vainandy said:

Dying Getting shot and killed was the worst thing to happen to him because since musical standards had already been lowered while he was popular, he became an undeserving "legend" during his death and it helped all this rediculous "thug" foolishness continue to live on instead of fizzle out like it should have.

There, that's more honest.

Timmy84 said:

Also, lemme add, near the end of his life during his interviews, Pac thought it was impossible for him to fully "change" because "the world made me that way". I don't know if that sounded defeatist or what...

It sounded like bullshit to me.

I remmeber that Tabitha S interview.

rdhull said:

Timmy84 said:

Also, lemme add, near the end of his life during his interviews, Pac thought it was impossible for him to fully "change" because "the world made me that way". I don't know if that sounded defeatist or what...

It sounded like bullshit to me.

I remmeber that Tabitha S interview.

He did two interviews with Tabitha but I guess you mean the 1994 one. In that case yeah. Like I said, it was the "image". I don't think the world "made him the way he was", his childhood probably did though. No wonder he was so conflicted near the end.

Timmy84 said:

rdhull said:

It sounded like bullshit to me.

I remmeber that Tabitha S interview.

He did two interviews with Tabitha but I guess you mean the 1994 one. In that case yeah. Like I said, it was the "image". I don't think the world "made him the way he was", his childhood probably did though. No wonder he was so conflicted near the end.

lol wait..Im saying that him saying "the world made me this way" regarding being a prick was a bullshit statement in that he tried to excuse his loutish behavior on some world mythos crap.

Bascially that negro was trying to be Bishop and then attempting to excuse his shit later when folks sat him down.

That jailjhouse interview he gave was probably the only real thing he did regarding a statement but he really showed how he was full of it after he got out.

and my opinion isnt just an indictment on Pac but as I sated Cobain was a phony imo too just as bad.

edit:jailhouse interview with Vibe Magazine

.

[Edited 4/17/12 10:31am]

Graycap23 said:

Militant said:

Because he was real, he wore his heart on his sleeve, he was unafraid, unabashed, unapologetic, entertaining, a great songwriter as well as rapper, he was intelligent, artistic, poetic, with a deep rooted understanding of the real social issues he wrote about, he attracted talent to him in the same way that Prince does, he was relateable to both men and women, he wasn't a misogynist unlike many other rappers (see 'Keep Ya Head Up' for example), he was incredibly prolific but consistently brilliant (even most of his unreleased material is excellent), he was a gifted poet and actor, and he's the icon/hero for troubled youth, (especially 80's and 90's babies) in the same way that Kurt is. His life story has been mytholigized to the point of legend, and he was ahead of his time in the sense that his words remain relevant today.

Those are just SOME of the reasons why. There never has, and there never will be another artist like him. He's utterly unique and especially within the realms of hip-hop. He transcends it.

Reality check. Dude was starting 2 believe his own hype. The only problem with that is the nonsense that happens on video shoots don't go down quite like that in the real world.

In fairness, 2pac did tell Mrs. Wallace (Biggie's mother) that she should never take anything that he said about Biggie too seriously because he only said it in order to sell record.

THIS^ was 2pac during his Death Row Records/G-Funk era of his career, at the height of the controversial east coast/west coast feud that was happening in hip-hop/rap at the time. And we know now that Jimmy Iovine & Clive Davis benefited financially from the 2pac VS. Biggie feud.

This is why I tell young kids today the real 2pac exist to me when I listen to his first 3 albums, because that 4th album (All Eyez On Me) overall was more of what Suge Knight wanted to stay in line with Interscope than what 2pac wanted.

Timmy84 said:

To me, there's something of a negative resonance with 2Pac. Sure people love his music but the industry was more attracted to his bad boy image and that's why they tried to find it in other rappers from DMX, Ja Rule, 50 Cent on down. They weren't interested in 1991-1993 2Pac though that era 2Pac was also something of a bad boy (or "thug") then as well. But then you look at his background and you think "hmm... OK, something's off" because if he was as real as he claimed or inspired to be, then why was there so many mixed signals? I think Pac was very complex but with the "intelligence" - and he had some social messages that still resonate with some part of his audience (including me), there was also still the need to prove that he was "keeping it real". The last year of his life was nothing but smoke and mirrors because he was living the life of his image and I think that's what killed him: "the image". My dad always said his ignorance is what got him killed - and I believe it.

Before Thug Life (NOT a name of a rap group, but a subculture that existed in most poor working class communities in the USA at the time), 2pac was mostly a political and social rap artist that could co-exist within the same circles as Public Enemy, KRS-ONE, & The X-Clan. This is the real 2pac that I missed the most.

