This is the version that caused the biggest arguments between Michael and Quincy. Michael was more forward thinking but as Mickey said, they had to cut it because the longer version's sound was distorted according to Quincy and Michael got upset over the playback so they never used it. The bridge where the guitar riffs show up (played by Louis Jackson) went on too long. So did the intro. I did like the "not my lover" chants that went over and over though. But Quincy was just as smart as Michael with how they timed it. That's what producers do.

novabrkr said:

What's interesting about the bass line on "Billie Jean" is that its first played with a bass guitar, but then it gets switched to the same line played on a synth (like heard on the demo - I think it's a Minimoog).

You heard that too? It was like it was overdubbed...

Also shout out to Jerry Hey for the strings and the arrangements. He was like the Dave van DePitte of the '80s especially with the strings here.

Great info.

*listens to Billie Jean insturmental*

novabrkr said:

Somehow I feel Michael himself was uncomfortable with his look during the Off The Wall / early-Thriller -era. He had already worn weirder, spage-age style stuff with The Jacksons. It just all seems so planned out in retrospect. Except that he might have enjoyed looking like a member of The Wings with Paul McCartney.

I wouldnt necessarily say he felt uncomfortable but more so just finding his adult solo individual style seperate from when he was with his brothers. I find some of what he wore and styles he was interested in while he was with his brothers is slightly similiar when he went solo. There are alot of footages where MJ talks about alot of the particular styles he liked and why he wore certain things and just things that grabs attention. There is a tremendous amount of wardrobe and clothes that he wore that was still flamboyant during Off The Wall/Thriller era but I personally think with BAD he took his image to a whole different level in the edge/dark aspect.

I think out of those two eras my favorite particular flamboyant/attention grabbing look was this from MJ Off The Wall

MJ Thriller beat it/Thriller jackets

With each adult solo album grew into his style which was very eclectic. There are some aspects about Thriller era MJ that I would argue as edgy. I also notices his favorite colors red and black he incorporated heavily in his style.

They should dissect this song like Harry Weinger did with "What's Going On", there's lots going on in it.

According to Bruce Swedien (I think), Michael sung his famous ad-libs through a cardboard tube. I'm guessing they wanted to make it real dramatic as if Michael was hearing voices in his head.

"Don't go around breaking young girls' hearts..." ("DON'T YOU BREAK HER HEART!")

Weird... someone should just do a video with just the strings too...

Timmy84 said:

novabrkr said:

What's interesting about the bass line on "Billie Jean" is that its first played with a bass guitar, but then it gets switched to the same line played on a synth (like heard on the demo - I think it's a Minimoog).

You heard that too? It was like it was overdubbed...

Yeah, sure. I think they did it that way because the bass guitar sounds better during the intro, but the synth cuts through better during the rest of the song. I think it's a great production choice. The intro on the demo version sounds a bit too corny when played on the synth.

By the way, Michael allowed producers of "The Jacksons: An American Dream" to use the original longer intro of "Billie Jean" when "Michael" does his moonwalk performance on Motown 25. And Michael performed versions of the longer version (the "you know you ain't/you know you can't" parts) in concert and redid the intro and moved it to the part where he does his dancing.

novabrkr said:

Timmy84 said:

You heard that too? It was like it was overdubbed...

Yeah, sure. I think they did it that way because the bass guitar sounds better during the intro, but the synth cuts through better during the rest of the song. I think it's a great production choice. The intro on the demo version sounds a bit too corny when played on the synth.

Right. Mixing it made perfect sense. The intro on the demo was indeed real corny. I think they used a synthesizer bass minimoog on it. Like you said, it comes in just right after Michael begins making his noises (which were actually echoed).

300 + posts and 3000 + views, but the thread is still alive.
no one raised a hand to close Thriller ...

I also see the part where Mike goes "ch-OOOH" on the acapella version was muted on the single version (it comes before Michael (and the strings) go "hoo-HOO, hoo-HOO").

LiLi1992 said:

300 + posts and 3000 + views, but the thread is still alive.
no one raised a hand to close Thriller ...

I think it's because it's an anniversary of a classic album so it was left alone...

