Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

I already said that MJ was a perfectionist which implies that You dont have to correct me, Were saying the same things, I have only been trying to add to some points though.

lol alright but you surely wrote all of that "well he didn't need to do it" and I'm saying he felt he needed to...

I never said that

One of your previous posts you implied that Michael cared about sales alone... THAT IS TRUE but he ALSO strived to put time in the artistic quality of his albums. So its not like he just came out with albums just because he cared about sales. After Thriller, Michael strived to grow as an artist, songwriter and producer.

I love all his albums but

Thriller is not even my favorite album from him and I would not even rank it as his best album out of his catalogue.

LiLi1992 said:

solo and group: MJ has 17 songs number one in the pop chart and 19 in the R & B chart --------> Michael Jackson officially R & B artist!
.
in general (solo and as part of the group) MJ has released more R & B-oriented songs than pop. Although I still think that he had his style, it was a mix, so sometimes it is difficult to attribute many of his songs to a certain style.
I would not call him a pure pop artist in any period of his career, although he is King of pop.

Yeah...no. Beat It wasn't R&B.

As for him being "R&B oriented", well why didn't they call him the King of R&B then?

LiLi1992 said:

solo and group: MJ has 17 songs number one in the pop chart and 19 in the R & B chart --------> Michael Jackson officially R & B artist!
.
in general (solo and as part of the group) MJ has released more R & B-oriented songs than pop. Although I still think that he had his style, it was a mix, so sometimes it is difficult to attribute many of his songs to a certain style.
I would not call him a pure pop artist in any period of his career, although he is King of pop.

Me neither. He was a pop star but his music was eclectic. He experimented with a wide range of genres. Any real Michael Jackson fan knows this.

[Edited 11/30/12 16:09pm]

This shut it down right here

Still get goosebumps looking at this

Timmy84 said:

LiLi1992 said:

solo and group: MJ has 17 songs number one in the pop chart and 19 in the R & B chart --------> Michael Jackson officially R & B artist!
.
in general (solo and as part of the group) MJ has released more R & B-oriented songs than pop. Although I still think that he had his style, it was a mix, so sometimes it is difficult to attribute many of his songs to a certain style.
I would not call him a pure pop artist in any period of his career, although he is King of pop.

Yeah...no. Beat It wasn't R&B.

As for him being "R&B oriented", well why didn't they call him the King of R&B then?

Elizabeth Taylor may be incorrectly taught her speech?

Timmy84 said:

Technically I wouldn't call Michael an R&B artist at any point in his career. True he made R&B recordings but in his heart he was always a pop artist.

That's part of the reason why Mike, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston, etc could get constant Top 40 pop airplay. Look at Kool & The Gang. When they were doing jazzy style mostly instrumental music, they didn't get that much pop airplay. But when JT Taylor got in the group, they started to add a more pop style and they got a lot of airplay on pop radio and later MTV. Groups and singers that were more straight R&B or funk didn't get the same pop radio airplay, but were popular on R&B radio like Lakeside and Teddy Pendergrass.

LiLi1992 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah...no. Beat It wasn't R&B.

As for him being "R&B oriented", well why didn't they call him the King of R&B then?

Elizabeth Taylor may be incorrectly taught her speech?

I don't know... It's that after a while Michael wanted to be just referred to as King of Pop. Rock and Soul was omitted by 1991.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Technically I wouldn't call Michael an R&B artist at any point in his career. True he made R&B recordings but in his heart he was always a pop artist.

That's part of the reason why Mike, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston, etc could get constant Top 40 pop airplay. Look at Kool & The Gang. When they were doing jazzy style mostly instrumental music, they didn't get that much pop airplay. But when JT Taylor got in the group, they started to add a more pop style and they got a lot of airplay on pop radio and later MTV. Groups and singers that were more straight R&B or funk didn't get the same pop radio airplay, but were popular on R&B radio like Lakeside and Teddy Pendergrass.

