Reading the James Brown thread got me wanting to know about the many R&B and soul beefs and or altercations from the past. List them hear:

James Brown had a few himself with Joe Tex, Wilson Pickett and Solomon Burke.

Apparently Joe Tex had one with Little Willie John about the song "Fever." He said he had to sell it to the label they were on at the time "King" for $300.

Let's go!!

Tex originally wrote "Fever"?

HuMpThAnG said:

Tex originally wrote "Fever"?

Joe claims that while staying in New York he wrote and sold the rights to the now classic song Fever. Joe said he had the words on paper and was asked to provide a tune, so he quickly improvised a tune based on Sixteen tons (a No.1 for Tennessee Ernie Ford in November 1955). He was behind on his rent and sold the song for $300 to Henry Glover of King Records. Little Willie John’s King recording of Fever hit the charts in May 1956 and the song went on to become a standard. The named writers, John Davenport (a pseudonym for Otis Blackwell) and Eddie Cooley, and others have strongly disputed Joe’s claim. Joe himself recorded two Davenport/Cooley songs for King and by September 1956 had written and cut Pneumonia his own answer record to Fever. This was the first of many songs which showed Joe’s ability to respond quickly to hits of the day in his own style.

Joe claimed he wrote like 30 hit songs for other artists on King Records but he had to sell his songwriting rights and they usually would give it to other artists that sold more records. King didn't really promote Joe and he bounced sometime in 1964 right after his altercation with James during his so-called homegoing concert in Georgia.

----

I don't know if it's much of a beef but Marvin Gaye didn't think of James Brown too highly after Tammi Terrell told him about James' violent abuse towards her. Marvin would say that he remained cordial with James but kept a distance because he was afraid of pouncing on him.

----

Marvin had mad beef with Lou Rawls, Teddy Pendergrass and Rick James. With Lou, it was mainly because the Grammys had given some honors to Lou that he felt was given to the wrong individual. Ironically Lou Rawls' son would sue Marvin's son for having his dog leashed on him.

With Teddy, the dude (Ted) practically stole his image (the afro and beard combo), his performance style and even parts of his sound and he dated Janis (after Marvin and her had separated in 1979). Marvin was none too happy about that. Nor was he happy when he heard Janis was dating Rick. At the 1983 Grammys after receiving his Grammy for "Sexual Healing" in which Rick presented to him, according to Zeola Gaye, Marvin whispered in his ear "We need to talk as men. As long as you are with her, you need to take care of her." Of course Rick didn't stay with Janis that long anyway because he was fooling around with Linda Blair.

----

Wilson Pickett shot at O'Kelly and Rudolph Isley after a betting game went bust.

[Edited 7/13/12 19:26pm]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Tex originally wrote "Fever"?

Joe claims that while staying in New York he wrote and sold the rights to the now classic song Fever. Joe said he had the words on paper and was asked to provide a tune, so he quickly improvised a tune based on Sixteen tons (a No.1 for Tennessee Ernie Ford in November 1955). He was behind on his rent and sold the song for $300 to Henry Glover of King Records. Little Willie John’s King recording of Fever hit the charts in May 1956 and the song went on to become a standard. The named writers, John Davenport (a pseudonym for Otis Blackwell) and Eddie Cooley, and others have strongly disputed Joe’s claim. Joe himself recorded two Davenport/Cooley songs for King and by September 1956 had written and cut Pneumonia his own answer record to Fever. This was the first of many songs which showed Joe’s ability to respond quickly to hits of the day in his own style.

Yeah he claimed this happens numerous times. It's interesting that Otis Blackwell said "I don't remember that." Who knows if it was a story Joe thought of himself. I wonder how he felt about James taking "Baby You're Right" and totally changing everything.

