silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

True. Mike had alot to prove even after Off The Wall blew up. That story of Michael telling those blue collar execs over at Epic that he wanted his next LP to sell even more than OTW remains one of the record industry's most ah-ha moments.

Allegedly he told the same thing to Quincy Jones and Bruce Swedien and they all laugh at that suggestion saying it was impossible for them to top Off the Wall but MJ was dead serious. You can tell where Michael had a lot of input on Thriller. Starting with the title track. Originally they had the song as "Starlight" but Michael, according to Rod Temperton, was upset by the song saying it sucked and he wanted something "more monstrous" so Rod gave him the track that became "Thriller" (originally Midnight Man but Rod retitled it Thriller because he felt the title would "sell the album"). Michael, from what I heard, also didn't like the tracks he ended up recording as outtakes ("Nightline" was too pop, "She's Trouble" was too dull, "Carousel" was left out because Michael didn't want the album to be so R&B oriented or have more than three ballads/mid-tempos). Michael and Quincy loved Toto's Human Nature and Quincy hired former Carpenters songwriter John Bettis to write the rest of the lyrics. Michael liked Baby Be Mine and Lady in My Life. The latter because he felt it was the strongest ballad on the album, hence why he didn't think Carousel was necessary to be included. Michael wanted each record to be "anything you can play over and over again on the radio". I think WBSS should've been promoted more than it did imho, same with Human Nature (my all-time favorite MJ joint). PYT sold on the strength of the album as did Thriller via the music video. Epic didn't release the song itself as a single until January 1984.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

Michael enjoy touring, he just didnt like the harsh draining scheduling and conditions that came with it but he loved performing. He has said numerous of times he felt on home and more comfortable on stage than off of it. That is apart of who he. Saying he wanted to be a studio artist is a major exaggeration.

No he loved to perform. He hated touring.

rdhull said:

mjscarousal said:

Michael enjoy touring, he just didnt like the harsh draining scheduling and conditions that came with it but he loved performing. He has said numerous of times he felt on home and more comfortable on stage than off of it. That is apart of who he. Saying he wanted to be a studio artist is a major exaggeration.

Touring and performing are two different things. He did not like touring,

Michael HIMSELF stated his reasons as to why he did not like touring but also said he liked it mostly because he could see and connect with his fans.

mjscarousal said:

MickyDolenz said:

Sure it might be low budget and shot on videotape, but that wasn't the point. It's that there were some pre-MJ videos that had stories and not all just "stage performance" or "abstract". The scopitones had higher production values though.

I dont know what your getting at but I disagree.

I never said MJ invented music videos although he did help popularize them

however

He did innovate the short fim and "rehearsed" choregraphy in videos. I STRONGLY stand by that claim. Nothing you say can change that. You have yet to show a lengthy video, longer than 10 minutes that fuses, choregraphy, a movie/story plot and acting before videos like Beat It and Thriller. The budget has nothing to do with those components.

I only responded to what you said about earlier videos having nothing to do with the song, when some earlier ones did feature stories and Mike was not the first to do that. I didn't say that you said that Mike "invented" videos, and only used the Elvis thing as an analogy. Nor did I say that Mike didn't innovate videos or anything about dancing since that was not in your original comment.

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

Michael enjoy touring, he just didnt like the harsh draining scheduling and conditions that came with it but he loved performing. He has said numerous of times he felt on home and more comfortable on stage than off of it. That is apart of who he. Saying he wanted to be a studio artist is a major exaggeration.

No he loved to perform. He hated touring.

Yes but he ALSO stated he mostly enjoyed the connection with his fans, seeing the fans, meeting the fans when it came to tours.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

No he loved to perform. He hated touring.

Yes but he ALSO stated he mostly enjoyed the connection with his fans, seeing the fans, meeting the fans when it came to tours.

He hated touring.

Also it's been stated in the past that Michael had always wanted to create "the world's biggest-selling album". That was actually his goal in his adult career. He wanted something that would catch on with people so much everyone would buy it. He was ambitious, no doubt about it. He wanted all the exposure he could get and all the accolades, which is what caused him to do Thriller in the first place. He never fully recovered from the slight he felt he got due to the reaction from Off the Wall despite its big sales, it only got one Grammy win and two Grammy nods in total and no one interviewed him for magazine covers in US rock magazines because, Michael was told, R&B artists didn't sell magazine covers and he got all arrogant saying to his family, "alright, next album, I'll make sure they'll reach me for a cover and interview, maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't." Thriller wasn't even rumored to have done 100 million when in 1986, he told Quincy he wanted Bad to sell that much. The guy had an obsession with reaching the top. I think it consumed him until he died. Which is a harsh reality considering how easy it looked with Thriller.

rdhull said:

mjscarousal said:

Yes but he ALSO stated he mostly enjoyed the connection with his fans, seeing the fans, meeting the fans when it came to tours.