Exactly. That has always been the norm. Michael was smart. He knew what sold. Motown, the label that first made him popular, knew what was needed to make an artist successful. That's why so many of its artists broke cultural barriers with their music. Even Marvin, who is probably considered the grittier of the artists that made Motown popular, was referred to as a pop artist after a while (the UK press often called Marvin a pop star prior to his death). If he was just an R&B artist, he would've just performed for the audience that was made for it. Pop meant you reached all people.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

lol alright but you surely wrote all of that "well he didn't need to do it" and I'm saying he felt he needed to...

I never said that

One of your previous posts you implied that Michael cared about sales alone... THAT IS TRUE but he ALSO strived to put time in the artistic quality of his albums. So its not like he just came out with albums just because he cared about sales. After Thriller, Michael strived to grow as an artist, songwriter and producer.

I love all his albums but

Thriller is not even my favorite album from him and I would not even rank it as his best album out of his catalogue.

lol and I never said he cared about sales alone. That was his main goal, that's all I said.

mjscarousal said:

This shut it down right here

Still get goosebumps looking at this

unreal talent

Just because your pop doesnt necessarily mean an artist cant do other genres Thats just like that whole ridiculous arguement with calling Stevie Wonder a POP artist, well yea he is popular but he has done other genres and enough of other genres to be given a different title. POP simply means catering to alot of people and yes there are some artists I would personally say fits that title and no other genres but artists like MJ, Stevie experimented with Rock, R&B, Folk, Jazz, Soul, Dutch etc so its absurd to just simply box them in as POP and not acknowledge the other genres they have done. You can cater to alot of people or be a pop star through other non popular subgenres as well i.g Funk, Jazz etc. MJ is the King of Pop only because his music reached alot of people but he experimented with a wide range of genres.

I don't hear people calling Stevie a pop artist?

There is nothing wrong with being Pop.

I remember when this album was first released.It was December 1982,a time when there was so much amazing music on the radio.I liked the album,but I had no idea that it would go on to become the biggest album of all time.Michaelmania of 1983 was unlike anything I had ever seen! It was insane This album had massive appeal and it crossed over like no other album did before it.And this is one of those albums that lasted forever!! It was released in late 1982 and seemingly stayed "hot" until about early 1984 (when everyone was trippin' off the "Thriller" video).It's interesting to note that,all the songs on this album except for two,were released as singles.And one of those ("The Lady In My Life") still received alot of radio airplay and became a Quiet Storm favorite.

We'll never see another "Thriller" in our lifetime.I can't imagine any current artist being able to do what Michael did and achieve those same heights.That's a once in a lifetime thing.

Azz said:

I don't hear people calling Stevie a pop artist?

In the past, people on this forum were arguing Stevie Wonder was a pop star so I just used that as an example to prove a point.

There is nothing wrong with artists who are POP but its a problem when people over generalize the term for an artist that experiments with many genres. Popularity doesnt necessarily make you a one genre artist. Now that is the case for some but for MJ that isnt the case. If someone wanted to call him a R&B star, a Rock star etc I could see that because he has made enough of those particular genres but in his case its far complicated because he has done so many subgenre type songs to just classify him as a one genre artist.

[Edited 11/30/12 16:37pm]

mjscarousal said:

Just because your pop doesnt necessarily mean an artist cant do other genres Thats just like that whole ridiculous arguement with calling Stevie Wonder a POP artist, well yea he is popular but he has done other genres and enough of other genres to be given a different title.

That's all I meant about Stevie when I said he was a pop artist. He wasn't just R&B so what are you blabbing on as if being pop is bad?

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

Just because your pop doesnt necessarily mean an artist cant do other genres Thats just like that whole ridiculous arguement with calling Stevie Wonder a POP artist, well yea he is popular but he has done other genres and enough of other genres to be given a different title.

That's all I meant about Stevie when I said he was a pop artist. He wasn't just R&B so what are you blabbing on as if being pop is bad?

