SUPRMAN said:

HotGritz said:

True but i don't trust addicts to make the right decisions where their health and livelihood are concerned. That's why I say the people around her bare some responsibility. If you know someone is sick, you don't aid them in worsening their condition. How many of us would give chocolate cake to a known diabetic?

I disagree. No one was forcing Whitney to take drugs or be around those who would supply and use with her.

Being an addict doesn't mean you can no longer make choices. Addicts still make decisions, although not necessarily in their best interest.

The people who were around there were there because of Whitney. Who believes if she didn't want you around you'd be gone? I'd say most of us.

A diabetic can still say no to chocolate cake being offered. Being offered chocolate cake will not kill a diabetic. Eating it without regard for other relevant factors might.

I didn't say anybody forced her to use drugs or forced her to associate with people who use drugs. That is not my point at all.

My point is that drugs impair one's judgement and can keep you from making choices that are in your best interest as opposed to choices that would bring harm to yourself and others. Why do you think we have laws against drunk driving? Because we have learned that an impaired person is a danger to themselves and others.

People who were around Whitney were there because of what Whitney could do for them. Whitney was a superstar with great earning power , she was a beloved icon and THAT'S why she had an entourage and that's why she was surrounded by people who most likely would let her do whatever she wanted even if what she wanted was not good for her.

A diabetic can still say no? Well that depends. Is the diabetic a child? An elderly person suffering dimentia? Being offered something and consuming something are two different things. I still contend that if someone offers you something bad, watches you consume something bad, doesn't discourage you from using something then they are an enabler and in Whitney's case, an enabler is not what she needed in her life. Without such persons, she might still be alive.

Look at people like Tom Sizemore, Lindsay Lohan, and El Debarge. One can argue that what they all have in common are a fake and weak network of friends/fans/family along with a desire to beat their addiction. The problem lies in the equation. A weak support group or lack of support is not conducive to a full recovery and sober lifestyle. If one wants and needs help, one must be around people who are able and willing to help you get the help you need. Dr. Drew, as much as he irritates me, made a good point when he mentioned that the nights before Whitney's death she was at the club drinking champagne. Her friends allowed her to party with alchohol knowing she had just gotten out of rehab a few months prior. Who the hell encourages an addict to fall off the wagon?

The people around her bare some responsibility. Bottom line!

HotGritz said:

^ Bob you should be thankful that you have a responsible doctor who only gives you 30 pills at a time but um.....if you are in so much control then why are still taking Vicodin at all?

Are you to be trusted when you are high on vicodin or are you to be trusted when the drug is not in your system?

Where's you support network or are you really fighting the battle all on your own? Lastly how long have you been an addict?

I ask the questions because I don't want this thread to paint a picture that all addicts are the same and that no one could use help fighting their addiction and the people around us have no impact.

I simply don't believe that nonsense. If all addicts could just kick a drug all on their own and didn't need positive people in their lives then all these rehab and treatment centers are a joke. The self-help books are a joke and no drug dealer should spend a day in prison.

allsmutaside said:

HotGritz said:

True but i don't trust addicts to make the right decisions where their health and livelihood are concerned. That's why I say the people around her bare some responsibility. If you know someone is sick, you don't aid them in worsening their condition. How many of us would give chocolate cake to a known diabetic?

Without a doubt. It is especially galling that her people, many who were her family and others who were chosen, seem to want to cast aspersions on Bobby. Bobby is who l feel compasion for most right now; how does he sort all of this out? I do not think he is a bad man, just a wild child grown old without growing up. None of those in her inner circle are speaking about their collective or individual roles in enabling Whitney. (I had no idea until recently that her brother and his second wife may have also been heavy substance abusers, using right along with her.) Her mom must be feeling crazy responsible, no matter what she speaks of in public. That water temperature sounds strange as hell to me. Especially if I was doing some coke I would not be able to get into that water of my own choice. Whitney was a clearly a strong willed woman, making her choices. But I tend to think that because of her substance use she was susceptable to people around her clouding or manipulating the choices that were in front of her. Clive Davis as one of the authors of her "comeback" - in terms of the pace it took and how soon it started after her tender sobriety was established, leaves me feeling he was one who may have pushed it further and faster than was remotely resonable, and chose to ignore the obvious. "Stevie Wonder sees crack babies." The truth in that line is as deep as it ever was.