DMX is good because at least he was trying to be himself despite the 2pac comparsion. But Ja Rule, 50 Cent, & Lil Wayne....oops, I mean Lil Wendy?!? F*** them!

Militant said:

Because he was real, he wore his heart on his sleeve, he was unafraid, unabashed, unapologetic, entertaining, a great songwriter as well as rapper, he was intelligent, artistic, poetic, with a deep rooted understanding of the real social issues he wrote about, he attracted talent to him in the same way that Prince does, he was relateable to both men and women, he wasn't a misogynist unlike many other rappers (see 'Keep Ya Head Up' for example), he was incredibly prolific but consistently brilliant (even most of his unreleased material is excellent), he was a gifted poet and actor, and he's the icon/hero for troubled youth, (especially 80's and 90's babies) in the same way that Kurt is. His life story has been mytholigized to the point of legend, and he was ahead of his time in the sense that his words remain relevant today.

Those are just SOME of the reasons why. There never has, and there never will be another artist like him. He's utterly unique and especially within the realms of hip-hop. He transcends it.

Very well said. People could relate to him, he was REAL unlike MOST celebrities, he didnt care if you didnt like him, he was a FANTASTIC performer for a RAPPER and a GREAT GREAT SONGWRITER/POET!!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU PAC!!!

Cause he represented everything in hip-hop.

The good and the bad.

The Good

Artistic freedom

great lyrics

likability

articulate

The Bad

Artistic freedom

Beef

Streets/Thug Life

Jail

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The Good

Artistic freedom

The Bad

Artistic freedom

paradox?

rdhull said:

Smart? Why are people saying this? It trivializes and is demeaning saying he was "smart." Yall act like he had a Ph.D. or was a rocket science. Just because he was articulate and was into many things? So a black dude is smart because of that everyday shit that most of us all do on the daily anyways? It's as if the general public's vision of black dudes is talking in ghetto slang and eating pork rinds and just watching movies and playing video games? Anything other than that is a "smart" black dude?

let me stop

You dont have to have a PH.D to be smart, anyone can be smart and if people think he was smart, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean Michael Jackson didnt have no PH.D and he was hella smart too. (Dont know why I'm mentioning him, but Mike did read over 10.000 books lol)... But for me, Pac was smart based on what he said and wrote, his interest in different social issues (that most ppl dont give a fuck about).

JoeTyler said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The Good

Artistic freedom

The Bad

Artistic freedom

paradox?

Dear Mama and Shoot Em Up. Good and Bad.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

JoeTyler said:

paradox?

Dear Mama and Shoot Em Up. Good and Bad.

Truth.com... I feel you

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Cause he represented everything in hip-hop.

The good and the bad.

The Good

Artistic freedom

great lyrics

likability

articulate

The Bad

Artistic freedom

Beef

Streets/Thug Life

Jail

Bingo! It's without say that in 2012, 2pac is THE most polarize recording artist in the history of any musical genre, not just hip-hop/rap. You like him OR dislike him, love him OR hate him, understand him OR misunderstand him.

Just like Prince, 2pac had 2 sides and they were both friends!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

JoeTyler said:

paradox?

Dear Mama and Shoot Em Up. Good and Bad.

Keep Your Head Up AND All About U.

Good and bad.

Folks, when you say "good and bad",

do you mean "sensitive/heartfelt and badass/ahole"

or "quality and crap"

?

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

To all of this. All you have to do is watch "Welcome to Death Row" to realize that Death Row Records really was a gang environment.

Pac and Prince are Geminis

None of these suckers now have anything on this man.

musicjunky318 said:

None of these suckers now have anything on this man.

NOBODY.... 2pac is probably the only rapper I would have seen live.... OTHERWISE, I aint wasting my money on no damn rap concert....

[Edited 4/17/12 11:58am]

Because he died so young and had more than a handful of enjoyable songs. "Dear Mama" is timeless song that will live on decades from now. Can you say that about any Drake or Lil' Wayne song? Hell, can you say that about any rap song from the last 15 years?

I was never into Pac's personal life, he was just like any other rapper. He made songs about glorifying women and then turned around and called them bitches. It's the name of the game lol. He played it very well.

JoeTyler said:

Folks, when you say "good and bad",

do you mean "sensitive/heartfelt and badass/ahole"

or "quality and crap"

?

sensitive/heartfelt and badass/asshole. Pretty much a anti-hero.

Even Shock G confirmed that 2pac was a rebel. Yes, that same 2pac that was once a roadie AND back-up dancer for Digital Underground was a rebel since day 1.

[Edited 4/18/12 13:11pm]

scriptgirl said:

Pac and Prince are Geminis

missfee said:

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

To all of this. All you have to do is watch "Welcome to Death Row" to realize that Death Row Records really was a gang environment.

