http://www.flipsidepa.com...r-turns-30

Some cute memories

[Edited 11/30/12 13:43pm]

I don't agree that it changed the world, at all.

Tremendously overrated.

Memorable tracks? Billie Jean and Beat It (which itself is far too repetitive and silly in its naivety).

Honourable mention to Human Nature & WBSS

I think MJ's showmanship (amazing videos and performances) aswell as 'Billie Jean' are the soul reasons for its unparalleled success.

[Edited 11/30/12 13:52pm]

mjscarousal said:

When did I say that MJ invented music videos? I have consistently stated he popularized music videos. HOWEVER, he did enhance it and innovated the short film. NONE of that was being done before his time, period.

Please post videos of who was doing that? And please dont use collages of videos that were labeled music videos. Show me cohesive, choregraphed story plot videos since you are suggesting that was being done before Michaels time.

I already did. You said that music videos before Mike were an "abstract collage of things that had nothing to do with the song". Did you watch the Genesis video? It has a plot and story that follows many of the song's lyrics and it was made years before there was an MTV.

Here's what I don't get about Epic and Thriller: if they were so uncertain about radio playing MJ on both pop and R&B stations, why not release Baby Be Mine? Don't get me wrong, I understand why they released The Girl is Mine because Paul McCartney was still selling some good sizable records then as member of the Wings but I always felt Baby Be Mine was suitable to be released as a single too. Billie Jean was gonna be a hit anyways. Most of the people associated with Thriller including Rod Temperton knew BJ was the centerpiece of Thriller. Another thing that was telling about Thriller was how radio friendly the entire album was. It was one of the few albums of the rock era where adults, teens and children were united in buying Thriller.

MickyDolenz said:

mjscarousal said:

When did I say that MJ invented music videos? I have consistently stated he popularized music videos. HOWEVER, he did enhance it and innovated the short film. NONE of that was being done before his time, period.

Please post videos of who was doing that? And please dont use collages of videos that were labeled music videos. Show me cohesive, choregraphed story plot videos since you are suggesting that was being done before Michaels time.

I already did. You said that music videos before Mike were an "abstract collage of things that had nothing to do with the song". Did you watch the Genesis video? It has a plot and story that follows many of the song's lyrics and it was made years before there was an MTV.

Telling about that video was it was cut right after Peter Gabriel left the group. Phil's video for In the Air Tonight, you can say, was similar to the song. It had the same chilling, dark, sinister scenery that the song entailed (the man drowning lyrics were only a metaphor into Phil's state of mind at the time he did this song, i.e., his first divorce).

[Edited 11/30/12 14:00pm]

Azz said:

I don't agree that it changed the world, at all.

Tremendously overrated.

Memorable tracks? Billie Jean and Beat It (which itself is far too repetitive and silly in its naivety).

Honourable mention to Human Nature & WBSS

I think MJ's showmanship (amazing videos and performances) aswell as 'Billie Jean' are the soul reasons for its unparalleled success.

[Edited 11/30/12 13:52pm]

I partially agree and partially disagree:
agree - the album itself is overrated!! There are dozens of albums stronger musically. While Billie Jean and Beat it - among the greatest songs in the history of music ... but that's all, the rest only from good to decent.

disagree - the era that accompanied the album, really changed the world in many aspects. Video, dance, marketing, fashion, performance, etc. It really was a revolution.

MickyDolenz said:

mjscarousal said:

When did I say that MJ invented music videos? I have consistently stated he popularized music videos. HOWEVER, he did enhance it and innovated the short film. NONE of that was being done before his time, period.

Please post videos of who was doing that? And please dont use collages of videos that were labeled music videos. Show me cohesive, choregraphed story plot videos since you are suggesting that was being done before Michaels time.

I already did. You said that music videos before Mike were an "abstract collage of things that had nothing to do with the song". Did you watch the Genesis video? It has a plot and story that follows many of the song's lyrics and it was made years before there was an MTV.

But it was not a short film. It did not incorporate theatrical and movie type elements.

To be honest, Michael was one of the only artists to make "short films" like that. The only ones I know that had short films after MJ was, probably, Janet (Rhythm Nation 1814, though that could be compared to Moonwalker since both featured songs, not a single song). Billie Jean's scenery is only paid homage. Thriller is also paid homage. Only Beat It was copied by millions of videos afterwards. Bob Giraldi, the video's director, would also be the director of similar videos in the '80s onwards.

Five facts about "Thriller"

*"Billie Jean" was inspired Hall & Oates' "I can't Go For That." Jackson lifted the bass line, and the song was reportedly re-mixed 91 times.

*It took Eddie Van Halen 15 minutes to come up with the guitar solo on "Beat It."

*The video for "Beat It" featured real life gang members, Crips and Bloods. It was Jackson's idea, as a way of creating peace between them.

