MickyDolenz said:

rialb said:

Yeah, there are probably going to be a bunch of artists that don't get in due to the fact that they were not successful in America.

Since it's a museum in the US based on a boomer generation magazine, acts only popular in other countries are not that relevant to the audience the hall is for. I don't think there's many performers from Africa, Singapore, or El Salvador in the hall either. There's many other places besides the US and UK. People don't complain about those acts not getting in. They just get lumped in a "world music" category, when the last time I checked, the US & UK are not on another planet, so the music from those countries is also made in "the world".

Well, let's be realistic. Africa, Singapore and El Salvador are hardly prolific when it comes to producing rock and roll artists. Opinions will inevitably vary but when it comes to rock and roll music the vast, vast majority of the "best" artists came from either the U.S. or the U.K.

MickyDolenz said:

Since it's a museum in the US based on a boomer generation magazine, acts only popular in other countries are not that relevant to the audience the hall is for. I don't think there's many performers from Africa, Singapore, or El Salvador in the hall either. There's many other places besides the US and UK. People don't complain about those acts not getting in. They just get lumped in a "world music" category, when the last time I checked, the US & UK are not on another planet, so the music from those countries is also made in "the world".

Yes, you're right. I have nothing against these music critics maganizes, but if they're gonna talk all time/whole world, they should not say if they're not actually doing it. They are not. They are talking basically US UK and some other English Speaking countries rock era music. They shoult put their focus explicit. Then sometimes they put some jazz or "world music" appreciation, very little remembered, among hundreds of rock era english speaking music. It's really awkward, makes no sense and the critics publication look really idiotic.

Somewhat, now that you talked Africa, I think Nigerian Fela Kuti will be inducted sometime to the RRHF, since he's been very influential in the 70s to the artists that already are there, and his music has traces of funk and fusion rock. It might be the same case for Indian Ravi Shankar, who has been very influential to the psychedelic rock late 60s period, but I don't think he's going to make it, since his music is Indian Classical and had not been influenced by rock, only the other way around.

BrazilianOnRaspberryBeret said:

MickyDolenz said:

Since it's a museum in the US based on a boomer generation magazine, acts only popular in other countries are not that relevant to the audience the hall is for. I don't think there's many performers from Africa, Singapore, or El Salvador in the hall either. There's many other places besides the US and UK. People don't complain about those acts not getting in. They just get lumped in a "world music" category, when the last time I checked, the US & UK are not on another planet, so the music from those countries is also made in "the world".

Yes, you're right. I have nothing against these music critics maganizes, but if they're gonna talk all time/whole world, they should not say if they're not actually doing it. They are not. They are talking basically US UK and some other English Speaking countries rock era music. They shoult put their focus explicit. Then sometimes they put some jazz or "world music" appreciation, very little remembered, among hundreds of rock era english speaking music. It's really awkward, makes no sense and the critics publication look really idiotic.

Somewhat, now that you talked Africa, I think Nigerian Fela Kuti will be inducted sometime to the RRHF, since he's been very influential in the 70s to the artists that already are there, and his music has traces of funk and fusion rock. It might be the same case for Indian Ravi Shankar, who has been very influential to the psychedelic rock late 60s period, but I don't think he's going to make it, since his music is Indian Classical and had not been influenced by rock, only the other way around.

Excuse me, I remembered we're talking about the RRHF exclusively, that has a specific focus evident, but I wrote thinking of music critics publications generally.

Tons

funkdoctorrock said:

I love rap..But i dont think a rap artist should get in over a R&B /Rock artist or artists.

funkdoctorrock said:

I love rap..But i dont think a rap artist should get in over a R&B /Rock artist or artists.

Why not country? It's an influence with rockabilly, country rock, & southern rock. Run DMC and the Beastie Boys has rock in their music, so why aren't they "rock"? They're more rock than Percy Sledge and Abba. Rock doesn't really mean anything anyway, it's just a generic term. "Rock" can mean surf rock, psychedelic rock, bubblegum rock, prog, soft/light rock, arena rock, corporate rock, thrash, death metal, jazz rock, funk rock, blues rock, folk, new wave, alternative, college rock, etc.

[Edited 10/10/12 11:09am]

murph said:

Free2BMe said:

FTR, the "Rock N'Roll Hall of Fame has NEVER been JUST about "Rock N' Roll". If that was so, then Aretha Franklin, James Brwon and others wouldn't have been inducted. "Rock N' Roll" began with rhythm and blues, therefore, just being a "band with long hair playing a guitar does NOT define rock n' roll. Having said this, Michael Jackson DESERVED to be in the R&R Hall of Fame as much as ANYONE who has ever been inducted. His influence on music culture, the art of music, and everthing else is immeasureable. Even if you don't care for him or his music, it can't be denied that Michael DESERVED to be in the R&R Hall of Fame.

What you^^^^^ said...

R&B and blues and gospel are the bedrocks of rock n roll....That's why R&B and black musical genres (i.e. hip-hop) are in the Hall...

And Kiss, as much as I like their live shows, should not be automatic....Their greatest album came from a live format....Think about that...

