I was watching Behind The Music today. And didn't know till now he got a lot of heat for playing with an all black jazz band And that the jazz band got heat from the black community for ''selling out to white rock''

I mean why was this such a big deal? this was 1985 and Prince was huge, metal was coming into it's own & R&B was big to. Prince was rockish & hell Stevie was to, and let's not forget Tina. so i don't see why people where so offended by this move on both sides.

Gunsnhalen said:

I was watching Behind The Music today. And didn't know till now he got a lot of heat for playing with an all black jazz band And that the jazz band got heat from the black community for ''selling out to white rock''

I mean why was this such a big deal? this was 1985 and Prince was huge, metal was coming into it's own & R&B was big to. Prince was rockish & hell Stevie was to, and let's not forget Tina. so i don't see why people where so offended by this move on both sides.

Some people in the African American press said that acts like Prince, Michael, Kool & The Gang, Lionel Richie, Billy Ocean, Tina Turner, etc were selling out too. They also made a big fuss about George Michael winning R&B awards. It's like Vainandy always talking about crossover and watering down R&B. There was some of that thinking at during that period. Radio was segregated after the "Disco Sucks" thing. In general, black acts were considered disco by default, so had a harder time getting Top 40 pop airplay. That's part of the reason The Girl Is Mine was the 1st single from Thriller. Paul McCartney was still popular then, and it had a Light Rock/Adult Contemporary sound like other popular acts such as Christopher Cross and Air Supply. Some of the younger blacks started listening to hip hop, rather than the crossover stuff like Luther Vandross. As far as rock goes, black groups that played rock (Living Colour) wouldn't get R&B airplay and didn't get the same amount of spins on AOR stations as white groups.

Gunsnhalen said:

I was watching Behind The Music today. And didn't know till now he got a lot of heat for playing with an all black jazz band And that the jazz band got heat from the black community for ''selling out to white rock''

I mean why was this such a big deal? this was 1985 and Prince was huge, metal was coming into it's own & R&B was big to. Prince was rockish & hell Stevie was to, and let's not forget Tina. so i don't see why people where so offended by this move on both sides.

I haven't seen that episode but I think since he was in The Police which was influenced by punk, reggae and new wave his fans wanted more of that but then his first solo album, The Dream of The Blue Turtles, had all these jazz-inflected pop/rock tracks. As for the band he assembled for that album, they got flack cuz they were dumbing down their sound.

i think Sting fans are a bit like Prince fans. Quite hard to please.

Milty said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I was watching Behind The Music today. And didn't know till now he got a lot of heat for playing with an all black jazz band And that the jazz band got heat from the black community for ''selling out to white rock''

I mean why was this such a big deal? this was 1985 and Prince was huge, metal was coming into it's own & R&B was big to. Prince was rockish & hell Stevie was to, and let's not forget Tina. so i don't see why people where so offended by this move on both sides.

I haven't seen that episode but I think since he was in The Police which was influenced by punk, reggae and new wave his fans wanted more of that but then his first solo album, The Dream of The Blue Turtles, had all these jazz-inflected pop/rock tracks. As for the band he assembled for that album, they got flack cuz they were dumbing down their sound.

i think Sting fans are a bit like Prince fans. Quite hard to please.

But reggae is a very black dominated seen..... so the fact The Police mixed those roots. Not to mention Stewart was taught as a jazz cat! The Police had a lot of black roots in there music and Stewart even said it. So it is stupid Sting fans would get in fits about that/:

But equally dumb the black community gets mad at people like Prince & Tina for ''selling out''

MickyDolenz said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I was watching Behind The Music today. And didn't know till now he got a lot of heat for playing with an all black jazz band And that the jazz band got heat from the black community for ''selling out to white rock''

I mean why was this such a big deal? this was 1985 and Prince was huge, metal was coming into it's own & R&B was big to. Prince was rockish & hell Stevie was to, and let's not forget Tina. so i don't see why people where so offended by this move on both sides.

