That girl done lost her mind, when she retweed a tweet saying Janet was jealous of her being offered a couple of B-grade movies.

Azz said:

dag said:

I am not aware of his toilet problems, but I don't know what that has to do with him spending time with his kids.

Are you trying to say that all the kids growing up with just one parent don't have a normal childhood?

From what the kids have been saying, despite being busy and the most famous man, he took a lot of time for them, cooking for them, playing with them. The kids have said many times that he was the best father you can ask for and that he was a "normal" father. And through the masks, he even managed to secure them anonymity in the public so they could go places. I think given his fame and all that, they had more "normal" childhood than one would expect.

I never said that one parent equals an abnormal childhood. But it is an aspect of a regular or typical childhood, to have both parent figures.

You can't really go by what the kids say. Their not going to know any different, nor are they going to suggest that their Michael was in anyway not there for them.

[Edited 7/19/12 11:01am]

Come on! Even Bashit admitted that it "makes him weep" when he sees Michael with his kids.

I know many kids who have both parents and both of them suck.

Emancipation89 said:

Azz said:

1) During the trial it was noted that Michael was somewhat frail - he was unable to go to the toilet, and had severe fungi on his feet.

2) I was suggesting that she hardly had a normal childhood. They didn't have a mother. And there farther was the most famous man on earth, and extremely busy, and evidently strugling in his later life (with SEVERE money problems, addiction etc)

[Edited 7/19/12 10:37am]

Jesus christ, it's one thing to say MJ had insomnia problems and he was overly dependent on drugs, but where did you gather that bolded part? Because, here's a little newsflash: NO ONE can wake up and walk to bathroom when they are under general anesthesia, so you have to wear either diapers or attach a condom catheter to collect urine in a bottle because, well, you're un-fucking-conscious. That is completely different matter than someone who is not capable of going to bathroom.

And had severe fungi on his feet...seriously, even if that is factual information, this is 2012 people, fungi on your feet is not that big of a problem. Surprise: You can have diabetes, fungi, or even skin dermatitis, but you can still be a good parent.

Fair enough. But the fact that he was under anasthesia in the first place (amongst many other issues), doesn't tell u something?

[Edited 7/19/12 11:28am]

Azz said:

Emancipation89 said:

Jesus christ, it's one thing to say MJ had insomnia problems and he was overly dependent on drugs, but where did you gather that bolded part? Because, here's a little newsflash: NO ONE can wake up and walk to bathroom when they are under general anesthesia, so you have to wear either diapers or attach a condom catheter to collect urine in a bottle because, well, you're un-fucking-conscious. That is completely different matter than someone who is not capable of going to bathroom.

And had severe fungi on his feet...seriously, even if that is factual information, this is 2012 people, fungi on your feet is not that big of a problem. Surprise: You can have diabetes, fungi, or even skin dermatitis, but you can still be a good parent.

Fair enough. But that's irrelivant. Someone who needs to be under strong anesthesia to just get to sleep so they can get out of $500 million debt, by doing 50 dates at 02 arena, consiting hours of dancing; isn't exactly the ideal parent.

But I am not sure what debts and concerts have to do with what kind of parent he was. Don't forget that after Prince was born, he basically put his career aside and became full time father. In between, he only released Invincible.

I wonder how you rate Madonna as a parent . She spent so many years on tour, making so many albums since she had kids.

dag said:

Azz said:

I never said that one parent equals an abnormal childhood. But it is an aspect of a regular or typical childhood, to have both parent figures.

You can't really go by what the kids say. Their not going to know any different, nor are they going to suggest that their Michael was in anyway not there for them.

[Edited 7/19/12 11:01am]

Come on! Even Bashit admitted that it "makes him weep" when he sees Michael with his kids.

I know many kids who have both parents and both of them suck.

Uh...

Azz said:

That girl done lost her mind, when she retweed a tweet saying Janet was jealous of her being offered a couple of B-grade movies.

I've just checked her twitter and haven't seen anything like that.

dag said:

Azz said:

That girl done lost her mind, when she retweed a tweet saying Janet was jealous of her being offered a couple of B-grade movies.

I've just checked her twitter and haven't seen anything like that.

I'm sure you won't be able to find the stuff she said about Randy aswell.

God. Am I talking to 5 year olds? Or is it just your level of delusion.

