Scorp said:

GoldDolphin said:

Yes, you're very right about the satelite thing.... I feel you, Thriller is not my fav album either. The songs on Bad are beautifully made and the arrangments of songs on that album -like Liberian Girl are just extremly underrated.

I found a video that I think scorp or whatever his/her names is might find interesting

ooohhh yes, the clip speaks volumes

I discovered this clip a couple of years ago

it shows proof what the reaction was by the greater public

these were people eager to buy his follow up to Thriller, it wasn't like they were never fans

as esteemed music critic Nelson George said, Michael changing his appearance the way did would be offensive, especially to his black support who were the base of his appeal as he put it

yes, Michael had fans all over the land, I think that's awesome...I really do

but black people were the foundation that put him in position to achieve that global embrace

once he lost that foundation, his career was never the same, especially from his perspective

even in the midst of the hysteria overseas in Europe and abroad, he knew he had lost what was so vital, and that's what led him to focus on establishing himself as an international artist exclusively when he released DANGEROUS in 1991, out of necessity, because he thought he could make up for the loss

that's why he kept reconstructing his look, furthering the transformation, in an attempt to recreate a new identity that would "mask" the reality, to disassociate himself from his past (w/the exception of performing his classing songs such as the motown medleys), to cultivate a new body of fans he hoped would compensate for what he lost in america

for after BAD, he never toured in North America (the mainland) ever again.....that was not an accident

[Edited 9/9/12 19:00pm]

I dont agree with George at all, because MJ was crowned king in many african nations even when he "changed" his appearance. They still loved him regardless because people cared about the music first, then his looks. But back to that comment - it's interesting because most black kids who grew up with MJ in the late 80s and 90s who are now artists/rappers LOVE MJ's Bad era & Dangerous and always praise him for being inspirational with his innovative dance moves/ videos and music. Among modern r&b and hiphop artists from Beyonce, Chris Brown, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Ne-Yo ,Jay-Z, Biggie Smalls, P Diddy, Kanye west, Rihanna among some - always talk about the impact that videos like Smooth Criminal had on their artistry. And I'm also wondering where the belief that black audience turned their back on MJ comes from - because Butterflies was a big hit on urban stations and among black, latino audiences. Many black journalists and people showed their support to MJ during the trials and he supported black organizations in the US (as well as Africa) by giving millions of dollars. Certainly there are people who are born in the late 50s/60s/70s who love his "soul" projects more because of the meaning in their life. I personally don't think urban audiences turned their back on MJ in the USA after Bad, I do think that journalists and mainstream USA did.

claudiax said:

OMG human nature inedite

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtfwbz_michael-jackson-human-nature-live-from-wembley-stadium_music

Wow, i really dont even know what to say.. This is just amazing. i cant wait!

dm3857 said:

claudiax said:

OMG human nature inedite

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtfwbz_michael-jackson-human-nature-live-from-wembley-stadium_music

Wow, i really dont even know what to say.. This is just amazing. i cant wait!

OMG! LOVE IT... I can't wait, just a week left now! MJ was so magical.

Timmy84 said:

The amazing thing about Michael is that even if he didn't get his wish, he was still making records that hadn't been made before. That's still a major accomplishment IMHO. "Bad" was just as iconic as "Thriller" was.

mookie said:

I really like Al Capone's funkiness.

Scorp said:

HE sure wasn't laughin.......not when he was expecting to sell 100 million copies of BAD, based on what he had accomplish with Thriller

and the more he saw his sales decline, the more he attempted to come up w/ways to turn the tide

what he did do was fire his manager Frank Dileo and ceased his collaboration with Quincy Jones saying Quincy was too old and no longer adapt to the changing times...heads started rollin

and then the same year of 1989, Quincy Jones releases BACK ON THE BLOCK, which received critical acclaim and a multitude of artists representing the entire musical spectrum was eager to participate on it: Siedah Garrett, Melle Mel, Kool Moe Dee, Big Daddy Kane, Ice-T, The Brothers Johnson, Barry White, El Debarge, Al. B. Sure, Ella Fitzgerald, Ray Charles, Take 6, Luther, George Benson, Dizzy Gillespie, Al Jarreau...and countless others

so much for being outdated......lolllll

Michael Jackson was the leading artist of the recording industry,

so naturally, he's going to be held to a higher standard because he wanted to be recognized as the biggest star on the planet

it's not so much that his record sales declined as much as it was as to WHY........

[Edited 9/9/12 18:19pm]

But the thing was, he didn't have to do anything to turn the tide. He was still the shit overall. 5 fucking #1s off of 1 album? That's crazy. It wasn't until this year that amazing record was broken.

No way he was going to come near sales of Thriller and I find it sad that he felt that he had to top what that album did. It wasn an impossible feat.

I guarantee ANYONE if Michael would have refrained from going extreme with his plastic surgery, his follow up to THRILLER, rather he would decided to call it BAD or by another name, would have sold more than what it did, based on the enormous fanbase he generated with THRILLER

and all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

to suggest otherwise is to discredit the role his original support played in all of this, one way or the other...

THRILLER sells 25 million in the united states alone, BAD sold 6-8 million copies in america, a 20 million decline in sales....