Some people in the African American press said that acts like Prince, Michael, Kool & The Gang, Lionel Richie, Billy Ocean, Tina Turner, etc were selling out too. They also made a big fuss about George Michael winning R&B awards. It's like Vainandy always talking about crossover and watering down R&B. There was some of that thinking at during that period. Radio was segregated after the "Disco Sucks" thing. In general, black acts were considered disco by default, so had a harder time getting Top 40 pop airplay. That's part of the reason The Girl Is Mine was the 1st single from Thriller. Paul McCartney was still popular then, and it had a Light Rock/Adult Contemporary sound like other popular acts such as Christopher Cross and Air Supply. Some of the younger blacks started listening to hip hop, rather than the crossover stuff like Luther Vandross. As far as rock goes, black groups that played rock (Living Colour) wouldn't get R&B airplay and didn't get the same amount of spins on AOR stations as white groups.

Yeah grouups like Living Colour & Fishbone got kind of backlisted sadly. Luckily LC had a few decent crossover hits.

Gunsnhalen said:

But reggae is a very black dominated seen..... so the fact The Police mixed those roots. Not to mention Stewart was taught as a jazz cat! The Police had a lot of black roots in there music and Stewart even said it. So it is stupid Sting fans would get in fits about that/:

But, many rock fans don't know or care where the music came from. It's like they praise Led Zeppelin, but don't know that some of their songs were copied from blues tunes from guys that played juke joints and chitlin' circuit places and didn't sell many records. The mainstream didn't buy B.B. King records unless it was with U2 or Eric Clapton.

Not a big fan but I think the "establishment" got mad that a rocker decided to do anything with reggae or jazz. They got on Phil Collins for the same thing.

Timmy84 said:

Not a big fan but I think the "establishment" got mad that a rocker decided to do anything with reggae or jazz. They got on Phil Collins for the same thing.

Oh really? i didn't know that. Man they where putting everyone on blast then

MickyDolenz said:

Gunsnhalen said:

But reggae is a very black dominated seen..... so the fact The Police mixed those roots. Not to mention Stewart was taught as a jazz cat! The Police had a lot of black roots in there music and Stewart even said it. So it is stupid Sting fans would get in fits about that/:

But, many rock fans don't know or care where the music came from. It's like they praise Led Zeppelin, but don't know that some of their songs were copied from blues tunes from guys that played juke joints and chitlin' circuit places and didn't sell many records. The mainstream didn't buy B.B. King records unless it was with U2 or Eric Clapton.

I Can see this, to be fair nowaday's it is more known. But when the groups where getting popular probably now.

The Stones copied some blues tunes as well

^Most of the uk groups coming out of the late 50's to mid 60's were all in love with american r&b. They embraced that sound.

If we are talking bout that Turtle disc, I think it was such a departure of what the police was and what Sting was that the media and the fans just piled whatever they could on it cause they didn't get what they were expecting from a solo Sting debut. Russians was the first single and its a downer of a pop song wonderfully crafted and smartly written but it wasnt what the fans wanted.

Though honestly this is the first I've ever heard of criticism bout him having an all black jazz ensemble.

My bad the first single was set them free.

[Edited 3/11/12 23:31pm]

lazycrockett said:

^Most of the uk groups coming out of the late 50's to mid 60's were all in love with american r&b. They embraced that sound.

If we are talking bout that Turtle disc, I think it was such a departure of what the police was and what Sting was that the media and the fans just piled whatever they could on it cause they didn't get what they were expecting from a solo Sting debut. Russians was the first single and its a downer of a pop song wonderfully crafted and smartly written but it wasnt what the fans wanted.

Though honestly this is the first I've ever heard of criticism bout him having an all black jazz ensemble.

There was some criticism... not real big. Only some tried to raise a stink but of course it fell on deaf ears.

lazycrockett said:

^Most of the uk groups coming out of the late 50's to mid 60's were all in love with american r&b. They embraced that sound.

If we are talking bout that Turtle disc, I think it was such a departure of what the police was and what Sting was that the media and the fans just piled whatever they could on it cause they didn't get what they were expecting from a solo Sting debut. Russians was the first single and its a downer of a pop song wonderfully crafted and smartly written but it wasnt what the fans wanted.

