Seeing Eminem get a standing O at the Grammies last month, made me realize that hip hop as we know it, has run it's course. Anything that becomes mainstream will have to evolve or eventually die. And while hip hop has changed much over the last 20+ years, I see a huge backlash coming very, very soon. Someone is going to be the leader and major benefactor of this backlash. IMO It will be an artist or group that already has a mainstream following but still has credibility with "musical sophisticates" I'm curious as to y'alls thoughts on this. Do you think this will be the case and if so who do you see playing the role (s) in leading this change. I have a group I see has the most likely but will save that until later in the thread.

i'm more interested in the foundin fathers/mothers of hip-hop than the contemporaries, cuz frankly there's only a handful of folks out now who are decent, imho.

mine!!!

cazal edit.
[This message was edited Tue Mar 4 10:51:16 PST 2003 by Handclapsfingasnapz]

it will have 2 b someone we have not heard because cats that can play real music cant be heard 2day,.radio wont give them a chance, like the roots,rafeal sadiq,mint condition,hell some of my songs sound better than the crap on the radio,. on the real tip 916 dont know who but i will be glad as hell when,. im sick of this rap pop nontalented bunch of guys walking back and forth with the mike talking loud aint saying nothing.

Well I think "he" is out there. I think it's going to be Dre from Outkast. Just a hunch but I think this cat has something to say before it's all said and done.

intha916 said:

yep, he's definitely on the list...

This is a interesting & PROVOCATIVE thought you have here.


What you say about hip-hop would seem to be true, or at least possible, despite the nearly total "assimilation" of hip-hop into "mainstream culture".


What you say about things becoming mainstream (& then burning out) is definitely true. Another good example is the "disco craze" of the late 70s. As you probably know (or remember), disco started out as an "underground" phenomenon, mainly in small pockets of gay & "minority" bars & clubs. Then, slowly but surely, word got out about this music & this lifestyle, which continued to gain momentum & basically EXPLODED with the arrival of the mega- movie & soundtrack hit of "Saturday Night Fever". The film, of course, featured a "mainstream" (read: caucasian) "average", working-class protagonist who could shake his booty with the best of them. The soundtrack featured the music of a group previously known for their pop stylings.. the BeeGees.

So, with this mainstream, "caucasian confirmation"..
disco did blow up. It was literally everywhere, with participation by (almost) every social & economical group in this country. With of course, this final mainstream acceptance, the backlash was not far away. Because disco did "blow up" so quickly, it was hardly surprising that the backlash would come as quickly.


Me being someone clearly on the "outskirts" of hip-hop culture (I only listen to a handful of songs/rappers & own only a few rap cassettes), I don't know if there has yet been a "backlash" yet. The thing I've noticed about hip-hop (again, from my limited, "outsider" status) is that the music & the culture change (I wouldn't exactly say "evolve") about every 2 or 3 years. Because the musis & the culture change so much, it's seems to be hard for there to be any sort of "buildup" which could lead to a "backlash."


Clearly, Eminem is not the 1st popular caucasian rapper on the scene. The 1st, the biggest act before him was the Beastie Boys, I would say (before there could be a "major backlash" against them, they changed their style of music, so that it wasn't "just" hip-hop..)

So, the possibility for a "hip-hop backlash" seemed to dodge the "Beastie Boys bullet."


Then, in the early 90s the next "big thing" in hip-hop was "gangsta rap"
(ugh.)
It was the "in thing" for about 2 or 3 years, & then gangsta rap- in its "purest" form- also seemed to decline; there didn't seem to be a real backlash to that either, other than certain social & political groups which openly criticized the "drug culture", violence & misogyny (sp?) of gangsta rap.


So, maybe it's still possible that there may be some sort of "disco-sized" backlash towards hip-hop..

what factors, intha916, do you think would actually contribute to a "hip-hop backlash"..
&
when- if ever- do you think such a backlash might occur?


(VERY GOOD topic here; the best I've seen so far this year.)

he cant play an instrument.dre u got 2 b kidding, he is just riding on the jock of others ideas like p funk g clinton,.without playing an instrument u cant b as creative. you've got 2 b able 2 play something 2 make a difference,bet u he wont b heard of in the next 2yrs.like so many others. maybe deangelo .r.sadiq but dre no way man.

