brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah except for, I believe, Smokey, Stevie (post-1971) and Rick (I think, but I don't know...)...

I think he might have gotten Rick's publishing too, tho maybe not all of it. That said, I think Rick got performance and producing $$$ for most things. Rick was keeping Motown afloat for a time there and seemed to do most of the hot producing, so I bet he maybe some extra.

The thing w/ DeBarge is that I think they got nuthin'...maybe El gets a bit for his solo era and performance, but I don't think they siblings or Bobby's estate gets anything for writing/producing/performance. If so, that's shameful.

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

Damn. I'd rather him stay out of the limelight to get straight than to struggle through concerts like that.

Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

The thing w/ DeBarge is that I think they got nuthin'...maybe El gets a bit for his solo era and performance, but I don't think they siblings or Bobby's estate gets anything for writing/producing/performance. If so, that's shameful.

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

I think El might get a tiny bit from his Warner time..right?

The other brothers should at least get something for performace on the Motown LPs, IIRC. They were the musicians as well as the voices. In short, all of them should be getting something even if it's small. Making matters worse, they've been extensively sampled on very successful records. This reminds me of what it was like in the early days of sampling...everybody but the sampled artist got $$$$$.

I really hope El or somebody can look into this cuz it ain't right.

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

I think El might get a tiny bit from his Warner time..right?

The other brothers should at least get something for performace on the Motown LPs, IIRC. They were the musicians as well as the voices. In short, all of them should be getting something even if it's small. Making matters worse, they've been extensively sampled on very successful records. This reminds me of what it was like in the early days of sampling...everybody but the sampled artist got $$$$$.

I really hope El or somebody can look into this cuz it ain't right.

Yeah James Brown and George Clinton are the most sampled artists of all time but they randomly get a check. George gets royalties daily from "Atomic Dog" and probably some as a songwriter but not all that he should be getting. James got the same thing, he had to demand the artists to get him a cut of royalties. I'm surprised the DeBarges never sued for royalty cuts...

missfee said:

Damn. I'd rather him stay out of the limelight to get straight than to struggle through concerts like that.

I hope and pray El can get it together.

Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

I think El might get a tiny bit from his Warner time..right?

The other brothers should at least get something for performace on the Motown LPs, IIRC. They were the musicians as well as the voices. In short, all of them should be getting something even if it's small. Making matters worse, they've been extensively sampled on very successful records. This reminds me of what it was like in the early days of sampling...everybody but the sampled artist got $$$$$.

I really hope El or somebody can look into this cuz it ain't right.

Yeah James Brown and George Clinton are the most sampled artists of all time but they randomly get a check. George gets royalties daily from "Atomic Dog" and probably some as a songwriter but not all that he should be getting. James got the same thing, he had to demand the artists to get him a cut of royalties. I'm surprised the DeBarges never sued for royalty cuts...

That def takes some serious bread to get the ball rolling, see Pete Townshend. I doubt they had enough to really start a case good and that kind of thing can drain what you do have. Look at the Sylvers clan for a prime example.

I think that the DeBarges have taken a rather unqiue and positive approach to how their music has been distributed on the net and/or via samples. Unlike other artists that seem to resent this, they seem to welcome it. It spreads their music and fanbase. In some ways it's shows they have really remained humble and aren't at war w/ the fans. This has benefitted them when they DO put something out...say Chico or El (music) and MamaD and Bunny (books). The one thing they have going for them is a surpringly large amount of public good will. They never got the big head and were always good to their fans.

Maybe some entertainment lawyer who likes DeBarge will offer to help them?! Seriously...people seem to like El in particular, so maybe someone will give them a hook up.

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah James Brown and George Clinton are the most sampled artists of all time but they randomly get a check. George gets royalties daily from "Atomic Dog" and probably some as a songwriter but not all that he should be getting. James got the same thing, he had to demand the artists to get him a cut of royalties. I'm surprised the DeBarges never sued for royalty cuts...

That def takes some serious bread to get the ball rolling, see Pete Townshend. I doubt they had enough to really start a case good and that kind of thing can drain what you do have. Look at the Sylvers clan for a prime example.