The moment Dr. Dre watch in sheer horror the studto engineer getting beat down by Blood gang members for rewinding a record too far back, Dre waste no time at all in leaving Death Row Records. He even asked Jimmy Iovine to back him in starting Aftermath Entertainment. This was also around that time that Dre attempted (but failed!) to stay away from doing the gangsta subgenre of hip-hop/rap.

scriptgirl said:

It's been almost 20 years since his passing and yet, people are still checking for him. 20 years is a lifetime in pop culture, yet almost every teen and pre teen know who Pac is. Why? What was about the man that casts such a long media shadow?

I think Tupac resonates still because:

1). If you are cut down "before your time" you usually become larger life;

humans mythologize its tragedians

2). Tupac was genuine

Anyways, I enjoyed reading most of the posts in this thread - kudos to

scriptgirl!

thanks ducci

I think timmy hit it on the nail hard imo.

I Like Pac's social & political songs. And his first few albums where good..

But people think his ''thug life'' image was so cool & he is part of the reason for some of the shit hop of nowaday's. Sometimes he spoke & he had some good thing's to say. Other times he just sounded like another hood rat.

I used to be a big fan of him, now i am so-so

TonyVanDam said:

Graycap23 said:

Reality check. Dude was starting 2 believe his own hype. The only problem with that is the nonsense that happens on video shoots don't go down quite like that in the real world.

In fairness, 2pac did tell Mrs. Wallace (Biggie's mother) that she should never take anything that he said about Biggie too seriously because he only said it in order to sell record.

THIS^ was 2pac during his Death Row Records/G-Funk era of his career, at the height of the controversial east coast/west coast feud that was happening in hip-hop/rap at the time. And we know now that Jimmy Iovine & Clive Davis benefited financially from the 2pac VS. Biggie feud.

This is why I tell young kids today the real 2pac exist to me when I listen to his first 3 albums, because that 4th album (All Eyez On Me) overall was more of what Suge Knight wanted to stay in line with Interscope than what 2pac wanted.

It's been awhile since I've digested Pac's first three joints but if I'm not mistaken, I remember thinking back then that he reached his artistic peak on "Me Against The World."

Militant said:

Regarding the fight in Vegas - you guys simply do not understand the gang culture that existed within Death Row Records. Tupac had to prove his loyalty to Death Row and to Suge, until he'd released the material he owed them within the contract.

Do you know what happened to people at Death Row who didn't comply with what Suge wanted or weren't seen as being "loyal"? They got beat the fuck down themselves. Ask Warren G. Ask Sam Sneed. Sure, 'Pac made mistakes, but he was also a target. The Vegas thing was a part of an ongoing feud between Death Row Bloods and the South Side Compton Crips. It wasn't like he just got mad and stomped someone out for no reason.

The truth is that Pac wasn't going to stay with Death Row any longer than he had to. Part of the reason for being prolific and recording so music in his final year was because he WANTED OUT. He admitted that he felt he "sold his soul" to Death Row, but Suge was the ONLY one willing to put up his bail money. Even though he had a #1 record whilst in jail, Interscope were perfectly happy to just let him rot there.

Oh, well that's just a lovely excuse for it and excuses everything. Behaving like trash simply because you associate with trash is no excuse because he shouldn't have been associating with trash to begin with. If a piece of trash gang member on the street jumps on you and beats the hell out of you personally, would you excuse it simply because he was showing loyalty to his gang? Hell no, you wouldn't. He shouldn't have been involved in that bullshit to begin with.

Hell, this is supposed to be a music business, not a fucking prison yard. You never saw folks like Ray Parker, Jr. or Larry Blackman going around getting involved in foolish bullshit like that. Because they were musicians too busy making music to be involved in that shit. Even with folks like Rick James and Prince who hated each other, there was none of this stupid violence, simply two creative talented artists in a healthy competition. That's the difference in folks that actually belong in the music business because they have a natural musical talent and those with no musical talent whatsoever who are just there to be a damn minstrel show for white racists' pleasure.

Terrib3Towel said:

Because he died so young and had more than a handful of enjoyable songs. "Dear Mama" is timeless song that will live on decades from now. Can you say that about any Drake or Lil' Wayne song? Hell, can you say that about any rap song from the last 15 years?

I was never into Pac's personal life, he was just like any other rapper. He made songs about glorifying women and then turned around and called them bitches. It's the name of the game lol. He played it very well.

His greatest album was Me Against the World. I think that's the only album to make any "greatest album" list of his (though I think I saw All Eyez on a few lists too). But All Eyez was bloated and his first two albums showed great songs (in fact 2Pacalypse Now is underrated but it has a few fillers).