Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

I'd say mid-late 40s is the basis for both early RnB and rock, as we know it. Def post WW 2 for my money. Personally I associate these genres w/ the emergence of the electric guitar. While it's true that both jazz and country were early adopters of this instrument, I associate it most strongly w/ (early) RnB and rock. (Later RnB became much more bass heavy in the 60s- beyond, so I'm talking a diff animal here ...much of what was considered RnB 50+ years ago might sound like full on blues or rock to modern ears.)

Much of what came before was what Muddy Waters referred to as "country blues" which is the basis for RnB IMHO....which was just electrified, faster paced, and w/ a more urban feel.

One of the great ironies is that the Stones are one of the last trad RnB groups still rockin'.

Muddy Waters wasn't really R&B lol he was straight up blues, just urban with a country flavor (like most of the urban blues artists were). I guess urban blues was a response to the younger R&B sound but Muddy Waters would've probably shook his head if you referred to him as R&B. R&B had a LOT of saxophones and pianos in it when it started. But I guess one of the early R&B/rock hits that had a guitar leading was Stick McGhee's "Drinkin' Wine".

I've always liked Muddy's description of what he did as "country blues" because it accurately described and contrasts well to what he was doing vs other folks. He knew fully well that there was a distinct diff between what he and other (usually older rural cats) were doing vs younger (usually more urban) dudes like Chuck or Bo. LOL Timmy, I'd never refer to Muddy as RnB...no way. What he and say Chuck Berry did was starting from the same road but ending up in two very diff places, IMHO.

I never said that the electric guitar dominated early RnB, but I def consider it essential to its rise (along w/ rock). The sound was grittier and more aggressive than the unplugged guitar and it gave it that edge which helped distinguish it from its more rural origins. I dig this early RnB and rock percisely because the guitar doesn't dominate the sound, but shares the stage w/ the sax, standing bass, and many times the piano. You have folks like Lil Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Fats Domino killin' it on piano, yet the electric guitar IMHO really took their sounds into the moden era of being something diff to the current blues or jazz.

I'll admit to being undecided as to how and how much jazz influenced RnB's emergence, but I'm quite certain of the role of the electric guitar in the mix.

mjscarousal said:

rialb said:

Does R & B even exist? Isn't it just a term used to describe "black" music?

It is a term used to describe music being done by black artists and no it does not exist.

So what if it's done by White artists...does it exist then? Even back then, not all music being done by Black artists was described as RnB. Jazz and blues both existed then as did country, yet this particular form of music didn't neatly fit any of those categories hence the new term RnB (also rockabilly for more country favored versions). The artists themselves knew that they were going for diff things and used the terms themselves to distinguish what they were doing vs the other guy.

Yes the genre existed, tho it's somewhat arguable if it does these days. It has dramatically changed in it's sound from its origins, but it was def real and quite different from the genres from which it emerged IMHO.

brooksie said:

So what if it's done by White artists...does it exist then?

No, that's called "blue eyed soul".

rialb said:

Does R & B even exist? Isn't it just a term used to describe "black" music?

Nowadays. Back then, though, it wasn't. Though admittedly between the 1910's and 1950, it was described aptly as "race music". Around 1949, Jerry Wexler coined it as R&B but the genre itself had been fully formed just two, three years earlier. Everything preceding that had either been ragtime, jazz, blues, jump blues and swing. The Billboard charts itself concerning black music named it different things:

From October 1942 until February 1945, it was called the Harlem Hit Parade.

From February 1945 until June 1949, it was Race Records.

It became the Rhythm and Blues Records by June 1949. And they had three other R&B charts (Best Seller's, Jukebox and Jockey's).

They shortened it to R&B starting in 1958. (Hot R&B Sides).

It stopped in November 1963 due to the increase in crossover success for black artists (mainly Motown acts).

It was brought back in January 1965 (due to the British Invasion) as the Hot Rhythm and Blues Singles.

It changed to Best Selling Soul Singles (soul now being more successful than rock'n'roll) in August 1969 and stayed that way until July of 1973.

From July 1973 until June 1982, it became the Hot Soul Singles.

Starting from June 1982 until October 1990, it became the Hot Black Singles (this was right around the time that R&B really started to not mean the actual genre but as a blanket form for black artists though it was always assumed that way anyways by the mainstream).

It changed back to R&B (Hot R&B Singles) from October 1990 to 1999.

From 1999 until 2005, it was Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles and Tracks (after the domination of hip-hop music on urban music).

The Tracks was deleted in 2005 and changed to Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs where it remains.

According to Billboard.biz, in 2009, the "Hot" was deleted there but not on the main chart.

Of course recently they created two R&B charts (Adult R&B and Hot R&B Songs) in the 2010's.

So it's had a varied history in the last 60 years.

MickyDolenz said:

brooksie said:

So what if it's done by White artists...does it exist then?

No, that's called "blue eyed soul".

I wouldn't even call it that because half of the artists who actually sing R&B music had brown eyes.

brooksie said:

mjscarousal said:

It is a term used to describe music being done by black artists and no it does not exist.

So what if it's done by White artists...does it exist then? Even back then, not all music being done by Black artists was described as RnB. Jazz and blues both existed then as did country, yet this particular form of music didn't neatly fit any of those categories hence the new term RnB (also rockabilly for more country favored versions). The artists themselves knew that they were going for diff things and used the terms themselves to distinguish what they were doing vs the other guy.

Yes the genre existed, tho it's somewhat arguable if it does these days. It has dramatically changed in it's sound from its origins, but it was def real and quite different from the genres from which it emerged IMHO.

That is what I meant.

