Inspired by Timmy & his R&B thread

The early roots of rap can be heard in James Brown, Sly Stone & many even say Bob Dylan.

The meaning of ‘’Rhythm and Poetry’’ is to tell a story through poetic words, and doing so with a good beat. The roots of rapping are found in African and African American music. The traditions of Signifyin’, the dozens and jazz poetry, as well as the Call and Response patterns of African religious ceremonies, were all big influences on rap music.

Comedians Rudy Ray Moore AKA Black Dynamite and Blowfly are also said to be huge influences.

Artists like Gill-Scott Heron and The Last Poets, who performed spoken-word poetry in New York City, are said to have been the first ‘’rappers’’.

The legendary DJ’s Kool Herc and Coke La Rock both provided some influence on the style, by rapping with delivery of simple poetry verses over funk music.

Surprisingly enough, some even consider Bob Dylan an influential figure in the early days of rap. Subterranean Homesick Blues is said to have an early impact on rap music, because of the sing-talk style of the song.

There was also the influence of disco as well, and the funk bass of Bootsy Collins and others.

Rappers Delight by Sugarhill Gang is credited as the first rap song in 1979, and other pioneers of that year include Lady B- The Beat Y’all. Then there was the introduction of synthesizers & Roland 808 machines.

So what do you guys & gals think are some of the roots of rap & hip-hop? And what songs originated it from the beginning?

The origins of rap itself are as confusing as R&B to historians.

I would say the origins of rap actually started with Joe Tex, who used to do spoken word recitations under a backbeat during songs (starting with his 1960 cover of "All I Could Do Was Cry", Tina Turner later covered this version during live Ike & Tina performances with her own spoken word but it wasn't really the same). Later on this style would be imitated by Isaac Hayes and Millie Jackson. James Brown bragged he was the "first rapper" and "Say It Loud" featured little vocalizing but he was beat to the punch by Joe Tex, who used the "rapping" style in hits like "Hold What You've Got". Millie Jackson got her "godmother of rap" title because she was using that style back in '71 (ironically enough she did a parody of a rap song with "I Had to Say It"; ironically there were some female rappers back in the late '70s and early '80s around the time she recorded it).

Hip-hop (I'm guessing the actual beats and style) might've started with the James Brown Band. Particularly Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks (later of the JB's) had a lot to do with it, but so did the Funk Brothers (Dennis Coffey's Scorpio), the Jimmy Castor Bunch (It's Just Begun), the Winston Brothers (Amen) and the Incredible Bongo Band (Apache). I mention these names because they contributed to a culture resonating with hip-hop (breakdancing). James' "Give It Up or Turnit a Loose" was cited by Kurtis Blow as "the breakdance anthem" (though I give that ode to Apache).

These records led to DJ Kool Herc to make what they later called "breakbeat" music and Herc would punctuate this music to include him developing the rhyming style of hip-hop shouting words to his audience such as "rock on my mellow!", "B-boys, b-girls, are you ready? keep on rock steady", "This is the joint! Herc beat on the point!" and things of that matter. This all occurred in the summer of 1973. Later on DJs like Afrika Bambattaa and Grandmaster Flash upped the ante by scratching the vinyl LPs to keep the breakbeat going and after this, people started to come up with words to match the beat. This led to creations of groups like the Furious 5 (Flash's group), the Treacherous 3 and the Cold Crush Brothers around '77, '78, '79.

The actual first "hip-hop/rap" song to make any charts was the Fatback Band's "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" and this style actually predated "Rapper's Delight" by a few months. Fatback Band was a NY band and they heard the hip-hop that was going on in the clubs they attended so they just simply brought that to the song.

[Edited 12/6/12 0:26am]

Timmy84 said:

The origins of rap itself are as confusing as R&B to historians.

I would say the origins of rap actually started with Joe Tex, who used to do spoken word recitations under a backbeat during songs (starting with his 1960 cover of "All I Could Do Was Cry", Tina Turner later covered this version during live Ike & Tina performances with her own spoken word but it wasn't really the same). Later on this style would be imitated by Isaac Hayes and Millie Jackson. James Brown bragged he was the "first rapper" and "Say It Loud" featured little vocalizing but he was beat to the punch by Joe Tex, who used the "rapping" style in hits like "Hold What You've Got". Millie Jackson got her "godmother of rap" title because she was using that style back in '71 (ironically enough she did a parody of a rap song with "I Had to Say It"; ironically there were some female rappers back in the late '70s and early '80s around the time she recorded it).

