realtalk said:

RRA said:

Exactly. Remember before he died, MJ was still a pariah in America (well, America at least) and regularly dismissed as Whacko Jacko, Skeletor, etc.

Hell his music didn't become publicly respectable as classic pop again until his death, when his celebrity (good, bad, & the weird of it) no longer polluted that discussion.

I said at the time, I still say it as cruel as it sounds: Dying was the best career break for MJ at that time.

[Edited 2/6/12 16:22pm]

That is kind of an over-simplification...but whatever!

The dude had just got finished selling out 50 shows at a 17,000-18,000 seat arena in one city in under 4 hours, and AEG said that the demand was there to do another 50. His michaeljacksonlive.com site crashed due to the traffic and ticketmasters servers crashed due to the traffic.

Would he have sold 50 million records in the years after his death? No. Would he have broken every single digital sales record in the years after his death? No. Like many feats accomplished by Michael Jackson in his career- those kind of figures will probably never be seen again by anybody..ever.

But newsflash: Prince, U2, Madge, Rolling Stones, Bruce- none of them sell a whole lot of records these days. They make all their money touring, and I think by selling out those 50 shows in like 4 hours that there was a definite demand for Michael Jackson to get on the road and perform and that he would have destroyed every and all box office touring records had he stayed alive and been able to go on a world tour.

He hadnt toured in a long time there was pent up demand of course. But the tour really killed him it overstressed him he should have started small and built up. he needed more pratice. Even if he had started the tour he wont have lasted 3-4 nites and it would be called off.

Yes he sold shit load of records after his death but it still pales in comparison to what elvis sold after his death.

And the part of him being to old to move is balony how does mick jagger dance and sing at the same time? and he is way older

[Edited 2/6/12 19:24pm]

asg said:

realtalk said:

That is kind of an over-simplification...but whatever!

The dude had just got finished selling out 50 shows at a 17,000-18,000 seat arena in one city in under 4 hours, and AEG said that the demand was there to do another 50. His michaeljacksonlive.com site crashed due to the traffic and ticketmasters servers crashed due to the traffic.

Would he have sold 50 million records in the years after his death? No. Would he have broken every single digital sales record in the years after his death? No. Like many feats accomplished by Michael Jackson in his career- those kind of figures will probably never be seen again by anybody..ever.

But newsflash: Prince, U2, Madge, Rolling Stones, Bruce- none of them sell a whole lot of records these days. They make all their money touring, and I think by selling out those 50 shows in like 4 hours that there was a definite demand for Michael Jackson to get on the road and perform and that he would have destroyed every and all box office touring records had he stayed alive and been able to go on a world tour.

He hadnt toured in a long time there was pent up demand of course. But the tour really killed him it overstressed him he should have started small and built up. he needed more pratice. Even if he had started the tour he wont have lasted 3-4 nites and it would be called off.

Yes he sold shit load of records after his death but it still pales in comparison to what elvis sold after his death.

And the part of him being to old to move is balony how does mick jagger dance and sing at the same time? and he is way older

[Edited 2/6/12 19:24pm]

He sold records and downloads which made it a higher number than what is reported. And there are tons of people that I know have his music that got it free online or fake bootleg compilation CD's from cheap video stores, so can you imagine if those weren't there and it was decades ago with only options of CD's and cassettes?

realtalk said:

That is kind of an over-simplification...but whatever!

The dude had just got finished selling out 50 shows at a 17,000-18,000 seat arena in one city in under 4 hours, and AEG said that the demand was there to do another 50. His michaeljacksonlive.com site crashed due to the traffic and ticketmasters servers crashed due to the traffic.

Would he have sold 50 million records in the years after his death? No. Would he have broken every single digital sales record in the years after his death? No. Like many feats accomplished by Michael Jackson in his career- those kind of figures will probably never be seen again by anybody..ever.

But newsflash: Prince, U2, Madge, Rolling Stones, Bruce- none of them sell a whole lot of records these days. They make all their money touring, and I think by selling out those 50 shows in like 4 hours that there was a definite demand for Michael Jackson to get on the road and perform and that he would have destroyed every and all box office touring records had he stayed alive and been able to go on a world tour.

Let's demolish your points one at a time:

(1) Yes all those sell-outs...in London. Last I checked, London isn't in America. In America, MJ was seen as a pariah. In Europe, they didn't care about his scandals or problems. They still thought he was an awesome legend, they still respected him. The love was always there for him. I wonder if after those O2 concerts had done, would he have taken that show back to America as his new "comeback" effort? That would sense.

(2) No he wouldn't have done those sales if he was still breathing. I think you're stating the obvious and absolutely besides the point. You don't have t

(3) If not for the scandals, he would've been a touring juggernaut who would drop a new record every years, which pretty much would go to promoting the tours, like those pop star legends you mentioned. Maybe the This It It concerts would've been his long-awaited segway to that portion of his career? Thing is, I could totally see him ignoring the American market and hitting Europe/Asia/Latin America, maybe a tentative stop at NYC and LA or such major markets, test the waters for further American touring. Maybe that would've made Americans quit viewing him as a joke and instead as mother fucking Michael Jackson. Who knows?

I say all that because let me tell you something, you remember when he was alive, last of the 2000s. If MJ was mentioned in pop culture, it was as a punchline. And to be perfectly fair, some of that was his fault. Let's not play revisionistic history.