I remember commenting on this site about her not being ready yet for that European tour she got internationally hammered for. I believe Clive like many other managers and label heads was using Europe as a warm up for the States. Kind of how D'Angelo just did. However, Whitney wasn't even ready for that yet. Her vocal chords hadn't healed and strengthened enough. Her vocal coach said if he had more time, he would've been able to get her voice a lot stronger than it was by the time she passed. He based this on the progress they had made up to that point. Not to mention the obvious point of her still using.

Let me be clear, I blame Whitney for Whitney. But it didn't help when she agreed to do that tour. Clive should have waited until the doctor and Whitney was confident in her abilities. I don't recall ever in her career, her being lambasted for her voice like she did constantly during that tour. In this age and time, with YouTube, the news spreaded Stateside as quick as click on the keyboard. I believe all that negative press on her voice took a toll on her (to say the least).

[Edited 4/5/12 11:19am]

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

I definitely think Whitney had some major problems and was very insecure.

I dont think she was insecure in fact she was the exact opposite

She was very outgoing and seemed fun to be around. I think similiar to someone else I wont mentioned, she needed people around her that really care for her well being. Its obvious she did alot for others and had a good spirit. People had nothing but kind words to say about her and her faith was strong in the lord. I thought she had high esteem but she couldnt battle her demons alone unfornately

I don't buy that. For her to be strong willed, totally, she would have the opportunity to get over her demons. She was God fearing, I give you that, and she probably tried to be strong for her daughter but I think she probably has issues that even her own family wasn't aware of so she had to talk to God about her issues hence why she was always going to church and reading the Bible.

Musicslave said:

allsmutaside said:

Without a doubt. It is especially galling that her people, many who were her family and others who were chosen, seem to want to cast aspersions on Bobby. Bobby is who l feel compasion for most right now; how does he sort all of this out? I do not think he is a bad man, just a wild child grown old without growing up. None of those in her inner circle are speaking about their collective or individual roles in enabling Whitney. (I had no idea until recently that her brother and his second wife may have also been heavy substance abusers, using right along with her.) Her mom must be feeling crazy responsible, no matter what she speaks of in public. That water temperature sounds strange as hell to me. Especially if I was doing some coke I would not be able to get into that water of my own choice. Whitney was a clearly a strong willed woman, making her choices. But I tend to think that because of her substance use she was susceptable to people around her clouding or manipulating the choices that were in front of her. Clive Davis as one of the authors of her "comeback" - in terms of the pace it took and how soon it started after her tender sobriety was established, leaves me feeling he was one who may have pushed it further and faster than was remotely resonable, and chose to ignore the obvious. "Stevie Wonder sees crack babies." The truth in that line is as deep as it ever was.

I remember commenting on this site about her not being ready yet for that European tour she got internationally hammered for. I believe Clive like many other managers and label heads was using Europe as a warm up for the States. Kind of how D'Angelo just did. However, Whitney wasn't even ready for that yet. Her vocal chords hadn't healed and strengthened enough. Her vocal coach said if he had more time, he would've been able to get her voice a lot stronger than it was by the time she passed. He based this on the progress they had made up to that point. Not to mention the obvious point of her still using.

Let me be clear, I blame Whitney for Whitney. But it didn't help when she agreed to do that tour. Clive should have waited until the doctor and Whitney was confident in her abilities. I don't recall ever in her career, her being lambasted for her voice like she did constantly during that tour. In this age and time, with YouTube, the news spreaded Stateside as quick as click on the keyboard. I believe all that negative press on her voice took a toll on her (to say the least).

[Edited 4/5/12 11:19am]

Agree with both of you about Whit's comeback being too soon and her being ill prepared but hey....Clive is a business man first and a mentor second.

On the subject of negative press...that's another thing that is incredibly dangerous for a celebrity addict. Why are people always waiting for the celeb to fuck up? The same thing happened with Robert Downey Jr. As talented as he was/is, the media seemed always to be eagerly awaiting his relapse. Thank God he met his wife who was instrumental in his recovery and thank God his mother got some in the medical community to address his bipolar disorder. Pre-existing mental health issues can also contribute to drug addiction and the inability to overcome it.