I am not babbling about anything and NEVER insisted was pop bad in that postbut when other people insisted he was an R&B artist you implied he wasnt. I only argued that he could easily be called R&B as well because he has enough of that in his catalogue despite some pop songs. And that is not want you implied in that other thread.

[Edited 11/30/12 18:09pm]

Lemme ask you a question, carousel, if I can... do you know what you type sometimes? Because as much as you claim it's stupid to refer to someone as pop, at the same breath, you said pop covers all genres. That's what I was saying with Stevie, what I was saying with Michael. But you had to turn it around and say that I was dismissing them as just pop artists. As if being pop is a bad thing yet you were pretty much saying what I was saying. If you're gonna argue with anyone about pop or popular artist, then think about what you're saying. If you're considered an R&B artist, that means you only perform to that particular genre of listeners and have no hope of crossing over. That's why I say Michael wasn't an R&B artist and he proved that with Thriller. He was a crossover artist from the days of "I Want You Back". If he was simply R&B in the modern sense, he wouldn't have captivated the world as he did. He performed R&B, pop, rock, funk, dance, soul, etc., etc. That's what it means to be pop. That's why Michael Jackson is known as "the king of pop".

Timmy84 said:

Lemme ask you a question, carousel, if I can... do you know what you type sometimes? Because as much as you claim it's stupid to refer to someone as pop, at the same breath, you said pop covers all genres. That's what I was saying with Stevie, what I was saying with Michael. But you had to turn it around and say that I was dismissing them as just pop artists. As if being pop is a bad thing yet you were pretty much saying what I was saying. If you're gonna argue with anyone about pop or popular artist, then think about what you're saying. If you're considered an R&B artist, that means you only perform to that particular genre of listeners and have no hope of crossing over. That's why I say Michael wasn't an R&B artist and he proved that with Thriller. He was a crossover artist from the days of "I Want You Back". If he was simply R&B in the modern sense, he wouldn't have captivated the world as he did. He performed R&B, pop, rock, funk, dance, soul, etc., etc. That's what it means to be pop. That's why Michael Jackson is known as "the king of pop".

People seem to forget that Michael was 13 years into his career by the time Thriller came out. He had already crossovered.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

That's part of the reason why Mike, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston, etc could get constant Top 40 pop airplay. Look at Kool & The Gang. When they were doing jazzy style mostly instrumental music, they didn't get that much pop airplay. But when JT Taylor got in the group, they started to add a more pop style and they got a lot of airplay on pop radio and later MTV. Groups and singers that were more straight R&B or funk didn't get the same pop radio airplay, but were popular on R&B radio like Lakeside and Teddy Pendergrass.

Exactly. That has always been the norm. Michael was smart. He knew what sold. Motown, the label that first made him popular, knew what was needed to make an artist successful. That's why so many of its artists broke cultural barriers with their music. Even Marvin, who is probably considered the grittier of the artists that made Motown popular, was referred to as a pop artist after a while (the UK press often called Marvin a pop star prior to his death). If he was just an R&B artist, he would've just performed for the audience that was made for it. Pop meant you reached all people.

The Jacksons' Triumph album didn't get a lot of pop radio attention, even though it came out after Off The Wall, but it was popular with the R&B audience. I think The Jacksons as a group were more considered R&B and not pop. I remember hearing Body and The Hurt from Victory a lot on the R&B station, but not on the pop one, where they just played State Of Shock. Technically "pop" is short for "popular music". Because there is not much in common in the music of Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Elvis Presley, KC & The Sunshine Band, Run DMC, Madonna, Kenny Rogers, Styx, ect, but they were all the "pop stars" of their day.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Exactly. That has always been the norm. Michael was smart. He knew what sold. Motown, the label that first made him popular, knew what was needed to make an artist successful. That's why so many of its artists broke cultural barriers with their music. Even Marvin, who is probably considered the grittier of the artists that made Motown popular, was referred to as a pop artist after a while (the UK press often called Marvin a pop star prior to his death). If he was just an R&B artist, he would've just performed for the audience that was made for it. Pop meant you reached all people.

