Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Pop is negative to people now so most don't want to claim it. I'm happy Michael didn't cared and just did whatever he wanted to do musically.

Michael kept hearing "sell-out" all his career but he kept on moving lol

Yeah Michael sure was selling out albums and selling out arenas I'm glad he was like Fuck it.

[Edited 11/30/12 17:00pm]

Dick Griffey bragged about how Shalamar got on MTV due to "A Night to Remember" and this was allegedly before CBS presented "Billie Jean" to record execs.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Michael kept hearing "sell-out" all his career but he kept on moving lol

Yeah Michael sure was selling out albums and selling out areans I'm glad he was like Fuck it.

Exactly. The bigger the better.

Timmy84 said:

Dick Griffey bragged about how Shalamar got on MTV due to "A Night to Remember" and this was allegedly before CBS presented "Billie Jean" to record execs.

I love Shalamar and they was "pop&B" as well. lol

SoulAlive said:

mjscarousal said:

MJ was playing on MTV long before Prince.

I have a book on MTV and they clearly point out that "Pass The Dutchie" by Musical Youth was the first black video on their channel it began airing in late 1982,several weeks before '1999' and 'Thriller' were even released.

I know I was messing with Gray,

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Dick Griffey bragged about how Shalamar got on MTV due to "A Night to Remember" and this was allegedly before CBS presented "Billie Jean" to record execs.

I love Shalamar and they was "pop&B" as well. lol

Their music included new wave stuff too lol

silverchild said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Jacksons' Triumph album didn't get a lot of pop radio attention, even though it came out after Off The Wall, but it was popular with the R&B audience. I think The Jacksons as a group were more considered R&B and not pop. I remember hearing Body and The Hurt from Victory a lot on the R&B station, but not on the pop one, where they just played State Of Shock. Technically "pop" is short for "popular music". Because there is not much in common in the music of Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Elvis Presley, KC & The Sunshine Band, Run DMC, Madonna, Kenny Rogers, Styx, ect, but they were all the "pop stars" of their day.

I agree. The Jacksons were definitely more rooted in the R&B side of things.

very true.......

this shows a fundamental truth

Pop is not a definable form of music, it has no roots of creation

every other genre of music can be traced back to its origin and what factors brought it to life, which is shaped by culture

R&B, Rock n Roll (which originally was definined as rhythm and blues), country, funk, soul, jazz, blues, gospel, hickabilly, ragtime.....they all can be traced back to its origin

Pop is the only "genre" that shares no origin, because it's not a form of music, it's a level of distinction determined by the establishment

Pop music incorporates what has already been shaped, nurtured, and crafted some 10 years before the fact

we can go down the line

Pop started to incorporate embrace rock n roll 10 years after its inception during the 50s

same thing with the soul music of the 60s as Pop incorporated it during the beginning years of the 1970s

even hard rock that began to take shape during the late 60s didn't receive support from pop radio until years later

after the market became saturated w/Disco, top 40 radio responded by segregating its airwaves, a threshold Michael Jackson found lurking after he unleased OFF THE WALL

same thing with Hip-Hop, crafted in the 70s, pop radio wouldn't touch it until 1986

Michael Jackson took black authenticity (which shaped his talent, his dance, and his song), an entire career built on those elements, and after reaching the pinnacle of his career with THRILLER (where all of his releases would receive initial support from urban radio, including Beat It even as Epic was looking to target his songs to pop radio first and foremost), and used that foundation to prepare himself for full scale pop distinction

[Edited 11/30/12 17:10pm]

Timmy84 said:

And also Motown didn't just cater to the R&B audience. Berry Gordy was like "this is the Sound of Young America, not Black America". People called Motown "polished soul" trying to insult but they actually were right about Motown. Berry Gordy was one of the first to say, "no this won't cater to just blacks or cater to just whites, this will cater to everyone." Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder were graduate students in learning this. Berry wanted his artists to be popular, i.e., pop artists. Michael Jackson was already a pop legend when he friggin' did "A-B-C, as easy as 1-2-3..." "Mainly R&B" my ass.

Although Stax had some crossover (ie. Sam & Dave), it wasn't to to the same extent as Motown. Other R&B/soul labels like Checker, Nashboro, Backbeat, Sound Stage 7, Malaco, and others had little if any Top 40 attention and some only had regional success at best like in the south or Chicago area. Some were called "jukebox hits". Even Motown tended to put the acts that were less likely to crossover on one of their alternate labels like VIP and Soul and not on the main one.