Deep Purple deserve to get in...But them being shut out has nothing to do with R&B or hip-hop...

PISS (that's what I consider them to be) should be in the RRHOF when I become president of the planet Earth. This version of The_Doodlebops makes rock & roll like like a Saturday morning show than a real rock act. If PISS gets nominated, then I guess the Doodlebops, Kaptain Kool & The Kongs, and the The Archies can also be inducted.

lazycrockett said:

The Cars

Kate Bush

The Cars, yes. Kate Bush? She's not that well-known in the USA, and although she's a great artist, it would be hard to justifiy her inclusion in the RRHOF.

fred12 said:

brooksie said:

Why would the Mighty Clouds of Joy be inducted? They're a gospel act and by definition kind of an odd pick for such a secular genre as Rock and Roll.

Let's review past inductees who were Gospel artists...Clara Ward, Mahalia Jackson, and The Soul Stirrers...even though they were gospel..they made it in..just like artists who were jazz performers have made it in..so Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.or Music Hall of Fame?

I do understand what you are saying, however, Elvis got his style from the gospel and blues singers that he grew up hearing. Also, to be honest, rock and roll COMES from gospel and rhythm and blues. Little Richard is definitely rock and roll but his roots are from gospel and blues also....

MickyDolenz said:

funkdoctorrock said:

I love rap..But i dont think a rap artist should get in over a R&B /Rock artist or artists.

Why not country? It's an influence with rockabilly, country rock, & southern rock. Run DMC and the Beastie Boys has rock in their music, so why aren't they "rock"? They're more rock than Percy Sledge and Abba. Rock doesn't really mean anything anyway, it's just a generic term. "Rock" can mean surf rock, psychedelic rock, bubblegum rock, prog, soft/light rock, arena rock, corporate rock, thrash, death metal, jazz rock, funk rock, blues rock, folk, new wave, alternative, college rock, etc.

[Edited 10/10/12 11:09am]

Loud, fast electric guitars. To me that is a key ingredient in most rock music. Guitars, drums, bass (and sometimes keyboards/piano) played fast/aggressively, to me that is what is necessary for rock and roll. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast, vast majority of rap music has little to nothing to do with rock and roll.

Fantomex50 said:

murph said:

What you^^^^^ said...

R&B and blues and gospel are the bedrocks of rock n roll....That's why R&B and black musical genres (i.e. hip-hop) are in the Hall...

And Kiss, as much as I like their live shows, should not be automatic....Their greatest album came from a live format....Think about that...

Deep Purple deserve to get in...But them being shut out has nothing to do with R&B or hip-hop...

PISS (that's what I consider them to be) should be in the RRHOF when I become president of the planet Earth. This version of The_Doodlebops makes rock & roll like like a Saturday morning show than a real rock act. If PISS gets nominated, then I guess the Doodlebops, Kaptain Kool & The Kongs, and the The Archies can also be inducted.

You brought me around to seeing things your way. One of the most famous rock and roll bands ever has no business being in an institution named the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

For me, the biggest two to be left out are complete opposites: Daryl Hall & John Oates, and Rush. For example: Sam & Dave are in, and were entertainers with 3 Top 40 hits. They were not songwriters, or producers. They sang, and sang very well, but that is about it. Including Hall's 2 solo hits, Hall & Oates have 36, that's right THIRTY SIX top 40 Hits, 10 of those hit Top Five, and SIX of those hit Number One. SIX NUMBER ONE HITS, and not even a SLIGHT consideration for the Hall of Fame? Really?

It's not like these guys couldn't do anything. They wrote there own songs, play some of the instruments, and self-produced many of their biggest hits. "Sara Smile," may have only hit number four, but it remains a Pop and R&B classic. I'm not trying to pick on Sam & Dave. They were great, but better than H&O?

I could write a lot about Rush and their influence, but not a lot about hit singles, because they really didn't have any hits, but "Tom Sawyer," was all over radio in the first half of the 1980's. Rush's touring success alone is above at least 75% or more of any of the other Hall of Fame acts.

So Rush, and Hall & Oates. Two big ones left out. How in the hell can a guy named "Hall," with 6 number one hits not be something called the "Hall of Fame." Crazy.

rialb said:

MickyDolenz said:

Why not country? It's an influence with rockabilly, country rock, & southern rock. Run DMC and the Beastie Boys has rock in their music, so why aren't they "rock"? They're more rock than Percy Sledge and Abba. Rock doesn't really mean anything anyway, it's just a generic term. "Rock" can mean surf rock, psychedelic rock, bubblegum rock, prog, soft/light rock, arena rock, corporate rock, thrash, death metal, jazz rock, funk rock, blues rock, folk, new wave, alternative, college rock, etc.

[Edited 10/10/12 11:09am]

Loud, fast electric guitars. To me that is a key ingredient in most rock music. Guitars, drums, bass (and sometimes keyboards/piano) played fast/aggressively, to me that is what is necessary for rock and roll. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast, vast majority of rap music has little to nothing to do with rock and roll.

