From another forum:

I've seen a few discussions on this board concerning this topic

and

from what I can sense, most of you all agree w/Miles.

I think there's legitimate points on both sides of the argument

but

there seems to be this disdain for Wynton because he, 1) takes the HipHop community to task over certain aspects of the culture and music that it indirectly and directly promotes.

2) he's viewed as being a self appointed gatekeeper on all things Jazz to which ppl think that attitude defeats the very purpose of Jazz itself which at its core represents artistic freedom.

I didn't see Miles' side of the argument. Give a rundown pls.

brooksie said:

I didn't see Miles' side of the argument. Give a rundown pls.

Wynton was too much of a purist. I was always on the side of Miles.

Original thread: http://board.okayplayer.c...1&page

In short, Wynton criticized Miles for deviating from traditional jazz

for the sake of commercialism - he actually said Miles was a sellout.

while Miles said Wynton was being too rigid in his stance on Jazz music

...

This reminds me of a debate that Wynton and Herbie Hancock had, in Musician magazine, back in the mid-80's. Wynton finally asked Herbie if he really felt the same fulfillment playing Pop as playing Jazz. Herbie replied, "Ok...I only feel truly fulfilled when I'm playing both......."

....

I always thought Miles was interested in propelling jazz forward and taking it into uncharted territory while Wynton's mind was stuck in the past.

The difference is that Miles was there from the inception of a lot of that music, whereas Wynton was coming to it as a second generation. He was treating it like classical music, which is part of the reason why jazz is dead...

guitarslinger44 said:

The difference is that Miles was there from the inception of a lot of that music, whereas Wynton was coming to it as a second generation. He was treating it like classical music, which is part of the reason why jazz is dead...

Elaborate?

Neither......jazz is a BORE.

Graycap23 said:

Neither......jazz is a BORE.

To my knowledge Miles Davis never engaged Wynton Marsalis on what Jazz was or wasn't. For a man who was never known to hold his tongue and tell how he really felt, Mr. Davis pretty much ignored anything windbag Wyton Marsalis had to say. Davis should have, Marsalis is a fraud and can't swing.

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[Edited 5/21/12 9:32am]

My vote goes to Miles. Unlike Wynton, Miles had absolutely no problem with experimenting with other sounds from other musical genres.

The biggest problem I have with jazz purists (besides Wynton) today is that deep down, they are really straight up haters toward fusion. By hating on fusion, they not only hating on Miles for his later works, they are also hating on Joe Zawinul, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, and many other jazz artists that had no problem with co-existing with electric guitars, electric organs, keyboard synths, drum machines, and other advance music technologies of the moment.

smoothcriminal12 said:

guitarslinger44 said:

The difference is that Miles was there from the inception of a lot of that music, whereas Wynton was coming to it as a second generation. He was treating it like classical music, which is part of the reason why jazz is dead...

Elaborate?

Jazz "died" when the genre known as smooth jazz (which is really r&b instrumental) made its debut in the mainstream, mostly with Kenny G as the main star from that genre.

Graycap23 said:

Neither......jazz is a BORE.

I strongly disagree. Have you ever heard of The Rebirth Brass Band? These mofos make jazz very interesting and funky!

[Edited 5/21/12 10:27am]

They're both right in certain areas. I can see both sides.
Wynton upholding tradition and standards, Miles wanting to push the envelope.


“Jazz is not just 'Well, man, this is what I feel like playing.' It's a very structured thing that comes down from a tradition and requires a lot of thought and study.”

~ Wynton Marsalis


“Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.”

~ Miles Davis

Music for adventurous listeners


tA

Tribal Records

“Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.”

~ Miles Davis

upholding tradition

If people only followed tradition, most of the music made in the 1900's would not exist. Everyone would only play acoustic instruments and there wouldn't be recorded music. It would just be sheet music and concerts.

[Edited 5/21/12 14:06pm]

HuMpThAnG said:

You just had to go here?

http://new.prince.org/msg/8/352377

^

I've given my opinion about this before I see no need to repeat myself if you care to read it so be it if you don't that's cool too. Its unfortunate this fictional one sided debate has become a Davis vs Marsalis. It never happened....

purplethunder3121 said:

“Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.”

~ Miles Davis

This.

I like Wynton. His heart is in the right place.

He doesn't want the genre to become a watered-down pop mess.

I read his book and what stuck out is when he said something about The Beatles and how they might not be able to play or sing(paraphrasing) but they are doing the best they can and are trying to do their best, so of course they're going to put out a better pop record then a Jazz artist, who isn't trying his best when he puts out a pop or rock record. In other words their heart isn't in it to begin with.

He went on to say no Jazz artist will ever put out a good rock album compared to a rock group because the rock group is more authentic.

BTW Wynton can play VERY well.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Original thread: http://board.okayplayer.c...1&page

In short, Wynton criticized Miles for deviating from traditional jazz

for the sake of commercialism - he actually said Miles was a sellout.

while Miles said Wynton was being too rigid in his stance on Jazz music

That's about what I thought. Took me about two seconds to decide:

Miles.