*Playboy centerfold Ola Ray landed the part of Jackson's girlfriend in the "Thriller" video after "Flashdance" star Jennifer Beals turned it down.

*The red jacket Jackson wore in the "Thriller" video sold at a 2011 auction for $1.8 million.

http://www.flipsidepa.com/entertainment/ci_22052656/remembering-michael-jackson-thriller-turns-30

Bad 25. Thriller 30. Its like 1982-89 again!

[Edited 11/30/12 14:11pm]

really?
I think on the contrary, almost any quality video after 1983 is a "little movie" with the story and dynamic change of scenery.

LiLi1992 said:

really?
I think on the contrary, almost any quality video after 1983 is a "little movie" with the story and dynamic change of scenery.

I meant in the way Michael did it. Whereas most videos were used to promote the song, Michael made it mini-musicals. I doubt anyone did it like that... even the videos that focused on storylines didn't go into it as deep imho...

Timmy84 said:

Here's what I don't get about Epic and Thriller: if they were so uncertain about radio playing MJ on both pop and R&B stations, why not release Baby Be Mine? Don't get me wrong, I understand why they released The Girl is Mine because Paul McCartney was still selling some good sizable records then as member of the Wings but I always felt Baby Be Mine was suitable to be released as a single too. Billie Jean was gonna be a hit anyways. Most of the people associated with Thriller including Rod Temperton knew BJ was the centerpiece of Thriller. Another thing that was telling about Thriller was how radio friendly the entire album was. It was one of the few albums of the rock era where adults, teens and children were united in buying Thriller.

That's been my pet peeve as well when it came to the single choices of this album. "Baby Be Mine" and "Lady In My Life" would've set the urban charts on fire had they been released as singles. I understand the intention for them to choose "The Girl Is Mine" as the lead single, but every song on that album I could see being a potential single.

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

Here's what I don't get about Epic and Thriller: if they were so uncertain about radio playing MJ on both pop and R&B stations, why not release Baby Be Mine? Don't get me wrong, I understand why they released The Girl is Mine because Paul McCartney was still selling some good sizable records then as member of the Wings but I always felt Baby Be Mine was suitable to be released as a single too. Billie Jean was gonna be a hit anyways. Most of the people associated with Thriller including Rod Temperton knew BJ was the centerpiece of Thriller. Another thing that was telling about Thriller was how radio friendly the entire album was. It was one of the few albums of the rock era where adults, teens and children were united in buying Thriller.

That's been my pet peeve as well when it came to the single choices of this album. "Baby Be Mine" and "Lady In My Life" would've set the urban charts on fire had they been released as singles. I understand the intention for them to choose "The Girl Is Mine" as the lead single, but every song on that album I could see being a potential single.

Agree.. Baby Be Mine is one of my favorites!!!!!!

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

Here's what I don't get about Epic and Thriller: if they were so uncertain about radio playing MJ on both pop and R&B stations, why not release Baby Be Mine? Don't get me wrong, I understand why they released The Girl is Mine because Paul McCartney was still selling some good sizable records then as member of the Wings but I always felt Baby Be Mine was suitable to be released as a single too. Billie Jean was gonna be a hit anyways. Most of the people associated with Thriller including Rod Temperton knew BJ was the centerpiece of Thriller. Another thing that was telling about Thriller was how radio friendly the entire album was. It was one of the few albums of the rock era where adults, teens and children were united in buying Thriller.

That's been my pet peeve as well when it came to the single choices of this album. "Baby Be Mine" and "Lady In My Life" would've set the urban charts on fire had they been released as singles. I understand the intention for them to choose "The Girl Is Mine" as the lead single, but every song on that album I could see being a potential single.

I agree. I for one never understood why Epic never released those two if only as R&B singles, it would've definitely helped Michael's R&B chart success as it peaked during this period (Human Nature only made it to 27 and PYT only made it to 46).

mjscarousal said:

MickyDolenz said:

I already did. You said that music videos before Mike were an "abstract collage of things that had nothing to do with the song". Did you watch the Genesis video? It has a plot and story that follows many of the song's lyrics and it was made years before there was an MTV.

But it was not a short film. It did not incorporate theatrical and movie type elements.

Sure it might be low budget and shot on videotape, but that wasn't the point. It's that there were some pre-MJ videos that had stories and not all just "stage performance" or "abstract". The scopitones had higher production values though.

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

That's been my pet peeve as well when it came to the single choices of this album. "Baby Be Mine" and "Lady In My Life" would've set the urban charts on fire had they been released as singles. I understand the intention for them to choose "The Girl Is Mine" as the lead single, but every song on that album I could see being a potential single.

I agree. I for one never understood why Epic never released those two if only as R&B singles, it would've definitely helped Michael's R&B chart success as it peaked during this period (Human Nature only made it to 27 and PYT only made it to 46).