He hated touring.

Not disagreeing with that only added that he mostly enjoyed the fan interaction and loved that the most, his said this numerous of times. So although he did not like touring he did find enjoyment in the fan interaction to set that balance.

You imply he hated EVERYTHING about touring. Yes he did not like but he did LOVE meeting his fans and seeing them on tours.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:59pm]

Timmy84 said:

Also it's been stated in the past that Michael had always wanted to create "the world's biggest-selling album".

The problem was he kept on attempting to do that.

Michael enjoyed the tours? Lol!
During the filming of "Living with MJ":
camera is off: I hate tours
camera is on: I love tours
laughter-over ... Michael: What? you yourself asked me to say that I love tours.

MJ sometimes a little fib, it is not a secret.
----------------------------------

100 posts and 1000 views ...
Moderators are really nice today.

This type of threads stimulate activity here, as no others.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

No he loved to perform. He hated touring.

Yes but he ALSO stated he mostly enjoyed the connection with his fans, seeing the fans, meeting the fans when it came to tours.

That don't mean he liked to tour. The fans were the only reason he went along with the tours though it obviously drained him out... remember in 2003 when he in that Home Movies special he was telling his friends, "you know I hate touring" and then was told "just say it to make the fans happy" and he turned to the camera and said, "I love to tour" and kinda rolled his eyes and he and everyone around him laughed? Nah he hated touring. He didn't wanna do one with his brothers but Katherine talked him into it. Bad was given a tour because Sony wanted to expose Bad to the rest of the world so Michael obliged and since the Victory Tour was unable to go overseas, he kept the Victory tour set list until the tour hit America.

And after he made that comment he insisted that he loved seeing his fans and the fan interaction despite the conditions of touring geez .

Timmy84 said:

Also it's been stated in the past that Michael had always wanted to create "the world's biggest-selling album". That was actually his goal in his adult career. He wanted something that would catch on with people so much everyone would buy it. He was ambitious, no doubt about it. He wanted all the exposure he could get and all the accolades, which is what caused him to do Thriller in the first place. He never fully recovered from the slight he felt he got due to the reaction from Off the Wall despite its big sales, it only got one Grammy win and two Grammy nods in total and no one interviewed him for magazine covers in US rock magazines because, Michael was told, R&B artists didn't sell magazine covers and he got all arrogant saying to his family, "alright, next album, I'll make sure they'll reach me for a cover and interview, maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't." Thriller wasn't even rumored to have done 100 million when in 1986, he told Quincy he wanted Bad to sell that much. The guy had an obsession with reaching the top. I think it consumed him until he died. Which is a harsh reality considering how easy it looked with Thriller.

Well said. I think that is the tragedy of Thriller. It was the culmination of everything he wanted and learned. But it became his downfall at the same time.

LiLi1992 said:

Michael enjoyed the tours? Lol!
During the filming of "Living with MJ":
camera is off: I hate tours
camera is on: I love tours
laughter-over ... Michael: What? you yourself asked me to say that I love tours.

MJ sometimes a little fib, it is not a secret.
----------------------------------

100 posts and 1000 views ...
Moderators are really nice today.

This type of threads stimulate activity here, as no others.

Ha, I remember watching that.

rdhull said:

Timmy84 said:

Also it's been stated in the past that Michael had always wanted to create "the world's biggest-selling album".

The problem was he kept on attempting to do that.

Yeah I used to complain about that like I understood but I felt he didn't really have to do it because that type of obsession can kill artists. The Unsung documentary showed that with Gerald Levert and his attempts to reach bigger audiences than he did considering his genre. He had that same problem Michael had in topping himself though he wasn't obviously able to reach it due to changing times in the music industry. That obsession with wanting to outdo himself really killed Michael, I think. Long before Conrad Murray came to the picture. It was an obsession that started once he signed that deal with Epic in 1978 at the age of 20.

Are any of you people comprehending?

