanted something, they had to go to Motown first...they just couldnt go down to the bank and get it themselves....but in my opinion artists like Stevie Wonder, Smokey, diana, and The Jackson 5, didnt have that problem,well it just looked that way

Motown was also the manager of the acts, which is not a situation that was a benefit to the performers. They wouldn't tell them what they sold (and didn't report sales to the RIAA), or tell them they had sold less than they did to avoid paying a lot of royalties (which was a common industry practice, especially with independent labels). They told the acts what to say in interviews and what kinds of questions not to answer.

Timmy84 said: Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

I had to re-read that one

Cinny said:

Timmy84 said: Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

I had to re-read that one

yup, mug was a junkie

Who WASN'T on the stuff at some point in time.

Cinny said:

Timmy84 said: Berry tried to help Smoke during his crack period.

I had to re-read that one

He called it "rock cocaine" but it's essentially another name for crack cocaine. He smoked it in his cigarettes.

They did to some degree, who who didn't.

The one Motown junkie that surprised me was Mary Wells...

Yes, he did.....but the more I learn about Motown, the more I think bad decisions/inexperience drove much of what hapened than sheer foul play. IOW, I think he actively did some folks wrong (think the Funk Brothers, Flo, and so forth) and others he mismanaged/neglected because he either misread the market OR was pursuing movies/tv when he should have focused on his main bread and butter...music. To my mind, Berry missed tons of opportunities when he tried to play Ingmar Bergman. Everytime his focus went to movies, the music side of the company suffered and declined. So much fab talent and ptential talent wasted, IMHO. By the time he sold Motown in 1988, it was a shell of what it had been even a few years before (say Motown 25).

Indies like Motown seem to fall apart for the same basic reasons...they're good at starting a trend, but have a hard time maintaining their edge once the product goes mass market. What made them appealing in the 1st place seems to get lost in the sauce. That Berry and Motown held on for 30 years (the years he owned it) is quite remarkable considering what happened to similar contemprary labels like Stax/Chess/Vee Jay and even Ruthless/Death Row/Bad Boy/Murder Inc/No Limit/etc in more recent times.

Funny thing about BG is that in some ways, he seems as embittered and bewilered by what happened as any of the atists that passed thru his care. Sad when you think of it, IMHO.

One of Motown/Berry's worst faults was it's way of encouraging all sorts of conflicts-of-interests for it's (potential) stars. When you look at how acts were managed it's like . You had his daughter and son-in-law managing acts signed to the label as well as relatives of his right hand woman (Suzanne de Passe) and the like. Let's not even talk abot JoBeTe and Stone Mountain acting for royalites and publishing. It's amazing that even Smokey and Stevie walked away w/ any bread, let alone Rick James (which would have never happened when Berry was 100% on the ball).

Where Motown/Berry delibrately did people wrong was on screwing them out of their publishing via many sneaky route AND giving folks hell when they tried to leave the label. To he wasn't always successful w/ this tatic, when he was it was devestating! In this regard, I think of Berry as something of a sadist. He'd rather destroy people he'd built up rather than see them prosper elsewhere See Flo, Mary Wells, HDH, etc for proof.

I think where Berry screwed up was thinking he could turn Motown into an empire. He betted a lot on making Motown bigger than the music and his decisions didn't really help (leaving Detroit for Los Angeles, though it could be argued Detroit was going through a rough patch during this time so Berry felt staying there was not safe anymore post-12th Street Riots, for example). He was also a notorious gambler and that led to his company going into the red. Berry had to sell his company in order to keep his riches and not file for bankruptcy, though it could be argued his sale of it ($61 million) was too low.

[Edited 12/15/12 1:26am]

brooksie said:

One of Motown/Berry's worst faults was it's way of encouraging all sorts of conflicts-of-interests for it's (potential) stars. When you look at how acts were managed it's like . You had his daughter and son-in-law managing acts signed to the label as well as relatives of his right hand woman (Suzanne de Passe) and the like. Let's not even talk abot JoBeTe and Stone Mountain acting for royalites and publishing. It's amazing that even Smokey and Stevie walked away w/ any bread, let alone Rick James (which would have never happened when Berry was 100% on the ball).