Then he died, and I remember being pleasantly surprised when the local classic rock stations started playing "Beat It" and his greatest hits, which honestly I don't remember them up here in hick whiter than sour cream East Tennessee ever playing them in rotation ever. (Hell they still don't play Prince. It'll take his demise to change that.)

Or let's put it another way: would friggin Glee have done a MJ-themed episode if he was still alive? NO. MAybe a track or two because why not? Because a whole episode? No. They wouldn't because they would be afraid that people wouldn't tune in. Sadly, it's a fact. Sure as hell too they wouldn't have invited him back to do the Super Bowl.

Unless of course, in this alternate reality daydreaming we're doing, he does revitalize his image and gets his respect and public dignity back. Who knows?

Not to be morbid, but would MJ has been physically able to do all those O2 shows? After the Murray trial and the stuff which came out from it, I'm just not convinced he was healthy enough (mind and body) to do all those shows. He would've done several shows and then forced to cancel the rest out of physical exhaustion (or worse.)

RRA said:

realtalk said:

That is kind of an over-simplification...but whatever!

The dude had just got finished selling out 50 shows at a 17,000-18,000 seat arena in one city in under 4 hours, and AEG said that the demand was there to do another 50. His michaeljacksonlive.com site crashed due to the traffic and ticketmasters servers crashed due to the traffic.

Would he have sold 50 million records in the years after his death? No. Would he have broken every single digital sales record in the years after his death? No. Like many feats accomplished by Michael Jackson in his career- those kind of figures will probably never be seen again by anybody..ever.

But newsflash: Prince, U2, Madge, Rolling Stones, Bruce- none of them sell a whole lot of records these days. They make all their money touring, and I think by selling out those 50 shows in like 4 hours that there was a definite demand for Michael Jackson to get on the road and perform and that he would have destroyed every and all box office touring records had he stayed alive and been able to go on a world tour.

Let's demolish your points one at a time:

(1) Yes all those sell-outs...in London. Last I checked, London isn't in America. In America, MJ was seen as a pariah. In Europe, they didn't care about his scandals or problems. They still thought he was an awesome legend, they still respected him. The love was always there for him. I wonder if after those O2 concerts had done, would he have taken that show back to America as his new "comeback" effort? That would sense.

(2) No he wouldn't have done those sales if he was still breathing. I think you're stating the obvious and absolutely besides the point. You don't have t

(3) If not for the scandals, he would've been a touring juggernaut who would drop a new record every years, which pretty much would go to promoting the tours, like those pop star legends you mentioned. Maybe the This It It concerts would've been his long-awaited segway to that portion of his career? Thing is, I could totally see him ignoring the American market and hitting Europe/Asia/Latin America, maybe a tentative stop at NYC and LA or such major markets, test the waters for further American touring. Maybe that would've made Americans quit viewing him as a joke and instead as mother fucking Michael Jackson. Who knows?

I say all that because let me tell you something, you remember when he was alive, last of the 2000s. If MJ was mentioned in pop culture, it was as a punchline. And to be perfectly fair, some of that was his fault. Let's not play revisionistic history.

Then he died, and I remember being pleasantly surprised when the local classic rock stations started playing "Beat It" and his greatest hits, which honestly I don't remember them up here in hick whiter than sour cream East Tennessee ever playing them in rotation ever. (Hell they still don't play Prince. It'll take his demise to change that.)

Or let's put it another way: would friggin Glee have done a MJ-themed episode if he was still alive? NO. MAybe a track or two because why not? Because a whole episode? No. They wouldn't because they would be afraid that people wouldn't tune in. Sadly, it's a fact. Sure as hell too they wouldn't have invited him back to do the Super Bowl.

Unless of course, in this alternate reality daydreaming we're doing, he does revitalize his image and gets his respect and public dignity back. Who knows?

There was no Glee yet when MJ died, and Glee has the same audience that watches American Idol, ABDC and other shows like that, so they may have done tracks if not a whole episode. If the This Is It tour was a success overseas and America caught on and he toured on this side of the world, they might have cashed in . Matter of fact is, we don't know. I don't understand why some of you re-write history. I Know he was treated as a pariah in the media and by lots of people, but there were also many people who respected him here too or casually liked him. I knew lots of people like that offline even before constantly going online to talk about him and during the 00's too. Maybe I just got lucky and met people like that. I even remember vacationing in the states in 07' and in a store, someone had a mixtape of MJ playing in a store, all these mixes I didn't own and I was jealous. Even during the allegations, I would hear his music in stores sometimes. I don't know if that made them diehards or not or what their opinion was, but people didn't stop playing his music though it wasn't excessive like after his death either.

RRA said:

Not to be morbid, but would MJ has been physically able to do all those O2 shows? After the Murray trial and the stuff which came out from it, I'm just not convinced he was healthy enough (mind and body) to do all those shows. He would've done several shows and then forced to cancel the rest out of physical exhaustion (or worse.)

