vainandy said:

MickyDolenz said:

^^The "pants on the ground" came from prisons, it had didn't really have anything to do with hip hop, especially since it meant that a prisoner was "available".

Oh, well that just makes it soooooo much better. Such wonderful role models to for entertainers to follow and pass down to fans.

The point is that the fashion didn't start from rap. You don't see anybody on the street or kids going to school dressed like this and they're rapppers:

[Edited 7/19/12 10:17am]

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

Oh, well that just makes it soooooo much better. Such wonderful role models to for entertainers to follow and pass down to fans.

The point is that the fashion didn't start from rap. You don't see anybody on the street or kids going to school dressed like this and they're rapppers:

[Edited 7/19/12 10:17am]

Of course I don't see anyone dressing like that because they don't have the balls to. Those folks don't dress like the average anything, let alone the average rapper. That's my point altogether. But to pick out a few that don't dress like the majority of the rappers is trying to paint a lie that these kids aren't influenced by and acting out the criminal influences of rap in general.

The majority of the idiots wear just the average everyday cheap shit that can be found in any Walmart across the country. It may have a high price tag on it but it looks just like the average old cheap Walmart shit. If you're influenced by someone like that and want to immitate them, it would be very easy to do and wouldn't take much money to do it. Yes, there have been negative people in the past also such as Rick James but it would take EXTREME guts if you wanted to immitate his look and act just like him, not to mention time and money to find those outrageous clothes. Plus, we knew the difference in reality and fantasy and that the average person didn't live the life of stars. Those damn rappers don't even live the larger than life image of a star anyway and they themselves carry themselves like average gutter trash.

Hell, you posting those pictures is like posting a picture of David Bowie and trying to say that all the average rock stars of the 1970s look like him.

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[Edited 7/19/12 10:45am]

vainandy said:

Hell, you posting those pictures is like posting a picture of David Bowie and trying to say that all the average rock stars of the 1970s look like him.

But saying rap is responsible for thugs is like saying country music is responisble for hillbillies and "trailer trash". They were already there.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

Hell, you posting those pictures is like posting a picture of David Bowie and trying to say that all the average rock stars of the 1970s look like him.

But saying rap is responsible for thugs is like saying country music is responisble for hillbillies and "trailer trash". They were already there.

There you go again comparing recent history to ancient history. Sure thugs were already there but they weren't nearly as idolized and immitated as they have been since shit hop took over. There was the 1920s ganster era with the gansters with the cool suits and I'm sure a few folks immitated them too but it costs big money to dress in those sharp suits. So no, the average Joe just couldn't be like them even if they wanted to.

And I've seen thugs like these today for my whole 44 years on this earth so yeah, they existed before shit hop but people considered them as gutter trash that you scrape off the bottom of your shoe. The last thing you wanted to look like back then was a common thug on the street that would rob you because if you looked like one, you would be looked down on. And Lord knows women didn't want them because they knew they were a broke ass man that didn't have a dime to his name and would more than likely beat her. But when shit hop took over, they became idolized instead of looked down on.

Rattlesnakes have always existed too but if I were to start a major trend of making them so popular as pets that everybody wanted one, there would be massive deaths from the bitings.

^^Since it has been written that white people are the largest purchasers of hip hop, why is it that blacks and latinos are the ones mostly shown on the news committing crimes and being put in jail? If rap and its fashion was as big of an influence as you say on folks behavior, why aren't more suburban white teens who listen to it being arrested?

MickyDolenz said:

^^Since it has been written that white people are the largest purchasers of hip hop, why is it that blacks and latinos are the ones mostly shown on the news committing crimes and being put in jail? If rap and its fashion was as big of an influence as you say on folks behavior, why aren't more suburban white teens who listen to it being arrested?

Because they are listening to it from a distance from the safety of their little sheltered suburban world. There's plenty of them that dress the part and act just as stupid as the rappers but don't commit the crimes. Hell, their mommy would give them a spanking if they went too far with it. Hell, their parents give them anything they want anyway so why would they rob and steal?

They're running around in their little shit hop clothes right there in the suburbs and they're basically playing "dress up". Hell, when other neighbors see them, they just shake their head and say "Oh, there's Jimmy again, he's all into that rap stuff" like they were referring to a child running around in a Superman cape. Plus, if you got some idiot in a song preaching to you about what a "real nigga" should be, it would be kinda stupid to actually live that image if you're white so there's only so far they go.

