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Thread started 12/10/12 3:07pm

JoeTyler

I'VE FINALLY REALIZED HOW AWFUL NON-FUNK/R&B PRODUCTIONS ARE

FUCK

just doin' some stuff before the end (change?) of the world as we know it (21st),

I'm burning some cds for the upcoming Xmas parties and DAMN!! it's amazing how GOOD funk/r&b/disco songs-albums of the 60s/70s/80s sound: a deep, rich, gargantuan sound that just commands the entire room, surrounding you, making your chest pump and your legs dance...

on the other hand, it's amazing how dull and thin pop, rock and similar genres sound (particularly post mid-70s pp/rock), the bass is nearly inaudible sometimes...I couldn't help but to tryin' to improve the songs, augmenting the bass and reducing that reverb shit...

that said, on a side note, it's amazing how GOOD Springsteen's albums of the 70s sound, damn! the early E Street sure was a funky, dirty band, a perfect drums/bass sound right there...

thoughts?

[Edited 12/10/12 15:19pm]

tinkerbell
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Reply #1 posted 12/10/12 3:54pm

Harlepolis

I'm just gonna sit here and hope Andy sees this thread coz he sures articulates my thoughts on this better than myself.

But in a nutshell? I agree. Although, you're liable to find some great stuff from 70s pop too, I slept on them till these recent years and I suggest you give them an open mind as well, I mean, its no wonder why rap artists sampled their too, its a testimony of their musicianship.

Edit: Oh and yes, SoulAlive aka David will hook you into some 70s pop too, if you're willing to heed his advice.

[Edited 12/10/12 15:55pm]

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Reply #2 posted 12/10/12 4:02pm

JoeTyler

Harlepolis said:

I'm just gonna sit here and hope Andy sees this thread coz he sures articulates my thoughts on this better than myself.

But in a nutshell? I agree. Although, you're liable to find some great stuff from 70s pop too, I slept on them till these recent years and I suggest you give them an open mind as well, I mean, its no wonder why rap artists sampled their too, its a testimony of their musicianship.

Edit: Oh and yes, SoulAlive aka David will hook you into some 70s pop too, if you're willing to heed his advice.

[Edited 12/10/12 15:55pm]

I dig 60s and early-70s pop

after that... the productions... just...well confused

it's no wonder that dance/pop artists of the mid-80s hired R&B/funk producers...

tinkerbell
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Reply #3 posted 12/10/12 4:16pm

Harlepolis

JoeTyler said:

Harlepolis said:

I'm just gonna sit here and hope Andy sees this thread coz he sures articulates my thoughts on this better than myself.

But in a nutshell? I agree. Although, you're liable to find some great stuff from 70s pop too, I slept on them till these recent years and I suggest you give them an open mind as well, I mean, its no wonder why rap artists sampled their too, its a testimony of their musicianship.

Edit: Oh and yes, SoulAlive aka David will hook you into some 70s pop too, if you're willing to heed his advice.

[Edited 12/10/12 15:55pm]

I dig 60s and early-70s pop

after that... the productions... just...well confused

it's no wonder that dance/pop artists of the mid-80s hired R&B/funk producers...

I'm partial to the mid-70s pop. America, Steely Dan, Hall & Oats, Todd, Chicago, Doobie Brothers and them, they gave me my dose in those years nod

Plus, plus,,,,,they put their foot down as far as mixing is concerned. You could tell from listening to their albums at that time period that mixing wasn't just an overthought, it was an integral part of the production, sometimes even the focal point - like Sly did. Anybody who will take great care for finer details deserves to be listened to IMO.

And shit, the material was great too. Beside, I need my balance. Coz for every Bootsy, Junie and George, there gotta be a Steely Dan or America to even that out.

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Reply #4 posted 12/10/12 4:41pm

scriptgirl

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Who's Junie?