Musicslave said:

allsmutaside said:

Without a doubt. It is especially galling that her people, many who were her family and others who were chosen, seem to want to cast aspersions on Bobby. Bobby is who l feel compasion for most right now; how does he sort all of this out? I do not think he is a bad man, just a wild child grown old without growing up. None of those in her inner circle are speaking about their collective or individual roles in enabling Whitney. (I had no idea until recently that her brother and his second wife may have also been heavy substance abusers, using right along with her.) Her mom must be feeling crazy responsible, no matter what she speaks of in public. That water temperature sounds strange as hell to me. Especially if I was doing some coke I would not be able to get into that water of my own choice. Whitney was a clearly a strong willed woman, making her choices. But I tend to think that because of her substance use she was susceptable to people around her clouding or manipulating the choices that were in front of her. Clive Davis as one of the authors of her "comeback" - in terms of the pace it took and how soon it started after her tender sobriety was established, leaves me feeling he was one who may have pushed it further and faster than was remotely resonable, and chose to ignore the obvious. "Stevie Wonder sees crack babies." The truth in that line is as deep as it ever was.

I remember commenting on this site about her not being ready yet for that European tour she got internationally hammered for. I believe Clive like many other managers and label heads was using Europe as a warm up for the States. Kind of how D'Angelo just did. However, Whitney wasn't even ready for that yet. Her vocal chords hadn't healed and strengthened enough. Her vocal coach said if he had more time, he would've been able to get her voice a lot stronger than it was by the time she passed. He based this on the progress they had made up to that point. Not to mention the obvious point of her still using.

Let me be clear, I blame Whitney for Whitney. But it didn't help when she agreed to do that tour. Clive should have waited until the doctor and Whitney was confident in her abilities. I don't recall ever in her career, her being lambasted for her voice like she did constantly during that tour. In this age and time, with YouTube, the news spreaded Stateside as quick as click on the keyboard. I believe all that negative press on her voice took a toll on her (to say the least).

[Edited 4/5/12 11:19am]

I agree. The tour definitely didn't help matters. I felt real sorry for her then. I'd thought when she was doing "Sparkle" that slowly she was getting it together. Alas it wasn't to be.

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

I dont think she was insecure in fact she was the exact opposite

She was very outgoing and seemed fun to be around. I think similiar to someone else I wont mentioned, she needed people around her that really care for her well being. Its obvious she did alot for others and had a good spirit. People had nothing but kind words to say about her and her faith was strong in the lord. I thought she had high esteem but she couldnt battle her demons alone unfornately

I don't buy that. For her to be strong willed, totally, she would have the opportunity to get over her demons. She was God fearing, I give you that, and she probably tried to be strong for her daughter but I think she probably has issues that even her own family wasn't aware of so she had to talk to God about her issues hence why she was always going to church and reading the Bible.

How hard it must bet to struggle with such demons/issues and have nobody to talk to or confess to ( or be afraid to talk/confess) but still needing to put on this brave face and be the superstar that everyone wants and expects.

HotGritz said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't buy that. For her to be strong willed, totally, she would have the opportunity to get over her demons. She was God fearing, I give you that, and she probably tried to be strong for her daughter but I think she probably has issues that even her own family wasn't aware of so she had to talk to God about her issues hence why she was always going to church and reading the Bible.

How hard it must bet to struggle with such demons/issues and have nobody to talk to or confess to ( or be afraid to talk/confess) but still needing to put on this brave face and be the superstar that everyone wants and expects.

Right, no one knows how hard life of being in the public eye really is. It's a different animal altogether. While I never bought her being "real strong", she wasn't "real weak" either. Stress can wear down on even those who appear to be confident. Fame is a bitch!

Timmy84 said:

mjscarousal said:

I dont think she was insecure in fact she was the exact opposite

She was very outgoing and seemed fun to be around. I think similiar to someone else I wont mentioned, she needed people around her that really care for her well being. Its obvious she did alot for others and had a good spirit. People had nothing but kind words to say about her and her faith was strong in the lord. I thought she had high esteem but she couldnt battle her demons alone unfornately

I don't buy that. For her to be strong willed, totally, she would have the opportunity to get over her demons. She was God fearing, I give you that, and she probably tried to be strong for her daughter but I think she probably has issues that even her own family wasn't aware of so she had to talk to God about her issues hence why she was always going to church and reading the Bible.