The Jacksons' Triumph album didn't get a lot of pop radio attention, even though it came out after Off The Wall, but it was popular with the R&B audience. I think The Jacksons as a group were more considered R&B and not pop. I remember hearing Body and The Hurt from Victory a lot on the R&B station, but not on the pop one, where they just played State Of Shock. Technically "pop" is short for "popular music". Because there is not much in common in the music of Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Elvis Presley, KC & The Sunshine Band, Run DMC, Madonna, Kenny Rogers, Styx, ect, but they were all the "pop stars" of their day.

I agree. The Jacksons were definitely more rooted in the R&B side of things.

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

Lemme ask you a question, carousel, if I can... do you know what you type sometimes? Because as much as you claim it's stupid to refer to someone as pop, at the same breath, you said pop covers all genres. That's what I was saying with Stevie, what I was saying with Michael. But you had to turn it around and say that I was dismissing them as just pop artists. As if being pop is a bad thing yet you were pretty much saying what I was saying. If you're gonna argue with anyone about pop or popular artist, then think about what you're saying. If you're considered an R&B artist, that means you only perform to that particular genre of listeners and have no hope of crossing over. That's why I say Michael wasn't an R&B artist and he proved that with Thriller. He was a crossover artist from the days of "I Want You Back". If he was simply R&B in the modern sense, he wouldn't have captivated the world as he did. He performed R&B, pop, rock, funk, dance, soul, etc., etc. That's what it means to be pop. That's why Michael Jackson is known as "the king of pop".

People seem to forget that Michael was 13 years into his career by the time Thriller came out. He had already crossovered.

And also Motown didn't just cater to the R&B audience. Berry Gordy was like "this is the Sound of Young America, not Black America". People called Motown "polished soul" trying to insult but they actually were right about Motown. Berry Gordy was one of the first to say, "no this won't cater to just blacks or cater to just whites, this will cater to everyone." Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder were graduate students in learning this. Berry wanted his artists to be popular, i.e., pop artists. Michael Jackson was already a pop legend when he friggin' did "A-B-C, as easy as 1-2-3..." "Mainly R&B" my ass.

[Edited 11/30/12 16:50pm]

silverchild said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Jacksons' Triumph album didn't get a lot of pop radio attention, even though it came out after Off The Wall, but it was popular with the R&B audience. I think The Jacksons as a group were more considered R&B and not pop. I remember hearing Body and The Hurt from Victory a lot on the R&B station, but not on the pop one, where they just played State Of Shock. Technically "pop" is short for "popular music". Because there is not much in common in the music of Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Elvis Presley, KC & The Sunshine Band, Run DMC, Madonna, Kenny Rogers, Styx, ect, but they were all the "pop stars" of their day.

I agree. The Jacksons were definitely more rooted in the R&B side of things.

Yeah the Jacksons when they left Motown became more R&B oriented. Michael singing "Find Me a Girl" and (before he left Motown, "All I Do Is Think of You") was definitely more R&B than say "I'll Be There". All of their albums before Victory were R&B albums. Off the Wall had a pop edge that Destiny didn't.

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

People seem to forget that Michael was 13 years into his career by the time Thriller came out. He had already crossovered.

And also Motown didn't just cater to the R&B audience. Berry Gordy was like "this is the Sound of Young America, not Black America". People called Motown "polished soul" trying to insult but they actually were right about Motown. Berry Gordy was one of the first to say, "no this won't cater to just blacks or cater to just whites, this will cater to everyone." Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder were graduate students in learning this. Berry wanted his artists to be popular, i.e., pop artists. Michael Jackson was already a pop legend when he friggin' did "A-B-C, as easy as 1-2-3..." R&B my ass.

Exactly. Mike's "true" R&B period was 1973-1981.