Rap isn't going anywhere&Neither is Eminem.the fact is that Eminem needed Elton John to stand on stage with Him a couple years back&fast-froward Two years&Eminem has The Roots Backing Him up&still Winning Awards&Getting Oscar Nomination.I Mean the Game isn't going anywhere.Hip-Hop Acts are Profit Sharing with there Record Companys&are Becoming CEO's.Hip-Hop is everywhere&won't be stopped.I might not agree with the Choices&stylings of the time but someone like Queen Latifah is Hip-Hop just as Ice Cube&they are both cashing in the Film Game.Eminem&Dr.Dre got the Game on Lock.Rap/Hip-Hop is stronger than Ever due to the fact that Acts can Drop 3-5 Albums,do Film&have Proteges.the Game is Wider for Hip-Hop still&unlike Disco there is not a Backlash.as long as the Suburbs are Buying it ain't going nowhere&from what I'm seeing Hip-Hop has another 100 Years.

So many good replies that I don't know where to start but I'll pick a few right now.

"he cant play an instrument.dre u got 2 b kidding, he is just riding on the jock of others ideas like p funk g clinton,.without playing an instrument u cant b as creative"

George Clinton isn't as much as a musician as he was a "conductor" Funny you mentioned him because he was exactly who I was thinking about when I mentioned Dre being somoen who could change the game. Dre is open to new ideas and has shown he is willing to take the risk. Understand, we aren't saying this person is going to reinvint the wheel more than they are going to start the ball rolling on a shift in pop musical styles.


"Rap isn't going anywhere&Neither is Eminem"

Em will be gone within 4 years maybe less. He is coming close to "Hammer" type hype and we all know how that ended. Hammer did see not the end coming when he released "Too Legit" Hell he was on top of the world. Think about the backlash that occured after the "pop-party rap of Hammer and Vanilla Ice" It isn't an easy slop down when you make it to the top. It's more like being pushed off a cliff. Like I said, once you go Mainstream you are done unless you are a real talent that can shift with the times as these types are few and far between.


"Clearly, Eminem is not the 1st popular caucasian rapper on the scene. The 1st, the biggest act before him was the Beastie Boys, I would say (before there could be a "major backlash" against them, they changed their style of music, so that it wasn't "just" hip-hop..) "

The Beasties were not totally accepted by the white record buyer like Em is now. Rap was still thought of as "black" The Beasties along with Run-DMC and even Hammer helped pave the road that Em now drives on. Rap has been on a slow raise (20+ years) to pop acceptance but that train has now pulled into the station. Most people never really see the change coming. If they did they would have never bought all those Spice Girl records

Again, good posts everyone. I can't wait to check more after lunch.
[This message was edited Tue Mar 4 12:32:26 PST 2003 by intha916]
[This message was edited Tue Mar 4 12:34:53 PST 2003 by intha916]

Beastie Boys were tight because they balanced there stuff out&stayed doing there thing.I prefer 3rd Base better overall though.anyway Eminem is easily gonna last just for the fact that He is 3 Albums Deep,Making Films,Right Shade&The Cat has History on his Side.the Cat is almost 5 years into the Game&Spinning off Proteges like D12&50 Cent I hardly see Him slowing down.aside from Shade the other difference between Him&Hammer was that Em is a Better Rapper&is Built as a Album Artist.Hammer was a Fun Cat but only cool for the time Period.I can't stand Eminem but the Cat is gonna get alot of Milage out of His Run.He isn't even in his Prime/Peak as a Artist&that is Scary IMHO!Eminem is a Money Machine both in the Studio&On The Big Stage.it was just last Year when he had the Most talked about Album&now He is 3 Albums deep&Films Coming?? that Cat is Scary!! Rap is a Different Animal with Selling Records than when Hammer was on Top.

joelmarable said:

Actually he does play instruments.

I almost don't want to stay in this topic, because my knowledge of hip-hop is SO limited. I really only know some general information about some of the biggest (or most current) names..

having made clear this "disclaimer" of my lack of in-depth hip-hop knowledge..


It does seem that in some ways, "change" is occuring again in this genre. Just last night, while waiting for the "Real World/Road Rules Battle of the Sexes" to come on, I caught the latest (?) videos from Snoop Dogg & Nas..

I admit, I was surprised.

With Snoop, I was surprised because
1) he was in a video which was shot OUTSIDE of Compton
(I make this comment sarcastically, not naively)-
he was in BRAZIL, of all places..
&
2) the theme of the video was not at all violent
(again, I'm sure he's done other songs/videos that are not totally violent.. I've just never heard about them)

Similar, with Nas..
I can't remember what his other videos/songs are like, I was surprised to see him with a bunch of kids, putting out a positive message of some sort..