Azz said:

Emancipation89 said:

Jesus christ, it's one thing to say MJ had insomnia problems and he was overly dependent on drugs, but where did you gather that bolded part? Because, here's a little newsflash: NO ONE can wake up and walk to bathroom when they are under general anesthesia, so you have to wear either diapers or attach a condom catheter to collect urine in a bottle because, well, you're un-fucking-conscious. That is completely different matter than someone who is not capable of going to bathroom.

And had severe fungi on his feet...seriously, even if that is factual information, this is 2012 people, fungi on your feet is not that big of a problem. Surprise: You can have diabetes, fungi, or even skin dermatitis, but you can still be a good parent.

Fair enough. But the fact that he was under anasthesia in the first place (amongst many other issues), doesn't tell u something?

[Edited 7/19/12 11:28am]

It shows me how desperate he was to go to sleep.

dag said:

Azz said:

Fair enough. But the fact that he was under anasthesia in the first place (amongst many other issues), doesn't tell u something?

[Edited 7/19/12 11:28am]

It shows me how desperate he was to go to sleep.

It shows me there is something deeply wrong.

Azz said:

Emancipation89 said:

Jesus christ, it's one thing to say MJ had insomnia problems and he was overly dependent on drugs, but where did you gather that bolded part? Because, here's a little newsflash: NO ONE can wake up and walk to bathroom when they are under general anesthesia, so you have to wear either diapers or attach a condom catheter to collect urine in a bottle because, well, you're un-fucking-conscious. That is completely different matter than someone who is not capable of going to bathroom.

And had severe fungi on his feet...seriously, even if that is factual information, this is 2012 people, fungi on your feet is not that big of a problem. Surprise: You can have diabetes, fungi, or even skin dermatitis, but you can still be a good parent.

Fair enough. But the fact that he was under anasthesia in the first place (amongst many other issues), doesn't tell u something?

[Edited 7/19/12 11:28am]

It doesnt make you a bad father, having experienced that with my father - I can tell you first hand the anasthesia is visible during night time mostly because they have so much pain they can't sleep. My mother was deeply affected by that, but I didnt notice it because that's what parents are supposed to do. I think MJ was a great dad, he could have kept touring but he wanted to raise his kids. He went to Ireland & Bahrain to be able to give his children a normal childhood outside the hollyweird circles. He's been having strong pains since the 90s and he almost died back then as well but he had better doctors that took care of him, he was exhausted and tired but he was living for his kids. His mistake was to do those 50 concerts ,he should have done the 27 first and AEG should have taken care of him 24/7 and done everything he wanted.

[Edited 7/19/12 12:06pm]

Emancipation89 said:

Azz said:

Fair enough. But the fact that he was under anasthesia in the first place (amongst many other issues), doesn't tell u something?

[Edited 7/19/12 11:28am]

The fact that he had to inject strong anesthetic drugs to fall asleep at night - It's tragic, it's certainly not a "normal" way to fall asleep, it's highly risky and but with this fact alone, I cannot determine whether he was still doing the best he could for his kids or not, unless, I know for sure that he set this as an example to his kids. He was advised wrongly by the doctors, I guess I should blame him for being stupid, not making the best choices for himself and ppl around him. But I wonder how many doctors actually had the guts to warn him what he was doing every night can cost his life - especially with a doctor who can't even perform CPR!

I bet in reality (I know a lot of ppl will give me shit for this but here it goes), what a lot of adults with kids are doing on a daily basis isn't that much different from MJ's case after all. Some of them shove some big mac and sugary donuts down their throats on a daily basis even after they're advised to lower their cholesterol level. They are aware that they can drop dead from heart attack any day, but they still do it.

In Michael Jackson's case, it was the only way he thought it was possible for him to get some good night sleep, so that he can go to rehearsal the next day, so that he can have some kick ass concerts and proudly show what a fabulous performer he is to his kids. He certainly didn't make the best choices, but I don't know if I can actually make a judgement that he was a bad parent.

'Among other issues'; such as debt perhaps? - Whether he was in debt or not, and whether the amount was $500 million or 5 billion, it doesn't really matter unless you have a proof that he forced his children to pay off his debt when they're older. Hell my dad was in debt for a long time too, I was worried for him and maybe I complained about it many times when I was little that he wasn't able to buy me a pony but certainly, I don't consider him a bad parent for that.