THAT means if he would have sustained that, rather than lost it, rather than selling 25 million copies of BAD, that 20 million that he lost would have been 45 million and the momentum from that would have motivated millions more to buy it, especially when a new generation of youth started buying records......

this is why he sought to sell 100 MILLION...based on what he had sold w/THRILLER

BAD sold 16 million copies worldwide w/in 2 months after its released, on pace to outsell its predecessor by a mile, and by the time the end of 1987 approached, that's the very moment the tied began to turn

yeah, he garnered 5 number ones....yeah, its a record

those 5 singles remained on the top spot for 2 weeks on average,

they achieved that #1 status because of his stature and what he had previously accomplished....

whereas a group like Boyz II Men experienced a number one distinction for END OF THE ROAD for 16-17 weeks

now that's a "number one" number one.....for a group who had just premiered on the scene 2-3 years prior

[Edited 9/10/12 15:11pm]

Bad actually sold 10-11 million in the US though RIAA didn't re-certify it. I have a book that says so, and all their sales figures for other albums and artists are accurate and this is what was written in for Bad. It was published almost 10 years ago.

Besides, if you want to argue about the number of weeks a song is on top of the charts and compare it to number one singles, then to your standards, billie jean for 8 weeks and beat it for 3 weeks aint worth shit either, right?!

alphastreet said:

Bad actually sold 10-11 million in the US though RIAA didn't re-certify it. I have a book that says so, and all their sales figures for other albums and artists are accurate and this is what was written in for Bad. It was published almost 10 years ago.

Besides, if you want to argue about the number of weeks a song is on top of the charts and compare it to number one singles, then to your standards, billie jean for 8 weeks and beat it for 3 weeks aint worth shit either, right?!

I agree but BAD I think has sold a little bit more than that since 2000... I think currently it sold another 6-7 million within the last decade and not to mention that is just the US.

I just looked at Wikipedia and I know that isnt a reliable source but it has it about 17.2 million and Thriller at 40.2 million US which seems to be about right.

Besides BOTDF and Invincible all of Michaels other albums are on the best selling albums of all time list. Yea I know I am stanning.... I dont care

Scorp said:

I guarantee ANYONE if Michael would have refrained from going extreme with his plastic surgery, his follow up to THRILLER, rather he would decided to call it BAD or by another name, would have sold more than what it did, based on the enormous fanbase he generated with THRILLER

and all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

to suggest otherwise is to discredit the role his original support played in all of this, one way or the other...

THRILLER sells 25 million in the united states alone, BAD sold 6-8 million copies in america, a 20 million decline in sales....

THAT means if he would have sustained that, rather than lost it, rather than selling 25 million copies of BAD, that 20 million that he lost would have been 45 million and the momentum from that would have motivated millions more to buy it, especially when a new generation of youth started buying records......

this is why he sought to sell 100 MILLION...based on what he had sold w/THRILLER

BAD sold 16 million copies worldwide w/in 2 months after its released, on pace to outsell its predecessor by a mile, and by the time the end of 1987 approached, that's the very moment the tied began to turn

yeah, he garnered 5 number ones....yeah, its a record

those 5 singles remained on the top spot for 2 weeks on average,

they achieved that #1 status because of his stature and what he had previously accomplished....

whereas a group like Boyz II Men experienced a number one distinction for END OF THE ROAD for 16-17 weeks

now that's a "number one" number one.....for a group who had just premiered on the scene 2-3 years prior

[Edited 9/10/12 15:11pm]

What i'm getting with you is, you're one of those old school fans that resent what MJ did to this face, so that is why you go all out to undermine his career after Thriller. Why throw up what Boyz II Men did when it was a differnt era? The way songs charted in the 90's was different from the 80's. As a huge chart follower I remember that era. Mariah and Whitney and those men that did that Macarena song also had #1's that spent 16 & 14 weeks at #1 vs Madonna who ended up not having a #1 for over 9 years, so what is your point? It doesn't change the fact that all these acts were hugely successful. I'm pretty sure you aren't undermining the careers of Janet, Madonna, Whitney, Tina Turner, etc. to prop up Rihanna, who is having all these constant #1s, so why do that crap with MJ? It's obvious crap like this that infuriates me as a fan. Agendaish posters like yourself are nowhere to be seen on ther boards of MJ's peers.

I dont know why yall pay Scorpios post any mind

mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

Bad actually sold 10-11 million in the US though RIAA didn't re-certify it. I have a book that says so, and all their sales figures for other albums and artists are accurate and this is what was written in for Bad. It was published almost 10 years ago.

Besides, if you want to argue about the number of weeks a song is on top of the charts and compare it to number one singles, then to your standards, billie jean for 8 weeks and beat it for 3 weeks aint worth shit either, right?!

I agree but BAD I think has sold a little bit more than that since 2000... I think currently it sold another 6-7 million within the last decade and not to mention that is just the US.

I just looked at Wikipedia and I know that isnt a reliable source but it has it about 17.2 million and Thriller at 40.2 million US which seems to be about right.

Besides BOTDF and Invincible all of Michaels other albums are on the best selling albums of all time list. Yea I know I am stanning.... I dont care

Just what I thought, I figured that 10-11 million was the minimum even then, and he has definitely sold more copies of it since then. The re-certification for that and thriller are outstanding, that's all. And even if it's wiki, it's logically correct if not close to it.