I definitly agree with that but when you say "insecure" I thought you were implying something else. Like she had low self esteem. To be honest no one knows she might of had issues with how she viewed herself but how she acted around others I didnt get that from her.

mjscarousal said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't buy that. For her to be strong willed, totally, she would have the opportunity to get over her demons. She was God fearing, I give you that, and she probably tried to be strong for her daughter but I think she probably has issues that even her own family wasn't aware of so she had to talk to God about her issues hence why she was always going to church and reading the Bible.

I definitly agree with that but when you say "insecure" I thought you were implying something else. Like she had low self esteem. To be honest no one knows she might of had issues with how she viewed herself but how she acted around others I didnt get that from her.

Everybody has low self esteem issues, it's just some people know how to hide it.

Fame is a bitch I couldnt deal with the pressure that's why some turned to drugs just for an escape.. The autopsy confirms Whitney was a chronic user and hopefully her death would be a learning lesson for all of us

Timmy84 said:

HotGritz said:

How hard it must bet to struggle with such demons/issues and have nobody to talk to or confess to ( or be afraid to talk/confess) but still needing to put on this brave face and be the superstar that everyone wants and expects.

Right, no one knows how hard life of being in the public eye really is. It's a different animal altogether. While I never bought her being "real strong", she wasn't "real weak" either. Stress can wear down on even those who appear to be confident. Fame is a bitch!

Wasn't she going she supposed to sing that Saturday night at Clive's Pre-Grammy Party?

HotGritz said:

BobGeorge909 said:

HotGritz said:

^ Bob you should be thankful that you have a responsible doctor who only gives you 30 pills at a time but um.....if you are in so much control then why are still taking Vicodin at all?

I have crohn's disease and in occasion it causes me amounts of abdominal is much rather not deal with. Not every day, just in occasion.

Are you to be trusted when you are high on vicodin or are you to be trusted when the drug is not in your system?

I trust myself to a degree, not absolute trust.

Where's you support network or are you really fighting the battle all on your own?I have friends and family, they don't baby my addiction. They out up boundaries when I was deep in it. My desire for their connections aids in my recovery. Lastly how long have you been an addict? . I had my first dose of demerol when I was 12 when I thought I had apoendicitis, but got diagnosed with Crohn's instead...at that point I knew I loved it more than life. My addiction got bad when I was 25 or so...it stayed deep for about 6 years...

I ask the questions because I don't want this thread to paint a picture that all addicts are the same and that no one could use help fighting their addiction and the people around us have no impact.

I simply don't believe that nonsense. If all addicts could just kick a drug all on their own and didn't need positive people in their lives then all these rehab and treatment centers are a joke. The self-help books are a joke and no drug dealer should spend a day in prison. my desire is not to paint a picture that rehab and support aren't great assistants. They are absolutely a necessary aspect of the process. What is faaaaaaar more important tba that however, is ones own participation in that process and acceptance of their responsibility in the situation...AND...to recognize the step of surrendering to the knowledge that u are an addict and should to for a looooooong period of time without being left to your own devices. I am CERTAIN Whitney was aware of these aspects of her disease....she made decisions on her own accord to remain in an environment that wasn't conducive to fight her disease.....Whitney made these decisions...and passed on making others that would have been far more helpful. Before ANYONE else can help U....u have to allow them to. Don't kid yourself....Whitney had PLENTY of opportunities, I am certain of it. I'm not trying to minimize the evils of addiction...it is...evil as evil ever can be. Personal responsibility is grander than addiction is evil though. And I understand the chemical changes and damage done to the brains survival instinct done by drug use, still... And don't get me wrong...I still struggle and forever will. U can conside me an asshole for my unsympathetic view and I wouldn't be offended.

Love u...and I appreciate the questions and I hope I answered them clearly.

You did, thank you. And I don't consider you an asshole nor unsympathetic. I think in fact we are both right. You are right when you say an addict has to be a willing participant in your recovery and I am right when I say one has to be surrounded by those who help you in your recovery and not aid you in your relapse. Addiction, in all its forms, is a tough disease for anyone to accept and deal with. I think Nippy fought the battle as best she could but she lost the war.

HotGritz said:

Musicslave said:

Timmy84 said:

Right, no one knows how hard life of being in the public eye really is. It's a different animal altogether. While I never bought her being "real strong", she wasn't "real weak" either. Stress can wear down on even those who appear to be confident. Fame is a bitch!

Wasn't she going she supposed to sing that Saturday night at Clive's Pre-Grammy Party?

Yeah, allegedly. From hearing her "final performance", her voice was sore as fuck and in no condition to be sung.