"Lack of home training crosses all boundaries."
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Reply #5 posted 12/10/12 5:16pm

MickyDolenz

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Technically, engineers have more to do with the sound quality of a record than the producer, unless the producer has done work as an engineer.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #6 posted 12/10/12 5:30pm

rialb

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scriptgirl said:

Who's Junie?

A multi-instrumentalist and former member of the Ohio Players and Parliament-Funkadelic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Morrison

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Reply #7 posted 12/10/12 5:55pm

theAudience

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rialb said:

scriptgirl said:

Who's Junie?

A multi-instrumentalist and former member of the Ohio Players and Parliament-Funkadelic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Morrison


...Suzie Thundertussy & Super Groupie (edited version)




Music for adventurous listeners


tA


peace Tribal Records

"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."
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Reply #8 posted 12/10/12 6:27pm

Harlepolis

MickyDolenz said:

Technically, engineers have more to do with the sound quality of a record than the producer, unless the producer has done work as an engineer.

Not always necessarily.

For instance, Bob & Cecil said in a documentary that Stevie Wonder's "classic era" albums were mixed in a way that made the listener feel like he/she is sitting right in front of a drum kit. Got nothing to do with the sound quality.

Sly's thing wasn't about sound quality either, if anything its abstract and in the "throw everything at the wall and see what it will look like" tradition, since he overdubbed until he ran out of multi-tracks.

And don't even get me started on Todd Rundgren, who was a maniac behind the mixing board.

[Edited 12/10/12 18:28pm]

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Reply #9 posted 12/10/12 6:38pm

woogiebear

Jimmy Douglass.......one of THE BEST Funk/Soul Engineers EVER!!!!!!

cool

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Reply #10 posted 12/10/12 7:02pm

paisleysoul

U R preaching to the choir,I grew up in that era, my oldest son says I'm so lucky to have had such a great backdrop of music as a child.He's 31 & loves van Morrison, George Clinton, Sam Cooke, he not much of a fan of today's artists.
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Reply #11 posted 12/10/12 8:38pm

Scorp

JoeTyler said:

FUCK

just doin' some stuff before the end (change?) of the world as we know it (21st),

I'm burning some cds for the upcoming Xmas parties and DAMN!! it's amazing how GOOD funk/r&b/disco songs-albums of the 60s/70s/80s sound: a deep, rich, gargantuan sound that just commands the entire room, surrounding you, making your chest pump and your legs dance...

on the other hand, it's amazing how dull and thin pop, rock and similar genres sound (particularly post mid-70s pp/rock), the bass is nearly inaudible sometimes...I couldn't help but to tryin' to improve the songs, augmenting the bass and reducing that reverb shit...

that said, on a side note, it's amazing how GOOD Springsteen's albums of the 70s sound, damn! the early E Street sure was a funky, dirty band, a perfect drums/bass sound right there...

thoughts?

[Edited 12/10/12 15:19pm]

great music is over......and it's been over for a long time now.......

a very long time.......

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Reply #12 posted 12/10/12 9:13pm

MickyDolenz

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^^I think the OP is talking about the sound of the songs, not if the songs are good or not. A song like the Beastie Boys' Paul Revere has a lot of bass in it. It was mixed that way so people with 808 speakers in their car/truck can get a "boom boom" sound. A country record wouldn't be mixed like that, so it has a different sound.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #13 posted 12/11/12 4:55am

JoeTyler

MickyDolenz said:

^^I think the OP is talking about the sound of the songs, not if the songs are good or not. A song like the Beastie Boys' Paul Revere has a lot of bass in it. It was mixed that way so people with 808 speakers in their car/truck can get a "boom boom" sound. A country record wouldn't be mixed like that, so it has a different sound.

that's it

tinkerbell
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Reply #14 posted 12/11/12 5:08am

novabrkr

Huh?

That's just a beat flipped backwards. I don't hear anything exceptionally bassy in this.

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Reply #15 posted 12/11/12 5:32am

novabrkr

Modern mixes sound fairly thin except that the low end is emphasized ridiculously much. The bass sounds often completely detached from the rest of the music. There's a huge amount of high and low end separation involved and the mids have been chiseled out.