Where Motown/Berry delibrately did people wrong was on screwing them out of their publishing via many sneaky route AND giving folks hell when they tried to leave the label. To he wasn't always successful w/ this tatic, when he was it was devestating! In this regard, I think of Berry as something of a sadist. He'd rather destroy people he'd built up rather than see them prosper elsewhere See Flo, Mary Wells, HDH, etc for proof.

Marvin said he felt Motown was always watching his every move. He also felt he didn't have the business savvy of Stevie Wonder and he was so used to being "loyal" (i.e., belonging to the Gordy family) that even when he did fight it, he still had mixed emotions on how to go along with it. That was the same hang up with Diana Ross. When Diana left, not only did she had to give up any right to royalties after she left Motown in 1980 but she was left cash broke ($150,000, which was only $11,000 more than the $139,000-plus that got Florence Ballard free from the Supremes). Nowadays, if you ask Diana about a "Motown family", she would say the family "doesn't exist anymore" and that she doesn't feel no family ties despite still talking to Smoke (and occasionally Berry and Mary Wilson).

[Edited 12/15/12 1:32am]

Timmy84 said:

I think where Berry screwed up was thinking he could turn Motown into an empire. He betted a lot on making Motown bigger than the music and his decisions didn't really help (leaving Detroit for Los Angeles, though it could be argued Detroit was going through a rough patch during this time so Berry felt staying there was not safe anymore post-12th Street Riots, for example). He was also a notorious gambler and that led to his company going into the red. Berry had to sell his company in order to keep his riches and not file for bankruptcy, though it could be argued his sale of it ($61 million) was too low.

[Edited 12/15/12 1:26am]

I'm always baffled in Motown specials when they talk about his going to "conquer" movies/tv out in LA..if anything, they conquered him. It amazes me about how naive Berry was on that score, esp. given the

racial climate of that time. As for Detroit, it always was a hard town and I can understand them eventually leaving, but he did it way too soon and for reasons he clearly didn't fully consider (ie movies/tv). The fact that Motown lasted for 20+ years after being pulled from it's natural habitat is quite the miracle, if ya feel me. I ind it supremely ironic that a group originally from Detroit (ie the De Barges) had to go to LA to get a deal w Motown!

I suspect $61 mil was way too low for Motown even in the late 80s (consider MJ spent in the neighborhood of $40-50 mil just for the Beatles cat only a few years before), but I also suspect Berry was just tired of the whole thing by the mid 80s. I've always said that Motown=Berry and Berry=Motown, so when he couldn't deal anymore Motown as it was had to just become another brand. I think he couldn't cope w/ the changing times, marketing, and artists demands. It's a shame that nothing much came from Jermaine's remaining behind because I wonder if he could have kept the juice flowing. He seemed a promising record exec.

Diana was very lucky that she got when the gettin' was good. She was too big for Berry to just sandbag and blackball like he'd done others, but she's one of the few (along w/ the Jacksons, The Pips, Marvin, and a few more) who managed to pull this sort of 'second act' off.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

They did to some degree, who who didn't.

Yea pretty much

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

I think where Berry screwed up was thinking he could turn Motown into an empire. He betted a lot on making Motown bigger than the music and his decisions didn't really help (leaving Detroit for Los Angeles, though it could be argued Detroit was going through a rough patch during this time so Berry felt staying there was not safe anymore post-12th Street Riots, for example). He was also a notorious gambler and that led to his company going into the red. Berry had to sell his company in order to keep his riches and not file for bankruptcy, though it could be argued his sale of it ($61 million) was too low.

[Edited 12/15/12 1:26am]

I'm always baffled in Motown specials when they talk about his going to "conquer" movies/tv out in LA..if anything, they conquered him. It amazes me about how naive Berry was on that score, esp. given the

racial climate of that time. As for Detroit, it always was a hard town and I can understand them eventually leaving, but he did it way too soon and for reasons he clearly didn't fully consider (ie movies/tv). The fact that Motown lasted for 20+ years after being pulled from it's natural habitat is quite the miracle, if ya feel me. I ind it supremely ironic that a group originally from Detroit (ie the De Barges) had to go to LA to get a deal w Motown!