He would have done 3-4 shows 7 at the max. You have to remember he was totally broke at that point and living off borrowed money free housing and such. And the shows were his way outta debt and although his health was a mess he was under tremendous pressure not to cancel them since that would just extend his financial nitemare. He shuld have done awards shows to regain his confidence and those r just 20min snippets

[Edited 2/6/12 20:21pm]

It pisses me off when people try to tie commercial success/failure to the quality of an album. In almost every interview and article these critics always state how he peaked with Thriller and everything after it was a mess. I was just watching a Superbowl post-interview about Janet's titty and in it the guy inadvertently bashes Michael by saying her last three albums weren't good and his last three albums weren't good. Excuse me? I thought Dangerous shitted on Thriller. I don't care if it sold less. There are a lot of factors that go into what becomes a hit and what doesn't.

Britney's poorest seller is her strongest. (Blackout) Any true fan of her will tell you that.

Michael was huge in the Dangerous era though I wasn't keep tabs on him yet. I just knew he was doing his thing from far cause of mentions in 1991-1993 but I wasn't keeping up unless people around me played him, and they didn't have the album. His popularity was very high and the sales weren't reflective of him being a flop though I know it did go down in the US a bit in 92 later on.

RRA said:

Not to be morbid, but would MJ has been physically able to do all those O2 shows? After the Murray trial and the stuff which came out from it, I'm just not convinced he was healthy enough (mind and body) to do all those shows. He would've done several shows and then forced to cancel the rest out of physical exhaustion (or worse.)

Don't know man but what i know is that Michael was never the same after the 1993 scandal. From that point everything went downhill for him, well musicaly i think it kinda inspired him to write some brilliant song but overall it had a huge negative impact in his life.

DAV123 said:

RRA said:

Exactly. Remember before he died, MJ was still a pariah in America (well, America at least) and regularly dismissed as Whacko Jacko, Skeletor, etc.

Hell his music didn't become publicly respectable as classic pop again until his death, when his celebrity (good, bad, & the weird of it) no longer polluted that discussion.

I said at the time, I still say it as cruel as it sounds: Dying was the best career break for MJ at that time.

[Edited 2/6/12 16:22pm]

So true.

Not true.

His music had became publicly respectable again a few years before his death. Music fans acknowled the merits of his early work and the general public certainly recognized his music as "classic pop". Pop artists were directly borrowing from him and making references to him (Justin Timberlake, Chris Brown, Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" incorporating "Wanna Be Startin' Something" on it and so on). Of course, he was still sometimes mocked in the press and some people dedicated a lot of time to malign him on the internet. In any case, the "Michael Jackson revival" was already happening before his death and his death only amplified it.

novabrkr said:

DAV123 said:

RRA said: So true.

Not true.

His music had became publicly respectable again a few years before his death. Music fans acknowled the merits of his early work and the general public certainly recognized his music as "classic pop". Pop artists were directly borrowing from him and making references to him (Justin Timberlake, Chris Brown, Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" incorporating "Wanna Be Startin' Something" on it and so on). Of course, he was still sometimes mocked in the press and some people dedicated a lot of time to malign him on the internet. In any case, the "Michael Jackson revival" was already happening before his death and his death only amplified it.

Thank you. I'm glad there are still people with common sense who can see this, as I said earlier in the thread. Kanye and Rihanna sampling him and the others dancing to him was like showing him respect. And not to mention high sales of Thriller 25 and shows like ABDC and American Idol all doing tributes before his death. Nobody forgot Michael Jackson before his death, he just wasn't a mainstream artist at the time releasing new music, that's it.

MJ's stage design would look surreal. If he would've lived I think his appreciation of the master artist would reflect in his stage designs. The stage would be SURREAL!

Artist Escher

mjscarousal said:

duccichucka said:

I'm willing to bet that you've never smoked crack.

Crack is not wack; being addicted to crack is wack. Get your anti-drug

slogans straight, kid.

I'm changing my tune anyways; brushing yo' teef gives one perspective: MJ was in

the biz since he was a child. So I guess peaking in his 30s ain't so bad; plus he

may have thought that his formula up until the Bad years was killer and didn't feel the

need to tweak his set as long as his audience didn't ask him to.

No I havent... I practice what I preach...

Secondly, you need to quit with spitting foolishness with Michael peaking after BAD which is utter bullshit...he was at the height of his creativity.. Dangerous and History are some of his best works... He peaked after History...

You sound like a angry MJ fan... what happened?

Its either that, crack, or trolling

[Edited 2/6/12 19:05pm]

OMG!

Somebody is posting an unpopular opinion about Michael Jackson - they must

be trolling!

He was the self-proclaimed King of Pop, not Kang of the World; he can be criticized

without me maligning his legacy (and even this is possible, if done respectfully).

2nd of all, explain to me how Bad, Dangerous and HIStory are some of his best

work? What makes those albums equal to or better than Off The Wall and/or Thriller?

In what way is Michael Jackson peaking during Dangerous and HIStory? I'm interested

in how you contextually view Dangerous as an album and what its cultural implications

were (I ask about the context and cultural implications of Dangerous because that is

the album that Kurt Cobain killed, ending MJ's reign as the pop musician with the most

pull), enabling someone to state its some of Jackson's "best works." Nevermind dis-

placing Dangerous is the beginning of the end of Jackson's influence.

Now, I've already conceded that because Jackson had been in the game since his youth,

that he may have peaked early; and that I ought to consider this before stating that he

was no longer trying to be creative. But the fact of the matter is this: his live shows did

not change much after the Bad world tours. This is evident by any live footage you see

post 1988.