I think Thriller is over 30 million in the US and has been for years, I hope they do something to certify it at 30 times platinum in the next year since it'll be 30 years

mookie said:

Scorp said:

I guarantee ANYONE if Michael would have refrained from going extreme with his plastic surgery, his follow up to THRILLER, rather he would decided to call it BAD or by another name, would have sold more than what it did, based on the enormous fanbase he generated with THRILLER

and all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

to suggest otherwise is to discredit the role his original support played in all of this, one way or the other...

THRILLER sells 25 million in the united states alone, BAD sold 6-8 million copies in america, a 20 million decline in sales....

THAT means if he would have sustained that, rather than lost it, rather than selling 25 million copies of BAD, that 20 million that he lost would have been 45 million and the momentum from that would have motivated millions more to buy it, especially when a new generation of youth started buying records......

this is why he sought to sell 100 MILLION...based on what he had sold w/THRILLER

BAD sold 16 million copies worldwide w/in 2 months after its released, on pace to outsell its predecessor by a mile, and by the time the end of 1987 approached, that's the very moment the tied began to turn

yeah, he garnered 5 number ones....yeah, its a record

those 5 singles remained on the top spot for 2 weeks on average,

they achieved that #1 status because of his stature and what he had previously accomplished....

whereas a group like Boyz II Men experienced a number one distinction for END OF THE ROAD for 16-17 weeks

now that's a "number one" number one.....for a group who had just premiered on the scene 2-3 years prior

[Edited 9/10/12 15:11pm]

What i'm getting with you is, you're one of those old school fans that resent what MJ did to this face, so that is why you go all out to undermine his career after Thriller. Why throw up what Boyz II Men did when it was a differnt era? The way songs charted in the 90's was different from the 80's. As a huge chart follower I remember that era. Mariah and Whitney and those men that did that Macarena song also had #1's that spent 16 & 14 weeks at #1 vs Madonna who ended up not having a #1 for over 9 years, so what is your point? It doesn't change the fact that all these acts were hugely successful. I'm pretty sure you aren't undermining the careers of Janet, Madonna, Whitney, Tina Turner, etc. to prop up Rihanna, who is having all these constant #1s, so why do that crap with MJ? It's obvious crap like this that infuriates me as a fan. Agendaish posters like yourself are nowhere to be seen on ther boards of MJ's peers.

exactly, one has to look at the context of chart rules...and mj STILL managed to do well in the 90's with black or white at 7 weeks, 4 top 10's from Dangerous, 2 record breaking debut singles during HIStory with the first single to ever debut at #1, which wasn't common at the time.

GoldDolphin said:

Scorp said:

ooohhh yes, the clip speaks volumes

I discovered this clip a couple of years ago

it shows proof what the reaction was by the greater public

these were people eager to buy his follow up to Thriller, it wasn't like they were never fans

as esteemed music critic Nelson George said, Michael changing his appearance the way did would be offensive, especially to his black support who were the base of his appeal as he put it

yes, Michael had fans all over the land, I think that's awesome...I really do

but black people were the foundation that put him in position to achieve that global embrace

once he lost that foundation, his career was never the same, especially from his perspective

even in the midst of the hysteria overseas in Europe and abroad, he knew he had lost what was so vital, and that's what led him to focus on establishing himself as an international artist exclusively when he released DANGEROUS in 1991, out of necessity, because he thought he could make up for the loss

that's why he kept reconstructing his look, furthering the transformation, in an attempt to recreate a new identity that would "mask" the reality, to disassociate himself from his past (w/the exception of performing his classing songs such as the motown medleys), to cultivate a new body of fans he hoped would compensate for what he lost in america

for after BAD, he never toured in North America (the mainland) ever again.....that was not an accident

[Edited 9/9/12 19:00pm]

I dont agree with George at all, because MJ was crowned king in many african nations even when he "changed" his appearance. They still loved him regardless because people cared about the music first, then his looks. But back to that comment - it's interesting because most black kids who grew up with MJ in the late 80s and 90s who are now artists/rappers LOVE MJ's Bad era & Dangerous and always praise him for being inspirational with his innovative dance moves/ videos and music. Among modern r&b and hiphop artists from Beyonce, Chris Brown, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Ne-Yo ,Jay-Z, Biggie Smalls, P Diddy, Kanye west, Rihanna among some - always talk about the impact that videos like Smooth Criminal had on their artistry. And I'm also wondering where the belief that black audience turned their back on MJ comes from - because Butterflies was a big hit on urban stations and among black, latino audiences. Many black journalists and people showed their support to MJ during the trials and he supported black organizations in the US (as well as Africa) by giving millions of dollars. Certainly there are people who are born in the late 50s/60s/70s who love his "soul" projects more because of the meaning in their life. I personally don't think urban audiences turned their back on MJ in the USA after Bad, I do think that journalists and mainstream USA did.

I agree with George all mightily and the reason being

what he said in this clip is exactly the reaction that was uttered throughout the community, particularly the black community who were the base of his appeal from day one, for without that, Michael's career along w/the Jackson Five as a whole never would have jumped out the gates

the proof of that reaction revealed itself by the sheer numbers

25 million sales of THRILLER in america alone, which indicates he was NOT hated here in his home country but revered and respected

and just 3 years later (since Thriller ran towards the end of 1984), w/the biggest follow up in recording industry released for an artist who was recognized as the biggest star on the planet, you go from 25 million in your own country to 6-8 million copies, a 20 million decline in sales

can we see how drastic that is?....who has ever experienced that?...nobody

see, when he become more of a commercial presence, people responded to his pending self destruction w/extreme indifference to masked the reason why he was destroying himself to begin with....even then, Michael Jackson was crying out the day he kicked off the opening leg of his first ever solo tour in Osaka, Japan......

remember the plea he cried out to the world......it was the same plea that made its presence known in songs like LEAVE ME ALONE to WILL YOU BE THERE (my favorite Michael Jackson song since the 90s) to SCREAM to STRANGER IN MOSCOW......