One of the funniest altercations concerning soul artists occurred in 1976 when Teddy Pendergrass, who was touring with his group of Blue Notes (for a brief time before finally going solo the following year), were on tour with Bobby Womack. Apparently Bobby harbored jealousy towards Teddy and the attention he got and decided to pull this "I'm sick" stunt one night (since he was actually the next-to-last performer). Teddy thought that was suspicious but went on anyway and did their show. When they got off, he saw Bobby and noticed that he wasn't sick at all. When Teddy confronted him, Bobby slyly told him he was going on. Angry, Teddy told someone in his group to turn everything off just as Bobby was getting ready to perform and like clockwork, the concert was over. Teddy said Bobby was so mad that he chased Teddy and 'em but Teddy managed to escape.

Timmy84 said:

Joe claimed he wrote like 30 hit songs for other artists on King Records but he had to sell his songwriting rights and they usually would give it to other artists that sold more records. King didn't really promote Joe and he bounced sometime in 1964 right after his altercation with James during his so-called homegoing concert in Georgia.

I wasn't there but it sounds believable. Was done a lot back then.

Joe left King Records in 1957 and sicged with Ace Records out of New Orleans. After Ace came Mint Records (distributed by Chess) and last was Anna Records (ran by Berry Gordy's sister.) Most of the artist on Anna were absorbed by Motown in 1961 (Marvin Gaye, David Ruffin, Johnny Bristol, Lamont Dozier were all on Anna and got picked up by Motown.) Not sure if Joe had already left or wasn't part of the deal. He was with Dial from 1961 until his death.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Joe claimed he wrote like 30 hit songs for other artists on King Records but he had to sell his songwriting rights and they usually would give it to other artists that sold more records. King didn't really promote Joe and he bounced sometime in 1964 right after his altercation with James during his so-called homegoing concert in Georgia.

I wasn't there but it sounds believable. Was done a lot back then.

Joe left King Records in 1957 and sicged with Ace Records out of New Orleans. After Ace came Mint Records (distributed by Chess) and last was Anna Records (ran by Berry Gordy's sister.) Most of the artist on Anna were absorbed by Motown in 1961 (Marvin Gaye, David Ruffin, Johnny Bristol, Lamont Dozier were all on Anna and got picked up by Motown.) Not sure if Joe had already left or wasn't part of the deal. He was with Dial from 1961 until his death.

It's interesting on how those type of deals work. Joe was actually thinking of another career when he left Anna Records (probably due to his own version of "Baby You're Right" not charting in replacement of James' version) so he wasn't part of the deal. If so he would've been sent to Motown.

[Edited 7/13/12 19:24pm]

Timmy84 said:

Joe claimed he wrote like 30 hit songs for other artists on King Records but he had to sell his songwriting rights and they usually would give it to other artists that sold more records. King didn't really promote Joe and he bounced sometime in 1964 right after his altercation with James during his so-called homegoing concert in Georgia.

----

I don't know if it's much of a beef but Marvin Gaye didn't think of James Brown too highly after Tammi Terrell told him about James' violent abuse towards her. Marvin would say that he remained cordial with James but kept a distance because he was afraid of pouncing on him.

----

Marvin had mad beef with Lou Rawls, Teddy Pendergrass and Rick James. With Lou, it was mainly because the Grammys had given some honors to Lou that he felt was given to the wrong individual. Ironically Lou Rawls' son would sue Marvin's son for having his dog leashed on him.

With Teddy, the dude (Ted) practically stole his image (the afro and beard combo), his performance style and even parts of his sound and he dated Janis (after Marvin and her had separated in 1979). Marvin was none too happy about that. Nor was he happy when he heard Janis was dating Rick. At the 1983 Grammys after receiving his Grammy for "Sexual Healing" in which Rick presented to him, according to Zeola Gaye, Marvin whispered in his ear "We need to talk as men. As long as you are with her, you need to take care of her." Of course Rick didn't stay with Janis that long anyway because he was fooling around with Linda Blair.

----

Wilson Pickett shot at O'Kelly and Rudolph Isley after a betting game went bust.

[Edited 7/13/12 19:26pm]

Timmy I swear, you are a damn walking music encyclopedia!