Hip-hop (I'm guessing the actual beats and style) might've started with the James Brown Band. Particularly Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks (later of the JB's) had a lot to do with it, but so did the Funk Brothers (Dennis Coffey's Scorpio), the Jimmy Castor Bunch (It's Just Begun), the Winston Brothers (Amen) and the Incredible Bongo Band (Apache). I mention these names because they contributed to a culture resonating with hip-hop (breakdancing). James' "Give It Up or Turnit a Loose" was cited by Kurtis Blow as "the breakdance anthem" (though I give that ode to Apache).

These records led to DJ Kool Herc to make what they later called "breakbeat" music and Herc would punctuate this music to include him developing the rhyming style of hip-hop shouting words to his audience such as "rock on my mellow!", "B-boys, b-girls, are you ready? keep on rock steady", "This is the joint! Herc beat on the point!" and things of that matter. This all occurred in the summer of 1973. Later on DJs like Afrika Bambattaa and Grandmaster Flash upped the ante by scratching the vinyl LPs to keep the breakbeat going and after this, people started to come up with words to match the beat. This led to creations of groups like the Furious 5 (Flash's group), the Treacherous 3 and the Cold Crush Brothers around '77, '78, '79.

The actual first "hip-hop/rap" song to make any charts was the Fatback Band's "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" and this style actually predated "Rapper's Delight" by a few months. Fatback Band was a NY band and they heard the hip-hop that was going on in the clubs they attended so they just simply brought that to the song.

[Edited 12/6/12 0:26am]

Would you agree with some people on the perception that Bob Dylan had a small role?

I guess i kind of get what they mean by the way he did certain songs like Subterranean Homesick Blues & It's Alright Ma(I'm Only Bleeding) could have possibly influenced it. Because those songs themselves have a ''sing-talk'' spoken word type thing going on.

I agree very much on Millie Jackson!, she is what i could for sure as the godmother of rap.

No, Bob Dylan was a folkster and I don't even think he was the first to do what he did when it came to those type of records. He might've taken a more Louis Jordan approach with the singing (think of Louis Jordan recording "Saturday Night Fish Fry" under a folk rock/urban blues vibe and you get "Subterreanean Homesick Blues" and "It's Alright Ma") but nah.

People sometimes credit Gil Scott Heron and the Lost Poets for providing the background of hip-hop but that's like saying Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf provided much of R&B and early rock and roll (and they didn't). Gil and the Poets were strictly spoken word and Gil himself was actually a jazz vocalist while the Poets were just screaming street lingo over African beats lol I cringe every time they refer to Gil as the "godfather of rap". Uh no he wasn't. But he was underrated for what he contributed to music (he had a good singing voice).

The critics have no idea what they're talking about. They claim Louis Jordan and Ray Charles also predated rap but many musicians "rapped" or simply "talked" over songs before, they didn't do what Joe Tex did but their raps weren't groundbreaking or nothing, it was common.

Joe's wasn't because he was more of a preacher giving sermons lol they also claim Bo Diddley's use of the dirty dozens in "Say Man" influenced hip-hop but if that was true, then blues artists like Kokomo Arnold, Louis Jordan (too) and Lightnin' Hopkins (whose own dirty dozens song was too dirty for airplay lol) also contributed to it and that's even more ridiculous.

[Edited 12/6/12 0:58am]

Timmy84 said:

No, Bob Dylan was a folkster and I don't even think he was the first to do what he did when it came to those type of records. He might've taken a more Louis Jordan approach with the singing (think of Louis Jordan recording "Saturday Night Fish Fry" under a folk rock/urban blues vibe and you get "Subterreanean Homesick Blues" and "It's Alright Ma") but nah. People sometimes credit Gil Scott Heron and the Lost Poets for providing the background of hip-hop but that's like saying Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf provided much of R&B and early rock and roll (and they didn't). Gil and the Poets were strictly spoken word and Gil himself was actually a jazz vocalist while the Poets were just screaming street lingo over African beats lol the critics have no idea what they're talking about. They claim Louis Jordan and Ray Charles also predated rap but many musicians "rapped" or simply "talked" over songs before, they didn't do what Joe Tex did but their raps weren't groundbreaking or nothing, it was common. Joe's wasn't because he was more of a preacher giving sermons lol they also claim Bo Diddley's use of the dirty dozens in "Say Man" influenced hip-hop but if that was true, then blues artists like Kokomo Arnold, Louis Jordan (too) and Lightnin' Hopkins (whose own dirty dozens song was too dirty for airplay lol) also contributed to it and that's even more ridiculous.

I always found Gill to be a big influence, but i think it was more on his... words then him being the first so called ''rapper''

His tales where stories that would later be told over & over again in Hip-Hop.

Ray & Louis i can say where defintley big, and just cause they happened to be sampled years later.

The Rudy Ray Moore confuses me a bit... is it cause Black Dynamite is refrences on dozens of rap lyrics?, or was it the way he did his comedy routines?

Gunsnhalen said:

Timmy84 said:

No, Bob Dylan was a folkster and I don't even think he was the first to do what he did when it came to those type of records. He might've taken a more Louis Jordan approach with the singing (think of Louis Jordan recording "Saturday Night Fish Fry" under a folk rock/urban blues vibe and you get "Subterreanean Homesick Blues" and "It's Alright Ma") but nah. People sometimes credit Gil Scott Heron and the Lost Poets for providing the background of hip-hop but that's like saying Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf provided much of R&B and early rock and roll (and they didn't). Gil and the Poets were strictly spoken word and Gil himself was actually a jazz vocalist while the Poets were just screaming street lingo over African beats lol the critics have no idea what they're talking about. They claim Louis Jordan and Ray Charles also predated rap but many musicians "rapped" or simply "talked" over songs before, they didn't do what Joe Tex did but their raps weren't groundbreaking or nothing, it was common. Joe's wasn't because he was more of a preacher giving sermons lol they also claim Bo Diddley's use of the dirty dozens in "Say Man" influenced hip-hop but if that was true, then blues artists like Kokomo Arnold, Louis Jordan (too) and Lightnin' Hopkins (whose own dirty dozens song was too dirty for airplay lol) also contributed to it and that's even more ridiculous.

I always found Gill to be a big influence, but i think it was more on his... words then him being the first so called ''rapper''

His tales where stories that would later be told over & over again in Hip-Hop.

Ray & Louis i can say where defintley big, and just cause they happened to be sampled years later.

The Rudy Ray Moore confuses me a bit... is it cause Black Dynamite is refrences on dozens of rap lyrics?, or was it the way he did his comedy routines?

It was the way he did his comedy routines. That's like saying LaWanda Page's stand-up comedy albums influenced hip-hop because of its samples and references lol

Gil and the Poets probably influenced political rap (and just that). But they couldn't rhyme as good as Melle Mel or Chuck D.

Timmy84 said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I always found Gill to be a big influence, but i think it was more on his... words then him being the first so called ''rapper''

His tales where stories that would later be told over & over again in Hip-Hop.

Ray & Louis i can say where defintley big, and just cause they happened to be sampled years later.

The Rudy Ray Moore confuses me a bit... is it cause Black Dynamite is refrences on dozens of rap lyrics?, or was it the way he did his comedy routines?

It was the way he did his comedy routines. That's like saying LaWanda Page's stand-up comedy albums influenced hip-hop because of its samples and references lol

Gil and the Poets probably influenced political rap (and just that). But they couldn't rhyme as good as Melle Mel or Chuck D.

That is cause Chuck is the greatest.. imo

Gunsnhalen said:

Timmy84 said:

It was the way he did his comedy routines. That's like saying LaWanda Page's stand-up comedy albums influenced hip-hop because of its samples and references lol

Gil and the Poets probably influenced political rap (and just that). But they couldn't rhyme as good as Melle Mel or Chuck D.

That is cause Chuck is the greatest.. imo

I've heard that what became known as rap was partly based on toasting and dancehall vocals from Jamaica and maybe the dubs on reggae records had some influence too. I think hip hop also had some Latino influence, especially with graffiti and breakdancing. This is considered the 1st Latino rap record, released in 1979.