I think that the DeBarges have taken a rather unqiue and positive approach to how their music has been distributed on the net and/or via samples. Unlike other artists that seem to resent this, they seem to welcome it. It spreads their music and fanbase. In some ways it's shows they have really remained humble and aren't at war w/ the fans. This has benefitted them when they DO put something out...say Chico or El (music) and MamaD and Bunny (books). The one thing they have going for them is a surpringly large amount of public good will. They never got the big head and were always good to their fans.

Maybe some entertainment lawyer who likes DeBarge will offer to help them?! Seriously...people seem to like El in particular, so maybe someone will give them a hook up.

Good points.

MadamGoodnight said:

missfee said:

Damn. I'd rather him stay out of the limelight to get straight than to struggle through concerts like that.

I hope and pray El can get it together.

For real because I really don't want to wake up one day and see yet another headline of a fallen star who has passed on.

missfee said:

MadamGoodnight said:

I hope and pray El can get it together.

For real because I really don't want to wake up one day and see yet another headline of a fallen star who has passed on.

I feel ya MissFee, but I think El will do alright because he really seems to want to. Many times when people go over the edge, it's because they feel outside pressures to get clean that they reject. You gotta do it for yourself primarily, as selfish as that sounds. Even tho he's struggling, I think he really wants it.

I'm quietly hopeful for him even thru these rather painful setbacks.

Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

I think he might have gotten Rick's publishing too, tho maybe not all of it. That said, I think Rick got performance and producing $$$ for most things. Rick was keeping Motown afloat for a time there and seemed to do most of the hot producing, so I bet he maybe some extra.

The thing w/ DeBarge is that I think they got nuthin'...maybe El gets a bit for his solo era and performance, but I don't think they siblings or Bobby's estate gets anything for writing/producing/performance. If so, that's shameful.

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

Just a professional and personal opinion, exclusive contracts are ripe for nefarious behavior. Isn't it ironic that nintey-seven percent of the time these types of contracts benefit the company and/or corporation and not the signatory?

I don't know what El/DeBarge's signed away but signing the rights of your music publishing wasn't all that uncommon in the record industry. Even so, when you sign a music publishing contract the publisher pays the songwriter a portion of the royalties over the life of the copyright. If my memory serves me correctly El said in an interview that he had been living off the royalties of the music sampling. Everytime El's songs are played or sampled he and Bunny were paid. If they had known better I"m sure they would've taken measures to start their own publishing company. At best they would've been wise to sign with a music publishing company independent of Motown.

TD3 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

Just a professional and personal opinion, exclusive contracts are ripe for nefarious behavior. Isn't it ironic that nintey-seven percent of the time these types of contracts benefit the company and/or corporation and not the signatory?

I don't know what El/DeBarge's signed away but signing the rights of your music publishing wasn't all that uncommon in the record industry. Even so, when you sign a music publishing contract the publisher pays the songwriter a portion of the royalties over the life of the copyright. If my memory serves me correctly El said in an interview that he had been living off the royalties of the music sampling. Everytime El's songs are played or sampled he and Bunny were paid. If they had known better I"m sure they would've taken measures to start their own publishing company. At best they would've been wise to sign with a music publishing company independent of Motown.

I'm not sure someone could have signed w/ Motown and avoided JoBeTe. Stevie was probably Motowns's only true P and D deal.

brooksie said:

TD3 said:

Just a professional and personal opinion, exclusive contracts are ripe for nefarious behavior. Isn't it ironic that nintey-seven percent of the time these types of contracts benefit the company and/or corporation and not the signatory?

I don't know what El/DeBarge's signed away but signing the rights of your music publishing wasn't all that uncommon in the record industry. Even so, when you sign a music publishing contract the publisher pays the songwriter a portion of the royalties over the life of the copyright. If my memory serves me correctly El said in an interview that he had been living off the royalties of the music sampling. Everytime El's songs are played or sampled he and Bunny were paid. If they had known better I"m sure they would've taken measures to start their own publishing company. At best they would've been wise to sign with a music publishing company independent of Motown.

I'm not sure someone could have signed w/ Motown and avoided JoBeTe. Stevie was probably Motowns's only true P and D deal.

Marvin up until 1977 had his works published under Jobete. After 1977, he started separating himself from Motown and formed Bugpie Music (which was a mixture of the nicknames he gave his son and daughter; actually Buggie, or Bubbie, was Frankie's name and Pie was Nona). So I think his estate owns music he recorded for that publishing company including what he wrote and recorded post-Motown but everything else that he wrote is still owned by EMI.