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[Edited 7/19/12 12:34pm]

vainandy said:

Because they are listening to it from a distance from the safety of their little sheltered suburban world. There's plenty of them that dress the part and act just as stupid as the rappers but don't commit the crimes. Hell, their mommy would give them a spanking if they went too far with it. Hell, their parents give them anything they want anyway so why would they rob and steal?

If it influences behavior to make a person commit crimes, then it doesn't matter if someone is rich or poor. It would be like alcohol & drugs.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

Because they are listening to it from a distance from the safety of their little sheltered suburban world. There's plenty of them that dress the part and act just as stupid as the rappers but don't commit the crimes. Hell, their mommy would give them a spanking if they went too far with it. Hell, their parents give them anything they want anyway so why would they rob and steal?

If it influences behavior to make a person commit crimes, then it doesn't matter if someone is rich or poor. It would be like alcohol & drugs.

It doesn't influence each and every single person that listens to it to commit crimes. Hell, you know that yourself. There are plenty of people that have good sense even if they don't have good taste. But it influences enough of them. Just turn on the local news and see what the majority of the criminals look like that are on the screen being arrested. Nine times out of ten, they look like these damn rappers. I mean, every single night, I see them in the news. Every blue moon you see someone that doesn't look them being arrested. I'm not talking about inside crimes such as a family member killing another family member or some inside embezzling crime. I'm talking about crimes on the street committed against perfectly innocent strangers who don't even know the damn thug that either robbed or killed them. Nine times out of ten, the ones committing these crimes (at least in my area anyway) look like these gutter trash shit hop rappers.

vainandy said:

MickyDolenz said:

If it influences behavior to make a person commit crimes, then it doesn't matter if someone is rich or poor. It would be like alcohol & drugs.

It doesn't influence each and every single person that listens to it to commit crimes. Hell, you know that yourself. There are plenty of people that have good sense even if they don't have good taste. But it influences enough of them. Just turn on the local news and see what the majority of the criminals look like that are on the screen being arrested. Nine times out of ten, they look like these damn rappers. I mean, every single night, I see them in the news. Every blue moon you see someone that doesn't look them being arrested. I'm not talking about inside crimes such as a family member killing another family member or some inside embezzling crime. I'm talking about crimes on the street committed against perfectly innocent strangers who don't even know the damn thug that either robbed or killed them. Nine times out of ten, the ones committing these crimes (at least in my area anyway) look like these gutter trash shit hop rappers.

That's because the news are RACIST, let me tell you something - these criminals don't even compare to the big criminals with suit in Washington, NYC, LA and other major cities in the world - who support wars (and weapons that kill innocent children in Africa, latin america, middle east to name some places), sell drugs and so on. I can assure you that the biggest criminals don't look NOTHING like Jay-z or 50 cent. The reason why you see poor blacks and latinos commiting crimes, is because there are no funds in their schools to give them proper education, no parents to help them out in their life and hence their only family members are the gangs. Many ghettos in the US are poor places and they dream of making it big like their idols, who were poor once -and now friends with the president. Racism is very much still alive in soceity today and to ignore those problems and blame them on music, is just ludacris and stupid. This problem is much deeper than any song that Curtis Jackson or Sean Combs could make, even though they try to inspire kids to do better - it's a political situation. How is it that black men are the most incarcinated for crimes that arent even that bad - like weed smoking and the white kid from the suburban area gets nothing? Tell me how that is fair and then you got the nerve to say it's HIP HOP who's influening kids to rob becaue they're poor and are seen as inferior by other people. Just like the Trayvon Martin situation, just because he had on those urban clothes he was a criminal, this world is CRAZY!

GoldDolphin said:

vainandy said:

It doesn't influence each and every single person that listens to it to commit crimes. Hell, you know that yourself. There are plenty of people that have good sense even if they don't have good taste. But it influences enough of them. Just turn on the local news and see what the majority of the criminals look like that are on the screen being arrested. Nine times out of ten, they look like these damn rappers. I mean, every single night, I see them in the news. Every blue moon you see someone that doesn't look them being arrested. I'm not talking about inside crimes such as a family member killing another family member or some inside embezzling crime. I'm talking about crimes on the street committed against perfectly innocent strangers who don't even know the damn thug that either robbed or killed them. Nine times out of ten, the ones committing these crimes (at least in my area anyway) look like these gutter trash shit hop rappers.