I NEVER disagreed that he did not like to tour but only added that he did appreciate the fan interaction and he enjoyed that the most despite the harsh touring conditions. PERIOD

mjscarousal said:

And after he made that comment he insisted that he loved seeing his fans and the fan interaction despite the conditions of touring geez .

You know, you can still be his superfan if you acquiesce that he did not like touring and that you may have been wrong.

mjscarousal said:

And after he made that comment he insisted that he loved seeing his fans and the fan interaction despite the conditions of touring geez .

But you made it seem like he loved to tour when he obviously said he didn't. He only did it for the fans.

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

Yes but he ALSO stated he mostly enjoyed the connection with his fans, seeing the fans, meeting the fans when it came to tours.

That don't mean he liked to tour. The fans were the only reason he went along with the tours though it obviously drained him out... remember in 2003 when he in that Home Movies special he was telling his friends, "you know I hate touring" and then was told "just say it to make the fans happy" and he turned to the camera and said, "I love to tour" and kinda rolled his eyes and he and everyone around him laughed? Nah he hated touring. He didn't wanna do one with his brothers but Katherine talked him into it. Bad was given a tour because Sony wanted to expose Bad to the rest of the world so Michael obliged and since the Victory Tour was unable to go overseas, he kept the Victory tour set list until the tour hit America.

Thats what I have been saying this whole time Timmy84.

I only suggested that he loved seeing his fans and the fan interaction to add on to the other claims.

Timmy84 said:

rdhull said:

The problem was he kept on attempting to do that.

That obsession with wanting to outdo himself really killed Michael, I think.

Mos def.

I got tired of the spectacle of everything around him released by him even when it did not deserve it. But he always thought he was on Thriller status.

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

And after he made that comment he insisted that he loved seeing his fans and the fan interaction despite the conditions of touring geez .

But you made it seem like he loved to tour when he obviously said he didn't. He only did it for the fans.

Maybe I was not clear but that was what I was trying to say. I have been saying for the last 6 or 7 posts that he mostly enjoyed touring to please the fans and to interact with the fans despite the harsh conditions and I remember the Home Videos and have the Home Videos.

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

Also it's been stated in the past that Michael had always wanted to create "the world's biggest-selling album". That was actually his goal in his adult career. He wanted something that would catch on with people so much everyone would buy it. He was ambitious, no doubt about it. He wanted all the exposure he could get and all the accolades, which is what caused him to do Thriller in the first place. He never fully recovered from the slight he felt he got due to the reaction from Off the Wall despite its big sales, it only got one Grammy win and two Grammy nods in total and no one interviewed him for magazine covers in US rock magazines because, Michael was told, R&B artists didn't sell magazine covers and he got all arrogant saying to his family, "alright, next album, I'll make sure they'll reach me for a cover and interview, maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't." Thriller wasn't even rumored to have done 100 million when in 1986, he told Quincy he wanted Bad to sell that much. The guy had an obsession with reaching the top. I think it consumed him until he died. Which is a harsh reality considering how easy it looked with Thriller.

Well said. I think that is the tragedy of Thriller. It was the culmination of everything he wanted and learned. But it became his downfall at the same time.

It was as if he couldn't see nothing else. True there was still great music post-Thriller but it seemed he was only focused in making history and breaking records. It's the same obsession artists today got mainly due to Thriller, everyone and their mama wanna do anything to sell records. That's the curse associated with Thriller. True other albums sold big back in the '70s but Thriller took it to levels that it's hard to duplicate. Obviously no one in the '90s and early millennium would top Thriller and even a hits album was only able to match it (Eagles) in America. It sold between 50-100 million worldwide. No one before or since have sold that much and that was mainly because Thriller was still in demand in some form or another. Strange thing is the album sold during times Michael made headlines for stupid shit (which was not all entirely his fault anyway). After his death, Thriller outsold the rest of his albums.

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

Well said. I think that is the tragedy of Thriller. It was the culmination of everything he wanted and learned. But it became his downfall at the same time.

It was as if he couldn't see nothing else. True there was still great music post-Thriller but it seemed he was only focused in making history and breaking records. It's the same obsession artists today got mainly due to Thriller, everyone and their mama wanna do anything to sell records. That's the curse associated with Thriller. True other albums sold big back in the '70s but Thriller took it to levels that it's hard to duplicate. Obviously no one in the '90s and early millennium would top Thriller and even a hits album was only able to match it (Eagles) in America. It sold between 50-100 million worldwide. No one before or since have sold that much and that was mainly because Thriller was still in demand in some form or another. Strange thing is the album sold during times Michael made headlines for stupid shit (which was not all entirely his fault anyway). After his death, Thriller outsold the rest of his albums.