I suspect $61 mil was way too low for Motown even in the late 80s (consider MJ spent in the neighborhood of $40-50 mil just for the Beatles cat only a few years before), but I also suspect Berry was just tired of the whole thing by the mid 80s. I've always said that Motown=Berry and Berry=Motown, so when he couldn't deal anymore Motown as it was had to just become another brand. I think he couldn't cope w/ the changing times, marketing, and artists demands. It's a shame that nothing much came from Jermaine's remaining behind because I wonder if he could have kept the juice flowing. He seemed a promising record exec.

Diana was very lucky that she got when the gettin' was good. She was too big for Berry to just sandbag and blackball like he'd done others, but she's one of the few (along w/ the Jacksons, The Pips, Marvin, and a few more) who managed to pull this sort of 'second act' off.

to all of that. Berry didn't seem real hands-on with the music anymore after 1972, it shows...

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

I think where Berry screwed up was thinking he could turn Motown into an empire. He betted a lot on making Motown bigger than the music and his decisions didn't really help (leaving Detroit for Los Angeles, though it could be argued Detroit was going through a rough patch during this time so Berry felt staying there was not safe anymore post-12th Street Riots, for example). He was also a notorious gambler and that led to his company going into the red. Berry had to sell his company in order to keep his riches and not file for bankruptcy, though it could be argued his sale of it ($61 million) was too low.

Diana was very lucky that she got when the gettin' was good. She was too big for Berry to just sandbag and blackball like he'd done others, but she's one of the few (along w/ the Jacksons, The Pips, Marvin, and a few more) who managed to pull this sort of 'second act' off.

Well, she did have a baby by him

HuMpThAnG said:

brooksie said:

Diana was very lucky that she got when the gettin' was good. She was too big for Berry to just sandbag and blackball like he'd done others, but she's one of the few (along w/ the Jacksons, The Pips, Marvin, and a few more) who managed to pull this sort of 'second act' off.

Well, she did have a baby by him

That don't mean shit. Berry didn't acknowledge her for 13 years...lol I read when Diana and her husband at the time attended Jermaine Jackson's wedding, Berry said some shit about Hazel being the only daughter he had. Diana and her husband left the ceremony after that.

[Edited 12/16/12 17:48pm]

Timmy84 said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Well, she did have a baby by him

That don't mean shit. Berry didn't acknowledge her for 13 years...lol I read when Diana and her husband at the time attended Jermaine Jackson's wedding, Berry said some shit about Hazel being the only daughter she had. Diana and her husband left the ceremony after that.

ummm...didn't know that

HuMpThAnG said:

Timmy84 said:

That don't mean shit. Berry didn't acknowledge her for 13 years...lol I read when Diana and her husband at the time attended Jermaine Jackson's wedding, Berry said some shit about Hazel being the only daughter she had. Diana and her husband left the ceremony after that.

ummm...didn't know that

Diana wanted to marry him too but Berry pretty much dismissed that idea. It's said Diana's marriage to Robert Ellis was a business arrangement (though Diana must've felt for him - they had two of Diana's younger daughters).

Timmy84 said:

HuMpThAnG said:

ummm...didn't know that

Diana wanted to marry him too but Berry pretty much dismissed that idea. It's said Diana's marriage to Robert Ellis was a business arrangement (though Diana must've felt for him - they had two of Diana's younger daughters).

yeah, think she did that outta spite

HuMpThAnG said:

Timmy84 said:

Diana wanted to marry him too but Berry pretty much dismissed that idea. It's said Diana's marriage to Robert Ellis was a business arrangement (though Diana must've felt for him - they had two of Diana's younger daughters).

yeah, think she did that outta spite

Of course. Robert was payback for Berry. Of course Berry didn't see nothing as a sign. In fact it wasn't until Diana was about to leave Motown that Berry had second thoughts but once Diana made up her mind, she couldn't be told to change it back. After making that decision, she discovered all the things that she thought was hers (gifts from Berry) were actually Berry's possessions that she had to return to him. That's why she took in real estate, production and used the RCA $20 million deal to her advantage.