That's because the news are RACIST, let me tell you something - these criminals don't even compare to the big criminals with suit in Washington, NYC, LA and other major cities in the world - who support wars (and weapons that kill innocent children in Africa, latin america, middle east to name some places), sell drugs and so on. I can assure you that the biggest criminals don't look NOTHING like Jay-z or 50 cent. The reason why you see poor blacks and latinos commiting crimes, is because there are no funds in their schools to give them proper education, no parents to help them out in their life and hence their only family members are the gangs. Many ghettos in the US are poor places and they dream of making it big like their idols, who were poor once -and now friends with the president. Racism is very much still alive in soceity today and to ignore those problems and blame them on music, is just ludacris and stupid. This problem is much deeper than any song that Curtis Jackson or Sean Combs could make, even though they try to inspire kids to do better - it's a political situation. How is it that black men are the most incarcinated for crimes that arent even that bad - like weed smoking and the white kid from the suburban area gets nothing? Tell me how that is fair and then you got the nerve to say it's HIP HOP who's influening kids to rob becaue they're poor and are seen as inferior by other people. Just like the Trayvon Martin situation, just because he had on those urban clothes he was a criminal, this world is CRAZY!

Whoever said racism didn't exist and whoever said that big white collar criminals didn't exist either. I don't live in some big ass mansion somewhere shut off from the rest of the world. Hell, just turn on the TV and look at some of these damn Tea Party people and Republicans and you'll see racism still exists. And since I'm white myself, I hear the blatant racist comments that are made all the time when no black people are around. But who is the most likely to rob or physically assault me personally? Some high dollar white collar criminal in Washington, or some thug right here on the streets of Jackson? And furthermore, who is more likely to rob or physically assault some other black person who lives in that same ghetto that they live in who has faced the same discrimination, in fact, even WORSE discrimination because they are older and were around when times were even MORE racist but yet, they don't go around robbing assaulting folks like common trash.

90% of my personal friends, co-workers, and associates are black and have been since 1979 and none of them are trash like these idiots on these shit hop records. The rednecks labelled me as "the nigger lover" since way back then and the only white bitch as bad as me is Teena Marie. But the MAIN people I have heard bitching about that bullshit genre are other black people. And most of the ones I know are not rich either and have to live among that bullshit and crime and they don't steal, rob, and assault, and the crime in those areas has increased DRASTICALLY since shit hop has taken over. Hell, it's because of white people buying it and listening to it from their safe little distances, that the bullshit hasn't finally gone out of style allowing other styles of R&B to come in and take over. You didn't have one style dominating for 20 years back when 90% of R&B listeners were black. You can throw that racism excuse somewhere else because that's just another excuse to not admit that that genre has turned into COMPLETE bullshit and has been for years.

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[Edited 7/19/12 17:05pm]

vainandy said:

GoldDolphin said:

That's because the news are RACIST, let me tell you something - these criminals don't even compare to the big criminals with suit in Washington, NYC, LA and other major cities in the world - who support wars (and weapons that kill innocent children in Africa, latin america, middle east to name some places), sell drugs and so on. I can assure you that the biggest criminals don't look NOTHING like Jay-z or 50 cent. The reason why you see poor blacks and latinos commiting crimes, is because there are no funds in their schools to give them proper education, no parents to help them out in their life and hence their only family members are the gangs. Many ghettos in the US are poor places and they dream of making it big like their idols, who were poor once -and now friends with the president. Racism is very much still alive in soceity today and to ignore those problems and blame them on music, is just ludacris and stupid. This problem is much deeper than any song that Curtis Jackson or Sean Combs could make, even though they try to inspire kids to do better - it's a political situation. How is it that black men are the most incarcinated for crimes that arent even that bad - like weed smoking and the white kid from the suburban area gets nothing? Tell me how that is fair and then you got the nerve to say it's HIP HOP who's influening kids to rob becaue they're poor and are seen as inferior by other people. Just like the Trayvon Martin situation, just because he had on those urban clothes he was a criminal, this world is CRAZY!

Whoever said racism didn't exist and whoever said that big white collar criminals didn't exist either. I don't live in some big ass mansion somewhere shut off from the rest of the world. Hell, just turn on the TV and look at some of these damn Tea Party people and Republicans and you'll see racism still exists. And since I'm white myself, I hear the blatant racist comments that are made all the time when no black people are around. But who is the most likely to rob or physically assault me personally? Some high dollar white collar criminal in Washington, or some thug right here on the streets of Jackson? And furthermore, who is more likely to rob or physically assault some other black person who lives in that same ghetto that they live in who has faced the same discrimination, in fact, even WORSE discrimination because they are older and were around when times were even MORE racist but yet, they don't go around robbing assaulting folks like common trash.