When the BAD TOUR began, he said, which was first reported during a issue of People Magazine that was covering the release of his album:

and I'm not talking about the distorted version of what he said that was modified in the mid 90s, but in the year 1987.....he said

"like the old indian proverb says do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his mocassins" with words in between but ended the plea by saying "for I've been bleeding a long time now"........

as if he knew he was being called, to be CHOSEN to fulfill the requirement the establishment and those associated with it outside of the community placed on this man to move beyond his natural existence, because he had been receiving those queues throughout his entire career...EVEN when he fronted the JACKSON 5 as they debuted on the scene

and because of that expectation, he was led into, forced into, and he eventually acquiesced in order to play the game, what he mentioned in the song SCREAM when he said "yall keep changin the rules, I keep playin the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"

and he acknowledged that he was a defeated man in STRANGER IN MOSCOW when he said "armegeddon of the brain, all abandoned in my fame, KGB be stalking me, just take my name and just let me be"...a defeated man in the since his musical message had been undermined, even as great as it was

well, this is what has happened over time and stands as the current reality because Michael Jackson's name and his history is now exclusively owned by the establishment

those artists you mentioned: the NEOS, the RIHANNAS, the JUSTINS, the CHRIS BROWNS, the BRITNEY SPEARS......all of them are speaking through the perspective of focusing on teh entertainment value, the excitement of that, during the stage of Michael's career and his life where the human toll was beginning to supercede that

they grew up during the age of the Pop Ascension, the very movement that "chose" Michael to be its representative, the very movement that robbed him of his essential goodness, which he admitted to in STRANGER IN MOSCOW

the reason why those songs BUTTERFLIES and YOU ROCK MY WORLD were receiving airplay on urban stations because the theme for INVINCIBLE was an attempt for Michael to be reingratiated with the black community on the level he did during his years at Motown, and when he first cut solo unleashing Off The Wall and Thriller, the audience that he lost, that he knew he lost, the audience he knew made it possible for him to sell out stadiums in Europe/Asia/Central America and Australia

those african nations that Michael visited in 1993 and 1995-96.....many of those nations had been stripped of their sovereignty by years, decades, and centuries of british colonial rule, their point of reference has been shaped by that experience

Just imagine just how awesome this situation could have been.....the authenticity could have and should have lasted longer than it actually did.....if he would have been allowed to present his talent to the world in his natural state.....that would have made his message resonate to the level of its intended promise

the tragedy is, the world was robbed of that opportunity and doesn't realize it

[Edited 9/10/12 19:29pm]

mookie said:

Scorp said:

I guarantee ANYONE if Michael would have refrained from going extreme with his plastic surgery, his follow up to THRILLER, rather he would decided to call it BAD or by another name, would have sold more than what it did, based on the enormous fanbase he generated with THRILLER

and all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

to suggest otherwise is to discredit the role his original support played in all of this, one way or the other...

THRILLER sells 25 million in the united states alone, BAD sold 6-8 million copies in america, a 20 million decline in sales....

THAT means if he would have sustained that, rather than lost it, rather than selling 25 million copies of BAD, that 20 million that he lost would have been 45 million and the momentum from that would have motivated millions more to buy it, especially when a new generation of youth started buying records......

this is why he sought to sell 100 MILLION...based on what he had sold w/THRILLER

BAD sold 16 million copies worldwide w/in 2 months after its released, on pace to outsell its predecessor by a mile, and by the time the end of 1987 approached, that's the very moment the tied began to turn

yeah, he garnered 5 number ones....yeah, its a record

those 5 singles remained on the top spot for 2 weeks on average,

they achieved that #1 status because of his stature and what he had previously accomplished....

whereas a group like Boyz II Men experienced a number one distinction for END OF THE ROAD for 16-17 weeks

now that's a "number one" number one.....for a group who had just premiered on the scene 2-3 years prior

[Edited 9/10/12 15:11pm]

What i'm getting with you is, you're one of those old school fans that resent what MJ did to this face, so that is why you go all out to undermine his career after Thriller. Why throw up what Boyz II Men did when it was a differnt era? The way songs charted in the 90's was different from the 80's. As a huge chart follower I remember that era. Mariah and Whitney and those men that did that Macarena song also had #1's that spent 16 & 14 weeks at #1 vs Madonna who ended up not having a #1 for over 9 years, so what is your point? It doesn't change the fact that all these acts were hugely successful. I'm pretty sure you aren't undermining the careers of Janet, Madonna, Whitney, Tina Turner, etc. to prop up Rihanna, who is having all these constant #1s, so why do that crap with MJ? It's obvious crap like this that infuriates me as a fan. Agendaish posters like yourself are nowhere to be seen on ther boards of MJ's peers.

