Not in the least bit overrated. It's achingly beautiful.

Timmy84 said:

Sandino said:

Because the OP asked what's the best SOUL album ever. You can include funk under the umbrella of soul, and Riot has both ALOT of Soul and ALOT of funk and hell, ALOT of blues.

Uh no... they're two different albums and they do not, I repeat, do NOT compare.

...Why do they not compare Timmy?

Timmy84 said:

Sandino said:

Na Tim I certainly disagree. Signed, Sealed' has production that is slightly different anything Whitfield, Gordy, HDH or anyone else had done prior; StaxVolt has a more pronounced influence on this album than what Cookie-cutter Motown permitted. The uptempo tracks are far more syncopated, the rhythm section practically revolves around the back beat, unlike Motown which typically played simple 2 & 4 on their singles (Gaye's Ain't No mountain High) and the clavinet here is more funkier than anything Stevie had done with the exception of maybe "you met your match". On We Can Work it out U can hear the archetypal stevie song. Insistent drumming, half open hi-hat. layered vocal accompaniment showcasing his octave range, single-note crunched clav riffs between open intervals, etc etc.

I don't deny Marvin was influential, I just deny that Marvin had as direct and immediate an impact on Stevie's work as what MusicMan seems to be claiming. Stevie didn't have any one influence that pervasive in his work.

And I disagree with you as well. Notice the difference between the sound in SSD and WICF and MIMM... sure it was a gradual development but Stevie still didn't feel in so much control on SSD as he would in WICF. Berry Gordy was pissed with Stevie when he did WICF and even more pissed when he wouldn't sign the slave contract. With SSD, it was a compromise but Stevie after seeing what Marvin did didn't want no more compromises. You can say he did it all on his own but don't think Stevie didn't have any help...

You almost ignored every point I made. this is what I said:

Your Points: Berry Gordy still didn't trust many of his artists doing their own writing. And Stevie WAS motivated by Marvin after "What's Going On", the single came out. In fact, some of the songs on "Where I'm Coming From" that had a socially conscious concept (Look Around, I Wanna Talk to You, Do Yourself a Favor) seemed to take bits from Marvin and Sly. Other songs had a more Beatles favor or Hitsville sound (Take Up a Course in Happiness). Plus Syreeta Wright was the lyrical writer for Where I'm Coming From.

1.Signed Sealed Delivered was in stark contrast to any previous Motown album. It featured a more pronounced rhythm section similar to that of Booker T & the MG's.

2. Stevie wonder co-wrote half the album, co-produced the album(something most Motown acts aside from he and Gaye either didn't have the talent to do or didn't receive the privilege).

3. Marvin was an influence on Stevie's work. As was The beatles. As was Sly Stone. As was Jackie Wilson, James Brown, Burt Bacharach, Clarence Paul, Don Hunter, Hank Cosby, Benny Benjamin, Bach, Brahms, etc etc. See where I'm going with this? like Prince, the whole equals more than the sum of its parts, unlike prince I think, Stevie never outright "aped" somebody's sound.

kitbradley said:

I just ordered it last night. I've never heard the whole album before. I recently began delving more into Marvin's music. I really love his voice, but, I have to admit, I haven't been overly-enthused about his work. I really love the song "Let's Get In On" but I'm waiting to hear something from him that's going to move me, that will touch my soul. Haven't quite found it yet.

'What's Going On' should do just that.

No.

CLASSIC Masterpiece

Sandino said:

I was hoping you'd offer an argument that actually details in which songs and albums specifically can you see Gaye's imprint on Stevie's work? You point out he wanted to make more socially relevant songs. Ok. So did Sly stone (Everday People, Don't Call me nigger whitey, Stand-Pre What's Going On). So did Curtis Mayfield. (Curtis Album via 1970-pre What's Going On), hell, even The Temptations did(Ball of Confusion 70'), Stevie too(Heaven help us All). So what you talking bout willis?

It seems like you're on here trying to make an argument for the sake of arguing. I didn't recall saying Stevie Wonder was aping Marvin Gaye's music, just that Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" gave a lot of artists the creative license and credibility (including Stevie Wonder) to move beyond the typical rote R&B formula of the time. At least, that is what I have read and heard other recording artists mention over the past 25-plus years as a music critic when they cite "What's Going On" in their musical development. That's in addition to the recording techniques and the song cycle concept employed by artists esentially after "What's Going On."

But in any case, the primary question has been answered on whether "What's Going On" was overrated.

[Edited 2/15/12 20:48pm]

Yeah it's after all a personal opinion if you think someone else's album was better because they ask folks if the WGO album was overrated. I guess most people don't think the album's overrated so that's that.

