larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

I don't have a problem with sampling or cover songs but 2 say that is it as difficult as creating something original is just plain silly.

There have been some great cover songs over the years, House is not a Home, Strawberry Letter 23, I feel 4 U........and others. it has it's place.

Again, you still have yet to answer how that is just plain "silly". I'll take one of the covers you used for example (I feel for you), you don't think that was an original take on something that someone else created or do you think it was pretty easy because well they didn't create it?

Also, I'm not calling your opinion silly dude, I'm just debating.

Check, your move.

Take a way samples from a sample artist he has NO music. Take away samples from Prince, his career is unchanged.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:12am]

delicious said:

man he's so genius at slowing songs down or speeding them up and then putting some drums on them. He's definitaly one fo the greats at slowing songs down or speeding them up and then putting some drums on them.

In some songs..but have you ever seen him live with a real orchestra and horns sampling those songs as well? In some tunes he has a electric guitar distorted guitar, real drums, real bass and synths playing along with the sample.

Know your Kanye.

Kanye West is an awful rapper. His lyrics could be written by a 5 year old.

But give credit where credit is due - to the artists he sampled

Sampling is fine, it's just the magnitude of songs he has sampled, aswell as 'not making them his own'. It comes to the point where he is just stealing music, but it's ok, as long as he pays for it.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:15am]

This HAS to be a generational thing!

Sampling I'm sure isn't as easy as it sounds if done creatively, BUT, and it's a strong but, as someone so wisely stated, a sample artist HAS to have samples in order to "create". An original artist creates the song (comes up with the melody, harmony, lyrics, someone mixes and produces it, sections are sometimes done multiple times to get the sound right) that the sample artist samples.

With all that framework already established, I just find it hard to fathom that someone would think the former is just as hard as the latter.

Generational?

CynicKill said:

This HAS to be a generational thing!

Sampling I'm sure isn't as easy as it sounds if done creatively, BUT, and it's a strong but, as someone so wisely stated, a sample artist HAS to have samples in order to "create". An original artist creates the song (comes up with the melody, harmony, lyrics, someone mixes and produces it, sections are sometimes done multiple times to get the sound right) that the sample artist samples.

With all that framework already established, I just find it hard to fathom that someone would think the former is just as hard as the latter.

Generational?

Does generational = ignorance?

Azz said:

Kanye West is an awful rapper. His lyrics could be written by a 5 year old.

But give credit where credit is due - to the artists he sampled

Sampling is fine, it's just the magnitude of songs he has sampled, aswell as 'not making them his own'. It comes to the point where he is just stealing music, but it's ok, as long as he pays for it.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:15am]

Part of why I stopped complaining about sampling was also because these artists get paid (most of the time) for their tracks being sampled.

Their songs are not getting any play on the radio or being aknowledged like other artists not in the r&b genre..especially funk and soul. So sample away...I learned alot more from samples than I have just listening to the radio growing up half the time. Like I said about Kanye though is not that he is only sampling, he has live instruments playing on top of the songs.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:27am]

paisleypark4 said:

Azz said:

Kanye West is an awful rapper. His lyrics could be written by a 5 year old.

But give credit where credit is due - to the artists he sampled

Sampling is fine, it's just the magnitude of songs he has sampled, aswell as 'not making them his own'. It comes to the point where he is just stealing music, but it's ok, as long as he pays for it.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:15am]

Part of why I stopped complaining about sampling was also because these artists get paid (most of the time) for their tracks being sampled.

Their songs are not getting any play on the radio or being aknowledged like other artists not in the r&b genre..especially funk and soul. So sample away...I learned alot more from samples than I have just listening to the radio growing up half the time. Like I said about Kanye though is not that he is only sampling, he has live instruments playing on top of the songs.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:27am]

I agree. It doesn't really bother me too much. Kanye (if he is the one who is behiind all the sampling) clearly has a good ear for music.

It sometimes seems like no artist is creating anymore, instead, just sampling.

Graycap23 said:

CynicKill said:

This HAS to be a generational thing!