In the end, I don't really know how he was as a father. All I know is his kids loved their dad very much. I get what you're saying, if he doesn't sound like an ideal parent to you, that's your opinion which I'm not here to convince otherwise.

[Edited 7/19/12 12:06pm]

An actual intelligent post by an MJ fan; who would have thought...

I'm honestly not trying to insuate MJ was a bad father per-se, but of course, he had serious limitations and issues.

What I want to know, is why everyone trusts these clearly sinister people.

It's simply ridiculous to praise them for clearing Michael's debt. Why would anyone support them, I honestly can't comprehend.

[Edited 7/19/12 12:10pm]

Azz said:

Ottensen said:

Sorry to hear this is happening. She appears to have a very strong will, that young lady.

But beyond this bump on the Jackson Family relationship road, instinct tells me that Paris will be the one of those children who grows up into very driven, no-nonsense person. She possesses clarity in the way she expresses herself & appears to have leadership capabilities in comparison to other Jackson children. Out of all the children in her family, of her age, she seems like she will be the one to watch (in terms of achievement). She may or may not enter and remain in show business, but I definitely see her being the one in the future responsible for maintaining her father's legacy, and likely being the boss lady that the brothers and cousins will answer to.

She strikes me as ignorant and self-important. Also slightly attention seeking. Definitely one of those children who grow up and fall off the rails. Especially without proper parenthood. Michael was obviously busy very-often, suffering from addiction to the point where his personal hygiene was exremely low (Also, from the trial, I gathered he spent alot of his time by himself in his room). Not to mention, they are now in the care of Katherine, who is far too old to be brining up even more kids.

[Edited 7/19/12 10:07am]

Azz said:

Ottensen said:

Sorry to hear this is happening. She appears to have a very strong will, that young lady.

But beyond this bump on the Jackson Family relationship road, instinct tells me that Paris will be the one of those children who grows up into very driven, no-nonsense person. She possesses clarity in the way she expresses herself & appears to have leadership capabilities in comparison to other Jackson children. Out of all the children in her family, of her age, she seems like she will be the one to watch (in terms of achievement). She may or may not enter and remain in show business, but I definitely see her being the one in the future responsible for maintaining her father's legacy, and likely being the boss lady that the brothers and cousins will answer to.

She strikes me as ignorant and self-important. Also slightly attention seeking. Definitely one of those children who grow up and fall off the rails. Especially without proper parenthood. Michael was obviously busy very-often, suffering from addiction to the point where his personal hygiene was exremely low (Also, from the trial, I gathered he spent alot of his time by himself in his room). Not to mention, they are now in the care of Katherine, who is far too old to be brining up even more kids.

[Edited 7/19/12 10:07am]

I do agree with somewhat your perspective on Paris. She definitly appears to love the spotlight and attention. However, that doesnt necessarily mean she will turn out bad as she gets older but by the looks of how things are going out now it appears she needs alot more guidance. From the movie deal, from twitter, interviews, etc.

NaughtyKitty said:

Azz said:

She strikes me as ignorant and self-important. Also slightly attention seeking. Definitely one of those children who grow up and fall off the rails.

[Edited 7/19/12 10:07am]

I'll agree with you about the slightly attention seeking. But ignorant and self-important, and one who will grow up and fall off the rails? You got all that just from her tweet? Really?

Honey, I don't even bother. I just sit back and enjoy the entertainment

Azz said:

dag said:

It shows me how desperate he was to go to sleep.

It shows me there is something deeply wrong.

Elaborate?

Ottensen said:

NaughtyKitty said:

I'll agree with you about the slightly attention seeking. But ignorant and self-important, and one who will grow up and fall off the rails? You got all that just from her tweet? Really?

Honey, I don't even bother. I just sit back and enjoy the entertainment

Well. I was exaggerating, in reply to a comment. But this is the girl who disrespects her uncle on twitter, questions her fathers parenting, thinks one of the most successful people alive is jealous of her, and posts bikini pictures of herself on the internet at the age 14.

mjscarousal said:

Azz said:

It shows me there is something deeply wrong.

Elaborate?

A lot of things I heard surrounding Michael's health and doings in the trial, were extremely shcocking to me.

Azz said:

dag said:

What are you talking about?

And Michael's children are well-brought up and you don't achieve that without being a good parent.

1) During the trial it was noted that Michael was somewhat frail - he was unable to go to the toilet, and had severe fungi on his feet.

