TonyVanDam said:

And we know now that Jimmy Iovine & Clive Davis benefited financially from the 2pac VS. Biggie feud.

Old Silver Balls was involved in this bullshit? As if he hadn't done enough damage to music already! Hell, looks he was determined to fuck music up totally to where it would never be good again!

.

.

.

[Edited 4/17/12 15:13pm]

TonyVanDam said:

missfee said:

To all of this. All you have to do is watch "Welcome to Death Row" to realize that Death Row Records really was a gang environment.

The moment Dr. Dre watch in sheer horror the studto engineer getting beat down by Blood gang members for rewinding a record too far back, Dre waste no time at all in leaving Death Row Records. He even asked Jimmy Iovine to back him in starting Aftermath Entertainment. This was also around that time that Dre attempted (but failed!) to stay away from doing the gangsta subgenre of hip-hop/rap.

Then after Dre was gone and Tupac dead, Snoop pretty much was scrambling to get out too. That's when he ran to Master P. God bless his heart.

Because he wrote truthfully, spiritually, and wholefully

[Edited 4/17/12 16:35pm]

Because he was fucking awesome.

This, coming from someone who doesn't even listen to or LIKE rap anymore. I think he was just an incredible human being.

-He was able to invest so much emotion into his songs. This made it easier for people to connect to him than to more technically gifted MCs like Biggie, who came off kinda cold if like me you're not the type of person who's impressed by more intricate rhyme schemes and wordplay.

-He mourned his own hypocrisy.

-The beats were better, ominous and simpler.

-The hooks: something like To Live&Die in LA can relay round my head for time just to think of it.

-If you made a double album of his best songs they would be worth more than any other hip hop ever.

-He screwed Biggie's wife

-He was an handsome cunt.

-The business model has proven so lucrative.

"Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon/watch these niggas die, witnessing breathless imperfections/can you picture my specific plan/to be The Man in this wicked land/underhanded hits are planned./Scams are plotted over grams and rocks/when undercover agents die by the random shots"

"Perhaps I was addicted to the dark side..."

"Ya still breeving? Ya still breeving!?"

"First off fuck ya bitch and the click you claim..."

[Edited 4/17/12 18:00pm]

Militant said:

Because he was real, he wore his heart on his sleeve, he was unafraid, unabashed, unapologetic, entertaining, a great songwriter as well as rapper, he was intelligent, artistic, poetic, with a deep rooted understanding of the real social issues he wrote about, he attracted talent to him in the same way that Prince does, he was relateable to both men and women, he wasn't a misogynist unlike many other rappers (see 'Keep Ya Head Up' for example), he was incredibly prolific but consistently brilliant (even most of his unreleased material is excellent), he was a gifted poet and actor, and he's the icon/hero for troubled youth, (especially 80's and 90's babies) in the same way that Kurt is. His life story has been mytholigized to the point of legend, and he was ahead of his time in the sense that his words remain relevant today.

Those are just SOME of the reasons why. There never has, and there never will be another artist like him. He's utterly unique and especially within the realms of hip-hop. He transcends it.

his music and rhymes and intellect is better than what hear hear mostly from rappers of today

jpnyc said:

Because the world will always be full of gullible young men who don’t realize Tupac’s thug life image was concoted by white record executives who wanted to commercially exploit negative stereotypes of black men.

Unfortunately i have to agree. I liked the Me Against the World album which i

thought was his best work and more his truth. All Eyes On Me was on some

commercial shit to sell the thug image. I really disliked that album to the

nth power.

vainandy said:

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

And there it is

missfee said:

TonyVanDam said:

The moment Dr. Dre watch in sheer horror the studto engineer getting beat down by Blood gang members for rewinding a record too far back, Dre waste no time at all in leaving Death Row Records. He even asked Jimmy Iovine to back him in starting Aftermath Entertainment. This was also around that time that Dre attempted (but failed!) to stay away from doing the gangsta subgenre of hip-hop/rap.

Then after Dre was gone and Tupac dead, Snoop pretty much was scrambling to get out too. That's when he ran to Master P. God bless his heart.

yeah, he's a real "G"

vainandy said:

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

Paris9748430 said:

vainandy said:

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Timmy84 said:

Paris9748430 said:

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

Paris9748430 said:

Timmy84 said:

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

There you go.

Paris9748430 said:

Timmy84 said:

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

Thank you. I don't see how folks can keep limiting the crazy behavior in the music business to rap and hip hop when that mess has been going on for damn near a century in nearly ALL genre's of music. The music business has always been corrupt IMO. Lest us not forget what ole Blue Eyes had to do to get out of his contract with Tommy Dorsey.

Paris9748430 said:

vainandy said:

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

I knew someone was going to point out particular incidents in other genres. Yeah, I'm sure if you search hard enough you can find similar incidents in rock, country, and maybe even classical. But I have never seen such widespread ignorance and trash all gathered together in one genre except in shit hop. In other genres, incidents like that were tried to be kept quiet because they were embarassing incidents for the genre, but in shit hop, they are flaunted and celebrated as if they are good things.

Just like people tell me all the time..."you can find good new music these days if you search for it"........Well, the same applies to this situation also, you can always find bad in any genre if you search hard enough for it. But in shit hop, you don't have to search to find trash because it's full of it and is flaunted and celebrated. It's amazing how people will pull every rabbit out of their hat to try to defend this bullshit genre rather than just admitting that is the most dull, no talent, gutter trash genre that has ever existed in the history of music.

Paris9748430 said:

Timmy84 said:

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

And how many people knew about these incidents? I'm sure some people did but for the most part, they were kept quiet because they were embarasing incidents. They weren't flaunted all over the radio and TV airwaves and they weren't celebrated as good things.