TD3 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah and El produced or co-produced all their Motown albums. Bunny wrote most of the lyrics, El did the rest and some of the others chipped in but I think of all of them, El and Bunny got mostly screwed especially after the samples of their work generated so much money.

Just a professional and personal opinion, exclusive contracts are ripe for nefarious behavior. Isn't it ironic that nintey-seven percent of the time these types of contracts benefit the company and/or corporation and not the signatory?

I don't know what El/DeBarge's signed away but signing the rights of your music publishing wasn't all that uncommon in the record industry. Even so, when you sign a music publishing contract the publisher pays the songwriter a portion of the royalties over the life of the copyright. If my memory serves me correctly El said in an interview that he had been living off the royalties of the music sampling. Everytime El's songs are played or sampled he and Bunny were paid. If they had known better I"m sure they would've taken measures to start their own publishing company. At best they would've been wise to sign with a music publishing company independent of Motown.

Yeah the DeBarge compositions were published in Jobete... so it explains why the money only went to Berry Gordy and his family instead of the DeBarges.

Timmy84 said

Yeah the DeBarge compositions were published in Jobete... so it explains why the money only went to Berry Gordy and his family instead of the DeBarges.

This is what confuses me. If El says he and Bunny (tho I'll wait for her confirm to believe it) got paid for the sampling that means JoBeTe stumped up a little, but if that's the case ALL of them should have gotten the performance royalty. :confused:

brooksie said:

Timmy84 said

Yeah the DeBarge compositions were published in Jobete... so it explains why the money only went to Berry Gordy and his family instead of the DeBarges.

This is what confuses me. If El says he and Bunny (tho I'll wait for her confirm to believe it) got paid for the sampling that means JoBeTe stumped up a little, but if that's the case ALL of them should have gotten the performance royalty. :confused:

I don't know what to believe... Mama D said the DeBarges don't get royalties and El says they do... I'm guessing El still gets a cut from the sampling... But maybe she meant they don't get a lot of money because they don't own the music. I'm sure El and Bunny probably do get paid off of samples and plays of their records (Randy probably gets a royalty cut for "I Like It" for example and Mark gets a cut every time "Stay With Me" is sampled; James don't get paid except for performance royalties).

Timmy84 said:

brooksie said:

This is what confuses me. If El says he and Bunny (tho I'll wait for her confirm to believe it) got paid for the sampling that means JoBeTe stumped up a little, but if that's the case ALL of them should have gotten the performance royalty. :confused:

I don't know what to believe... Mama D said the DeBarges don't get royalties and El says they do... I'm guessing El still gets a cut from the sampling... But maybe she meant they don't get a lot of money because they don't own the music. I'm sure El and Bunny probably do get paid off of samples and plays of their records (Randy probably gets a royalty cut for "I Like It" for example and Mark gets a cut every time "Stay With Me" is sampled; James don't get paid except for performance royalties).

In a nutshell, a music publisher owns or administers copyrights in songs, and licenses them to companies and other entities that use music, such as record labels, radio stations, filmmakers, and advertisers. The publisher then collects the license fee, keeps a cut, and pays the rest to the songwriters or their heirs. The "standard" or minimum cut is 50%, the thing is the artist is still dependent on their publisher to be honest on the fees they've collected.

These types of contracts are invovled and any minor oversight can cost a musician/songwriter and yes, even their publisher hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in royalties. The fact El was tide to Motown publishing, who knows what they did or if El has been ripped off. More than that, I want to make sure everyone understood what music publishers do because when one says an artist signed his publishing rights away it doesn't mean they've signed their copyrights away. An artist catalogue is only worth as much as the market dictates, needless to say the DeBarge catalogue has had legs. Maybe Etterlene DeBarge was speaking about the money her children missed out on if they had owned their publishing rights.

Here's one of the interviews. If you don't want to read the whole interview, start reading after the two highlighted words in Red in the story.

http://allhiphop.com/2007...y-with-me/

TD3 said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know what to believe... Mama D said the DeBarges don't get royalties and El says they do... I'm guessing El still gets a cut from the sampling... But maybe she meant they don't get a lot of money because they don't own the music. I'm sure El and Bunny probably do get paid off of samples and plays of their records (Randy probably gets a royalty cut for "I Like It" for example and Mark gets a cut every time "Stay With Me" is sampled; James don't get paid except for performance royalties).