2) I was suggesting that she hardly had a normal childhood. They didn't have a mother. And there farther was the most famous man on earth, and extremely busy, and evidently strugling in his later life (with SEVERE money problems, addiction etc)

[Edited 7/19/12 10:37am]

Where did you get this information from? Because I certainly have NEVER heard this. Michael was frail during the trial but besides that all these other claims is just gossip talk. You made a statement in another thread that was true, insisting that everything we know is all media said. So you cant possibly go back around and insist that something you heard is 100 percent true. For what it appeared, Michael took very good care of himself. Wore a clean suit, his hair was groomed etc. Having fungi on your feet doesnt mean you have bad hygene fungus can be caught in alot of ways not specifically just only for not washing up.

Azz said:

dag said:

I am not aware of his toilet problems, but I don't know what that has to do with him spending time with his kids.

Are you trying to say that all the kids growing up with just one parent don't have a normal childhood?

From what the kids have been saying, despite being busy and the most famous man, he took a lot of time for them, cooking for them, playing with them. The kids have said many times that he was the best father you can ask for and that he was a "normal" father. And through the masks, he even managed to secure them anonymity in the public so they could go places. I think given his fame and all that, they had more "normal" childhood than one would expect.

I never said that one parent equals an abnormal childhood. But it is an aspect of a regular or typical childhood, to have both parent figures.

You can't really go by what the kids say. Their not going to know any different, nor are they going to suggest that their Michael was in anyway not there for them.

[Edited 7/19/12 11:01am]

I this thread

mjscarousal said:

Azz said:

1) During the trial it was noted that Michael was somewhat frail - he was unable to go to the toilet, and had severe fungi on his feet.

2) I was suggesting that she hardly had a normal childhood. They didn't have a mother. And there farther was the most famous man on earth, and extremely busy, and evidently strugling in his later life (with SEVERE money problems, addiction etc)

[Edited 7/19/12 10:37am]

Where did you get this information from? Because I certainly have NEVER heard this. Michael was frail during the trial but besides that all these other claims is just gossip talk. You made a statement in another thread that was true, insisting that everything we know is all media said. So you cant possibly go back around and insist that something you heard is 100 percent true. For what it appeared, Michael took very good care of himself. Wore a clean suit, his hair was groomed etc. Having fungi on your feet doesnt mean you have bad hygene fungus can be caught in alot of ways not specifically just only for not washing up.

From the court case not the 2005 trial. I remember hearing that he was wearing a condom cathadar, which was already explained. And I also remember it being said that he had fungi and bad hygiene.

Azz said:

mjscarousal said:

Elaborate?

A lot of things I heard surrounding Michael's health and doings in the trial, were extremely shcocking to me.

What does that have to do with Michael havine insomnia issues? I'm honestly trying to understand your perspective because it seems your formulating your perspectives from gossip and mixing unlike things together. What happened during the trial has nothing to do with Michael taking Propofol which was specifically done because he had sleep issues. Was it ethical? No but he was not a drug addict like some here are claiming and Im TIRED of that. You can not get addicted to Propofol. It is a anesthetic.. not a stimulate or depressant. He cant get any senstation from it, it just puts you to sleep

GoldDolphin said:

And BLANKET is Michaels kid, I dont understand how people can even doubt that. His mannerisms, his eyes, his nose, his voice, his face and they straighten the kids hair so it's not as wavy as it naturally is. There are that a south african woman named prudence solomon who was a friend of Michaels is the mother of Blanket.

...and how o you know that they straighten the child's hair? Sources? Proof?

Ottensen said:

GoldDolphin said:

And BLANKET is Michaels kid, I dont understand how people can even doubt that. His mannerisms, his eyes, his nose, his voice, his face and they straighten the kids hair so it's not as wavy as it naturally is. There are that a south african woman named prudence solomon who was a friend of Michaels is the mother of Blanket.

...and how o you know that they straighten the child's hair? Sources? Proof?

mjscarousal said:

Azz said:

A lot of things I heard surrounding Michael's health and doings in the trial, were extremely shcocking to me.