Ottensen said:

Timmy84 said:

Joe claimed he wrote like 30 hit songs for other artists on King Records but he had to sell his songwriting rights and they usually would give it to other artists that sold more records. King didn't really promote Joe and he bounced sometime in 1964 right after his altercation with James during his so-called homegoing concert in Georgia.

----

I don't know if it's much of a beef but Marvin Gaye didn't think of James Brown too highly after Tammi Terrell told him about James' violent abuse towards her. Marvin would say that he remained cordial with James but kept a distance because he was afraid of pouncing on him.

----

Marvin had mad beef with Lou Rawls, Teddy Pendergrass and Rick James. With Lou, it was mainly because the Grammys had given some honors to Lou that he felt was given to the wrong individual. Ironically Lou Rawls' son would sue Marvin's son for having his dog leashed on him.

With Teddy, the dude (Ted) practically stole his image (the afro and beard combo), his performance style and even parts of his sound and he dated Janis (after Marvin and her had separated in 1979). Marvin was none too happy about that. Nor was he happy when he heard Janis was dating Rick. At the 1983 Grammys after receiving his Grammy for "Sexual Healing" in which Rick presented to him, according to Zeola Gaye, Marvin whispered in his ear "We need to talk as men. As long as you are with her, you need to take care of her." Of course Rick didn't stay with Janis that long anyway because he was fooling around with Linda Blair.

----

Wilson Pickett shot at O'Kelly and Rudolph Isley after a betting game went bust.

[Edited 7/13/12 19:26pm]

Timmy I swear, you are a damn walking music encyclopedia!

The Drifters and Bill Pinkney's Drifters.

Aretha Franklin and Natalie Cole

In 1975, producers Chuck Jackson and Marvin Yancy were picked by Jerry Wexler (who would leave Atlantic Records for Warner Bros around that same time) to work with Aretha Franklin for her next album, which was titled "You". They presented her several songs that seemed to fit Aretha's sound. Among them was "This Will Be", "I Can't Say No" and "Inseparable" among others. Aretha felt the songs however didn't fit her and only liked one of the songs they presented her - "You" - which Aretha recorded.

Around the same time Natalie Cole was signed to Capitol Records and like Chuck and Marvin was based in Chicago where she was performing with her band. Once they got to hear her, they figured her voice would fit their songs. So when Natalie got the songs Aretha rejected, Natalie took them probably not knowing Aretha was given these songs first.

Push came to shove and "This Will Be" was released and became a hit. It became so popular it got nominated for a Grammy and - to the surprise of just about everybody and one pissed off Aretha Louise Franklin - she won. This led Aretha to not think of highly of the newcomer who not only won Best New Artist but also took her "Aretha Award" from her.

One time, Natalie was actually invited inside Aretha's dressing room by several of the male band members in Aretha's band and even was allowed to play Aretha's piano. Aretha was not pleased by this and told one of the members to take her out of the room pronto.

It would be years before Aretha forgave Natalie for acting like a diva towards her. I think they're friends now.

I know it had to be some groups and singers back then who couldn't stand each other?

Did the Cadillacs and Flamingos have beef?

Did a northern cat like Gene Chandler have it in for southern Wilson Pickett or something?

I know Little Willie John got into it with Jimi Hendrix once.

^ Little Willie John and Jimi Hendrix had beef? Whaaaat? Now that one's funny. Is there a back story to that?

Timmy84 said:

^ Little Willie John and Jimi Hendrix had beef? Whaaaat? Now that one's funny. Is there a back story to that?

A review from his book on Amazon.com.