I still wonder why they cut parts of Lady off the last bit of the album, was it going over the time limit to what Quincy wanted for the album's length? I was bothered by that.

Timmy84 said:

I still wonder why they cut parts of Lady off the last bit of the album, was it going over the time limit to what Quincy wanted for the album's length? I was bothered by that.

I think they both (MJ and Q) thought the songs were too long. I think The Lady In My Life is perfect as it was released - although it's nice to hear the extra verse.

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

I love Shalamar and they was "pop&B" as well. lol

Their music included new wave stuff too lol

Especially towards the end. lol

mynameisnotsusan said:

Timmy84 said:

I still wonder why they cut parts of Lady off the last bit of the album, was it going over the time limit to what Quincy wanted for the album's length? I was bothered by that.

I think they both (MJ and Q) thought the songs were too long. I think The Lady In My Life is perfect as it was released - although it's nice to hear the extra verse.

True. I think they thought "too much going on, let's take out some verses". Remember, Quincy and Michael did come to an agreement to shorten "Billie Jean" so it wasn't like Quincy eliminated anything huge in it. Just the lengthy parts where he felt it was going on too long.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

And also Motown didn't just cater to the R&B audience. Berry Gordy was like "this is the Sound of Young America, not Black America". People called Motown "polished soul" trying to insult but they actually were right about Motown. Berry Gordy was one of the first to say, "no this won't cater to just blacks or cater to just whites, this will cater to everyone." Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder were graduate students in learning this. Berry wanted his artists to be popular, i.e., pop artists. Michael Jackson was already a pop legend when he friggin' did "A-B-C, as easy as 1-2-3..." "Mainly R&B" my ass.

Although Stax had some crossover (ie. Sam & Dave), it wasn't to to the same extent as Motown. Other R&B/soul labels like Checker, Nashboro, Backbeat, Sound Stage 7, Malaco, and others had little if any Top 40 attention and some only had regional success at best like in the south or Chicago area. Some were called "jukebox hits". Even Motown tended to put the acts that were less likely to crossover on one of their alternate labels like VIP and Soul and not on the main one.

Yeah that's where the Spinners, Junior Walker, Gladys Knight and them found success mainly on the R&B charts.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Their music included new wave stuff too lol

Especially towards the end. lol

It was odd how Jody Watley decided to leave just as their music had moved beyond simply R&B/dance stuff though the music wasn't the real reason she left.

Timmy84 said:

I still wonder why they cut parts of Lady off the last bit of the album, was it going over the time limit to what Quincy wanted for the album's length? I was bothered by that.

This was pre CD days, and records couldn't hold much time. If you try to put over a certain amount of time on a record (maybe around 22 minutes a side), the sound quality decreases. If you bought a 12" inch single back then, since it might have only have one song on a side, it was often louder than the same song on an album. But the maxi singles were mixed differently to be played in clubs which usually had better quality equipment than the average person with a component set. The quality issue is why Billie Jean & Lady In My Life were edited. They could have kept them as they were, but it would have had to be released as a double album, which tended to not sell as well as a single, and they were talking about the music industry being in a slump at the time. Remember, Quincy & Mike said the first mix of Thriller was bad, as they mixed it to fit on one record.

[Edited 11/30/12 17:27pm]

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

I still wonder why they cut parts of Lady off the last bit of the album, was it going over the time limit to what Quincy wanted for the album's length? I was bothered by that.

This was pre CD days, and records couldn't hold much time. If you try to put over a certain amount of time on a record (maybe around 22 minutes a side), the sound quality decreases. If you bought a 12" inch single back then, since it might have only have one song on a side, it was often louder than the same song on an album. But the max isingles were mixed differently to be played in clubs which usually had better quality equipment than the average person with a component set. The quality issue is why Billie Jean & Lady In My Life were edited. They could have kept them as they were, but it would have had to be released as a double album, which tended to not sell as well as a single, and they were talking about the music industry being in a slump at the time. Remember, Quincy & Mike said the first mix of Thriller was bad, as they mixed it to fit on one record.

Ah I see. No wonder Michael finally agreed to cut parts from Billie Jean off. That might've been why it was cut when he heard the playback. I remember Michael was so upset with the record's playback that he ran out of the CBS office and cried only to be consoled by Quincy. When Quincy asked him what was wrong, he said "this album is gonna fail unless we redo it". I think it was right after, they recorded "Human Nature" and took off "Carousel".