I'll say it again:

If Michael Jackson was asked to perform at this year's Super Bowl, we would have witnessed

a show seen before as he was no longer making any large scale efforts to be creative.

This does not mean that MJ sucked, was a hack, that I don't like him, that he was a child

molester, that he was a drug addict; all it means is that dude probably said to himself "I

got the best show on Earth; no need to tweak it!" Instead of you getting pissed off because

I "dissed" your hero, answer my opinion with a detailed opinion of your own.

Me and my utter foolishness and bullshit opinions eagerly await your response.

duccichucka said:

OMG!

Somebody is posting an unpopular opinion about Michael Jackson - they must

be trolling!

He was the self-proclaimed King of Pop, not Kang of the World; he can be criticized

without me maligning his legacy (and even this is possible, if done respectfully).

2nd of all, explain to me how Bad, Dangerous and HIStory are some of his best

work? What makes those albums equal to or better than Off The Wall and/or Thriller?

In what way is Michael Jackson peaking during Dangerous and HIStory? I'm interested

in how you contextually view Dangerous as an album and what its cultural implications

were (I ask about the context and cultural implications of Dangerous because that is

the album that Kurt Cobain killed, ending MJ's reign as the pop musician with the most

pull), enabling someone to state its some of Jackson's "best works." Nevermind dis-

placing Dangerous is the beginning of the end of Jackson's influence.

Now, I've already conceded that because Jackson had been in the game since his youth,

that he may have peaked early; and that I ought to consider this before stating that he

was no longer trying to be creative. But the fact of the matter is this: his live shows did

not change much after the Bad world tours. This is evident by any live footage you see

post 1988.

I'll say it again:

If Michael Jackson was asked to perform at this year's Super Bowl, we would have witnessed

a show seen before as he was no longer making any large scale efforts to be creative.

This does not mean that MJ sucked, was a hack, that I don't like him, that he was a child

molester, that he was a drug addict; all it means is that dude probably said to himself "I

got the best show on Earth; no need to tweak it!" Instead of you getting pissed off because

I "dissed" your hero, answer my opinion with a detailed opinion of your own.

Me and my utter foolishness and bullshit opinions eagerly await your response.

(respectfully re: your opinions of MJ), after reading your post, i checked something out:

Also in 2012 Michael remains the king of Guinness World Records (+video)

[Edited 2/7/12 8:57am]

free2bfreeda said:

duccichucka said:

OMG!

Somebody is posting an unpopular opinion about Michael Jackson - they must

be trolling!

He was the self-proclaimed King of Pop, not Kang of the World; he can be criticized

without me maligning his legacy (and even this is possible, if done respectfully).

2nd of all, explain to me how Bad, Dangerous and HIStory are some of his best

work? What makes those albums equal to or better than Off The Wall and/or Thriller?

In what way is Michael Jackson peaking during Dangerous and HIStory? I'm interested

in how you contextually view Dangerous as an album and what its cultural implications

were (I ask about the context and cultural implications of Dangerous because that is

the album that Kurt Cobain killed, ending MJ's reign as the pop musician with the most

pull), enabling someone to state its some of Jackson's "best works." Nevermind dis-

placing Dangerous is the beginning of the end of Jackson's influence.

Now, I've already conceded that because Jackson had been in the game since his youth,

that he may have peaked early; and that I ought to consider this before stating that he

was no longer trying to be creative. But the fact of the matter is this: his live shows did

not change much after the Bad world tours. This is evident by any live footage you see

post 1988.

I'll say it again:

If Michael Jackson was asked to perform at this year's Super Bowl, we would have witnessed

a show seen before as he was no longer making any large scale efforts to be creative.

This does not mean that MJ sucked, was a hack, that I don't like him, that he was a child

molester, that he was a drug addict; all it means is that dude probably said to himself "I

got the best show on Earth; no need to tweak it!" Instead of you getting pissed off because

I "dissed" your hero, answer my opinion with a detailed opinion of your own.

Me and my utter foolishness and bullshit opinions eagerly await your response.

(respectfully re: your opinions of MJ), after reading your post, i checked something out:

Also in 2012 Michael remains the king of Guinness World Records (+video)

http://www.mjjcommunity.c...ld-Records!

Though later artists dominated the 2012 Guinness Book of World Records, Michael Jackson is still the king. In fact, he could easily be the Guinness Book of World Records’ most-recognized celebrity ever.

Thriller currently remains the best-selling album of all-time. On February 7, 1984, it was inducted into the Guinness Book of World Records.

Michael holds numerous other records including the most Grammy Awards won in a year, most hit singles in the UK charts in a year, best selling album of all time, longest span of No.1 hits by an R&B artist, best selling music video, highest annual earnings ever for a pop star, and most successful pop music family.

In this video Michael is presented at Guinness World Records with the honor of being ‘The Most Succesful Artist of All Time’:

Here are a few of the records that are still on Michael’s name:

Most Successful Concert Series – Guiness Book Of World Records : Michael Jackson sold out for seven nights at Wembley Stadium, London, England in the summer of 1988. A total of 504,000 people saw Michael perform July 14-16, 22-23, and August 26-27, 1988.

Biggest Selling Album Of All Time : Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” Album is the biggest selling album of all time, with over 50 million copies sold worldwide. Thriller is also the biggest selling U.S album with sales of 25 million copies.