When you think about it, before Thriller, the only two albums that I can recall off the top of my head that had the similar appeal and impact that Thriller had before it was released was:

Carole's Tapestry and the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack...

rdhull said:

Timmy84 said:

That obsession with wanting to outdo himself really killed Michael, I think.

Mos def.

I got tired of the spectacle of everything around him released by him even when it did not deserve it. But he always thought he was on Thriller status.

Thing is I could understand why he tried to keep things that way throughout his career. As long as promo was good, Michael could make a spectacle of himself as an entertainer and use that to sell the records. It worked until HIStory and Invincible but that was mainly because he had to deal with a now-skeptical public. It's tragic considering the promo of Invincible because he was going through his beef with Tommy Motolla then. Even when he did This Is It, he wanted to make history. That's why he sold out all 50 dates of that tour because he wanted to be known for breaking records. That was his goal: "I want to make history and continue to make history". And he also wanted to help others by doing it (he wanted to create a hospital following the end of the tour). Of course we knew what happened after that.

Timmy84 said:

LiLi1992 said:

Not only marketing to me.
Videos and dancing were "world changers" too

Most of legacy of this era is not music.

Videos were part of the marketing. Dance-wise, I think how it changed dance was that it forced a lot of artists, who were dance oriented or not, to add dancing to videos. That's why Madonna and Janet got popular... thanks to the dancing in Michael's videos. Many in the R&B world that were older than Michael were actually upset over that.

Like how they upset now over black artists doing pop&B

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

It was as if he couldn't see nothing else. True there was still great music post-Thriller but it seemed he was only focused in making history and breaking records. It's the same obsession artists today got mainly due to Thriller, everyone and their mama wanna do anything to sell records. That's the curse associated with Thriller. True other albums sold big back in the '70s but Thriller took it to levels that it's hard to duplicate. Obviously no one in the '90s and early millennium would top Thriller and even a hits album was only able to match it (Eagles) in America. It sold between 50-100 million worldwide. No one before or since have sold that much and that was mainly because Thriller was still in demand in some form or another. Strange thing is the album sold during times Michael made headlines for stupid shit (which was not all entirely his fault anyway). After his death, Thriller outsold the rest of his albums.

When you think about it, before Thriller, the only two albums that I can recall off the top of my head that had the similar appeal and impact that Thriller had before it was released was:

Carole's Tapestry and the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack...

Yeah. Even though the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Meat Loaf sold numerous records, when you think about the appeal/impact, yeah it was really only those two. And I think when Tapestry was held as the "biggest-selling album of all time", it only sold five million then (it actually took years for the Beatles/Pink Floyd/Led Zeppelin/Meat Loaf to sell the records that it did compared to those two albums and Thriller). I think SNF sold 10, 11 million, same with Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Thriller had outdone by selling 15 million by 1984, I believe.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

Videos were part of the marketing. Dance-wise, I think how it changed dance was that it forced a lot of artists, who were dance oriented or not, to add dancing to videos. That's why Madonna and Janet got popular... thanks to the dancing in Michael's videos. Many in the R&B world that were older than Michael were actually upset over that.

Like how they upset now over black artists doing pop&B

lol or the PP&B or whatever that is.

Michael was a perfectionist and he constantly wanted to out do himself. But I would not say that sales was everything he cared about and especially in the creating process with albums like Dangerous, HIStory etc. It is clear with each of his albums after Thriller he showed and cared about artistic and creative growth especially as a songwriter and as a producer. Of course, as a pop star, he catered to the masses but I would not just generically label it as him solely caring about sales as to say he did not strive to push himself creatively or did not care about the artistic quality of his music.

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

When you think about it, before Thriller, the only two albums that I can recall off the top of my head that had the similar appeal and impact that Thriller had before it was released was:

Carole's Tapestry and the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack...

Yeah. Even though the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Meat Loaf sold numerous records, when you think about the appeal/impact, yeah it was really only those two. And I think when Tapestry was held as the "biggest-selling album of all time", it only sold five million then (it actually took years for the Beatles/Pink Floyd/Led Zeppelin/Meat Loaf to sell the records that it did compared to those two albums and Thriller). I think SNF sold 10, 11 million, same with Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Thriller had outdone by selling 15 million by 1984, I believe.

Damn, I forgot about Rumours and Dark Side of the Moon...