90% of my personal friends, co-workers, and associates are black and have been since 1979 and none of them are trash like these idiots on these shit hop records. The rednecks labelled me as "the nigger lover" since way back then and the only white bitch as bad as me is Teena Marie. But the MAIN people I have heard bitching about that bullshit genre are other black people. And most of the ones I know are not rich either and have to live among that bullshit and crime and they don't steal, rob, and assault, and the crime in those areas has increased DRASTICALLY since shit hop has taken over. Hell, it's because of white people buying it and listening to it from their safe little distances, that the bullshit hasn't finally gone out of style allowing other styles of R&B to come in and take over. You didn't have one style dominating for 20 years back when 90% of R&B listeners were black. You can throw that racism excuse somewhere else because that's just another excuse to not admit that that genre has turned into COMPLETE bullshit and has been for years.

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[Edited 7/19/12 17:05pm]

I dont think you understand the culture at all, it doesnt matter if other people call you "the nigger lover" or you're bad as "Teena Marie" or have worked years with black people. That doesn't matter, the fact still remain that you don't understand hiphop culture and are confusing the social problems with a musical genre that isnt accepted in many places, you're a prime example of how REAL hiphop no matter what, will never be accepted. You show your prejudice towards it because you simply don't understand it. It's like blaming all rockers from the 70s & 80s for promoting drugs, when many rockstars were heavy drugusers. Questlove & Q-Tip tried to discuss this problem on that stupid debate Google had a month ago, but it didnt work. You're entitled to your opinion like everyone else, but it doesn't mean you have any foundation to base your assumptions on an entire culture of people. I'm going to quote KRS-One on this

" to be the master of ceremonies. you can make whatever you want with hip hop. you can teach or say whatever you want. and that is what the freedom of speach movement has created. we have fought for these rights for an indefinite amount of time and now that we have them we would like to excersize them."

[Edited 7/20/12 7:27am]

GoldDolphin said:

vainandy said:

Whoever said racism didn't exist and whoever said that big white collar criminals didn't exist either. I don't live in some big ass mansion somewhere shut off from the rest of the world. Hell, just turn on the TV and look at some of these damn Tea Party people and Republicans and you'll see racism still exists. And since I'm white myself, I hear the blatant racist comments that are made all the time when no black people are around. But who is the most likely to rob or physically assault me personally? Some high dollar white collar criminal in Washington, or some thug right here on the streets of Jackson? And furthermore, who is more likely to rob or physically assault some other black person who lives in that same ghetto that they live in who has faced the same discrimination, in fact, even WORSE discrimination because they are older and were around when times were even MORE racist but yet, they don't go around robbing assaulting folks like common trash.

90% of my personal friends, co-workers, and associates are black and have been since 1979 and none of them are trash like these idiots on these shit hop records. The rednecks labelled me as "the nigger lover" since way back then and the only white bitch as bad as me is Teena Marie. But the MAIN people I have heard bitching about that bullshit genre are other black people. And most of the ones I know are not rich either and have to live among that bullshit and crime and they don't steal, rob, and assault, and the crime in those areas has increased DRASTICALLY since shit hop has taken over. Hell, it's because of white people buying it and listening to it from their safe little distances, that the bullshit hasn't finally gone out of style allowing other styles of R&B to come in and take over. You didn't have one style dominating for 20 years back when 90% of R&B listeners were black. You can throw that racism excuse somewhere else because that's just another excuse to not admit that that genre has turned into COMPLETE bullshit and has been for years.

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[Edited 7/19/12 17:05pm]

I dont think you understand the culture at all, it doesnt matter if other people call you "the nigger lover" or you're bad as "Teena Marie" or have worked years with black people. That doesn't matter, the fact still remain that you don't understand hiphop culture and are confusing the social problems with a musical genre that isnt accepted in many places, you're a prime example of how REAL hiphop no matter what, will never be accepted. You show your prejudice towards it because you simply don't understand it. It's like blaming all rockers from the 70s & 80s for promoting drugs, when many rockstars were heavy drugusers. Questlove & Q-Tip tried to discuss this problem on that stupid debate Google had a month ago, but it didnt work. You're entitled to your opinion like everyone else, but it doesn't mean you have any foundation to base your assumptions on an entire culture of people. I'm going to quote KRS-One on this

" to be the master of ceremonies. you can make whatever you want with hip hop. you can teach or say whatever you want. and that is what the freedom of speach movement has created. we have fought for these rights for an indefinite amount of time and now that we have them we would like to excersize them."