Most Grammy Awards : Michael won a record breaking 8 Grammy Awards in 1984, more than any other artist in one year.

Largest Contracts : $890 million (Sony Music) Contract, with prospective earnings of $1 billion.

Greatest Audience : The highest-ever viewership was 133.4 million viewers watching the NBC transmission of Super Bowl XXVII on June 31, 1993. Michael was spotlighted during the half-time peformance.

Bad Tour : Michael Jackson’s world tour brought in a record gross revenue of over $124 million during September 1987-December 1988.

In the new 2012 Guinness Book of World Records release four new records carrying Michael’s name have been listed below:

1. Highest-Earning Deceased Artist : In the 2010 Forbes list, Michael Jackson (USA) topped the survey with earnings of $275 million (£169 million) for the year, which was more than the rest of the Top 10 combined. In the first year after his death on 25 June 2009, his estate is reported to have earned $1.017 billion (£625 million) in revenue, with album sales of over nine million in the US and 24 million outside. In that period, his record sales alone accounted for $383 million (£235 million).

2. Most Expensive Jacket Sold At Auction : The most valuable jacket sold at auction was the black and red calf leather jacket with winged shoulders worn by US singer Michael Jackson in his renowned 1983 Thriller video, which was sold to Milton Verret of Austin, Texas, USA, for £1.1m ($1.8m) at a sale organised by Julien’s Auction in Beverly Hills, USA, on 26 June 2011.

3. Longest Span Of US Top 40 Singles : Michael Jackson (USA, 1958-2009) holds the record with a span of 39 years and two months. He first charted on the Hot 100 with “Got To Be There” on 6 November 1971 and last hit with “Hold My Hand” on 1 January 2011.

4. Largest Poster : The largest poster measures 52.1 m (171 ft) in width by 51.8 m (170 ft) in length, giving a total area of 2,698.78 m² (29,070 ft²), and represents Michael Jackson’s ‘Michael’ album. It was unveiled at Rectory Farm, in Hounslow, UK, on 8 December 2010, and was created by painter Kadir Nelson (USA) in 2009 as a commission from Sony Music UK to promote the album. It took engineers three hours to install the poster, which is less than 3,000 m (9,842 ft) from one of Heathrow’s main runways and viewable by all planes arriving or departing.

note: for me, after MJ's numerous chosen facial structural changes, i kind of dropped out of placing him #1 on my list of performers. however during his entire career (minus the mega-negative press,) imo-dollarwi$e Michael Jackson continues to be successful at being a living definition of the term "super-bad," (aka: great!),

around the 2012 world!

note: guiness world records are 99% correct.

[Edited 2/7/12 8:55am]

And THERE it is....

thats why the whole arguement of him peaking after BAD is bullshit but whatever everyone has their "opinions" but ya cant deny the FACTS

DAV123 said:

This country could of gave a damn about Mike in my opinion....it was quite disgusting. He was a CONSTANT JOKE...which got really old with me quick. As a huge fan of Him, Prince and Madonna, it doesn't settle with me with too muCh negative talk about any of them. The flaws of all of them can be brought up ...what every ten seconds....but I don't give a damn. Mike and the others didn't get their iconic status cuz they could shake a fucking leg, or snap their fingers on a beat. They built their status on what they knew was best for them. I know many of people who point out the fact that was repetitive, shit I was saying this about Janet at one point. Her dancing at one point became was boring to me...didn't change a damn thing for me. When Janet was on I was right there, cuz I don't care that much to critique it to bashing the person. Today's musical artist/entertainers/wannabe ALL take from these three and they also took from previous performers....that is just the cycle.....with Mike however it was the biggest admiration anyone will probably see in our lifetime. I would have hoped MJ concert would have been successful. I thought it was way too many shows, but that is just me. If you take the health issues away and the knowledge of the insomnia and drugs....the average person still would have slammed the man for the child abuse scandal...it was like he was automatically doomed. I so wanted his children to see the frenzy it would have been to see their dad fuck everyone head up just one more time Same dance moves maybe...who cares...I can't do a third of that shit....it was mike and he would have delivered hit after hit and great show. With all of that said...he was to me even more appreciated to the average fan after he died....I think it really dawned on people just how much henhad out there and his influence worldwide...yeah we knew but we REALLY saw it smacked dead in our faces, that the world kinda mourned this "freak". A fan fan appreciated the man and the music, the casual MoFo's STILL called him the freak after he died. I was amazed at that shit like damn folks, give that shit a rest for real. So my experience The RESPECT was not like I would have wanted it to be....so I stand by agreeing with RRA. We can never truly know only speculate, and that is what I'm doing.

aaaaa

Fred Astaire

Michael dances/sings/performs along

side the greats.

mjscarousal said:

free2bfreeda said:

(respectfully re: your opinions of MJ), after reading your post, i checked something out:

Also in 2012 Michael remains the king of Guinness World Records (+video)

http://www.mjjcommunity.c...ld-Records!

Though later artists dominated the 2012 Guinness Book of World Records, Michael Jackson is still the king. In fact, he could easily be the Guinness Book of World Records’ most-recognized celebrity ever.

Thriller currently remains the best-selling album of all-time. On February 7, 1984, it was inducted into the Guinness Book of World Records.