the one person in this world, on the planet earth who I'm sure in the privacy of home, behind the scenes who has felt more hurt about what he did to himself wasn't a fan, wasn't the community, but the very woman who gave birth to him....his mother Katherine Jackson

I know that woman has cried a many of days

the term "old school" wasn't coined or even thought of until the Pop Ascension movement of the late 80s created it to exploit culture w/out giving the representatives who really shaped it w/in the bounds of the people never received credit for it....the music that was born from the "old school" is being used for the past 25 years to sustain the industry through the guise of sampling...

when we came up in the 70s and 80s and learned about music from the past from those who came before us, we didn't say they were old school, we learned from them....

his "older" fans didn't undermine anything, the establishment who encoruaged this man to do that to himself undermined him....I bought all of his solo albums after Thriller, and in particularly the day they were release because despite of everything I still loved the message

how all of a sudden would people who bought his records the initial 15 years of his career would look to "undermine" him.....

The reason why I brought up BOYZ II MEN?....because by Michael knowing he lost his initial audience before the 90s even hit, when he relased HISTORY, he featured BOYZ II MEN, NOTORIOUS BIG, RUN DMC, SHAQUILLE ONEAL....all these artists were experiencing or had recently experiencing great success by the audience that he had lost years before.....and he had his own sister JANET perform w/him on the song SCREAM....

that wasn't no coincidence he did that...he included these artists in an attempt to rebuild his stature w/the community, to regain the audience he knew he had lost...even in the midst of the international following he had cultivated

he also attempted to mend that bridge by calling on TEDDY RILEY to produce the album that would be titled DANGEROUS....incorporating r&b/hip hop element to structure his music with but presenting the album in full scale pop context...those 2 aspects juxtaposed w/one another, further putting the strain on the ability to mend that bridge, and that conflict is what eventually gave birth to the album HISTORY some 4 years later

what Im saying is.....when he was delivering his music with authenticity, particularly the way he did w/OFF THE WAL......he didn't HAVE to resort on being associated with contemporaries to support his album or the improve sales

that's how precarious the situation became.....

and best believe, the person who most resented the change and the transformation was none other than MICHAEL JACKSON himself.......

a man's life was destroyed by this stuff, it was never worth it by a long shot

[Edited 9/10/12 19:11pm]

[Edited 9/10/12 19:41pm]

mjscarousal said:

I dont know why yall pay Scorpios post any mind

this was an A and B conversation

[Edited 9/10/12 21:26pm]

alphastreet said:

mjscarousal said:

I agree but BAD I think has sold a little bit more than that since 2000... I think currently it sold another 6-7 million within the last decade and not to mention that is just the US.

I just looked at Wikipedia and I know that isnt a reliable source but it has it about 17.2 million and Thriller at 40.2 million US which seems to be about right.

Besides BOTDF and Invincible all of Michaels other albums are on the best selling albums of all time list. Yea I know I am stanning.... I dont care

Just what I thought, I figured that 10-11 million was the minimum even then, and he has definitely sold more copies of it since then. The re-certification for that and thriller are outstanding, that's all. And even if it's wiki, it's logically correct if not close to it.

I think Thriller is over 30 million in the US and has been for years, I hope they do something to certify it at 30 times platinum in the next year since it'll be 30 years

so you got this from wiki? so it's LOGICALLY CORRECT?

claudiax said:

OMG human nature inedite

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtfwbz_michael-jackson-human-nature-live-from-wembley-stadium_music

I know that Michael was extremely talented,but watching that all I could keep thinking was...

Damn! that man was fucking amazing!! Everytime I see a live performance of his, it makes me feel happy.

We are truely blesses to still have his music in our lives.

[Edited 9/10/12 21:37pm]

Scorp said: 25 million sales of THRILLER in america alone, which indicates he was NOT hated here in his home country but revered and respected and just 3 years later (since Thriller ran towards the end of 1984), w/the biggest follow up in recording industry released for an artist who was recognized as the biggest star on the planet, you go from 25 million in your own country to 6-8 million copies, a 20 million decline in sales

Thriller certified 29х platinum in the U.S., and is apparently already sold 30 million, Bad sold 10 million, but the drop is 3 times - not a great result, of course.

But it's the U.S. only .... in the world live another 7 billion.

Thriller - 30 million in the U.S., 35 million outside the U.S.

Bad - 10 million U.S., 23 million outside the U.S.

Dangerous - 8 million in the U.S., 23 million outside the U.S.

History - 5 million in the U.S. (10 million units), 16 million outside the United States (32 million units). Outside the U.S. album sales for MJ were huge and smooth for many years ...

[Edited 9/10/12 22:25pm]

Scorp said:

alphastreet said:

Just what I thought, I figured that 10-11 million was the minimum even then, and he has definitely sold more copies of it since then. The re-certification for that and thriller are outstanding, that's all. And even if it's wiki, it's logically correct if not close to it.

I think Thriller is over 30 million in the US and has been for years, I hope they do something to certify it at 30 times platinum in the next year since it'll be 30 years

so you got this from wiki? so it's LOGICALLY CORRECT?

If you go back and read some posts, I got it from a book about billboard figures and made a guestimitate. I never went on wiki, but turns out that a similar figure is on there too. I already know people can change that site around, thanks.

snippets of all Bad 25 songs

http://www.cede.ch/de/music-cd/frames/right.cfm?aobj=956863

Free sounds like something from Destiny or Triumph.