Some of the more fascinating bits of information in this book include Willie John's importance as an on-stage performer whose dance moves influenced artists such as James Brown and Joe Tex (since no footage exists today of LWJ performing, I had no idea that was part of his legacy), his emulation of Frank Sinatra whose music he not only loved but even fashioned his look after, the artistic rivalry he had with Jackie Wilson & James Brown, a rift between him and Jimi Hendrix owing to a woman they both dated, how Elvis Presley was so awestruck by his recording of 'She Thinks I Still Care' that he framed LWJ's record and hung it on his wall in Graceland, his lifelong friendship with childhood pal Levi Stubbs who would later become the phenomenal lead vocalist with The Four Tops, and his mysterious, highly suspicious death in prison at the age of 30.

As mentioned by LBC, James and Solomon Burke had mad beef.

It's alleged that Solomon, not James or even Ray Charles, was the real "father of soul" because he was among the first artists to be mentioned as a "soul singer" when the genre wasn't even mentioned as much.

James didn't take lightly that Solomon had kept that title of "King of Soul" for three years and felt that HE was the king and wanted to make Solomon an example.

So in 1965 in Chicago, he invited Solomon to his show but not for a battle of the soul men competition (like the one James had with Joe Tex that according to Joe resulted in James losing to him ) but for Solomon to watch him and to hand him his cape and introduce him as the NEW King of Soul. This was right after "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" had become a million-seller.

James gave Solomon something around $100,000 (or $10,000, I gotta read Solomon's Wikipedia entry again) and Solomon accepted. Apparently James told him before hitting the stage, "just watch the real king son" and went on. Stories vary though. Either Solomon gave him his crown and robe to wear onstage or someone gave him a crown and robe and he was introduced as the king of soul. At one point Solomon hit the stage and the crowd roared with approval.

Apparently this upset James because afterwards nothing had changed: Solomon still kept his crown and robe and was still referred to as King of Soul. He later talked about his beef with James to a London interviewer around the same time.

Eventually James settled on a title he probably gave himself: "Soul Brother No. 1". Joe Tex would say that James was never a "soul man" and didn't hold up to that title and that Little Willie John was the "real soul brother No. 1".

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Little Willie John and Jimi Hendrix had beef? Whaaaat? Now that one's funny. Is there a back story to that?

A review from his book on Amazon.com.

Some of the more fascinating bits of information in this book include Willie John's importance as an on-stage performer whose dance moves influenced artists such as James Brown and Joe Tex (since no footage exists today of LWJ performing, I had no idea that was part of his legacy), his emulation of Frank Sinatra whose music he not only loved but even fashioned his look after, the artistic rivalry he had with Jackie Wilson & James Brown, a rift between him and Jimi Hendrix owing to a woman they both dated, how Elvis Presley was so awestruck by his recording of 'She Thinks I Still Care' that he framed LWJ's record and hung it on his wall in Graceland, his lifelong friendship with childhood pal Levi Stubbs who would later become the phenomenal lead vocalist with The Four Tops, and his mysterious, highly suspicious death in prison at the age of 30.

Ah over some lady.

I didn't know Willie was a dancer! But judging from his frame and stature, I'm not surprised. Hmm, now I'm beginning to wonder if James took more from Willie than he admits if, according to Joe Tex, Willie was the real king of soul in his opinion. Dayum...

Wow, I'm just reading into a bit online about when James opened for Little Willie John, how James tried in vain to top the headliner but failed to win the audience over. No one wants to talk about that apparently.

Timmy84 said:

As mentioned by LBC, James and Solomon Burke had mad beef.

It's alleged that Solomon, not James or even Ray Charles, was the real "father of soul" because he was among the first artists to be mentioned as a "soul singer" when the genre wasn't even mentioned as much.

James didn't take lightly that Solomon had kept that title of "King of Soul" for three years and felt that HE was the king and wanted to make Solomon an example.

So in 1965 in Chicago, he invited Solomon to his show but not for a battle of the soul men competition (like the one James had with Joe Tex that according to Joe resulted in James losing to him ) but for Solomon to watch him and to hand him his cape and introduce him as the NEW King of Soul. This was right after "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" had become a million-seller.