[Edited 7/20/12 7:27am]

Oh, so now I'm one of those "I'm not racist, I have black friends at work" people. Uh...no honey. I've had black friends at school, I've got black friends at work, I've got black friends that hang out with me at my house, I've got black friends that I hang out at their house, I've got black friends that I've hung out with in all black clubs, I've got black friends who are neighbors, and I've had many and plenty "more than friends" black people that I've hung out with in my bed, their bed, their friends bed, my car, their car, the bushes, the parking lot, one on one, threesomes, foursomes, eightsomes....let's see did I miss anything.

And as for it being a "culture", hell, there's trailer park "culture", prison "culture", redneck "culture", Klan "culture", also. You're absolutely right, it is a "culture" and not all "cultures" are good. As for not being around or exposed to this shit hop "culture", I HAVE been around it and exposed to it and that's the very problem right there. If I hadn't been first hand exposed to it like so many of these little spoiled rich white brats who love it so much, I probably wouldn't hate it and consider it just as something foreign that I probably would never be around such as the fighting in these foreign countries.

And as for shit hop not being accepted..........Turn on the radio and tune in to the R&B stations that play current music. Shit hop is the MAJORITY of what's been on there for the last 20 years. Hell, it has been all over pop radio, it's all over the TV, it's "culture" is all over these minstrel show reality shows, it comes from the speakers of the majority of the passing cars, older artists making new albums have to water their music down with a shit hop vibe if they want to even get a record deal, let alone radio airplay or a hit. If that's not being accepted then trade places with the groups that have to tour the casinos and outdoor festivals. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to "not be accepted".

vainandy said:

GoldDolphin said:

I dont think you understand the culture at all, it doesnt matter if other people call you "the nigger lover" or you're bad as "Teena Marie" or have worked years with black people. That doesn't matter, the fact still remain that you don't understand hiphop culture and are confusing the social problems with a musical genre that isnt accepted in many places, you're a prime example of how REAL hiphop no matter what, will never be accepted. You show your prejudice towards it because you simply don't understand it. It's like blaming all rockers from the 70s & 80s for promoting drugs, when many rockstars were heavy drugusers. Questlove & Q-Tip tried to discuss this problem on that stupid debate Google had a month ago, but it didnt work. You're entitled to your opinion like everyone else, but it doesn't mean you have any foundation to base your assumptions on an entire culture of people. I'm going to quote KRS-One on this

" to be the master of ceremonies. you can make whatever you want with hip hop. you can teach or say whatever you want. and that is what the freedom of speach movement has created. we have fought for these rights for an indefinite amount of time and now that we have them we would like to excersize them."

[Edited 7/20/12 7:27am]

Oh, so now I'm one of those "I'm not racist, I have black friends at work" people. Uh...no honey. I've had black friends at school, I've got black friends at work, I've got black friends that hang out with me at my house, I've got black friends that I hang out at their house, I've got black friends that I've hung out with in all black clubs, I've got black friends who are neighbors, and I've had many and plenty "more than friends" black people that I've hung out with in my bed, their bed, their friends bed, my car, their car, the bushes, the parking lot, one on one, threesomes, foursomes, eightsomes....let's see did I miss anything.

And as for it being a "culture", hell, there's trailer park "culture", prison "culture", redneck "culture", Klan "culture", also. You're absolutely right, it is a "culture" and not all "cultures" are good. As for not being around or exposed to this shit hop "culture", I HAVE been around it and exposed to it and that's the very problem right there. If I hadn't been first hand exposed to it like so many of these little spoiled rich white brats who love it so much, I probably wouldn't hate it and consider it just as something foreign that I probably would never be around such as the fighting in these foreign countries.

And as for shit hop not being accepted..........Turn on the radio and tune in to the R&B stations that play current music. Shit hop is the MAJORITY of what's been on there for the last 20 years. Hell, it has been all over pop radio, it's all over the TV, it's "culture" is all over these minstrel show reality shows, it comes from the speakers of the majority of the passing cars, older artists making new albums have to water their music down with a shit hop vibe if they want to even get a record deal, let alone radio airplay or a hit. If that's not being accepted then trade places with the groups that have to tour the casinos and outdoor festivals. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to "not be accepted".

I never said you were a racist, but the way you present yourself is pretty off, no offense. I have nothing against you, this is just a discussion board but your opinions are very biased and I have nothing more to add really. Like I said before you're entitled to your opinion but just because you don't understand hiphop culture doesnt mean it's bad. I hope you have a great day, cheers