You left out The Monkees' incredible influence on rap:

MickyDolenz said:

I've heard that what became known as rap was partly based on toasting and dancehall vocals from Jamaica and maybe the dubs on reggae records had some influence too. I think hip hop also had some Latino influence, especially with graffiti and breakdancing. This is considered the 1st Latino rap record, released in 1979.

Kool Herc actually came from Jamaica so that may have some truth.

I heard once that the origins of hip-hop come from African music that the slaves brought over to America. Although that could be called the basis for all "African-American music."

Gil-Scott Heron and The Last Poets were influential as well.

smoothcriminal12 said:

I heard once that the origins of hip-hop come from African music that the slaves brought over to America. Although that could be called the basis for all "African-American music."

That don't make sense to me. The origins happened HERE by BLACK AMERICANS lol

smoothcriminal12 said:

I heard once that the origins of hip-hop come from African music that the slaves brought over to America. Although that could be called the basis for all "African-American music."

Agree

This is true. Most of the origins and influence of alot of genres came from Africa.

RodeoSchro said:

You left out The Monkees' incredible influence on rap:

Well, Mary Mary has been sampled several times. Here's a couple of the more well known ones:

Although there are many proto-rap records in blues, soul, folk, and even country, I'm not sure they had any direct influence.

Timmy84 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I heard once that the origins of hip-hop come from African music that the slaves brought over to America. Although that could be called the basis for all "African-American music."

That don't make sense to me. The origins happened HERE by BLACK AMERICANS lol

I guess the logic is that we carried over our African traditions over here and it was passed down. lol

Timmy84 said:

The origins of rap itself are as confusing as R&B to historians.

I would say the origins of rap actually started with Joe Tex, who used to do spoken word recitations under a backbeat during songs (starting with his 1960 cover of "All I Could Do Was Cry", Tina Turner later covered this version during live Ike & Tina performances with her own spoken word but it wasn't really the same). Later on this style would be imitated by Isaac Hayes and Millie Jackson. James Brown bragged he was the "first rapper" and "Say It Loud" featured little vocalizing but he was beat to the punch by Joe Tex, who used the "rapping" style in hits like "Hold What You've Got". Millie Jackson got her "godmother of rap" title because she was using that style back in '71 (ironically enough she did a parody of a rap song with "I Had to Say It"; ironically there were some female rappers back in the late '70s and early '80s around the time she recorded it).

Hip-hop (I'm guessing the actual beats and style) might've started with the James Brown Band. Particularly Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks (later of the JB's) had a lot to do with it, but so did the Funk Brothers (Dennis Coffey's Scorpio), the Jimmy Castor Bunch (It's Just Begun), the Winston Brothers (Amen) and the Incredible Bongo Band (Apache). I mention these names because they contributed to a culture resonating with hip-hop (breakdancing). James' "Give It Up or Turnit a Loose" was cited by Kurtis Blow as "the breakdance anthem" (though I give that ode to Apache).

These records led to DJ Kool Herc to make what they later called "breakbeat" music and Herc would punctuate this music to include him developing the rhyming style of hip-hop shouting words to his audience such as "rock on my mellow!", "B-boys, b-girls, are you ready? keep on rock steady", "This is the joint! Herc beat on the point!" and things of that matter. This all occurred in the summer of 1973. Later on DJs like Afrika Bambattaa and Grandmaster Flash upped the ante by scratching the vinyl LPs to keep the breakbeat going and after this, people started to come up with words to match the beat. This led to creations of groups like the Furious 5 (Flash's group), the Treacherous 3 and the Cold Crush Brothers around '77, '78, '79.

The actual first "hip-hop/rap" song to make any charts was the Fatback Band's "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" and this style actually predated "Rapper's Delight" by a few months. Fatback Band was a NY band and they heard the hip-hop that was going on in the clubs they attended so they just simply brought that to the song.

[Edited 12/6/12 0:26am]

To me, your bolded part is how I remember the beginnings of the Hip Hop as we know it. Prior to Kool Herc's day, there were ingredients scattered. But as I recall, disco records, funk, and JB records all seemed to provide the foundation to build on.