I apologize I wasnt being clear, I was referencing how the term is used TODAY in TODAYS MUSIC INDUSTRY. It is not acknowledge as a musical genre but more so just pop black artists that get categorize as that.

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

Muddy Waters wasn't really R&B lol he was straight up blues, just urban with a country flavor (like most of the urban blues artists were). I guess urban blues was a response to the younger R&B sound but Muddy Waters would've probably shook his head if you referred to him as R&B. R&B had a LOT of saxophones and pianos in it when it started. But I guess one of the early R&B/rock hits that had a guitar leading was Stick McGhee's "Drinkin' Wine".

I've always liked Muddy's description of what he did as "country blues" because it accurately described and contrasts well to what he was doing vs other folks. He knew fully well that there was a distinct diff between what he and other (usually older rural cats) were doing vs younger (usually more urban) dudes like Chuck or Bo. LOL Timmy, I'd never refer to Muddy as RnB...no way. What he and say Chuck Berry did was starting from the same road but ending up in two very diff places, IMHO.

I never said that the electric guitar dominated early RnB, but I def consider it essential to its rise (along w/ rock). The sound was grittier and more aggressive than the unplugged guitar and it gave it that edge which helped distinguish it from its more rural origins. I dig this early RnB and rock percisely because the guitar doesn't dominate the sound, but shares the stage w/ the sax, standing bass, and many times the piano. You have folks like Lil Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Fats Domino killin' it on piano, yet the electric guitar IMHO really took their sounds into the moden era of being something diff to the current blues or jazz.

I'll admit to being undecided as to how and how much jazz influenced RnB's emergence, but I'm quite certain of the role of the electric guitar in the mix.

I got you. I think Hank Ballard and the Midnighters were really the ones that eventually included electric guitar in R&B recordings. I could be wrong though.

mjscarousal said:

brooksie said:

So what if it's done by White artists...does it exist then? Even back then, not all music being done by Black artists was described as RnB. Jazz and blues both existed then as did country, yet this particular form of music didn't neatly fit any of those categories hence the new term RnB (also rockabilly for more country favored versions). The artists themselves knew that they were going for diff things and used the terms themselves to distinguish what they were doing vs the other guy.

Yes the genre existed, tho it's somewhat arguable if it does these days. It has dramatically changed in it's sound from its origins, but it was def real and quite different from the genres from which it emerged IMHO.

That is what I meant.

I apologize I wasnt being clear, I was referencing how the term is used TODAY in TODAYS MUSIC INDUSTRY. It is not acknowledge as a musical genre but more so just pop black artists that get categorize as that.

That's how it's always been. The R&B Charts were called The Black Charts until 1992 I think.

Think about it like this, if Jazmine Sullivan had recorded the exact same album as Adele's 21, there's no doubt in my mind that Jazmine would have won all the big R&B Grammys, NOT the pop ones. And it probably wouldn't have sold as much as it did, because a white girl singing soul is "exotic" in that it's not really expected. Black people are kind of expected to have "big" voices.

I don't agree with that assertion, but hey it's the world we live in.

Terrib3Towel said:

mjscarousal said:

That is what I meant.

I apologize I wasnt being clear, I was referencing how the term is used TODAY in TODAYS MUSIC INDUSTRY. It is not acknowledge as a musical genre but more so just pop black artists that get categorize as that.

That's how it's always been. The R&B Charts were called The Black Charts until 1992 I think.

Think about it like this, if Jazmine Sullivan had recorded the exact same album as Adele's 21, there's no doubt in my mind that Jazmine would have won all the big R&B Grammys, NOT the pop ones. And it probably wouldn't have sold as much as it did, because a white girl singing soul is "exotic" in that it's not really expected. Black people are kind of expected to have "big" voices.

I don't agree with that assertion, but hey it's the world we live in.

And that's how it's gonna be... either deal with it or just enjoy Jazmine without bitching about who else gets the shine, you know? I appreciate both sides.

Timmy84 said:

Terrib3Towel said:

That's how it's always been. The R&B Charts were called The Black Charts until 1992 I think.

Think about it like this, if Jazmine Sullivan had recorded the exact same album as Adele's 21, there's no doubt in my mind that Jazmine would have won all the big R&B Grammys, NOT the pop ones. And it probably wouldn't have sold as much as it did, because a white girl singing soul is "exotic" in that it's not really expected. Black people are kind of expected to have "big" voices.

I don't agree with that assertion, but hey it's the world we live in.

And that's how it's gonna be... either deal with it or just enjoy Jazmine without bitching about who else gets the shine, you know? I appreciate both sides.

Terrib3Towel said:

mjscarousal said:

That is what I meant.

I apologize I wasnt being clear, I was referencing how the term is used TODAY in TODAYS MUSIC INDUSTRY. It is not acknowledge as a musical genre but more so just pop black artists that get categorize as that.

That's how it's always been. The R&B Charts were called The Black Charts until 1992 I think.

Think about it like this, if Jazmine Sullivan had recorded the exact same album as Adele's 21, there's no doubt in my mind that Jazmine would have won all the big R&B Grammys, NOT the pop ones. And it probably wouldn't have sold as much as it did, because a white girl singing soul is "exotic" in that it's not really expected. Black people are kind of expected to have "big" voices.

I don't agree with that assertion, but hey it's the world we live in.

I disagree with that. I think the black artists in the past that for the most part won R&B nods exactly made R&B music unlike today's black pop artists who dont but are labeled as that, that was just my only point. I am not sure if that was what you were referring to

Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, etc won R&B nods and they were popular acts of their time but in those categories they exactly constructed R&B songs (in most cases than compared to now)

I think were talking about two different things

[Edited 12/6/12 15:51pm]

Yeah..we were.

Newayz, back on topic...