Very overrated.

MusickMan said:

Sandino said:

I was hoping you'd offer an argument that actually details in which songs and albums specifically can you see Gaye's imprint on Stevie's work? You point out he wanted to make more socially relevant songs. Ok. So did Sly stone (Everday People, Don't Call me nigger whitey, Stand-Pre What's Going On). So did Curtis Mayfield. (Curtis Album via 1970-pre What's Going On), hell, even The Temptations did(Ball of Confusion 70'), Stevie too(Heaven help us All). So what you talking bout willis?

It seems like you're on here trying to make an argument for the sake of arguing. I didn't recall saying Stevie Wonder was aping Marvin Gaye's music, just that Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" gave a lot of artists the creative license and credibility (including Stevie Wonder) to move beyond the typical rote R&B formula of the time. At least, that is what I have read and heard other recording artists mention over the years as a music critic when they cite "What's Going On" in their musical development.

[Edited 2/15/12 20:32pm]

Firstly, you're the one who replied to me initially, remember?

You Said:

As great as Stevie Wonder's '70s albums were, they were more or less the byproduct and extension of what "What's Going On" accomplished. Not only musically, but Gaye's ability to gain creative control of his music is what motivated Wonder to be more experimental with his music (and his negotiating with Motown). Personally, "Innervisions" would be the one album I would put on the same plane as "What's Going On."

Secondly, I'm uncertain if you recall the proposition behind our argument so here's a summary:

You: Stevie Wonder's music in the 70's were the Byproduct of Marvin Gaye's Opus'.

Me: No they weren't, how'd you come to that conclusion?

You:w/o Marvin Gaye fighting for artistic license & making socially relevant songs Stevie Wonder wouldn't have gone on to do what he did

Me: False. Stevie had leveraged his contract termination to where he had creative license for WICF, a project he began whilst Gaye began his almost simultaneously, and he needn't have 'gotten' anything from Gaye insofar as socially-themed music because Others(Curtis Mayfield, Sly Stone, Temptations, Himself) IN THAT GENRE were already producing social commentary.

You:.......you seem to be arguing about nothing

Me: O_o *Nonplussed*

Lastly,

At least, that is what I have read and heard other recording artists mention over the years as a music critic when they cite "What's Going On" in their musical development.

Thank you! Finally that's really all you needed to say, forget pretense. If you had just said 'well most people say What's Goin On is pretty important, and I tend to agree with people who seem to know what they're talking about' I could completely understand that, and have absolutely no problem with that position. But framing your argument in the perspective of 'Yes What's Going On directly contributed to Stevie Wonder's 1970's work harmonically/rhythmically/melodically or otherwise' is what I have a problem with because it is the burden on the person who claims this to prove it.

[Edited 2/15/12 20:55pm]

Sandino said:

MusickMan said:

Firstly, you're the one who replied to me initially, remember?

You Said:

As great as Stevie Wonder's '70s albums were, they were more or less the byproduct and extension of what "What's Going On" accomplished. Not only musically, but Gaye's ability to gain creative control of his music is what motivated Wonder to be more experimental with his music (and his negotiating with Motown). Personally, "Innervisions" would be the one album I would put on the same plane as "What's Going On."

And like I said, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't recall my statement actually "calling you out" or "correcting you," but the bottom line is when Stevie Wonder made "Where I'm Coming From" he still did not have total musical control over his career. Hence, the reason he broke his contract and Motown only accepted the album because it was the last album under his initial deal.

In any event, I believe you and I agreed that "What's Going On" was not a slightly overrated album. Do you have anything else to say?

[Edited 2/15/12 21:00pm]

Sandino said:

But framing your argument in the perspective of 'Yes What's Going On directly contributed to Stevie Wonder's 1970's work harmonically/rhythmically/melodically or otherwise' is what I have a problem with because it is the burden on the person who claims this to prove it.

Interesting, because I never said anything like this.

Do you have anything else to say?

[Edited 2/15/12 21:00pm]

ummm....no?

It's widley regarded as one of the greatest albums ever recorded....and you know what...I think it is.

So.......NOOOOOOOO!!!!

MusickMan said:

Sandino said:

And like I said, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't recall my statement actually "calling you out" or "correcting you," but the bottom line is when Stevie Wonder made "Where I'm Coming From" he still did not have total musical control over his career. Hence, the reason he broke his contract and Motown only accepted the album because it was the last album under his initial deal.

In any event, I believe you and I agreed that "What's Going On" was not a slightly overrated album. Do you have anything else to say?

[Edited 2/15/12 20:57pm]

Yes final point(s):

1) You seem mistaken. I'm not perceiving anything that you said as an ad-hominem attack.