In a nutshell, a music publisher owns or administers copyrights in songs, and licenses them to companies and other entities that use music, such as record labels, radio stations, filmmakers, and advertisers. The publisher then collects the license fee, keeps a cut, and pays the rest to the songwriters or their heirs. The "standard" or minimum cut is 50%, the thing is the artist is still dependent on their publisher to be honest on the fees they've collected.

These types of contracts are invovled and any minor oversight can cost a musician/songwriter and yes, even their publisher hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in royalties. The fact El was tide to Motown publishing, who knows what they did or if El has been ripped off. More than that, I want to make sure everyone understood what music publishers do because when one says an artist signed his publishing rights away it doesn't mean they've signed their copyrights away. An artist catalogue is only worth as much as the market dictates, needless to say the DeBarge catalogue has had legs. Maybe Etterlene DeBarge was speaking about the money her children missed out on if they had owned their publishing rights.

Here's one of the interviews. If you don't want to read the whole interview, start reading after the two highlighted words in Red in the story.

http://allhiphop.com/2007...y-with-me/

Makes sense now. So they get paid as songwriters (and probably get gold/platinum records for being featured so that adds more money)...

Timmy84 said:

TD3 said:

In a nutshell, a music publisher owns or administers copyrights in songs, and licenses them to companies and other entities that use music, such as record labels, radio stations, filmmakers, and advertisers. The publisher then collects the license fee, keeps a cut, and pays the rest to the songwriters or their heirs. The "standard" or minimum cut is 50%, the thing is the artist is still dependent on their publisher to be honest on the fees they've collected.

These types of contracts are invovled and any minor oversight can cost a musician/songwriter and yes, even their publisher hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in royalties. The fact El was tide to Motown publishing, who knows what they did or if El has been ripped off. More than that, I want to make sure everyone understood what music publishers do because when one says an artist signed his publishing rights away it doesn't mean they've signed their copyrights away. An artist catalogue is only worth as much as the market dictates, needless to say the DeBarge catalogue has had legs. Maybe Etterlene DeBarge was speaking about the money her children missed out on if they had owned their publishing rights.

Here's one of the interviews. If you don't want to read the whole interview, start reading after the two highlighted words in Red in the story.

http://allhiphop.com/2007...y-with-me/

Makes sense now. So they get paid as songwriters (and probably get gold/platinum records for being featured so that adds more money)...

Correct.

He doesn't seem so off, he stated he has a cold. His set are always the same,

confused,a key board, group of people standing in the back of the stage.

He had a break down on the stage after mentioning Whitney.

People have to remember that Whitney embraced El giving him the

biggest hug just less than 48 hours of her passing. He's stll grieving.

Just hope the people surrounding him give him proper

things he needs to cope.

RosesRred said:

He doesn't seem so off, he stated he has a cold. His set are always the same,

confused,a key board, group of people standing in the back of the stage.

He had a break down on the stage after mentioning Whitney.

People have to remember that Whitney embraced El giving him the

biggest hug just less than 48 hours of her passing. He's stll grieving.

Just hope the people surrounding him give him proper

things he needs to cope.

That sounds more appropriate than what the reviews said.

Timmy84 said:

RosesRred said:

He doesn't seem so off, he stated he has a cold. His set are always the same,

confused,a key board, group of people standing in the back of the stage.

He had a break down on the stage after mentioning Whitney.

People have to remember that Whitney embraced El giving him the

biggest hug just less than 48 hours of her passing. He's stll grieving.

Just hope the people surrounding him give him proper

things he needs to cope.

That sounds more appropriate than what the reviews said.

agree

RosesRred said:

He doesn't seem so off, he stated he has a cold. His set are always the same,

confused,a key board, group of people standing in the back of the stage.

He had a break down on the stage after mentioning Whitney.

People have to remember that Whitney embraced El giving him the

biggest hug just less than 48 hours of her passing. He's stll grieving.

Just hope the people surrounding him give him proper

things he needs to cope.

Thanks for posting the vids BTW, I'll watch later.

The original review said nothing about Whitney, but this makes total sense. I'd hoped someone who went (and paid to go) would give us the 411.