It's done on purpose as that type of mixes tend to sound pretty good on computer speakers and small hi-fi systems. A Rihanna record is bound to have a considerably fuller sound on that type of systems than a Sly Stone record. The problem is just that if you have more expensive speakers yourself you'll often get an annoyingly distorted and boxy response with the new material. A better set of speakers will reveal that the excessive amounts of bass and treble have not been achieved in a natural way. Sometimes it's nothing but distortion, really.

The stereo imagining is a whole lot interesting on newer records. I personally think that works against "funk" type of grooves though. In overall, when I listen to modern stuff I feel like I'm just listening to one production gimmick after another and that makes me feel a bit uneasy.

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Reply #16 posted 12/11/12 9:06am

MickyDolenz

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novabrkr said:

Huh?

That's just a beat flipped backwards. I don't hear anything exceptionally bassy in this.

Not a bass guitar, but a bass sound. Computer speakers are not really a good way to judge (and Youtube often compresses the sound), you need this biggrin :

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #17 posted 12/11/12 9:08am

novabrkr

I'm pretty sure I got the biggest speakers on this thread.

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Reply #18 posted 12/11/12 9:20am

novabrkr

'Tho how the hell could I really know with some of you nutcases. lol

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Reply #19 posted 12/11/12 9:29am

MickyDolenz

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novabrkr said:

I'm pretty sure I got the biggest speakers on this thread.

But do you have the actual recording though? The sound on Youtube videos depends on the uploader and the source used to make it, and that video sounds thin.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #20 posted 12/11/12 9:41am

novabrkr

Okay then.

It's a kick drum sound flipped backwards in any case. I think it might sound bassier than it really is because most listeners are not used to hearing low frequences build up in that manner. I recognize the phenomenon from toying with sequencers and audio editors.

[Edited 12/11/12 9:42am]

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Reply #21 posted 12/11/12 10:05am

MickyDolenz

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novabrkr said:

Okay then.

It's a kick drum sound flipped backwards in any case. I think it might sound bassier than it really is because most listeners are not used to hearing low frequences build up in that manner. I recognize the phenomenon from toying with sequencers and audio editors.

[Edited 12/11/12 9:42am]

Also, the average person is not going to buy a bunch of 808's to bring out the "boom", so they are not going to notice the bass as much. There was a DJ named Magic Mike that released 'Miami bass' music, and even had warnings saying he's not responsible for speaker or hearing damage lol .

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #22 posted 12/11/12 10:32am

TD3

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novabrkr said:

I'm pretty sure I got the biggest speakers on this thread.

hmm

wink

lol

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Reply #23 posted 12/11/12 11:10am

bobzilla77

MickyDolenz said:

Technically, engineers have more to do with the sound quality of a record than the producer, unless the producer has done work as an engineer.

I think it's too complicated to make a general statement that one is more impoortant than the other. You need BOTH roles filled right for a good sounding record.

The engineer is the one who has to have the technical expertise to set the mics properly, choose the right ones etc to get a good sound to tape. But the producer is the ones making the decisions at the end of the day. The engineer can get a killer snare drum sound, and the producer can decide to smother it in effects during the mix.

I find a LOT of modern productions to be verging on unlistenable. Everything is really shrill and overloaded. Something is missing and it's not just the switch fron analog tape. The sound of shit is in style so everything gotta sound like shit or it's not modern enough for the radio.

But unfortunately even garage rockers working on the cheap are making lousier sounding records than they did in the 80s/90s. I think that's more because, everyone wants to do it themselves on their computer. That's great for making it cheap and convenient. But it used to be the case that if you recorded on multi-track, you had a professional running the boards, someone who had been to engineering school and had some knowledge about sound and its physical properties.

Those people are now considered too expensive for some productions. And undeniably, there are fewer of them in the world every day, and few are coming up to replace them, because it's so hard to make a living as an engineer.