I'm So Blue I liked right away.

Why even bother with the remixes. These unreleased tracks from BAD are GOLD.

Didn't entirely enjoy any of those snippets. They sound exactly as what they are....demos/outtakes.

Al Copone is enjoyable due to it's Smooth Criminal relation.

I'm So Blue sounds ok too due to simplicity.

The rest sound blah - cheese i.e. Free.

It's all the same, though. Verse to chorus pop formula that he almost entirely never swayed from in his major albums. I expected as much, sure...So i shouldn't be surprised, but i guess it still bums you out when you hope for difference.

He was a pop artist through and through...a bloody good one, though!

WetDream said:

Didn't entirely enjoy any of those snippets. They sound exactly as what they are....demos/outtakes.

Al Copone is enjoyable due to it's Smooth Criminal relation.

I'm So Blue sounds ok too due to simplicity.

The rest sound blah - cheese i.e. Free.

It's all the same, though. Verse to chorus pop formula that he almost entirely never swayed from in his major albums. I expected as much, sure...So i shouldn't be surprised, but i guess it still bums you out when you hope for difference.

He was a pop artist through and through...a bloody good one, though!

So true. This was my biggest criticism of Invincible - verse-chorus-verse-chrous-bridge-chrous... with little variation. Just too formulaic.

Scorp said:

GoldDolphin said:

I dont agree with George at all, because MJ was crowned king in many african nations even when he "changed" his appearance. They still loved him regardless because people cared about the music first, then his looks. But back to that comment - it's interesting because most black kids who grew up with MJ in the late 80s and 90s who are now artists/rappers LOVE MJ's Bad era & Dangerous and always praise him for being inspirational with his innovative dance moves/ videos and music. Among modern r&b and hiphop artists from Beyonce, Chris Brown, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Ne-Yo ,Jay-Z, Biggie Smalls, P Diddy, Kanye west, Rihanna among some - always talk about the impact that videos like Smooth Criminal had on their artistry. And I'm also wondering where the belief that black audience turned their back on MJ comes from - because Butterflies was a big hit on urban stations and among black, latino audiences. Many black journalists and people showed their support to MJ during the trials and he supported black organizations in the US (as well as Africa) by giving millions of dollars. Certainly there are people who are born in the late 50s/60s/70s who love his "soul" projects more because of the meaning in their life. I personally don't think urban audiences turned their back on MJ in the USA after Bad, I do think that journalists and mainstream USA did.

I agree with George all mightily and the reason being

what he said in this clip is exactly the reaction that was uttered throughout the community, particularly the black community who were the base of his appeal from day one, for without that, Michael's career along w/the Jackson Five as a whole never would have jumped out the gates

the proof of that reaction revealed itself by the sheer numbers

25 million sales of THRILLER in america alone, which indicates he was NOT hated here in his home country but revered and respected

and just 3 years later (since Thriller ran towards the end of 1984), w/the biggest follow up in recording industry released for an artist who was recognized as the biggest star on the planet, you go from 25 million in your own country to 6-8 million copies, a 20 million decline in sales

can we see how drastic that is?....who has ever experienced that?...nobody

see, when he become more of a commercial presence, people responded to his pending self destruction w/extreme indifference to masked the reason why he was destroying himself to begin with....even then, Michael Jackson was crying out the day he kicked off the opening leg of his first ever solo tour in Osaka, Japan......

remember the plea he cried out to the world......it was the same plea that made its presence known in songs like LEAVE ME ALONE to WILL YOU BE THERE (my favorite Michael Jackson song since the 90s) to SCREAM to STRANGER IN MOSCOW......

When the BAD TOUR began, he said, which was first reported during a issue of People Magazine that was covering the release of his album:

and I'm not talking about the distorted version of what he said that was modified in the mid 90s, but in the year 1987.....he said

"like the old indian proverb says do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his mocassins" with words in between but ended the plea by saying "for I've been bleeding a long time now"........

as if he knew he was being called, to be CHOSEN to fulfill the requirement the establishment and those associated with it outside of the community placed on this man to move beyond his natural existence, because he had been receiving those queues throughout his entire career...EVEN when he fronted the JACKSON 5 as they debuted on the scene

and because of that expectation, he was led into, forced into, and he eventually acquiesced in order to play the game, what he mentioned in the song SCREAM when he said "yall keep changin the rules, I keep playin the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"

and he acknowledged that he was a defeated man in STRANGER IN MOSCOW when he said "armegeddon of the brain, all abandoned in my fame, KGB be stalking me, just take my name and just let me be"...a defeated man in the since his musical message had been undermined, even as great as it was

well, this is what has happened over time and stands as the current reality because Michael Jackson's name and his history is now exclusively owned by the establishment

those artists you mentioned: the NEOS, the RIHANNAS, the JUSTINS, the CHRIS BROWNS, the BRITNEY SPEARS......all of them are speaking through the perspective of focusing on teh entertainment value, the excitement of that, during the stage of Michael's career and his life where the human toll was beginning to supercede that

they grew up during the age of the Pop Ascension, the very movement that "chose" Michael to be its representative, the very movement that robbed him of his essential goodness, which he admitted to in STRANGER IN MOSCOW

the reason why those songs BUTTERFLIES and YOU ROCK MY WORLD were receiving airplay on urban stations because the theme for INVINCIBLE was an attempt for Michael to be reingratiated with the black community on the level he did during his years at Motown, and when he first cut solo unleashing Off The Wall and Thriller, the audience that he lost, that he knew he lost, the audience he knew made it possible for him to sell out stadiums in Europe/Asia/Central America and Australia

those african nations that Michael visited in 1993 and 1995-96.....many of those nations had been stripped of their sovereignty by years, decades, and centuries of british colonial rule, their point of reference has been shaped by that experience