James gave Solomon something around $100,000 (or $10,000, I gotta read Solomon's Wikipedia entry again) and Solomon accepted. Apparently James told him before hitting the stage, "just watch the real king son" and went on. Stories vary though. Either Solomon gave him his crown and robe to wear onstage or someone gave him a crown and robe and he was introduced as the king of soul. At one point Solomon hit the stage and the crowd roared with approval.

Apparently this upset James because afterwards nothing had changed: Solomon still kept his crown and robe and was still referred to as King of Soul. He later talked about his beef with James to a London interviewer around the same time.

Eventually James settled on a title he probably gave himself: "Soul Brother No. 1". Joe Tex would say that James was never a "soul man" and didn't hold up to that title and that Little Willie John was the "real soul brother No. 1".

I read a story on soulful detroit that he tried to one up Burke (not sure if this was the same show) by jumping off a balcony into a split.

Also, Ernie K-Doe challanged James Brown to a showdown in New Orleans.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Ah over some lady.

I didn't know Willie was a dancer! But judging from his frame and stature, I'm not surprised. Hmm, now I'm beginning to wonder if James took more from Willie than he admits if, according to Joe Tex, Willie was the real king of soul in his opinion. Dayum...

JB did always say Willie was the only man who was better than him. That's as much props as you gonna get from JB.

Both JB and Joe did look up to Willie as he was the King at King (no pun, well maybe some pun) when they both got to the label.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

As mentioned by LBC, James and Solomon Burke had mad beef.

It's alleged that Solomon, not James or even Ray Charles, was the real "father of soul" because he was among the first artists to be mentioned as a "soul singer" when the genre wasn't even mentioned as much.

James didn't take lightly that Solomon had kept that title of "King of Soul" for three years and felt that HE was the king and wanted to make Solomon an example.

So in 1965 in Chicago, he invited Solomon to his show but not for a battle of the soul men competition (like the one James had with Joe Tex that according to Joe resulted in James losing to him ) but for Solomon to watch him and to hand him his cape and introduce him as the NEW King of Soul. This was right after "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" had become a million-seller.

James gave Solomon something around $100,000 (or $10,000, I gotta read Solomon's Wikipedia entry again) and Solomon accepted. Apparently James told him before hitting the stage, "just watch the real king son" and went on. Stories vary though. Either Solomon gave him his crown and robe to wear onstage or someone gave him a crown and robe and he was introduced as the king of soul. At one point Solomon hit the stage and the crowd roared with approval.

Apparently this upset James because afterwards nothing had changed: Solomon still kept his crown and robe and was still referred to as King of Soul. He later talked about his beef with James to a London interviewer around the same time.

Eventually James settled on a title he probably gave himself: "Soul Brother No. 1". Joe Tex would say that James was never a "soul man" and didn't hold up to that title and that Little Willie John was the "real soul brother No. 1".

I read a story on soulful detroit that he tried to one up Burke (not sure if this was the same show) by jumping off a balcony into a split.

Also, Ernie K-Doe challanged James Brown to a showdown in New Orleans.

Wait jumping off a balcony? Was James that crazy?

@ Ernie... I wonder if James took the challenge. Probably not. I wonder if Jackie and James had showdowns.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Ah over some lady.

I didn't know Willie was a dancer! But judging from his frame and stature, I'm not surprised. Hmm, now I'm beginning to wonder if James took more from Willie than he admits if, according to Joe Tex, Willie was the real king of soul in his opinion. Dayum...

JB did always say Willie was the only man who was better than him. That's as much props as you gonna get from JB.

Both JB and Joe did look up to Willie as he was the King at King (no pun, well maybe some pun) when they both got to the label.

True. You know hearing Willie's hits compilation, you can tell how big of an influence he was on soul artists. He might as well have been the real pioneer of that genre, even more so than Ray. He definitely was a pioneer of Detroit soul before Jackie Wilson's first solo hits.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I read a story on soulful detroit that he tried to one up Burke (not sure if this was the same show) by jumping off a balcony into a split.