Sampling I'm sure isn't as easy as it sounds if done creatively, BUT, and it's a strong but, as someone so wisely stated, a sample artist HAS to have samples in order to "create". An original artist creates the song (comes up with the melody, harmony, lyrics, someone mixes and produces it, sections are sometimes done multiple times to get the sound right) that the sample artist samples.

With all that framework already established, I just find it hard to fathom that someone would think the former is just as hard as the latter.

Generational?

Does generational = ignorance?

Um...I'm just saying that current generations grew up in a climate where sampling was so pervasive, so they might have a different viewpoint on the subject.

Or maybe some things have to be graded on a curve nowadays. It's like saying "American Pie" is just as good a movie as "Michael Clayton".

Azz said:

paisleypark4 said:

Part of why I stopped complaining about sampling was also because these artists get paid (most of the time) for their tracks being sampled.

Their songs are not getting any play on the radio or being aknowledged like other artists not in the r&b genre..especially funk and soul. So sample away...I learned alot more from samples than I have just listening to the radio growing up half the time. Like I said about Kanye though is not that he is only sampling, he has live instruments playing on top of the songs.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:27am]

I agree. It doesn't really bother me too much. Kanye (if he is the one who is behiind all the sampling) clearly has a good ear for music.

It sometimes seems like no artist is creating anymore, instead, just sampling.

My point exactly.

CynicKill said:

Graycap23 said:

Does generational = ignorance?

Um...I'm just saying that current generations grew up in a climate where sampling was so pervasive, so they might have a different viewpoint on the subject.

Or maybe some things have to be graded on a curve nowadays. It's like saying "American Pie" is just as good a movie as "Michael Clayton".

I think u are correct but the answer is still wrong. There is no comparison between creating original work and sampling, PERIOD.

Graycap23 said:

CynicKill said:

Um...I'm just saying that current generations grew up in a climate where sampling was so pervasive, so they might have a different viewpoint on the subject.

Or maybe some things have to be graded on a curve nowadays. It's like saying "American Pie" is just as good a movie as "Michael Clayton".

I think u are correct but the answer is still wrong. There is no comparison between creating original work and sampling, PERIOD.

It seems possible (that a sample could help produce a song better than the original), but never happens.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:53am]

Whoever put together that video has too much time on their hands....

Kanye's sampling has gotten better, but he's no DJ Premier.

CynicKill said:

Azz said:

I agree. It doesn't really bother me too much. Kanye (if he is the one who is behiind all the sampling) clearly has a good ear for music.

It sometimes seems like no artist is creating anymore, instead, just sampling.

My point exactly.

There are alot of people who have a good ear for music, though.

Whilst Kanye is talented, where do his talents lie? Solely with his production. An ability which he seemingly cannot do on his own without the aid of mostly classic or extremely good songs.

Graycap23 said:

CynicKill said:

Um...I'm just saying that current generations grew up in a climate where sampling was so pervasive, so they might have a different viewpoint on the subject.

Or maybe some things have to be graded on a curve nowadays. It's like saying "American Pie" is just as good a movie as "Michael Clayton".

I think u are correct but the answer is still wrong. There is no comparison between creating original work and sampling, PERIOD.

Dude, I like how you sling your insults on the sly (ignorance, really?). CynicKill may have a point about the varying viewpoints being generational. However, I made a very good point as it relates to cover songs that you constantly fail to address. I will also make another point as it relates to the song Dirty Mind. Dr. Fink wrote the basic synth line for the song. Prince took that added a bridge, lyrics, bass, guitar, and drums. That is pretty much the same logic behind people who sample creatively (hell, Prince himself has done it). So you're telling me that by taking that and then adding their own ideas to it must be really easy because it was someone else's idea? I expect another vague response because you can't address this debate head on it seems. You can just say, ok....

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

I think u are correct but the answer is still wrong. There is no comparison between creating original work and sampling, PERIOD.