And how many young men that listened to the music that these men were churning out tried to immitate these men in ever single way from their style of dress, to their attitude, to their walk, to their speech, and to their every little gesture?

missfee said:

Paris9748430 said:

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

Thank you. I don't see how folks can keep limiting the crazy behavior in the music business to rap and hip hop when that mess has been going on for damn near a century in nearly ALL genre's of music. The music business has always been corrupt IMO. Lest us not forget what ole Blue Eyes had to do to get out of his contract with Tommy Dorsey.

Right. Might've not been public but it was still going on. Sam Cooke had to fight some of the crookedness when he vowed to win his master tapes.

vainandy said:

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

And to think that 2pac might still be alive right now if Suge NEVER paid the $2 million dollar bail.

vainandy said:

TonyVanDam said:

And we know now that Jimmy Iovine & Clive Davis benefited financially from the 2pac VS. Biggie feud.

Old Silver Balls was involved in this bullshit? As if he hadn't done enough damage to music already! Hell, looks he was determined to fuck music up totally to where it would never be good again!

.

.

.

[Edited 4/17/12 15:13pm]

Clive Davis' Arista Records was a then-major label distributor of Sean Combs's Bad Boy Entertainment. Craig Mack, Biggie, & Fatih Evans were the first 3 original artists signed.

And you can best believe that Clive made his money off of Biggie's death just as much as he definitely making money off of Whitney's death.

Paris9748430 said:

vainandy said:

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

And if we talk about , Rick James was smoking it long before Snoop Dogg OR 2pac did!

Yes, I went there! Rick James was gangsta in his time.

Paris9748430 said:

Timmy84 said:

James Brown cocked guns at both Joe Tex and Wilson Pickett (who also cocked a gun at James) back in the day, Jackie Wilson used to have street gangs as "protection" during live performances and Ike Turner had a reputation of pistol whipping record execs for money dealings.

Berry Gordy was strong-arming radio execs, and payola.

Hell, Suge Knight learned everything he knew about the music business from Dick Griffey!

Cats being dangled off hotel balconies.

A lot of these cats were gangstas!

That's because Dick Griffey is the uncle of Suge Knight.

vainandy said:

Paris9748430 said:

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

I knew someone was going to point out particular incidents in other genres. Yeah, I'm sure if you search hard enough you can find similar incidents in rock, country, and maybe even classical. But I have never seen such widespread ignorance and trash all gathered together in one genre except in shit hop. In other genres, incidents like that were tried to be kept quiet because they were embarassing incidents for the genre, but in shit hop, they are flaunted and celebrated as if they are good things.

Just like people tell me all the time..."you can find good new music these days if you search for it"........Well, the same applies to this situation also, you can always find bad in any genre if you search hard enough for it. But in shit hop, you don't have to search to find trash because it's full of it and is flaunted and celebrated. It's amazing how people will pull every rabbit out of their hat to try to defend this bullshit genre rather than just admitting that is the most dull, no talent, gutter trash genre that has ever existed in the history of music.

Bingo. By and large hip hop celebrates and promotes abhorrent behavior and ultimately, the decline of black people. And 2pac was an ambassador of this "ethic". He disgusts me.

[Edited 4/18/12 14:10pm]

119 said:

vainandy said:

I knew someone was going to point out particular incidents in other genres. Yeah, I'm sure if you search hard enough you can find similar incidents in rock, country, and maybe even classical. But I have never seen such widespread ignorance and trash all gathered together in one genre except in shit hop. In other genres, incidents like that were tried to be kept quiet because they were embarassing incidents for the genre, but in shit hop, they are flaunted and celebrated as if they are good things.

Just like people tell me all the time..."you can find good new music these days if you search for it"........Well, the same applies to this situation also, you can always find bad in any genre if you search hard enough for it. But in shit hop, you don't have to search to find trash because it's full of it and is flaunted and celebrated. It's amazing how people will pull every rabbit out of their hat to try to defend this bullshit genre rather than just admitting that is the most dull, no talent, gutter trash genre that has ever existed in the history of music.

Bingo. By and large hip hop celebrates and promotes abhorrent behavior and ultimately, the decline of black people. And 2pac was an ambassador of this "ethic". He disgusts me.

[Edited 4/18/12 14:10pm]

The decline of Black People? You really need to get out more!

TonyVanDam said:

Paris9748430 said:

Didn't Sly Stone pull a gun on Larry Graham? And Didn't Larry get a crew of his people to try to jump Sly in a hotel lobby?

Thuggish behavior in the music industry is not just a hip-hop thing.

And if we talk about , Rick James was smoking it long before Snoop Dogg OR 2pac did!

Yes, I went there! Rick James was gangsta in his time.

That's right. And I have yet to see one single person on the news being thrown into a police car dressed in thigh high boots and glittery braids while committing a crime immitating him. Can't say the same for shit hop though.

vainandy said:

TonyVanDam said:

And if we talk about , Rick James was smoking it long before Snoop Dogg OR 2pac did!

Yes, I went there! Rick James was gangsta in his time.

That's right. And I have yet to see one single person on the news being thrown into a police car dressed in thigh high boots and glittery braids while committing a crime immitating him. Can't say the same for shit hop though.

You're right, there wasn't anyone imitating Rick James being thrown into a police car.

It was just Rick himself.

That's much better!

Paris9748430 said:

119 said:

Bingo. By and large hip hop celebrates and promotes abhorrent behavior and ultimately, the decline of black people. And 2pac was an ambassador of this "ethic". He disgusts me.

[Edited 4/18/12 14:10pm]

The decline of Black People? You really need to get out more!

I always found that humorous myself. Decline really?

Timmy84 said:

Paris9748430 said:

The decline of Black People? You really need to get out more!

I always found that humorous myself. Decline really?

Are you kidding? Us black people are doomed!