Timmy84 said:

Musicslave said:

Wasn't she going she supposed to sing that Saturday night at Clive's Pre-Grammy Party?

Yeah, allegedly. From hearing her "final performance", her voice was sore as fuck and in no condition to be sung.

Thought so. Imagine that pressure to perform before her peers. Many of whom admired her or was influenced by her one way or another. The pressure she put on herself was immense I believe. She barely got through "Yes Jesus Loves Me" with Kelly Price that Friday night before. The drugs she took Saturday might have been merely recreational but I believe she wanted to escape the world and all it's troubles for moment but it ended up a permanent one.

*No, I don't think she committed suicide. I do think as she was having her moment of escapisim (is that a word?) her heart couldn't take it anymore, therefore drowned as a result from it

Musicslave said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah, allegedly. From hearing her "final performance", her voice was sore as fuck and in no condition to be sung.

Thought so. Imagine that pressure to perform before her peers. Many of whom admired her or was influenced by her one way or another. The pressure she put on herself was immense I believe. She barely got through "Yes Jesus Loves Me" with Kelly Price that Friday night before. The drugs she took Saturday might have been merely recreational but I believe she wanted to escape the world and all it's troubles for moment but it ended up a permanent one.

*No, I don't think she committed suicide. I do think as she was having her moment of escapisim (is that a word?) her heart couldn't take it anymore, therefore drowned as a result from it

I initially had thoughts she had committed suicide but I don't believe it now. She definitely wanted to live for that child. It definitely was used for escapism. Unfortunately she escaped permanently from this world.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Houston, 48, was found submerged in a bathtub filled with extremely hot water (93.5 degrees)

Maybe this is not important, but...

NDRU said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Houston, 48, was found submerged in a bathtub filled with extremely hot water (93.5 degrees)

Maybe this is not important, but...

Maybe the water was running?

This whole thing just stinks of some foul shit. I mean face down in a bathtub of hot scalding water some shit ain't right in Houstonville.

nursev said:

This whole thing just stinks of some foul shit. I mean face down in a bathtub of hot scalding water some shit ain't right in Houstonville.

She had a seizure. That can explain it.

Timmy84 said:

nursev said:

This whole thing just stinks of some foul shit. I mean face down in a bathtub of hot scalding water some shit ain't right in Houstonville.

She had a seizure. That can explain it.

Oh I see-I missed that-thanks. Still a terrible way to go

lazycrockett said:

NDRU said:

Maybe this is not important, but...

Maybe the water was running?

still, 93 degrees is not hot water. Maybe they meant Celcius

nevermind, it's not important

[Edited 4/5/12 15:06pm]

I'm not going to totally rule out foul play but....what does water temperature have to do with anything? The coroner initially said "accidental drowning" which means she had to have been submerged long enough to get water in her lungs and if the bath water is too hot, there is no way you will put your whole body in there. Also, she was wrapped in a towel right? Why would someone drown her then take her out of the tub and wrap her in a towel only to lay her face down?

Yall gon make me lose my mind with all this CSI shit.

I liked it better when we were blaming Bobby Brown.

HotGritz said:

I'm not going to totally rule out foul play but....what does water temperature have to do with anything? The coroner initially said "accidental drowning" which means she had to have been submerged long enough to get water in her lungs and if the bath water is too hot, there is no way you will put your whole body in there. Also, she was wrapped in a towel right? Why would someone drown her then take her out of the tub and wrap her in a towel only to lay her face down?

Yall gon make me lose my mind with all this CSI shit.

I liked it better when we were blaming Bobby Brown.

The First 48 Somebody gone tell some shit sooner or later

HotGritz said:

I'm not going to totally rule out foul play but....what does water temperature have to do with anything? The coroner initially said "accidental drowning" which means she had to have been submerged long enough to get water in her lungs and if the bath water is too hot, there is no way you will put your whole body in there. Also, she was wrapped in a towel right? Why would someone drown her then take her out of the tub and wrap her in a towel only to lay her face down?

Yall gon make me lose my mind with all this CSI shit.

I liked it better when we were blaming Bobby Brown.

That's why folks are going nuts right now because they can't blame Whitney's death on Bobby's ass.

nursev said:

Timmy84 said:

She had a seizure. That can explain it.

Oh I see-I missed that-thanks. Still a terrible way to go

Yup.