Just imagine just how awesome this situation could have been.....the authenticity could have and should have lasted longer than it actually did.....if he would have been allowed to present his talent to the world in his natural state.....that would have made his message resonate to the level of its intended promise

the tragedy is, the world was robbed of that opportunity and doesn't realize it

[Edited 9/10/12 19:29pm]

Im not going to continue this disucssion because you always seem to have negative things to say about Mike, it seems as if you stayed in the Thriller era and didn't want to see the aristic growth he made in Bad, Dangerous, HIStory eras which is a shame because those are the eras that people are now looking at again, because those eras were misrepresented because of his "face" the tabloid shit and not the music, but now people are looking at his artistic maturity. It's not strange that "Man in the mirror" was the first song fans turned to when he died, or that public started listening to Morphine, Stranger in Moscow, Who is it and actually understand the underrated musical genius he was. MJ was a proud black man and other black people trying to make him less black because of a disease are being no better than the white journalists who mocked him out of racism and missunderstanding of the african-american musical tradition. The king of pop (popular forms of music - soul,rock & pop) is a black man and he's known all around the world and is respected. He opened doors for many other black artists, so get over the fact that he had vitiligo and got some nosejobs. He's not the only black person who has done surgery on his face and all of the Jacksons have done it. From papa Joe to youngest sister Janet.

GoldDolphin said:

Scorp said:

I agree with George all mightily and the reason being

what he said in this clip is exactly the reaction that was uttered throughout the community, particularly the black community who were the base of his appeal from day one, for without that, Michael's career along w/the Jackson Five as a whole never would have jumped out the gates

the proof of that reaction revealed itself by the sheer numbers

25 million sales of THRILLER in america alone, which indicates he was NOT hated here in his home country but revered and respected

and just 3 years later (since Thriller ran towards the end of 1984), w/the biggest follow up in recording industry released for an artist who was recognized as the biggest star on the planet, you go from 25 million in your own country to 6-8 million copies, a 20 million decline in sales

can we see how drastic that is?....who has ever experienced that?...nobody

see, when he become more of a commercial presence, people responded to his pending self destruction w/extreme indifference to masked the reason why he was destroying himself to begin with....even then, Michael Jackson was crying out the day he kicked off the opening leg of his first ever solo tour in Osaka, Japan......

remember the plea he cried out to the world......it was the same plea that made its presence known in songs like LEAVE ME ALONE to WILL YOU BE THERE (my favorite Michael Jackson song since the 90s) to SCREAM to STRANGER IN MOSCOW......

When the BAD TOUR began, he said, which was first reported during a issue of People Magazine that was covering the release of his album:

and I'm not talking about the distorted version of what he said that was modified in the mid 90s, but in the year 1987.....he said

"like the old indian proverb says do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his mocassins" with words in between but ended the plea by saying "for I've been bleeding a long time now"........

as if he knew he was being called, to be CHOSEN to fulfill the requirement the establishment and those associated with it outside of the community placed on this man to move beyond his natural existence, because he had been receiving those queues throughout his entire career...EVEN when he fronted the JACKSON 5 as they debuted on the scene

and because of that expectation, he was led into, forced into, and he eventually acquiesced in order to play the game, what he mentioned in the song SCREAM when he said "yall keep changin the rules, I keep playin the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"

and he acknowledged that he was a defeated man in STRANGER IN MOSCOW when he said "armegeddon of the brain, all abandoned in my fame, KGB be stalking me, just take my name and just let me be"...a defeated man in the since his musical message had been undermined, even as great as it was

well, this is what has happened over time and stands as the current reality because Michael Jackson's name and his history is now exclusively owned by the establishment

those artists you mentioned: the NEOS, the RIHANNAS, the JUSTINS, the CHRIS BROWNS, the BRITNEY SPEARS......all of them are speaking through the perspective of focusing on teh entertainment value, the excitement of that, during the stage of Michael's career and his life where the human toll was beginning to supercede that

they grew up during the age of the Pop Ascension, the very movement that "chose" Michael to be its representative, the very movement that robbed him of his essential goodness, which he admitted to in STRANGER IN MOSCOW

the reason why those songs BUTTERFLIES and YOU ROCK MY WORLD were receiving airplay on urban stations because the theme for INVINCIBLE was an attempt for Michael to be reingratiated with the black community on the level he did during his years at Motown, and when he first cut solo unleashing Off The Wall and Thriller, the audience that he lost, that he knew he lost, the audience he knew made it possible for him to sell out stadiums in Europe/Asia/Central America and Australia

those african nations that Michael visited in 1993 and 1995-96.....many of those nations had been stripped of their sovereignty by years, decades, and centuries of british colonial rule, their point of reference has been shaped by that experience