Michael holds numerous other records including the most Grammy Awards won in a year, most hit singles in the UK charts in a year, best selling album of all time, longest span of No.1 hits by an R&B artist, best selling music video, highest annual earnings ever for a pop star, and most successful pop music family.

In this video Michael is presented at Guinness World Records with the honor of being ‘The Most Succesful Artist of All Time’:

Here are a few of the records that are still on Michael’s name:

Most Successful Concert Series – Guiness Book Of World Records : Michael Jackson sold out for seven nights at Wembley Stadium, London, England in the summer of 1988. A total of 504,000 people saw Michael perform July 14-16, 22-23, and August 26-27, 1988.

Biggest Selling Album Of All Time : Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” Album is the biggest selling album of all time, with over 50 million copies sold worldwide. Thriller is also the biggest selling U.S album with sales of 25 million copies.

Most Grammy Awards : Michael won a record breaking 8 Grammy Awards in 1984, more than any other artist in one year.

Largest Contracts : $890 million (Sony Music) Contract, with prospective earnings of $1 billion.

Greatest Audience : The highest-ever viewership was 133.4 million viewers watching the NBC transmission of Super Bowl XXVII on June 31, 1993. Michael was spotlighted during the half-time peformance.

Bad Tour : Michael Jackson’s world tour brought in a record gross revenue of over $124 million during September 1987-December 1988.

In the new 2012 Guinness Book of World Records release four new records carrying Michael’s name have been listed below:

1. Highest-Earning Deceased Artist : In the 2010 Forbes list, Michael Jackson (USA) topped the survey with earnings of $275 million (£169 million) for the year, which was more than the rest of the Top 10 combined. In the first year after his death on 25 June 2009, his estate is reported to have earned $1.017 billion (£625 million) in revenue, with album sales of over nine million in the US and 24 million outside. In that period, his record sales alone accounted for $383 million (£235 million).

2. Most Expensive Jacket Sold At Auction : The most valuable jacket sold at auction was the black and red calf leather jacket with winged shoulders worn by US singer Michael Jackson in his renowned 1983 Thriller video, which was sold to Milton Verret of Austin, Texas, USA, for £1.1m ($1.8m) at a sale organised by Julien’s Auction in Beverly Hills, USA, on 26 June 2011.

3. Longest Span Of US Top 40 Singles : Michael Jackson (USA, 1958-2009) holds the record with a span of 39 years and two months. He first charted on the Hot 100 with “Got To Be There” on 6 November 1971 and last hit with “Hold My Hand” on 1 January 2011.

4. Largest Poster : The largest poster measures 52.1 m (171 ft) in width by 51.8 m (170 ft) in length, giving a total area of 2,698.78 m² (29,070 ft²), and represents Michael Jackson’s ‘Michael’ album. It was unveiled at Rectory Farm, in Hounslow, UK, on 8 December 2010, and was created by painter Kadir Nelson (USA) in 2009 as a commission from Sony Music UK to promote the album. It took engineers three hours to install the poster, which is less than 3,000 m (9,842 ft) from one of Heathrow’s main runways and viewable by all planes arriving or departing.

note: for me, after MJ's numerous chosen facial structural changes, i kind of dropped out of placing him #1 on my list of performers. however during his entire career (minus the mega-negative press,) imo-dollarwi$e Michael Jackson continues to be successful at being a living definition of the term "super-bad," (aka: great!),

around the 2012 world!

note: guiness world records are 99% correct.

[Edited 2/7/12 8:55am]

And THERE it is....

thats why the whole arguement of him peaking after BAD is bullshit but whatever everyone has their "opinions" but ya cant deny the FACTS

This is an example of a perfectly flawed and fallacious argument.

There was absolutely nothing in those factoids that support the argument that Michael

Jackson's creativity had or hadn't peaked before or after Bad; before or after his death.

1. You mention that MJ's Thriller is the best selling album of all time: I never denied this

and this fact better supports my opinion than yours (which is still murky).

2. You mention the sales total for the Bad tour: great. I never denied that MJ wasn't a

top earner. And this supports my argument as well: I wonder if I should bet his

world tour sales weren't as high after Bad then they were before. Another misguided

attempt of yours to prove that he hadn't peaked after Bad.

3. You mention viewership totals for his Super Bowl appearance: awesome. I never denied

that he wasn't going to attract tv spectators. Of course, if Nirvana was performing for the

Super Bowl half time, it wouldn't have been the ratings bonanza that MJ provided, but

again, Nevermind presages the end of pop world domination straight outta Neverland.

4. You mention Grammy awards, longest span of top 40 singles, largest poster, most

successful concert series, largest record contract, etc: so the fuck what? You must acknow-

ledge that MJ achieved these things post/prior to Bad and that it is still possible that these

achievements came at the expense of his creativity.

You keep avoiding my issue: his live shows were all the same since Bad. If his live shows

were all the same since Bad; if he's putting together choreography, routines, stage designs,

and all that I discussed previously (which you managed to gloss over), I am warranted in

making the claim that this ni99a got lazy! - he wasn't going to put in a show that we've

never seen before if he was alive and kicking in 2012! It woulda been the samo shit, dude.

Who am I debating here, a first grader?