Sidenote: The first beat I learned on drums was Clyde Stubblefield's part on "Funky Drummer"

[Edited 12/6/12 9:12am]

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

That don't make sense to me. The origins happened HERE by BLACK AMERICANS lol

I guess the logic is that we carried over our African traditions over here and it was passed down. lol

African dances? Yeah. Drumbeats? Yeah. Street lingo? LOL yeah it's logic, but the tradition was always in the music. But in the US, we turned something dismissed by many (especially in the black community) as noise and turned it into music (rap/hip-hop). But hell you can say R&B and jazz were black American traditions. African music had its own uniqueness to it. The African part we add were the bongos and congas and other percussive instruments. I'm of the opinion that the spirituals were from here, jazz was from here, blues was from here and gospel was from here (whether people believe that or not). I can understand why some would say it "all came from Africa" or "the Motherland" as some love to call it (I cringe at that name too lmao) but if you really think about it, it really didn't. Some jazz artists did add some African stuff to their thing and same in some funk records like I mentioned.

If anything, black people in America were really the ones that made it a tradition. But the dancing and drumming, yeah you can say, we got that from Africa. But if we can argue about Africa, mention the location. Because it was mainly in places like Cameroon where music was really ingrained at. I'm sure it spread to West and East Africa too. North Africa, though, had a lot of music that was far different from the congas and singing that came from the regions in West and East Africa (I don't know about South Africa in those days though).

Everything we know about black American music was created here in the U.S.

[Edited 12/6/12 9:17am]

Musicslave said:

Timmy84 said:

The origins of rap itself are as confusing as R&B to historians.

I would say the origins of rap actually started with Joe Tex, who used to do spoken word recitations under a backbeat during songs (starting with his 1960 cover of "All I Could Do Was Cry", Tina Turner later covered this version during live Ike & Tina performances with her own spoken word but it wasn't really the same). Later on this style would be imitated by Isaac Hayes and Millie Jackson. James Brown bragged he was the "first rapper" and "Say It Loud" featured little vocalizing but he was beat to the punch by Joe Tex, who used the "rapping" style in hits like "Hold What You've Got". Millie Jackson got her "godmother of rap" title because she was using that style back in '71 (ironically enough she did a parody of a rap song with "I Had to Say It"; ironically there were some female rappers back in the late '70s and early '80s around the time she recorded it).

Hip-hop (I'm guessing the actual beats and style) might've started with the James Brown Band. Particularly Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks (later of the JB's) had a lot to do with it, but so did the Funk Brothers (Dennis Coffey's Scorpio), the Jimmy Castor Bunch (It's Just Begun), the Winston Brothers (Amen) and the Incredible Bongo Band (Apache). I mention these names because they contributed to a culture resonating with hip-hop (breakdancing). James' "Give It Up or Turnit a Loose" was cited by Kurtis Blow as "the breakdance anthem" (though I give that ode to Apache).

These records led to DJ Kool Herc to make what they later called "breakbeat" music and Herc would punctuate this music to include him developing the rhyming style of hip-hop shouting words to his audience such as "rock on my mellow!", "B-boys, b-girls, are you ready? keep on rock steady", "This is the joint! Herc beat on the point!" and things of that matter. This all occurred in the summer of 1973. Later on DJs like Afrika Bambattaa and Grandmaster Flash upped the ante by scratching the vinyl LPs to keep the breakbeat going and after this, people started to come up with words to match the beat. This led to creations of groups like the Furious 5 (Flash's group), the Treacherous 3 and the Cold Crush Brothers around '77, '78, '79.

The actual first "hip-hop/rap" song to make any charts was the Fatback Band's "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" and this style actually predated "Rapper's Delight" by a few months. Fatback Band was a NY band and they heard the hip-hop that was going on in the clubs they attended so they just simply brought that to the song.

[Edited 12/6/12 0:26am]

To me, your bolded part is how I remember the beginnings of the Hip Hop as we know it. Prior to Kool Herc's day, there were ingredients scattered. But as I recall, disco records, funk, and JB records all seemed to provide the foundation to build on.