Dude, I like how you sling your insults on the sly (ignorance, really?). CynicKill may have a point about the varying viewpoints being generational. However, I made a very good point as it relates to cover songs that you constantly fail to address. I will also make another point as it relates to the song Dirty Mind. Dr. Fink wrote the basic synth line for the song. Prince took that added a bridge, lyrics, bass, guitar, and drums. That is pretty much the same logic behind people who sample creatively (hell, Prince himself has done it). So you're telling me that by taking that and then adding their own ideas to it must be really easy because it was someone else's idea? I expect another vague response because you can't address this debate head on it seems. You can just say, ok....

How many songs has Prince created? U pulled one of of 1,000's as your point? Wow.

Graycap23 said:

larksanders said:

Dude, I like how you sling your insults on the sly (ignorance, really?). CynicKill may have a point about the varying viewpoints being generational. However, I made a very good point as it relates to cover songs that you constantly fail to address. I will also make another point as it relates to the song Dirty Mind. Dr. Fink wrote the basic synth line for the song. Prince took that added a bridge, lyrics, bass, guitar, and drums. That is pretty much the same logic behind people who sample creatively (hell, Prince himself has done it). So you're telling me that by taking that and then adding their own ideas to it must be really easy because it was someone else's idea? I expect another vague response because you can't address this debate head on it seems. You can just say, ok....

How many songs has Prince created? U pulled one of of 1,000's as your point? Wow.

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about sampling here. All of your comments are basically saying I don't know what i'm talking about because I said that if done creatively sampling can be just as hard as writing an original composition. I have given you examples (one as a cover and probably one of your favorite songs), yet you still avoid the debate. Dude, it's ok if we have a difference in opinion, it doesn't make yours any less valid. I respect yours, but you can at least make a rebuttal without slinging sly insults. So far you have failed at that.

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

How many songs has Prince created? U pulled one of of 1,000's as your point? Wow.

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about sampling here. All of your comments are basically saying I don't know what i'm talking about because I said that if done creatively sampling can be just as hard as writing an original composition. I have given you examples (one as a cover and probably one of your favorite songs), yet you still avoid the debate. Dude, it's ok if we have a difference in opinion, it doesn't make yours any less valid. I respect yours, but you can at least make a rebuttal without slinging sly insults. So far you have failed at that.

Lol............last I checked that cat was a part of Prince's band. How is that remotely compared 2 sampling?

Graycap23 said:

larksanders said:

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about sampling here. All of your comments are basically saying I don't know what i'm talking about because I said that if done creatively sampling can be just as hard as writing an original composition. I have given you examples (one as a cover and probably one of your favorite songs), yet you still avoid the debate. Dude, it's ok if we have a difference in opinion, it doesn't make yours any less valid. I respect yours, but you can at least make a rebuttal without slinging sly insults. So far you have failed at that.

Lol............last I checked that cat was a part of Prince's band. How is that remotely compared 2 sampling?

I guess you didn't really rebuttal. I said that what Prince did with Dr. Fink's synth line is pretty much the same logic behind creative sampling (taking a piece of something someone else did and making your own song around it). Don't be confused here, I'm not talking about a Puff Daddy song, I'm talking about stuff that Dj Shadow has done, Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces has done, etc.

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

Lol............last I checked that cat was a part of Prince's band. How is that remotely compared 2 sampling?

I guess you didn't really rebuttal. I said that what Prince did with Dr. Fink's synth line is pretty much the same logic behind creative sampling (taking a piece of something someone else did and making your own song around it). Don't be confused here, I'm not talking about a Puff Daddy song, I'm talking about stuff that Dj Shadow has done, Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces has done, etc.

I can live without sampling.......of any kind.

I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)

Gunsnhalen said:

HAHAHAH. This was hilarious.

Graycap23 said:

larksanders said:

I guess you didn't really rebuttal. I said that what Prince did with Dr. Fink's synth line is pretty much the same logic behind creative sampling (taking a piece of something someone else did and making your own song around it). Don't be confused here, I'm not talking about a Puff Daddy song, I'm talking about stuff that Dj Shadow has done, Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces has done, etc.

I can live without sampling.......of any kind.