[Edited 12/1/12 11:58am]

I posted the Human Nature demo version on the MJ sticky but I might as well do it here:

This was Steve Porcaro's demo and Toto's musicians are playing in the background. This is what convinced Quincy and Michael to use the song.

This was much more edgier than the one that was almost picked:

----
They made the right choice.

Timmy84 said:

LiLi1992 said:

300 + posts and 3000 + views, but the thread is still alive.
no one raised a hand to close Thriller ...

I think it's because it's an anniversary of a classic album so it was left alone...

[Edited 12/1/12 11:58am]

sooo, you want to say, that Whatzupwitu with Eddie Murphy isn`t classic?...how disrespectful

I loved that thread.

LiLi1992 said:

Timmy84 said:

I think it's because it's an anniversary of a classic album so it was left alone...

[Edited 12/1/12 11:58am]

sooo, you want to say, that Whatzupwitu with Eddie Murphy isn`t classic?...how disrespectful

I loved that thread.

Not that bullshit again. That thread was ridiculous though lol

I don't want to rain on your guys' parade, but Michael's studio outtakes are for the most part really damn bland.

Carousal did not fit the direction of Thriller and they made the right choice of picking Human Nature. I still adore Carousal and the vocals though.

novabrkr said:

I don't want to rain on your guys' parade, but Michael's studio outtakes are for the most part really damn bland.

You're not wrong... I can't stand Night Line. Trouble wouldn't have fit. Neither would've Hot Street/Slapstick. Starlight Sun? Ew. Carousel sounded too much like an OTW outtake than Thriller imho... I can see why Q had the upper hand in those days, there were a lot of songs that didn't fit what he (and Michael) wanted and at the end of the day Michael himself also was like "yeah these songs are too corny for this record". One corny sounding record was enough (The Girl is Mine). Michael himself as some recalled felt some songs weren't tough enough to have him present what he wanted to present. Can you imagine Carousel or Hot Street on Thriller now?

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I still admire Thriller for the quality of the songwriting, but Bad was the edgier album, even with the glossed-up production

It clearly was. There was still an edge (that I credit Michael with) with the Bad album. Quincy was the reason it sounded so glossy as fuck. That gloss started leaving by Dangerous though after Teddy entered the picture.

Timmy, you gone sit there w/a straight face and suggest that Quincy Jones was the reason why BAD sounded "glossy"....

cmon man, Jesus Christ

Michael Jackson was LEAD PRODUCER for the BAD ALBUM

Quincy was co-producer....that information is in print on the back of that album sleeve, cd sleeve,

anyone can pull that information up on the internet

and considering the way Michael's current fan following honor him as "the king of pop", that means Michael Jackson had the final say for how any particular track on that album would be crafted

so if he's the king of pop, that means HE was responsible for the way his songs sounded regarding the end product

perfect example: AL CAPONE, a record that was built on R&B element, then he scaled that song down to create pop personification in SMOOTH CRIMINAL

and considering the reaction I've witness on youtube in regards to that song, many fans who prefer his work post-THRILLER have stated Al Capone was the better song

MICHAEL had already went full scale pop w/the BAD album, where fans love to point out this is when he unofficially became the king of pop, so if that's the case, how in the world was Quincy responsible for "gloss"

any other time, Michael is given all the credit for BAD, but to circumvent the true role Q played in the production of Off The Wall/Thriller, now here we go w/the notion that he was responsible for the gloss to conceal the fact that Michael made the choice to formulate the "gloss"

Quincy was the same producer who encouraged Michael to record SHE'S OUT OF MY LIFE w/the most raw feeling imaginable, right along w/LADY IN MY LIFE some 3 years later, and there's no way either song would be misconstrued as POP

was DIRTY DIANA more "edgier" than BILLIE JEAN?

was BAD more edgier than BEAT IT?

to this day, Billie Jean is talked about more than Dirty Diana

and Beat It is talked about more than Bad

to show you how true that is, Michael Jackson was still performing Beat It and Billie Jean in concert as late as the History Tour where he stopped performing Bad and Dirty Diana w/the Bad Tour

novabrkr said:

I don't want to rain on your guys' parade, but Michael's studio outtakes are for the most part really damn bland.