I forgot, what was the original track listing for "Thriller" because I kept hearing that not only did Michael and Quincy redo the whole album but they also added songs that had been worked on but not included in the album?

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Especially towards the end. lol

It was odd how Jody Watley decided to leave just as their music had moved beyond simply R&B/dance stuff though the music wasn't the real reason she left.

Yes we know from those videos she posted And they had started to really crossover during that time too right?

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

It was odd how Jody Watley decided to leave just as their music had moved beyond simply R&B/dance stuff though the music wasn't the real reason she left.

Yes we know from those videos she posted And they had started to really crossover during that time too right?

Right. They had gone so far from the Solar sound, you think they were in another label! You could tell Prince and MJ musically influenced them.

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Yes we know from those videos she posted And they had started to really crossover during that time too right?

Right. They had gone so far from the Solar sound, you think they were in another label! You could tell Prince and MJ musically influenced them.

Oh without a doubt. It's probably why I like them so much. There was a good chance they would have gotten bigger if they stayed together.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Right. They had gone so far from the Solar sound, you think they were in another label! You could tell Prince and MJ musically influenced them.

Oh without a doubt. It's probably why I like them so much. There was a good chance they would have gotten bigger if they stayed together.

Exactly.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

This was pre CD days, and records couldn't hold much time. If you try to put over a certain amount of time on a record (maybe around 22 minutes a side), the sound quality decreases. If you bought a 12" inch single back then, since it might have only have one song on a side, it was often louder than the same song on an album. But the max isingles were mixed differently to be played in clubs which usually had better quality equipment than the average person with a component set. The quality issue is why Billie Jean & Lady In My Life were edited. They could have kept them as they were, but it would have had to be released as a double album, which tended to not sell as well as a single, and they were talking about the music industry being in a slump at the time. Remember, Quincy & Mike said the first mix of Thriller was bad, as they mixed it to fit on one record.

Ah I see. No wonder Michael finally agreed to cut parts from Billie Jean off. That might've been why it was cut when he heard the playback. I remember Michael was so upset with the record's playback that he ran out of the CBS office and cried only to be consoled by Quincy. When Quincy asked him what was wrong, he said "this album is gonna fail unless we redo it". I think it was right after, they recorded "Human Nature" and took off "Carousel".

I forgot, what was the original track listing for "Thriller" because I kept hearing that not only did Michael and Quincy redo the whole album but they also added songs that had been worked on but not included in the album?

On the original release of Stevie Wonder's Key Of Life album, he had so many songs that not only did it have 2 albums, but a 45 single with 4 other songs. As soon as the CD started to become popular in the late 80's, folks decided they had to fill up the 80 minutes, and started making all of these long albums, which would be the equivalent of a 2 record set. MJ's History was released as vinyl. It was a 2 CD set, but a 3 LP set.

I don't know what the original listing was, other than Human Nature replaced Carousel and the Starlight Sun song was changed to Thriller.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Ah I see. No wonder Michael finally agreed to cut parts from Billie Jean off. That might've been why it was cut when he heard the playback. I remember Michael was so upset with the record's playback that he ran out of the CBS office and cried only to be consoled by Quincy. When Quincy asked him what was wrong, he said "this album is gonna fail unless we redo it". I think it was right after, they recorded "Human Nature" and took off "Carousel".

I forgot, what was the original track listing for "Thriller" because I kept hearing that not only did Michael and Quincy redo the whole album but they also added songs that had been worked on but not included in the album?

On the original release of Stevie Wonder's Key Of Life album, he had so many songs that not only did it have 2 albums, but a 45 single with 4 other songs. As soon as the CD started to become popular in the late 80's, folks decided they had to fill up the 80 minutes, and started making all of these long albums, which would be the equivalent of a 2 record set. MJ's History was released as vinyl. It was a 2 CD set, but a 3 LP set.

I don't know what the original listing was, other than Human Nature replaced Carousel and the Starlight Sun song was changed to Thriller.

That's all I knew of it too but I heard Trouble was part of the set list too...

Behind the scene rare photos of making of legendary Thriller video

Great pics!