IMO the best sounding records ever made are jazz records from the late fifties through the late sixties. Bob Thiele & Rudy Van Gelder productions - damn it sounds like you are in a room with four musicians spread out in front of you. And those albums were made in hours not months. If you know what you're doing, you don't need effects racks and banks of equalizers to get a good sound to tape. If you had a good sound happening in front of the mic all you had to do was turn the thing on and away we go.

Of course you also had musicians who understood sound and dynamics who were capable of playing under those conditions. And who knew who get their dicks hard all at the same time and get a keeper on the first take. That basic skill set is gone, not coming back.

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Reply #24 posted 12/11/12 12:20pm

MickyDolenz

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bobzilla77 said:

But it used to be the case that if you recorded on multi-track, you had a professional running the boards, someone who had been to engineering school and had some knowledge about sound and its physical properties.

Those people are now considered too expensive for some productions. And undeniably, there are fewer of them in the world every day, and few are coming up to replace them, because it's so hard to make a living as an engineer.

But if someone uses a beatmaker producer, they may not need a traditional engineer.

bobzilla77 said:

IMO the best sounding records ever made are jazz records from the late fifties through the late sixties. Bob Thiele & Rudy Van Gelder productions - damn it sounds like you are in a room with four musicians spread out in front of you. And those albums were made in hours not months. If you know what you're doing, you don't need effects racks and banks of equalizers to get a good sound to tape. If you had a good sound happening in front of the mic all you had to do was turn the thing on and away we go.

Of course you also had musicians who understood sound and dynamics who were capable of playing under those conditions. And who knew who get their dicks hard all at the same time and get a keeper on the first take. That basic skill set is gone, not coming back.

I remember reading that in the 1960's that Motown would mix songs to sound good on a transistor radio or an AM station on a car radio. I think effects were originally mostly used on children's records and comedy/novelty songs. It probably spread to mainstream acts with psychedelic music.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #25 posted 12/11/12 1:07pm

purplethunder3
121

avatar

JoeTyler said:

FUCK

just doin' some stuff before the end (change?) of the world as we know it (21st),

I'm burning some cds for the upcoming Xmas parties and DAMN!! it's amazing how GOOD funk/r&b/disco songs-albums of the 60s/70s/80s sound: a deep, rich, gargantuan sound that just commands the entire room, surrounding you, making your chest pump and your legs dance...

on the other hand, it's amazing how dull and thin pop, rock and similar genres sound (particularly post mid-70s pp/rock), the bass is nearly inaudible sometimes...I couldn't help but to tryin' to improve the songs, augmenting the bass and reducing that reverb shit...

that said, on a side note, it's amazing how GOOD Springsteen's albums of the 70s sound, damn! the early E Street sure was a funky, dirty band, a perfect drums/bass sound right there...

thoughts?

[Edited 12/10/12 15:19pm]

Couldn't agree more. Funny--I just had Darkness On The Edge Of Town on repeat this morning... biggrin

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #26 posted 12/11/12 2:15pm

NDRU

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It was the same in the 60's. The Beatles (specifically Paul) were complaining that the bass on Motown & Stax records were so much stronger. They recorded Paperback Writer and Rain with the bass high enough that the engineers were worried that it would make the needle skip. It didn't.

But that's also kind of a genre thing. It's called R&B, and it had better have bass!

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Reply #27 posted 12/11/12 2:24pm

LittleBLUECorv
ette

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novabrkr said:

I'm pretty sure I got the biggest speakers on this thread.

Naw, mine is pretty big.

PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #28 posted 12/11/12 3:02pm

purplethunder3
121

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LittleBLUECorvette said:

novabrkr said:

I'm pretty sure I got the biggest speakers on this thread.

Naw, mine is pretty big.

You haven't seen mine. hmph!

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #29 posted 12/11/12 3:37pm

Harlepolis

purplethunder3121 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Naw, mine is pretty big.

You haven't seen mine. hmph!

Scrambled egg mess, ALL of you lol

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