Really?

Some of his outtakes were better than some of the songs that made the album cut especially during Dangerous sessions and BAD although once again I understand why they didnt make the cut with not fitting the direction or was not a hit generator.

Songs like Serious Effect and Im So Blue are excellent but they didnt fit the direction of the albums doesnt mean they were bland. Some of those outtakes were demos and unfinished.

[Edited 12/1/12 12:18pm]

In fact I remembered when I first heard Hot Street, the version, first of all, was TOO high pitched (you can tell it was from some real old tape). Then I heard the original version (with the audio pitched right) and felt "hmm, I see what Rod Temperton was trying to do with the album". Hot Street was cool and it had a lot of new wave backing in it but Q and MJ probably thought the song wasn't strong enough to put on the album. Same with another outtake, "Got the Hots", which MJ wrote, I think. I can see also how that song didn't make the final set list. For one, it sounded unfinished and second, it was too OTW-influenced so that got put in the trash can.

Arguably the best out of the outtakes.

MickyDolenz said:

OK, I think I know when that Thriller single cover was taken, right around October 1983-ish because that's when they started talking of the Jacksons reunion.

[Edited 12/1/12 12:21pm]

mjscarousal said:

novabrkr said:

I don't want to rain on your guys' parade, but Michael's studio outtakes are for the most part really damn bland.

Really?

Some of his outtakes were better than some of the songs that made the album cut especially during Dangerous sessions and BAD although once again I understand why they didnt make the cut with not fitting the direction or was not a hit generator.

Songs like Serious Effect and Im So Blue are excellent but they didnt fit the direction of the albums doesnt mean they were bland. Some of those outtakes were demos and unfinished.

[Edited 12/1/12 12:18pm]

Really. Most of the outtakes are just too damn corny and sketchy (and not "sketchy" in the raw Prince outtake -kind of way). Some of the lyrics that are about things that interested Michael himself the most are just plain embarrassing (you know, songs about magic and shit). Maybe some of the songs that were left off Invincible were better than what ended up on the album, but for the most part I feel they made the right choices with the songs they put on the albums (although "Leave Me Alone" could have been on the regular edition of Bad as well).

I could barely listen through the "new" songs on Bad 25. Really weak stuff all throughout, even if "Al Capone" and "Abortion Papers" were sort of interesting to listen to as works-in-progress. The synths and the beats are really lifeless. Sort of a problem with the actual album itself as well, but at least the melodies were stronger.

Timmy84 said:

aardvark15 said:

Hall & Oates admited they didn't make it up either

H&O said they got their riff from I Can't Go for That from another song though they don't say from where. Riffs are always created and someone interpolates it and makes it better than they did. That was the case here. Michael just made it ten times better. Nothing's too original anyway. It's just someone else knew how to make that riff work. Once a riff is there, no one can top it. That's what happened with Billie Jean, no one attempted to match it except Caribbean Queen by Billy Ocean, that was the only one I can recall that tried the same approach.

There were several later songs with a similar rhythm or sound:

Superstar ~ Lydia Murdock

Night Rider ~ Midnight Star

Like A Virgin ~ Madonna

Carribean Queen ~ Billy Ocean

Addicted To Love ~ Robert Palmer

Dirty Dancer ~ Bar-Kays

Scorp said:

Timmy84 said:

It clearly was. There was still an edge (that I credit Michael with) with the Bad album. Quincy was the reason it sounded so glossy as fuck. That gloss started leaving by Dangerous though after Teddy entered the picture.

Timmy, you gone sit there w/a straight face and suggest that Quincy Jones was the reason why BAD sounded "glossy"....

cmon man, Jesus Christ

Michael Jackson was LEAD PRODUCER for the BAD ALBUM

Quincy was co-producer....that information is in print on the back of that album sleeve, cd sleeve,

anyone can pull that information up on the internet

and considering the way Michael's current fan following honor him as "the king of pop", that means Michael Jackson had the final say for how any particular track on that album would be crafted

so if he's the king of pop, that means HE was responsible for the way his songs sounded regarding the end product

perfect example: AL CAPONE, a record that was built on R&B element, then he scaled that song down to create pop personification in SMOOTH CRIMINAL

and considering the reaction I've witness on youtube in regards to that song, many fans who prefer his work post-THRILLER have stated Al Capone was the better song