Sidenote: The first beat I learned on drums was Clyde Stubblefield's part on "Funky Drummer"

[Edited 12/6/12 9:12am]

Yep. Once the drum beats settled "on the one" as James would say, younger people took those beats and made music out of it. That was innovative and so American (to me). Nothing to do with Africa (as far as I'm concerned). Like Smokey said, it's a Black American thing.

Cab Calloway way way back in the day.

Graycap23 said:

Cab Calloway way way back in the day.

Ha, then Louis Jordan was too lol

Timmy84 said:

Graycap23 said:

Cab Calloway way way back in the day.

Ha, then Louis Jordan was too lol

Yep.

Graycap23 said:

Timmy84 said:

Ha, then Louis Jordan was too lol

Yep.

But "rapping" was a common thing in jazz and big band music.

Timmy84 said:

Graycap23 said:

Yep.

But "rapping" was a common thing in jazz and big band music.

Yep, they called it riffing

Louis Armesrong had a song where he did his riffing, and later took it to a call & responce direction with his band.

The song's title escapes me at the moment.

Aaaalsooooooo,,,,

Harlepolis said:

Timmy84 said:

But "rapping" was a common thing in jazz and big band music.

Yep, they called it riffing

Louis Armesrong had a song where he did his riffing, and later took it to a call & responce direction with his band.

The song's title escapes me at the moment.

I think I know what song you're talking about but I'll look it up. Pigmeat's a good pick.

Timmy84 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I guess the logic is that we carried over our African traditions over here and it was passed down. lol

African dances? Yeah. Drumbeats? Yeah. Street lingo? LOL yeah it's logic, but the tradition was always in the music. But in the US, we turned something dismissed by many (especially in the black community) as noise and turned it into music (rap/hip-hop). But hell you can say R&B and jazz were black American traditions. African music had its own uniqueness to it. The African part we add were the bongos and congas and other percussive instruments. I'm of the opinion that the spirituals were from here, jazz was from here, blues was from here and gospel was from here (whether people believe that or not). I can understand why some would say it "all came from Africa" or "the Motherland" as some love to call it (I cringe at that name too lmao) but if you really think about it, it really didn't. Some jazz artists did add some African stuff to their thing and same in some funk records like I mentioned.

If anything, black people in America were really the ones that made it a tradition. But the dancing and drumming, yeah you can say, we got that from Africa. But if we can argue about Africa, mention the location. Because it was mainly in places like Cameroon where music was really ingrained at. I'm sure it spread to West and East Africa too. North Africa, though, had a lot of music that was far different from the congas and singing that came from the regions in West and East Africa (I don't know about South Africa in those days though).

Everything we know about black American music was created here in the U.S.

[Edited 12/6/12 9:17am]

Black music, to me, is the wonderful marriage of European and African music styles. I agree that the "Motherland" () played a big part in influencing black music, but I feel like people downplay the influence of European music significantly.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

African dances? Yeah. Drumbeats? Yeah. Street lingo? LOL yeah it's logic, but the tradition was always in the music. But in the US, we turned something dismissed by many (especially in the black community) as noise and turned it into music (rap/hip-hop). But hell you can say R&B and jazz were black American traditions. African music had its own uniqueness to it. The African part we add were the bongos and congas and other percussive instruments. I'm of the opinion that the spirituals were from here, jazz was from here, blues was from here and gospel was from here (whether people believe that or not). I can understand why some would say it "all came from Africa" or "the Motherland" as some love to call it (I cringe at that name too lmao) but if you really think about it, it really didn't. Some jazz artists did add some African stuff to their thing and same in some funk records like I mentioned.

If anything, black people in America were really the ones that made it a tradition. But the dancing and drumming, yeah you can say, we got that from Africa. But if we can argue about Africa, mention the location. Because it was mainly in places like Cameroon where music was really ingrained at. I'm sure it spread to West and East Africa too. North Africa, though, had a lot of music that was far different from the congas and singing that came from the regions in West and East Africa (I don't know about South Africa in those days though).

Everything we know about black American music was created here in the U.S.

[Edited 12/6/12 9:17am]

Black music, to me, is the wonderful marriage of European and African music styles. I agree that the "Motherland" () played a big part in influencing black music, but I feel like people downplay the influence of European music significantly.

Exactly. That's why music is so rich and why our music was and is so rich because of the mixing of so many styles.