The opinion that MJ's creativity peaked at Bad is subjective, not objective. A book is not

going to tell you whether or not Thriller was bad or good - that is subjective. So you

can throw all the amazing facts about MJ's career at me all you want: the simple "fact"

of the matter is that homeboy's live shows did not change much if at all, after his Bad

world tour. I take that to mean a couple of things:

1. He got lazy

2. He peaked creatively either just before or after Bad

3. He did not want to tweak a set that made him rich and famous

Either way, 2012 Super Bowl viewers get the same show 1993 viewers received.

MJ was living off of his Thriller fame and success. He was never able to re-capture it but

he sure as hell wanted to emulate it - he got lazy, dude. Your defense of him is not based

upon any objective, impartial fact, but some zealous admiration. Any superlative MJ

achieved after Thriller is because of Thriller. And any superlative gained by MJ after Thriller

does not mean that he's pushing his creativity further. Proof?:

1983:

1996:

You go watch Is This It? and tell me how it's better than Moonwalker. MJ spent alot

of time trying to re-live past success.

You assembled a very bad argument here - get your house in order.

duccichucka said:

OMG!

Somebody is posting an unpopular opinion about Michael Jackson - they must

be trolling!

He was the self-proclaimed King of Pop, not Kang of the World; he can be criticized

without me maligning his legacy (and even this is possible, if done respectfully).

The fact that you are beggining your comment with self proclaim thought it doesn't make your opinion so unbiased though, right? First of all can you indicate to me how he proclaimed himself a King since from what i know it was a newspaper in the 84 that first called him King of Pop? But it must have been MJ paying that newspaper, so yeah, that's it. If you want a serious descusion don't involve tabloid stories on you comment. By the way King of Pop is a hideous title. He diserves better.

As far as your right to criticise MJ's work of course you are entitled to do it. Mike was no were near being flawless, he made a lot of mistakes concerning his career which some of them are unexplainable to me (for example the extreme use of lyp synch when he had a brilliant voice and he could kill in live performances)

2nd of all, explain to me how Bad, Dangerous and HIStory are some of his best

work? What makes those albums equal to or better than Off The Wall and/or Thriller?

In what way is Michael Jackson peaking during Dangerous and HIStory? I'm interested

in how you contextually view Dangerous as an album and what its cultural implications

were (I ask about the context and cultural implications of Dangerous because that is

the album that Kurt Cobain killed, ending MJ's reign as the pop musician with the most

pull), enabling someone to state its some of Jackson's "best works." Nevermind dis-

placing Dangerous is the beginning of the end of Jackson's influence.

What made Dangerous and History better than OTW and Thriller for some? Well maybe because sonically and mostly thematically and lyrically are superior to the aforementioned, a mixture of gospel,urban, r$b, pop, hip hop, industrial sounds which later will be used by other artists. Albums were Jackson is dealing with darker, more mature and personal themes like demostrating his open criticims and frustration against the media because of the fuckery that gave him during the 1993 allegations (Tabloid Junkie), with Jackson being one of the first, if not the first,artist speaking about enviromental issues (Earth Song) before that becames a fashion in the music and show bizz industry in general , with Jackson openly talking about his personal moments of mandess again during the 1993 allegations (Stranger in Moscow).

And you bring Nevermind as an example of what exactly?That is a stupid agroument that biased critics use as an example to shit over Dangerous. There was bound to be an album that would put Dangerous out of the charts, does that make it less brilliant than it is? And is very funny that you mention that Nevermind put an end to MJ reiging as pop musician when it is MJ himself that with Dangerous is making steps away from the Pop field, which he never was by the way, and is trying newer and more experimental, for him, things. Obviously for you it didn't work. For others it did.

Who is it And Stanger in Moscow are two of the best songs ever written by an artist. The first one is in Dangerous, the second in History.

Now, I've already conceded that because Jackson had been in the game since his youth,

that he may have peaked early; and that I ought to consider this before stating that he

was no longer trying to be creative. But the fact of the matter is this: his live shows did

not change much after the Bad world tours. This is evident by any live footage you see

post 1988.

Right, i can't disagree with the bold part. It didn't change much indeed. Don't know why ,like i don't know why he used to mime so damn much. Maybe, like you said, having toured since he was 9 or 10 he was over with that part of being an artist. Personally that doesn't make me think less of him as an artist or make me think that others are better than him.If you, on the other hand, want to use it as a factor of him being inferior of others then go ahead but personally i think that you are wrong.

I'll say it again:

If Michael Jackson was asked to perform at this year's Super Bowl, we would have witnessed

a show seen before as he was no longer making any large scale efforts to be creative.

This does not mean that MJ sucked, was a hack, that I don't like him, that he was a child

molester, that he was a drug addict; all it means is that dude probably said to himself "I

got the best show on Earth; no need to tweak it!" Instead of you getting pissed off because

I "dissed" your hero, answer my opinion with a detailed opinion of your own.

Me and my utter foolishness and bullshit opinions eagerly await your response.

That is a speculation, like the whole thread is a speculation. I can also speculate that because of all the bullshit that the man had been getting from everyone for the last twenty years of his life maybe, if he had done the show, he would try to give the best performance of his life, just to shut some mouths up and prove that he diserved all the titles that were given to him. But the fact remains that will never know.

[Edited 2/7/12 11:22am]

duccichucka said:

mjscarousal said:

And THERE it is....

re: free2bFreeda said:

Also in 2012 Michael remains the king of Guinness World Records (+video)

thats why the whole arguement of him peaking after BAD is bullshit but whatever everyone has their "opinions" but ya cant deny the FACTS

This is an example of a perfectly flawed and fallacious argument.