What does that have to do with Michael havine insomnia issues? I'm honestly trying to understand your perspective because it seems your formulating your perspectives from gossip and mixing unlike things together. What happened during the trial has nothing to do with Michael taking Propofol which was specifically done because he had sleep issues. Was it ethical? No but he was not a drug addict like some here are claiming and Im TIRED of that. You can not get addicted to Propofol. It is a anesthetic.. not a stimulate or depressant. He cant get any senstation from it, it just puts you to sleep

He had sleeping problems but also problems with his backpain and feet, legs, the scalp and so on - that's a major factor as to why he couldnt sleep for a long time. Why do people always forget that.

Azz said:

mjscarousal said:

Where did you get this information from? Because I certainly have NEVER heard this. Michael was frail during the trial but besides that all these other claims is just gossip talk. You made a statement in another thread that was true, insisting that everything we know is all media said. So you cant possibly go back around and insist that something you heard is 100 percent true. For what it appeared, Michael took very good care of himself. Wore a clean suit, his hair was groomed etc. Having fungi on your feet doesnt mean you have bad hygene fungus can be caught in alot of ways not specifically just only for not washing up.

From the court case not the 2005 trial. I remember hearing that he was wearing a condom cathadar, which was already explained. And I also remember it being said that he had fungi and bad hygiene.

What source did you get this from? Was there statements made by his lawyer? Because Ive never heard his lawyer say anything of the sort.. Your talking about the 1993 court case?

C'mon Azz

and even if he DID have bad hygiene how does that make him a bad parent? He provided for his children and raise them to be well mannered. He made sure they got their education and stayed out the spotlight. I think he was a very good father to his children despite his flaws.

GoldDolphin said:

mjscarousal said:

What does that have to do with Michael havine insomnia issues? I'm honestly trying to understand your perspective because it seems your formulating your perspectives from gossip and mixing unlike things together. What happened during the trial has nothing to do with Michael taking Propofol which was specifically done because he had sleep issues. Was it ethical? No but he was not a drug addict like some here are claiming and Im TIRED of that. You can not get addicted to Propofol. It is a anesthetic.. not a stimulate or depressant. He cant get any senstation from it, it just puts you to sleep

He had sleeping problems but also problems with his backpain and feet, legs, the scalp and so on - that's a major factor as to why he couldnt sleep for a long time. Why do people always forget that.

Didnt forget anything that isnt the point being made here.

The debate is not over other added issues that might have caused the insominia. I just specifically stated why he was taking propofol originally. It wasnt because he was an addict which is absurd in this cause because you can't get addicted to anesthia............................. However, in his his mind it was for health reasons whether it was ethical or not.

You can not get addicted to anethesia which was the only claim I made. Michael had Lupus, mild arthritis and suffered from other injuries through out his career but the AUTOSPY showed that Michael was in GOOD health during the time he was preparing for his shows.

mjscarousal said:

Azz said:

1) During the trial it was noted that Michael was somewhat frail - he was unable to go to the toilet, and had severe fungi on his feet.

2) I was suggesting that she hardly had a normal childhood. They didn't have a mother. And there farther was the most famous man on earth, and extremely busy, and evidently strugling in his later life (with SEVERE money problems, addiction etc)

[Edited 7/19/12 10:37am]

Where did you get this information from? Because I certainly have NEVER heard this. Michael was frail during the trial but besides that all these other claims is just gossip talk. You made a statement in another thread that was true, insisting that everything we know is all media said. So you cant possibly go back around and insist that something you heard is 100 percent true. For what it appeared, Michael took very good care of himself. Wore a clean suit, his hair was groomed etc. Having fungi on your feet doesnt mean you have bad hygene fungus can be caught in alot of ways not specifically just only for not washing up.

I think Azz is getting this info from the documentary Conrad Murray did that aired after the trial. In it Murray claimes that Michael wet the bed, had poor hygiene, toe fungus, etc...

[Edited 7/19/12 13:09pm]

mjscarousal said:

Azz said:

From the court case not the 2005 trial. I remember hearing that he was wearing a condom cathadar, which was already explained. And I also remember it being said that he had fungi and bad hygiene.

What source did you get this from? Was there statements made by his lawyer? Because Ive never heard his lawyer say anything of the sort.. Your talking about the 1993 court case?

C'mon Azz

and even if he DID have bad hygiene how does that make him a bad parent? He provided for his children and raise them to be well mannered. He made sure they got their education and stayed out the spotlight. I think he was a very good father to his children despite his flaws.

No. The Conrad Murray case. I'm not saying he was a bad father, with or without his flaws...........

argh.