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

And also Motown didn't just cater to the R&B audience. Berry Gordy was like "this is the Sound of Young America, not Black America". People called Motown "polished soul" trying to insult but they actually were right about Motown. Berry Gordy was one of the first to say, "no this won't cater to just blacks or cater to just whites, this will cater to everyone." Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder were graduate students in learning this. Berry wanted his artists to be popular, i.e., pop artists. Michael Jackson was already a pop legend when he friggin' did "A-B-C, as easy as 1-2-3..." R&B my ass.

Exactly. Mike's "true" R&B period was 1973-1981.

And really his only period where he was "mainly R&B". After that, he was a pop artist. Pop meaning popular. Also pop meaning all genres. Also pop meaning GOOD. Being mainly R&B wasn't a bad thing, it just wasn't selling as big lol but just good enough to get by which if you're someone who obsesses about being big as Michael Jackson was not good at all.

Pop is negative to people now so most don't want to claim it. I'm happy Michael didn't cared and just did whatever he wanted to do musically.

babybugz said:

Pop is negative to people now so most don't want to claim it. I'm happy Michael didn't cared and just did whatever he wanted to do musically.

Michael kept hearing "sell-out" all his career but he kept on moving lol

mjscarousal said:

Graycap23 said:

Neither of which is "Thriller" related.

MJ was playing on MTV long before Prince.

I have a book on MTV and they clearly point out that "Pass The Dutchie" by Musical Youth was the first black video on their channel it began airing in late 1982,several weeks before '1999' and 'Thriller' were even released.

Timmy84 said:

Lemme ask you a question, carousel, if I can... do you know what you type sometimes? Because as much as you claim it's stupid to refer to someone as pop, at the same breath, you said pop covers all genres. That's what I was saying with Stevie, what I was saying with Michael. But you had to turn it around and say that I was dismissing them as just pop artists. As if being pop is a bad thing yet you were pretty much saying what I was saying. If you're gonna argue with anyone about pop or popular artist, then think about what you're saying. If you're considered an R&B artist, that means you only perform to that particular genre of listeners and have no hope of crossing over. That's why I say Michael wasn't an R&B artist and he proved that with Thriller. He was a crossover artist from the days of "I Want You Back". If he was simply R&B in the modern sense, he wouldn't have captivated the world as he did. He performed R&B, pop, rock, funk, dance, soul, etc., etc. That's what it means to be pop. That's why Michael Jackson is known as "the king of pop".

I never said pop covers all genres for ALL POP artists

because ALL POP artists do not experiment with MANY genres as MJ and Stevie Wonder did ... SOME do but not ALL. Each pop star and just in general every artist is different

I was speaking on those specific artists alone (MJ and Stevie Wonder) because those specific artists experimented with different genres. Thats not ALWAYS going to be the case for every pop artist, R&B artist etc. You can have a R&B artist that experiments with other genres they do not necessarily have to be pop stars. Hell, you can have a blues artists that does hip hop or experiment with rock so its not exclusively just pop artists who experiment with other genres.

I never implied POP was bad or at least wasnt try to but only suggested that those artists shouldnt just be boxed in as just one category because they have experimented with more than one genre. POP does not necessarily mean an artist that experiments with many genres because not all pop stars experiments with many genres.

Now the whole reason with why MJ is titled the KOP I already stated numerous of times again just simply argued that their genre classification can be debated because they did many genres and I dont think cross over appeal has anything to do with that especially if they started out as R&B to begin with but I understand your point.

ANY artists, R&B, Hip Hip, Blues, Jazz, can experiment with any other genre not just pop stars

Michael Jackson was a cross over artist that still had success and number one hits doing Dutch influenced songs and Rock influence songs.... the whole focus of my point did not necessarily just center around R&B but other genres that he could possibly be classified as instead of POP. I said I would not call him pop in the pure sense because he did many genres besides that but of course he is the KOP because of the mass appeal of his music despite that.