Also, Ernie K-Doe challanged James Brown to a showdown in New Orleans.

Wait jumping off a balcony? Was James that crazy?

@ Ernie... I wonder if James took the challenge. Probably not. I wonder if Jackie and James had showdowns.

I read in "sweet soul music" that James Brown once jumped off a balcony at the Apollo trying to top Solomon Burke's live show (I think thats who they said). They said that Brown almost broke his neck.

Also, Ernie said he was part of the big five that included Little Willie John, Joe Tex, Jackie Wilson and James Brown.

He said early in his career, he practiced dancing with Joe Tex.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

I read in "sweet soul music" that James Brown once jumped off a balcony at the Apollo trying to top Solomon Burke's live show (I think thats who they said). They said that Brown almost broke his neck.

Also, Ernie said he was part of the big five that included Little Willie John, Joe Tex, Jackie Wilson and James Brown.

He said early in his career, he practiced dancing with Joe Tex.

Wow. I can't believe James almost killed himself doing that shit... all to top Solomon. Wow... crazy mess. Interesting info about Ernie.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Wow. I can't believe James almost killed himself doing that shit... all to top Solomon. Wow... crazy mess. Interesting info about Ernie.

Gotta love James

I could see him saying "top that you husky muthfucka!"

With that Ernie quote, maybe Willie was a dancer. Notice he listed 5 artist. We know about Jackie, Joe and James dancing. And Ernie says he gets down, that leaves Willie. Willie mus be a hell of a dancer cause if not he would have listed Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter and we know they didn't dance.

Must investigate tomorrow.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Wow. I can't believe James almost killed himself doing that shit... all to top Solomon. Wow... crazy mess. Interesting info about Ernie.

Gotta love James

I could see him saying "top that you husky muthfucka!"

With that Ernie quote, maybe Willie was a dancer. Notice he listed 5 artist. We know about Jackie, Joe and James dancing. And Ernie says he gets down, that leaves Willie. Willie mus be a hell of a dancer cause if not he would have listed Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter and we know they didn't dance.

Must investigate tomorrow.

Yeah James would. I heard Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter had the same problem Marvin Gaye had: they had two left feet. Actually I've seen footage of Sam and I know some will shake their head but dude was clapping his hands like a white boy and Marvin basically took after him. Clyde was possibly similar.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Gotta love James

I could see him saying "top that you husky muthfucka!"

With that Ernie quote, maybe Willie was a dancer. Notice he listed 5 artist. We know about Jackie, Joe and James dancing. And Ernie says he gets down, that leaves Willie. Willie mus be a hell of a dancer cause if not he would have listed Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter and we know they didn't dance.

Must investigate tomorrow.

Yeah James would. I heard Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter had the same problem Marvin Gaye had: they had two left feet. Actually I've seen footage of Sam and I know some will shake their head but dude was clapping his hands like a white boy and Marvin basically took after him. Clyde was possibly similar.

At lest they never really attempted to dance like Smokey with those choreographed moves with the Miracles.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah James would. I heard Sam Cooke and Clyde McPhatter had the same problem Marvin Gaye had: they had two left feet. Actually I've seen footage of Sam and I know some will shake their head but dude was clapping his hands like a white boy and Marvin basically took after him. Clyde was possibly similar.

At lest they never really attempted to dance like Smokey with those choreographed moves with the Miracles.

Every time Smoke danced I cringed. He clearly had two left feet. Like he was going into convulsions every time he danced. Not a good look Smoke. Marvin, Sam and Clyde thankfully knew their limitations and when Marvin did danced (as best as he could), he looked cool (like the dance sequence in "Got to Give It Up" for instance ). But Smoke? Good Lord, glad he didn't attempt no dancing during his solo career!

Sam always said he couldn't dance. Still that VOICE.

^ Sam didn't even need to dance. He and Marvin both had that cool demeanor that still made them men to die for.

It's funny that Jackie would try something with Sam there. Glad they didn't have no beef if they did it was just professional.