Though honestly this is the first I've ever heard of criticism bout him having an all black jazz ensemble.

Starts around the 6:00 mark about the turtle disc.

^Im not going to call anyone out, but it just seems this is more just "make a fuss" more than really bout anyone being up in arms. Just seems like good "that will make good copy" than a real stir going on at the time.

The music BUSINESS segragated it more than any dynamics in the populace. The stratification induced by music moguls played a major factor in crippling music which was allowed to be heard by us "peons."

...

unfortunately, there's always those people (Critics and fans) with a very narrow view of music, who think that if you're as Jazz artist, you're only supposed to play certain things, and if you're a pop artist, you should stay within that realm...they think the Jazz artists are selling out, or they think the pop artists are trying to pose as something that they're not.......

....

paligap said:

...

unfortunately, there's always those people (Critics and fans) with a very narrow view of music, who think that if you're as Jazz artist, you're only supposed to play certain things, and if you're a pop artist, you should stay within that realm...they think the Jazz artists are selling out, or they think the pop artists are trying to pose as something that they're not.......

....

Yeah. In the '70s, jazz purists used to get real pissed off when a jazz musician worked with a pop artist (Aretha, Chaka, Stevie, etc.) It was like "you're not supposed to do work with them." WTF? A talented black artist can't work with another talented black artist? Just like when gospel purists got mad that a gospel group collaborated with a pop/R&B artist (The Winans and Anita Baker ring a bell? lol). People are funny about what musicians are supposed to play, just like Funkadelic once pointed out: "who says a funk band can't play rock?"

Timmy84 said:

paligap said:

...

unfortunately, there's always those people (Critics and fans) with a very narrow view of music, who think that if you're as Jazz artist, you're only supposed to play certain things, and if you're a pop artist, you should stay within that realm...they think the Jazz artists are selling out, or they think the pop artists are trying to pose as something that they're not.......

....

Yeah. In the '70s, jazz purists used to get real pissed off when a jazz musician worked with a pop artist (Aretha, Chaka, Stevie, etc.) It was like "you're not supposed to do work with them." WTF? A talented black artist can't work with another talented black artist? Just like when gospel purists got mad that a gospel group collaborated with a pop/R&B artist (The Winans and Anita Baker ring a bell? lol). People are funny about what musicians are supposed to play, just like Funkadelic once pointed out: "who says a funk band can't play rock?"

Yup!

There's this one Jazz critic, Stanley Crouch, who still insists that Miles Davis "sold out " when he made "Bitches' Brew". He still thinks that Miles did it to sell records.

C'mon --if you don't like it, that's one thing----- But if Miles really had wanted to sell out, there's far more accessible and commercial music he could have done --instead of the swampy, murky open funk of Bitches Brew--does Crouch really think that was commercial?

....

[Edited 3/12/12 11:10am]

paligap said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah. In the '70s, jazz purists used to get real pissed off when a jazz musician worked with a pop artist (Aretha, Chaka, Stevie, etc.) It was like "you're not supposed to do work with them." WTF? A talented black artist can't work with another talented black artist? Just like when gospel purists got mad that a gospel group collaborated with a pop/R&B artist (The Winans and Anita Baker ring a bell? lol). People are funny about what musicians are supposed to play, just like Funkadelic once pointed out: "who says a funk band can't play rock?"

Yup!

There's this one Jazz critic, Stanley Crouch, who still insists that Miles Davis "sold out " when he made "Bitches' Brew". He still thinks that Miles did it to sell records.

C'mon --if you don't like it, that's one thing----- But if Miles really had wanted to sell out, there's far more accessible and commercial music he could have done --instead of the swampy, murky open funk of Bitches Brew--does Crouch really think that was commercial?

....

[Edited 3/12/12 11:10am]

When it comes to music, it's usually those who make themselves out to be intellectual "know-it-alls" that turn out to be the real dummies.

I don't recall it being any sort of controversy, except probably to the musicians involved. Branford Marsalis probably was accused of going for a paycheck, but he was, and why shouldn't he?