2) Your argument confused because it seems like a non-sequitur. Without further conviction I'll continue to view it as such.

Interesting I never said anything like this

3) That's why it's not a 'quote' like "this".

[Edited 2/15/12 21:05pm]

[Edited 2/15/12 21:05pm]

There is no non sequitur, just someone arguing non-points incessantly about something unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Not to mention to the point where he or she cannot end it without having the last word.

So unless you have something relevant to the topic at hand, I don't see a need for the encylopedic review of Stevie Wonder's early '70s, pre-golden age period as if I was not familiar with it.

[Edited 2/15/12 21:24pm]

MusickMan said:

There is no non sequitur, just someone arguing non-points incessantly about something unnecessarily irrelevant to the topic at hand. Not to mention to the point where he or she cannot end it without having the last word.

So unless you have something relevant to the topic at hand, I don't see a need for the encylopedic review of Stevie Wonder's early '70s, pre-golden age period as if I was not familiar with it.

[Edited 2/15/12 21:20pm]

I wonder if you see the irony in what you just wrote.

You wanna know what album is overrated?

Superfly.

novabrkr said:

You wanna know what album is overrated?

Superfly.

Are you kidding? I guess you had to have at least been alive in the early 70's to understand the relevancy of all of that innovative music.

As for 'What's Going On' It was important on so many levels. Marvin was writing about universal themes. Things that were important to everyone. War, ecology, life in the inner city, God and the impotance of taking care of our children. No one covered so much ground in one record before Marvin. And he did it in ten days. It went against everything that Berry Gordy's Motown stood for. He wanted Marvin to churn out more songs about love and Marvin wanted to speak about what he saw happening around him. After his brother came home from Vietnam, he was inspired.

It's also where he made a wall of sound with his own voice. Layers of beautiful harmonies backing himself up. Something that Prince and D'angelo learned very well!

I'm actually reading this book as I write this and it breaks down the importance of this record better than anything else I've seen in print. It's not my favorite book written about Marvin, but it is relevant to this topic and an interesting look at Marvin Gaye's life.

http://www.amazon.com/Mer...046501769X

sunlite said:

novabrkr said:

You wanna know what album is overrated?

Superfly.

Are you kidding? I guess you had to have at least been alive in the early 70's to understand the relevancy of all of that innovative music.

I'm not kidding. Curtis has many albums that kick it in the nuts and nobody in the mainstream press ever talks about those albums.

novabrkr said:

sunlite said:

Are you kidding? I guess you had to have at least been alive in the early 70's to understand the relevancy of all of that innovative music.

I'm not kidding. Curtis has many albums that kick it in the nuts and nobody in the mainstream press ever talks about those albums.

It's kinda sad how a lot of Curtis' albums get overlooked. That being said something about the material in Superfly is justified but Curtis' first two solo albums outperform it. It's even sadder the R&B community don't even acknowledge his studio albums, especially the early '70s ones. Also his first live album is a great one.

I totally agree about Curtis Mayfields other 70's albums. Now those recordings' being unsung and Superfly being overrated are two different things. Superfly just happened to get the most commercial success, but there are others he made in that period that are masterpieces.

Damn. ...Going to check out those other Curtis Mayfield solo albums

OF COURSE NOT!! Along with I Want You, my avorite album by one of my favorite artists. Inner City Blues still remains my favorite Marvin Gaye song and my favorie song of the entire 70's decade. It deseves all the love it gets.

sunlite said:

I totally agree about Curtis Mayfields other 70's albums. Now those recordings' being unsung and Superfly being overrated are two different things. Superfly just happened to get the most commercial success, but there are others he made in that period that are masterpieces.

Well, yeah. "Overrated" in the sense how underrated his other albums are. That's what I meant. However, I have to say that I get the feeling "Superfly" (or "Super Fly" as it seems to be written these days) has more filler moments than many of his other albums. His first solo album is flawless from start to finish.

There's something that bothers me about how the press and the larger public typically raises one work above everything else the artist has done and overlooks the rest. It's nice to see the artists getting recognition, but damn, they should bother to listen to at least more than just one or two records by those artists.

Yes , Marvin Gaye is overrated , period

Dewrede said:

Yes , Marvin Gaye is overrated , period

[img:$uid]http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/48/408148/1/59219154.violinsmash.gif[/img:$uid]

^

funny emo

Dewrede said:

^

funny emo

Had to find a good one.

^

i'm gonna add it to msn msg if you don't mind

[Edited 2/18/12 1:51am]

Dewrede said:

^

i'm gonna add it to msn msg if you don't mind

[Edited 2/18/12 1:51am]

No prob.