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

On the original release of Stevie Wonder's Key Of Life album, he had so many songs that not only did it have 2 albums, but a 45 single with 4 other songs. As soon as the CD started to become popular in the late 80's, folks decided they had to fill up the 80 minutes, and started making all of these long albums, which would be the equivalent of a 2 record set. MJ's History was released as vinyl. It was a 2 CD set, but a 3 LP set.

I don't know what the original listing was, other than Human Nature replaced Carousel and the Starlight Sun song was changed to Thriller.

That's all I knew of it too but I heard Trouble was part of the set list too...

I think the Thriller song might have been shortened too, because on the 2001 version, on one of the extra tracks, the Vincent Price rap had more lines. On the first issue of the Thriller album, some of the words on the lyric sheet for Billie Jean, Lady, & Thriller had what I later found out were the uncut versions of the songs, but at the time thought it was a misprint. The uncut Billie Jean was released as a maxi single and they used to play it on the radio.

I think Wanna Be was written for Off The Wall.

[Edited 11/30/12 18:12pm]

Azz said:

mjscarousal said:

This shut it down right here

Still get goosebumps looking at this

unreal talent

unequal talent, noncomparable talent, nonreachable talent, one of a kind talent, never again will see talent

God Bless you Michael, Love you! Happy Birthday Thriller Sucks we dont have pop music like this anymore

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

That's all I knew of it too but I heard Trouble was part of the set list too...

I think the Thriller song might have been shortened too, because on the 2001 version, on one of the extra tracks, the Vincent Price rap had more lines. On the first issue of the Thriller album, some of the words on the lyric sheet for Billie Jean, Lady, & Thriller had what I later found out were the uncut versions of the songs, but at the time thought it was a misprint. The uncut Billie Jean was released as a maxi single and they used to play it on the radio.

Good point. In fact, I think they cut Vincent's second verse when Michael's singing "I'm gonna thrill ya tonight..." before bringing him back up again. The lyric sheet definitely was unedited but the album itself was. Strange. Guess they didn't have time. I heard that CBS was actually proud with the original album and wanted to put it out but Michael said "no I'm not ready yet" and re-recorded everything in ONE day, which as it turned out was the final date of recording.

Thriller will always be special to me cause I came into the world when he peaked and it was the first MJ era I knew, sometime before the Bad era came around.

Anyways, pop music simply means popular music. The reason we have terms like contemporary pop is based on how we hear the sound each year or point in time, it means trendy for now. Whatever sounds popular right now will not sound the same as what is popular in a few years, the style of music at the forefront of mainstream changes like clothing styles. Michael is called king of pop not to water down his style, but because he encompassed many styles that have been popular and presented it musically and visually in a fashion he could call his own that transcended musical boudaries and generations, paving the way for other artists who had a similar vision or tried to match his thereafter.

alphastreet said:

Thriller will always be special to me cause I came into the world when he peaked and it was the first MJ era I knew, sometime before the Bad era came around.

Anyways, pop music simply means popular music. The reason we have terms like contemporary pop is based on how we hear the sound each year or point in time, it means trendy for now. Whatever sounds popular right now will not sound the same as what is popular in a few years, the style of music at the forefront of mainstream changes like clothing styles. Michael is called king of pop not to water down his style, but because he encompassed many styles that have been popular and presented it musically and visually in a fashion he could call his own that transcended musical boudaries and generations, paving the way for other artists who had a similar vision or tried to match his thereafter.

Nicely said!

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I think the Thriller song might have been shortened too, because on the 2001 version, on one of the extra tracks, the Vincent Price rap had more lines. On the first issue of the Thriller album, some of the words on the lyric sheet for Billie Jean, Lady, & Thriller had what I later found out were the uncut versions of the songs, but at the time thought it was a misprint. The uncut Billie Jean was released as a maxi single and they used to play it on the radio.

Good point. In fact, I think they cut Vincent's second verse when Michael's singing "I'm gonna thrill ya tonight..." before bringing him back up again. The lyric sheet definitely was unedited but the album itself was. Strange. Guess they didn't have time. I heard that CBS was actually proud with the original album and wanted to put it out but Michael said "no I'm not ready yet" and re-recorded everything in ONE day, which as it turned out was the final date of recording.

The album art was probably already printed and it costs a lot of money to just trash them, so Epic just used them and then changed it for later pressings.

I've heard that Say Say Say was actually recorded before The Girl Is Mine. I'm not sure about The Man.