But as for mainstream perception, the album was a huge hit, and nobody I know was talking about it in the slightest, except for the fact that the Police had broken up.

But I remember watching the movie Bring on the Night, and they were all talking about this, and the huge risk they were all taking. I was thinking, "It's Sting's first solo album, filled with great pop songs, what is the risk?" LOL

NDRU said:

But I remember watching the movie Bring on the Night, and they were all talking about this, and the huge risk they were all taking. I was thinking, "It's Sting's first solo album, filled with great pop songs, what is the risk?" LOL

It's funny how things can work out. Because I did hear how "risky" it was, when it never seemed that way but some folks felt some type of way about it...

Reading pali's quote, I've had this thought about Stanley Crouch's concern over Miles BB, what the hell, that is a commercial as jalapeño applesauce. There's a simple way to test that out, if anbody still has a " booming system " in their Impala. Play ANY track from BB while rolling down Florence and Normandie, nnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooobbbbbbbboooooddy would know what the fuck you're playing. Switch it up and play Flashlight or More Bounce and everybody would be smiling. That's why snobbery fucks things up when its not neccessary, that what this stems from. As it relates to Sting, working with Branford got them both recognition that may never happened were it Wynford instead.

[Edited 3/12/12 12:30pm]

UncleGrandpa said:

Reading pali's quote, I've had this thought about Stanley Crouch's concern over Miles BB, what the hell, that is a commercial as jalapeño applesauce. There's a simple way to test that out, if anbody still has a " booming system " in their Impala. Play ANY track from BB while rolling down Florence and Normandie, nnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooobbbbbbbboooooddy would know what the fuck you're playing. Switch it up and play Flashlight or More Bounce and everybody would be smiling. That's why snobbery fucks things up when its not neccessary, that what this stems from. As it relates to Sting, working with Branford got them both recognition that may never happened were it Wynford instead.

[Edited 3/12/12 12:30pm]

Exactly...

Timmy84 said:

NDRU said:

But I remember watching the movie Bring on the Night, and they were all talking about this, and the huge risk they were all taking. I was thinking, "It's Sting's first solo album, filled with great pop songs, what is the risk?" LOL

It's funny how things can work out. Because I did hear how "risky" it was, when it never seemed that way but some folks felt some type of way about it...

I think there may be a bit of playing it up in the "official" history of the album. It always helps if an artist is perceived as taking chances. But Sting was so popular at that point, he almost couldn't have failed no matter what he did.

NDRU said:

Timmy84 said:

It's funny how things can work out. Because I did hear how "risky" it was, when it never seemed that way but some folks felt some type of way about it...

I think there may be a bit of playing it up in the "official" history of the album. It always helps if an artist is perceived as taking chances. But Sting was so popular at that point, he almost couldn't have failed no matter what he did.

It might've been a bigger controversy over the jazz side of things if that was the case but we know how people write someone's history...

Just cause I'm in the mood and this thread piqued my curiosity, I'm going to buy Blue Turtles and NLTS, twenty plus years after.

UncleGrandpa said:

Just cause I'm in the mood and this thread piqued my curiosity, I'm going to buy Blue Turtles and NLTS, twenty plus years after.

You're in for a treat especially with NLTS. The production on that album is peerless.

UncleGrandpa said:

Just cause I'm in the mood and this thread piqued my curiosity, I'm going to buy Blue Turtles and NLTS, twenty plus years after.

There both great albums! Sting is a really good songwriter imo.

And the jazz/rock/blues aspect of the albums are great. There probbaly the best Sting albums, his 90's work ranges from good to boring zzzz.

Brand New Day, i mean props to him for having a top 20 hit in 1999, i'm sure many not even him thought he would making hits for so long. But that song annoys me

Sting could have stopped after NLTS and I'd always have been a happy camper. I love that disc.

lazycrockett said:

Sting could have stopped after NLTS and I'd always have been a happy camper. I love that disc.

Nothing Like The Sun is one of my favorite albums of the 80's --and IMO, Sting's best solo album...

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