I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)

Cool man. Again, I bet there is a song that you've heard and liked and didn't even know there was a sample used.

Oh and I guess you didn't like the songs Prince created on the computer (linn Drum).

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

I can live without sampling.......of any kind.

I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)

Cool man. Again, I bet there is a song that you've heard and liked and didn't even know there was a sample used.

Oh and I guess you didn't like the songs Prince created on the computer (linn Drum).

I'll bet there isn't.

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

I can live without sampling.......of any kind.

I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)

Cool man. Again, I bet there is a song that you've heard and liked and didn't even know there was a sample used.

Oh and I guess you didn't like the songs Prince created on the computer (linn Drum).

This is completely different than sampling though.

CynicKill said:

larksanders said:

Cool man. Again, I bet there is a song that you've heard and liked and didn't even know there was a sample used.

Oh and I guess you didn't like the songs Prince created on the computer (linn Drum).

This is completely different than sampling though.

Tell him again................

[Edited 4/10/12 11:56am]

larksanders said:

Gunsnhalen said:

HAHAHAH. This was hilarious.

I think this is silly... i won't lie. I used to have the same thought that sampling was people stealing real musicians shit. But as i said it can be done in a clever manor & hell lots of musicians have sampled to.

And to graycap what about artists who sample but also make there own stuff?

For Example The Roots, The Fugees & De La Soul

They sampled, but also played live guitars, drums, bass etc. To go with certain tracks...

There musicians and they sampled to

Gunsnhalen said:

larksanders said:

HAHAHAH. This was hilarious.

I think this is silly... i won't lie. I used to have the same thought that sampling was people stealing real musicians shit. But as i said it can be done in a clever manor & hell lots of musicians have sampled to.

And to graycap what about artists who sample but also make there own stuff?

For Example The Roots, The Fugees & De La Soul

They sampled, but also played live guitars, drums, bass etc. To go with certain tracks...

There musicians and they sampled to

I'm not mad at the samplers.....more power 2 them, but 4 anyone 2 say that sampling is harder than creating an original track is insulting.

Graycap23 said:

CynicKill said:

This is completely different than sampling though.

Tell him again................

[Edited 4/10/12 11:56am]

I'm aware that a Linn Drum is completely different from sampling. My comment was a response to "I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)". It's funny because my uncle (who is a drummer) was so against people who used drum machines. Pretty much making the same arguement that it doesn't take talent, it's just a loop, etc. I always said you had a band or a session drummer play your beats, none of this digital stuff. CynicKill, I guess you're right. This must be generational. Does it mean that either side is wrong though?

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

Tell him again................

[Edited 4/10/12 11:56am]

I'm aware that a Linn Drum is completely different from sampling. My comment was a response to "I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)". It's funny because my uncle (who is a drummer) was so against people who used drum machines. Pretty much making the same arguement that it doesn't take talent, it's just a loop, etc. I always said you had a band or a session drummer play your beats, none of this digital stuff. CynicKill, I guess you're right. This must be generational. Does it mean that either side is wrong though?

What part of acoustic or DIGITAL was not clear?

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

Tell him again................

[Edited 4/10/12 11:56am]

I'm aware that a Linn Drum is completely different from sampling. My comment was a response to "I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)". It's funny because my uncle (who is a drummer) was so against people who used drum machines. Pretty much making the same arguement that it doesn't take talent, it's just a loop, etc. I always said you had a band or a session drummer play your beats, none of this digital stuff. CynicKill, I guess you're right. This must be generational. Does it mean that either side is wrong though?

Not sure. It definitely means that there will not be an agreement on the subject.

Also, no one is criticizing particular artists for sampling(The Roots was used as an example). The question was is sampling as creative, as hard, as coming up with a song on the fly.

Personally let me say this, if a sampler used sampled sounds (drum hits, keyboard notes, effects) and put them together to create a song I feel that is a whole lot more creative then using that oft used Debarge sample "Stay With Me" as your whole foundation. To say it's just as hard to record that track as it was for El Debarge to write it and for the muscians to play on it kinda escapes me.