Presuming that this was a concious decision made by Snoop &/or Nas.. I wonder what the motivation was..

- to distinguish themselves from the rest, the "current trends"?

- to do something "different" for themselves?


As it's been mentioned elsewhere, it seems more & more-
due in part because hip-hop "flavas" tend to change every 2 to 3 years-
that rappers use the music as a springboard to something else-
often, acting (see Will Smith, LL Cool J & others),
regularly entreprenurial pursuits, usually within the music industry (Dr. Dre, Master P, etc.)
EVEN, a handful become.. ACTUAL MUSICIANS!
(I can't think of any examples of this.. somebody help!)


It's like, if you "make it" as a rapper, you can figure to have 2-3 years (maybe 5, if you're LUCKY) of "hip-hop success &/or credibility", & beyond that, you'd better be ready to expand or change your plan of action once the "new flava" arrives.


The line between hip-hop & today's "r&b" is totally blurred. If you're a rapper-
correct that: if you're a rapper & you want to sell a lot of records-
then you probably want to have someone singing on your song.
Then, if you're a singer, you supposedly will have more "street credibility" &/or you'll reach a bigger audience if you put someone like (that damned, omnipresent) Ja Rule
(are his 15 minutes up YET?)

This blur has, in my opinion, led to the "dumbing down" of "r&b" music (& I use that term VERY LOOSELY) where you end of with rappers who clearly can't sing (like Ja Rule) but who have this.. "melodic inflection" in the way they rap which is not "straight up" rapping. Equally, you have singers like Jennifer Lopez whose voice is rather flat, it could almost be mistaken for some sort of "melodic rapping"..


go fucking figure...


Despite my typically lukewarm (at best) view of hip-hop, it's impossible to deny it's "value" or its influence on US culture, even world culture. To paraphrase what was said in an earlier post in this thread, it's like hip-hop grabbed the US & said: "hey yo, we are here, you're gonna know what we are about, & you're gonna feel us, & we are gonna be here for a long time!"..

My 1 constant complain with hip-hop has been & is that so much of it is based on sampling real songs that were made by real musicians 20 years before or more. The "musical" or melodical element of songs has all but been removed, & that's sad, because it deprives most of this current generation (& likely, generations to come) of real, quality..
MUSIC.

I would be more open to hip-hop if more of its performers were self-contain musical bands, like The Roots. They are known, they seem to do well, but they're not on the same level as Eminem or this recent flava..
50cent (?)
(on a scale of
"$100.00,"
50 cents is probably as much musical talent as that nigga has!)


Hm, I think I've sufficiently "vented" in this post..

mistermaxxx said:

Well Hammer had damn near everything u just mentioned with Eminem (he had a cartoon show where as Em had a movie) Hell Hammer even had toys! But u know Maxx I may be wrong about Em not lasting but one thing I know for sure is, he won't last with black kids. Thats why I think the game is ready to be changed. Even though we had the Beasties, 3rd Base and Vanilla Ice, those cats weren't on top of the game like Em is. Eminem represents that hip hop has finally arrived as the main musical style of white youth. Tell me when black kids as a whole supported music who's icon was white? Did they buy Rock and Roll once Elvis was King? I would even say the number of white acts doing disco in the late 70's and early 80's lead to its down fall. Black record buyers no longer felt it was their music and moved on to something else. So if Em survives or not really isn't going to be the issue. The issue is something new is going to be coming soon. History tells us that much.

intha916 said:

The reason why I see Eminem lasting is Simple: The Cat is a Success as a Artist&Now is Moving on to Acts on His Own Label&Next He will be a Cross Between lars Ulrich of Metallica with a Seat resting comfortably with Interscope Records&doing more things.Eminem Has Love&Hate as a Artist&that alone Shows Me He has Made it.you aren't a Music Threat or a Money Threat unless People are Divided over you.

mistermaxxx said:

Well to be fair peope, loved and hated Vanilla Ice too, so I don't think that alone is a sign you have made it. And don't forget the movie "Cool As Ice" As much as we would all like to

intha916 said:

Eminem's Film Made over a 100 Million Oscar Nomiantion for His Song&unlike Ice Eminem is Going on His 4th year Ice was done in a Year&Half at the most.big difference because Eminem Has Rapping Skills.Ice could Dance but didn't have anything else to fall back on.Ice had only 1 Album that truly made any noise&No Business Savvy to last.Eminem is gonna be having a Office with Interscope before it's all said&done with a title on the door to go along with it.the Cat is a Money Making Machine.Ice Melted fast.