Just imagine just how awesome this situation could have been.....the authenticity could have and should have lasted longer than it actually did.....if he would have been allowed to present his talent to the world in his natural state.....that would have made his message resonate to the level of its intended promise

the tragedy is, the world was robbed of that opportunity and doesn't realize it

[Edited 9/10/12 19:29pm]

Im not going to continue this disucssion because you always seem to have negative things to say about Mike, it seems as if you stayed in the Thriller era and didn't want to see the aristic growth he made in Bad, Dangerous, HIStory eras which is a shame because those are the eras that people are now looking at again, because those eras were misrepresented because of his "face" the tabloid shit and not the music, but now people are looking at his artistic maturity. It's not strange that "Man in the mirror" was the first song fans turned to when he died, or that public started listening to Morphine, Stranger in Moscow, Who is it and actually understand the underrated musical genius he was. MJ was a proud black man and other black people trying to make him less black because of a disease are being no better than the white journalists who mocked him out of racism and missunderstanding of the african-american musical tradition. The king of pop (popular forms of music - soul,rock & pop) is a black man and he's known all around the world and is respected. He opened doors for many other black artists, so get over the fact that he had vitiligo and got some nosejobs. He's not the only black person who has done surgery on his face and all of the Jacksons have done it. From papa Joe to youngest sister Janet.

Agree...

Speaking as a African American myself I think that is very very very SAD when other black people do this.....

Dont get me wrong their are some black celebrities who in fact do go the Euro saxon route but Michael was definitly NOT one of them (This man gave MILLIONS to black charities, charities in Africa and went BACK to his hometown and gave back and always spoke how proud he was to be black UNLIKE alot of other black celebrities in the public eye that I wont name) and his appeal was universal and everyone loved him because he was a great artist regardless of what he looked like.......PERIOD.

ForgottenPassword said:

WetDream said:

Didn't entirely enjoy any of those snippets. They sound exactly as what they are....demos/outtakes.

Al Copone is enjoyable due to it's Smooth Criminal relation.

I'm So Blue sounds ok too due to simplicity.

The rest sound blah - cheese i.e. Free.

It's all the same, though. Verse to chorus pop formula that he almost entirely never swayed from in his major albums. I expected as much, sure...So i shouldn't be surprised, but i guess it still bums you out when you hope for difference.

He was a pop artist through and through...a bloody good one, though!

So true. This was my biggest criticism of Invincible - verse-chorus-verse-chrous-bridge-chrous... with little variation. Just too formulaic.

Invincible was the absolute worst for it! Absolutely generic beyond pop belief, despite whether you still enjoy some tracks or not. I think only Whatever Happens swayed a SMALL amount from this.

Nvncible1 said:

ALL the uptempo song sound exactly the same. ALL the slower songs sound the same. Only one that sounds unique to me is AL CAPone. That's my jam. Cant wait till somebody edits it with the smooth criminal video

And this is why Al Capone got worked on more while the others didn't. I still like all of the unreleased tracks here and Price of Fame sounds completed or close to it. I'm happy with these and wish they would've done away with the remixes and added more unreleased stuff.

ForgottenPassword said:

WetDream said:

Didn't entirely enjoy any of those snippets. They sound exactly as what they are....demos/outtakes.

Al Copone is enjoyable due to it's Smooth Criminal relation.

I'm So Blue sounds ok too due to simplicity.

The rest sound blah - cheese i.e. Free.

It's all the same, though. Verse to chorus pop formula that he almost entirely never swayed from in his major albums. I expected as much, sure...So i shouldn't be surprised, but i guess it still bums you out when you hope for difference.

He was a pop artist through and through...a bloody good one, though!

So true. This was my biggest criticism of Invincible - verse-chorus-verse-chrous-bridge-chrous... with little variation. Just too formulaic.

Wow. Critical of what is the universally accepted way of constructing a modern pop song? Damn you MJ for never knowing what to do. If only he'd listened to the likes of you two and not say a James Brown or a Stevie or the Brothers Gibb. It's a crying shame he learnt nothing from his time at Motown

fucking hell.

Marrk said:

ForgottenPassword said:

So true. This was my biggest criticism of Invincible - verse-chorus-verse-chrous-bridge-chrous... with little variation. Just too formulaic.

Wow. Critical of what is the universally accepted way of constructing a modern pop song? Damn you MJ for never knowing what to do. If only he'd listened to the likes of you two and not say a James Brown or a Stevie or the Brothers Gibb. It's a crying shame he learnt nothing from his time at Motown

fucking hell.

Some people just criticize for the heck of it.

These snippets sound pretty good to me. "Al Capone" sounds like it has a bit of "WBSS", "BODY" and "Rhythm is gonna getcha" in it.

Love "Price Of Fame"."I'm so blue" sounds nice as well.

"Free" is the kind of run of the mill ballad that i usually don't care much about.

i dont know why some are dissopointed, im very impressed. i think the tracks are great! my favorites are im so blue and price of fame. the others are great too!

im so blue is absolutely beautiful,

Price of Fame shows an insite to michaels feelings about fame, which i htink is very cool/unique

Al Capone is my jam! that song is pure gold, i love it.

Free is a beautiful ballad, its more layed back and relaxes

Abortion Papers is very unique, and conveys a really deep message.

Dont Be Messin Round shows an insite into Michaels creative process, and shows michael comign up with lyrics and creating.. almost like a jam session.

Love all the Tracks!! cant wait to hear more of these unheard gems!