What if nobody had ever deviated from traditional jazz modes after 1930 because they were afraid of offending Wynton Marsalis? Wynton would be playing Dixieland.

There is a place for the neo-classicists which is basically where Wynton is at. But don't give him too much credit for moving the music forward. He would get offended.

I don't like all of Miles' later period works and maybe it would have been nice to see him live in the eighties doing a greatest hits type of show, but it also would have been totally out of character. You went to see Miles, you saw what he was into that day.

He is the definition of progressive music.

I really should read Wynton's book before registering much of an opinion. That said, he comes off as pretentious at times and that probably gives Miles something of an edge here! Given how diff things are w/ NoLA and it's jazz scene vs everybody else, Wynton's stance (as paraphrased) makes some sense to me.

My personal prefs are for "hot jazz" made between about 1900-middle 30s. The Big Band era also interests me, but the Be Bop era kinda leaves me cold. IOW, I come w/ my own biases.

Some really interesting ideas on here. I didnt know jazz was dead or a bore.lol. I wonder if people in NOLA know that? Im not generally into pitting people against each other as I dont think it is very productive. They are from different eras styles and both are unique. But, I certainly respect WM more as an individual and artist for how he has seemed to live his life, the music he has produced and the lifelong work he has done to educate young people and promote the music. For example, a work like Blood on the Fields (not to forget Cassandra Wilsons spectacular performance). I can't think of MD doing anything even close.

MD music reflected his life despite how some people dont seem to not want to acknowledge that the personal is political. He chose to lead a certain life (drugs, drinking, wife beating CTyson etc) and as he went further down that road in his later years his music got worse and worse. I find many of his later performance really difficult to watch or listen to. I agree with much of the things that WM has said regarding the route jazz took in the 70's etc and think much of it was self indulgent junk fuelled by drugs ego etc. and then the influence of corporations and music for profit which most def impacted and influenced MD considering his state at that point in his life.

[Edited 5/23/12 10:11am]

juliejuliejulie said:

Some really interesting ideas on here. I didnt know jazz was dead or a bore.lol. I wonder if people in NOLA know that? Im not generally into pitting people against each other as I dont think it is very productive. They are from different eras styles and both are unique. But, I certainly respect WM more as an individual and artist for how he has seemed to live his life, the music he has produced and the lifelong work he has done to educate young people and promote the music. For example, a work like Blood on the Fields (not to forget Cassandra Wilsons spectacular performance). I can't think of MD doing anything even close.

MD music reflected his life despite how some people dont seem to not want to acknowledge that the personal is political. He chose to lead a certain life (drugs, drinking, wife beating CTyson etc) and as he went further down that road in his later years his music got worse and worse. I find many of his later performance really difficult to watch or listen to. I agree with much of the things that WM has said regarding the route jazz took in the 70's etc and think much of it was self indulgent junk fuelled by drugs ego etc. and then the influence of corporations and music for profit which most def impacted and influenced MD considering his state at that point in his life.

[Edited 5/23/12 10:11am]

Lol.....the definition of BORE.

Graycap23 said:

juliejuliejulie said:

Some really interesting ideas on here. I didnt know jazz was dead or a bore.lol. I wonder if people in NOLA know that? Im not generally into pitting people against each other as I dont think it is very productive. They are from different eras styles and both are unique. But, I certainly respect WM more as an individual and artist for how he has seemed to live his life, the music he has produced and the lifelong work he has done to educate young people and promote the music. For example, a work like Blood on the Fields (not to forget Cassandra Wilsons spectacular performance). I can't think of MD doing anything even close.

MD music reflected his life despite how some people dont seem to not want to acknowledge that the personal is political. He chose to lead a certain life (drugs, drinking, wife beating CTyson etc) and as he went further down that road in his later years his music got worse and worse. I find many of his later performance really difficult to watch or listen to. I agree with much of the things that WM has said regarding the route jazz took in the 70's etc and think much of it was self indulgent junk fuelled by drugs ego etc. and then the influence of corporations and music for profit which most def impacted and influenced MD considering his state at that point in his life.

[Edited 5/23/12 10:11am]

Lol.....the definition of BORE.

Yeah YOUR definition.

Oh, so drugs just popped up in the 70's? Hell, many of Davies contemporaries didn't make it to see the 60's. Miles Davis was born an asshole and he died an asshole... not a good person by any stretch of the imaganation. But if you listened to his discography and the only information you had were the liner notes... then you'd speak only of his brilliance as a musician. To say forthright that the personal is naturally connected to the political, is rubbish. People have a tendency to bring up the personal when they can't refute or discredit achievement. As the saying goes, "People who live in glass houses........" On the other hand American has reduced its intellectual discourse to the level of a 1930's Hollywood movie.

Timmy84 said:

Graycap23 said:

Lol.....the definition of BORE.

Yeah YOUR definition.

4 sho. My ears as well..............