And the R&B peak positions of "Human Nature" and "PYT" weren't flukes at all. "Baby Be Mine" would've set the radio on fire.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:27pm]

silverchild said:

Timmy84 said:

I agree. I for one never understood why Epic never released those two if only as R&B singles, it would've definitely helped Michael's R&B chart success as it peaked during this period (Human Nature only made it to 27 and PYT only made it to 46).

And the R&B peak positions of "Human Nature" and "PYT" weren't flukes at all. "Baby Be Mine" would set the radio on fire.

The peak positions struck me odd. Especially PYT, you think that would be an instant R&B number-one. I was shocked by its position when I first read where it was compared to pop. I wonder if there was some sort of R&B backlash against Thriller...

MickyDolenz said:

mjscarousal said:

But it was not a short film. It did not incorporate theatrical and movie type elements.

Sure it might be low budget and shot on videotape, but that wasn't the point. It's that there were some pre-MJ videos that had stories and not all just "stage performance" or "abstract". The scopitones had higher production values though.

The Carpenters' I Need to Be in Love seemed to fit with the song and video...

Can you inagine how crazy it would've been if Michael went out and toured for Thriller? Technically, he did with the Victory tour, but that was for the sake of his brothers and family.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:30pm]

MickyDolenz said:

mjscarousal said:

But it was not a short film. It did not incorporate theatrical and movie type elements.

Sure it might be low budget and shot on videotape, but that wasn't the point. It's that there were some pre-MJ videos that had stories and not all just "stage performance" or "abstract". The scopitones had higher production values though.

I dont know what your getting at but I disagree.

I never said MJ invented music videos although he did help popularize them

however

He did innovate the short fim and "rehearsed" choregraphy in videos. I STRONGLY stand by that claim. Nothing you say can change that. You have yet to show a lengthy video, longer than 10 minutes that fuses, choregraphy, a movie/story plot and acting before videos like Beat It and Thriller. The budget has nothing to do with those components.

silverchild said:

Can you inagine how crazy it would've been if Michael went out and toured for Thriller? Technically, he did with the Victory tour, but that was for the sake of his brothers and family.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:30pm]

That tour would have probably been bigger than the BAD tour. Victory Tour still was amazing

In the book Moonwalker, Michael said he released The Girl Is Mine because he wanted to get the duet out of the way because it would be over played - and I guess that worked.

silverchild said:

Can you inagine how crazy it would've been if Michael went out and toured for Thriller? Technically, he did with the Victory tour, but that was for the sake of his brothers and family.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:30pm]

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

mynameisnotsusan said:

In the book Moonwalker, Michael said he released The Girl Is Mine because he wanted to get the duet out of the way because it would be over played - and I guess that worked.

I read that too. "Get it out of the way".

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

Can you inagine how crazy it would've been if Michael went out and toured for Thriller? Technically, he did with the Victory tour, but that was for the sake of his brothers and family.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:30pm]

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

Michael enjoy touring, he just didnt like the harsh draining scheduling and conditions that came with it but he loved performing. He has said numerous of times he felt on home and more comfortable on stage than off of it. That is apart of who he. Saying he wanted to be a studio artist is a major exaggeration.

mjscarousal said:

rdhull said:

I think I have it on cd ..the thriller se where he performs the BJ dmeo without the full lyrics..

but that still doesnt mean he wasnt inspired by I Cant Go Fo That but its really not a bid deal. Everybody cops from everybody and if they can make it into something good as well then

It is not a big deal but you implied he took something from someplace else. Everyone is inspired by something, it is still a original piece.

No shit sherlock. But he DID get the idea from I Cant Go For That even if you claim he didnt.

Timmy84 said:

silverchild said:

Can you inagine how crazy it would've been if Michael went out and toured for Thriller? Technically, he did with the Victory tour, but that was for the sake of his brothers and family.

[Edited 11/30/12 14:30pm]

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

True. Mike had alot to prove even after Off The Wall blew up. That story of Michael telling those blue collar execs over at Epic that he wanted his next LP to sell even more than OTW remains one of the record industry's most ah-ha moments.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't think Michael wanted to tour even then. He tried to get away with being a studio artist but he made a bigger explosion as a performer. He didn't even have to tour because he was making money based off the deal he had signed with Epic in 1980 following the success of Off the Wall that gave him 37% of wholesale album profit, giving him the highest royalty rate of any performer. Besides the album was selling so much he was like "to hell with it" lol

Michael enjoy touring, he just didnt like the harsh draining scheduling and conditions that came with it but he loved performing. He has said numerous of times he felt on home and more comfortable on stage than off of it. That is apart of who he. Saying he wanted to be a studio artist is a major exaggeration.

Touring and performing are two different things. He did not like touring,

Michael had the balls and the belief to put his money where his mouth was and invest in himself - the Thriller video absolutely pushed the medium as far as it could go and was ASTOUNDING when it came out. People might think it's overplayed, overrated whatever. Like the original post in this thread says it took him to another stratosphere.