Light rock doesn't generally have this. If that is the case, why are Simon & Garfunkel, James Taylor, Billy Joel, & Elton John considered rock? I hear them being played on the classic rock station all the time.

funkdoctorrock said:

Im sorry Mickey.. As a lover of R&b,jazz,funk,rock..I cant put Run DMC In the same sentence with Kool and The Gang,Ohio players,Luther Vandross,Barry White,War...I cant do it.lol..

Abba & Madonna are not "rock n roll" either, but they're in. Run DMC is more rock than Luther Vandross. I don't care who's in or not, it's just a museum. It's not that serious. It's just silly that after all this time people still talk about only "rock n roll" acts getting in, when acts from other genres have been inducted from the beginning. If people don't like it, then they can start their own museum and put whoever they want in it.

funkdoctorrock said:

idk..U rite.. Its not serious.I dont need the RockNRoll Hof to validate the artists i mentioned and others...I just think they brought more to music"Period"..Actual musicians,notes,singers,strings..... Musical composition always amazed me more.. Then cats rapping over a beat. But....I hear ya

Well, a lot of the popular R&B today is people singing over a beat and samples. What's the difference? Anyway, the Hall Of Fame was started by the founder of Rolling Stone. Although it was considered a rock magazine, RS has never featured rock n roll acts only. Neither did other rock n' roll magazines like Creem and Circus. So if non rock performers can appear in them, why not the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame?

MickyDolenz said:

rialb said:

Loud, fast electric guitars. To me that is a key ingredient in most rock music. Guitars, drums, bass (and sometimes keyboards/piano) played fast/aggressively, to me that is what is necessary for rock and roll. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast, vast majority of rap music has little to nothing to do with rock and roll.

Light rock doesn't generally have this. If that is the case, why are Simon & Garfunkel, James Taylor, Billy Joel, & Elton John considered rock? I hear them being played on the classic rock station all the time.

Just to make a point, Elton John has many songs with loud rock guitar in them. Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting being the biggest hit among his rock songs, along with The Bitch Is Back, Goodbye Marlon Brando, and even Crocodile Rock and I'm Still Standing have rock parts in them. Not to mention, I always felt ROCK meant Rock, but that the ROLL meant soul, blues, boogie, and other forms of music.

Fantomex50 said:

murph said:

What you^^^^^ said...

R&B and blues and gospel are the bedrocks of rock n roll....That's why R&B and black musical genres (i.e. hip-hop) are in the Hall...

And Kiss, as much as I like their live shows, should not be automatic....Their greatest album came from a live format....Think about that...

Deep Purple deserve to get in...But them being shut out has nothing to do with R&B or hip-hop...

PISS (that's what I consider them to be) should be in the RRHOF when I become president of the planet Earth. This version of The_Doodlebops makes rock & roll like like a Saturday morning show than a real rock act. If PISS gets nominated, then I guess the Doodlebops, Kaptain Kool & The Kongs, and the The Archies can also be inducted.

If the Sex Pistols (who I DO like) can get in based on one album, then KISS should get in on "Destroyer" alone! Never mind that they've had a 40-year career, 28 gold records, 100 million copies sold, and are still making new music and selling plenty of concert tickets and merchandise. It's called the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame", right? How much more famous do you have to be?--even if you personally don't like them!

stillwaiting said:

Not to mention, I always felt ROCK meant Rock, but that the ROLL meant soul, blues, boogie, and other forms of music.

"Rock n roll" was black slang for sex. Alan Freed decided to call race/R&B music 'rock n roll' because it was sometimes mentioned in the "race" songs of the time, and he didn't think "race" was a good label.

[Edited 10/11/12 12:29pm]

"Rock n roll" was black slang for sex. Alan Freed decided to call race/R&B music 'rock n roll' because it was sometimes mentioned in the "race" songs of the time, and he didn't think "race" was a good label.

[Edited 10/11/12 12:29pm]

Interesting. I didn't know that. I recall, if I'm not mistaken, that in Ken Burns Jazz documentary it's said the word jazz also was a slang for sex originally.

If we were to question what's rock and what's not, I remembered that the band that is more commonly accepted as the greatest of the rock era is the Beatles. And the Beatles (apart from some rockabilly influenced-British invasion in the first albums, and some songs on later algums like Helter Skelter, Taxman, Come Together) are MAINLY a pop music group. So I don't think this determination that rock must have a guitar on the forefront can work well. Jazz is clearly know to be jazz whether it's played by a piano, a sax, a trumpet, trombone, guitar, bass, bajo, vibraphone, alone or all together.

BrazilianOnRaspberryBeret said:

"Rock n roll" was black slang for sex. Alan Freed decided to call race/R&B music 'rock n roll' because it was sometimes mentioned in the "race" songs of the time, and he didn't think "race" was a good label.

[Edited 10/11/12 12:29pm]

Interesting. I didn't know that. I recall, if I'm not mistaken, that in Ken Burns Jazz documentary it's said the word jazz also was a slang for sex originally.

I'm not sure about where the 'jazz' word came from. But back then music by black people was called 'race'. I think it was Ahmet Ertegun that popularized the term 'rhythm & blues' for the same reason, to get rid of the "race" label.