MICHAEL had already went full scale pop w/the BAD album, where fans love to point out this is when he unofficially became the king of pop, so if that's the case, how in the world was Quincy responsible for "gloss"

any other time, Michael is given all the credit for BAD, but to circumvent the true role Q played in the production of Off The Wall/Thriller, now here we go w/the notion that he was responsible for the gloss to conceal the fact that Michael made the choice to formulate the "gloss"

Quincy was the same producer who encouraged Michael to record SHE'S OUT OF MY LIFE w/the most raw feeling imaginable, right along w/LADY IN MY LIFE some 3 years later, and there's no way either song would be misconstrued as POP

was DIRTY DIANA more "edgier" than BILLIE JEAN?

was BAD more edgier than BEAT IT?

to this day, Billie Jean is talked about more than Dirty Diana

and Beat It is talked about more than Bad

to show you how true that is, Michael Jackson was still performing Beat It and Billie Jean in concert as late as the History Tour where he stopped performing Bad and Dirty Diana w/the Bad Tour

Quincy Jones is credited on the BAD album as being the lead producer and Michael gets a co producer credit. That information is universal and can be looked up

But of course we all know Michael had alot more participation in the production. However, Quincy put the final touches on those songs and demo versions Michael made. I think "gloss" meant just putting the final touches on the songs. I personally dont think the production was over glossy/overproduced like some here were saying . While I think MJ deserved more producer recognition for BAD, Quincys role in the production for the album did put the final touches on the songs. The demos dont sound that much different from the songs (reason why MJ gets co producer credit) even though the final cuts are polished. But thats the role of a producer anyway

novabrkr said:

mjscarousal said:

Really?

Some of his outtakes were better than some of the songs that made the album cut especially during Dangerous sessions and BAD although once again I understand why they didnt make the cut with not fitting the direction or was not a hit generator.

Songs like Serious Effect and Im So Blue are excellent but they didnt fit the direction of the albums doesnt mean they were bland. Some of those outtakes were demos and unfinished.

[Edited 12/1/12 12:18pm]

Really. Most of the outtakes are just too damn corny and sketchy (and not "sketchy" in the raw Prince outtake -kind of way). Some of the lyrics that are about things that interested Michael himself the most are just plain embarrassing (you know, songs about magic and shit). Maybe some of the songs that were left off Invincible were better than what ended up on the album, but for the most part I feel they made the right choices with the songs they put on the albums (although "Leave Me Alone" could have been on the regular edition of Bad as well).

I could barely listen through the "new" songs on Bad 25. Really weak stuff all throughout, even if "Al Capone" and "Abortion Papers" were sort of interesting to listen to as works-in-progress. The synths and the beats are really lifeless. Sort of a problem with the actual album itself as well, but at least the melodies were stronger.

Songs about magic and shit

Well most of the songs that didnt make the cut I agree dont fit with the cohesiveness of the albums and are just unfinish but some songs I do enjoy. I didnt say all but some of them are nice but I understand why they didnt make the cut. My favorite cuts off Bad25 were Free and Im So Blue and no they dont belong on BAD and glad they were cut but they still sound nice to me, them vocals so heavenly and the melodies Alot of the songs that didnt make Invincible could have been exchange for some of the weaker cuts on the album. I agree that some of the lyrics on some of the unfinish songs were corny and not really lyrics. I just look at those songs as demos and not real finish products but the direction some of those songs were going were pretty good to me if it had been completed

mjscarousal said:

Carousal did not fit the direction of Thriller and they made the right choice of picking Human Nature. I still adore Carousal and the vocals though.

To me, Carousel sounds like it could be a song on a movie soundtrack from the time.

I suppose it's nice enough that we've gotten to hear more music from his solo years though (solo years as an adult that is). As many classics as he did, his musical legacy as a solo artist has relied on a suprisingly small number of recordings (considering how long he had been around).

One problem with the outtakes is also that the musicianship is often subpar. They hired the best guys available to do the cuts for the albums, but the demos can be sometimes quite tiring to listen to.