There was absolutely nothing in those factoids that support the argument that Michael

Jackson's creativity had or hadn't peaked before or after Bad; before or after his death.

1. You mention that MJ's Thriller is the best selling album of all time: I never denied this

and this fact better supports my opinion than yours (which is still murky).

2. You mention the sales total for the Bad tour: great. I never denied that MJ wasn't a

top earner. And this supports my argument as well: I wonder if I should bet his

world tour sales weren't as high after Bad then they were before. Another misguided

attempt of yours to prove that he hadn't peaked after Bad.

3. You mention viewership totals for his Super Bowl appearance: awesome. I never denied

that he wasn't going to attract tv spectators. Of course, if Nirvana was performing for the

Super Bowl half time, it wouldn't have been the ratings bonanza that MJ provided, but

again, Nevermind presages the end of pop world domination straight outta Neverland.

4. You mention Grammy awards, longest span of top 40 singles, largest poster, most

successful concert series, largest record contract, etc: so the fuck what? You must acknow-

ledge that MJ achieved these things post/prior to Bad and that it is still possible that these

achievements came at the expense of his creativity.

You keep avoiding my issue: his live shows were all the same since Bad. If his live shows

were all the same since Bad; if he's putting together choreography, routines, stage designs,

and all that I discussed previously (which you managed to gloss over), I am warranted in

making the claim that this ni99a got lazy! - he wasn't going to put in a show that we've

never seen before if he was alive and kicking in 2012! It woulda been the samo shit, dude.

Who am I debating here, a first grader?

The opinion that MJ's creativity peaked at Bad is subjective, not objective. A book is not

going to tell you whether or not Thriller was bad or good - that is subjective. So you

can throw all the amazing facts about MJ's career at me all you want: the simple "fact"

of the matter is that homeboy's live shows did not change much if at all, after his Bad

world tour. I take that to mean a couple of things:

1. He got lazy

2. He peaked creatively either just before or after Bad

3. He did not want to tweak a set that made him rich and famous

Either way, 2012 Super Bowl viewers get the same show 1993 viewers received.

MJ was living off of his Thriller fame and success. He was never able to re-capture it but

he sure as hell wanted to emulate it - he got lazy, dude. Your defense of him is not based

upon any objective, impartial fact, but some zealous admiration. Any superlative MJ

achieved after Thriller is because of Thriller. And any superlative gained by MJ after Thriller

does not mean that he's pushing his creativity further. Proof?:

You assembled a very bad argument here - get your house in order.

hmmmm .

seems like your here to argue. imo the effort would be inconsequential and a waste of time. i hope ur day gets better.

a , today.

out

[Edited 2/7/12 11:28am]

realtalk said:

That's the Michael that I'd want to see at a Super Bowl...and he just wasn't that dude anymore at age 50.

Thanks for making my day!

Now where's that BAD tour DVD we're waiting for???

duccichucka said:

I'm interested in how you contextually view Dangerous as an album and what its cultural implications were (I ask about the context and cultural implications of Dangerous because that is the album that Kurt Cobain killed, ending MJ's reign as the pop musician with the most

pull), enabling someone to state its some of Jackson's "best works." Nevermind dis-

placing Dangerous is the beginning of the end of Jackson's influence.

You do know that Dangerous outsold Nevermind, don't you? And is actually the second biggest selling MJ album worldwide.

Dangerous had been number 1 for two weeks before Nirvana knocked it off the topspot. Every number one album gets displaced, the only reason the whole Dangerous/Nevermind story is repeatedly mentioned is because it was a huge achievement for a relatively unknown grunge band from Seattle to knock the worlds biggest popstar off the the topspot. It has nothing to do with MJ's waning popularity or cultural relevance, as was proven by the fact that Dangerous outsold Nevermind both in the States and internationally.

duccichucka said:

mjscarousal said:

And THERE it is....

thats why the whole arguement of him peaking after BAD is bullshit but whatever everyone has their "opinions" but ya cant deny the FACTS

This is an example of a perfectly flawed and fallacious argument.

There was absolutely nothing in those factoids that support the argument that Michael

Jackson's creativity had or hadn't peaked before or after Bad; before or after his death.

1. You mention that MJ's Thriller is the best selling album of all time: I never denied this

and this fact better supports my opinion than yours (which is still murky).

2. You mention the sales total for the Bad tour: great. I never denied that MJ wasn't a

top earner. And this supports my argument as well: I wonder if I should bet his

world tour sales weren't as high after Bad then they were before. Another misguided

attempt of yours to prove that he hadn't peaked after Bad.

3. You mention viewership totals for his Super Bowl appearance: awesome. I never denied

that he wasn't going to attract tv spectators. Of course, if Nirvana was performing for the

Super Bowl half time, it wouldn't have been the ratings bonanza that MJ provided, but

again, Nevermind presages the end of pop world domination straight outta Neverland.

4. You mention Grammy awards, longest span of top 40 singles, largest poster, most

successful concert series, largest record contract, etc: so the fuck what? You must acknow-

ledge that MJ achieved these things post/prior to Bad and that it is still possible that these

achievements came at the expense of his creativity.

You keep avoiding my issue: his live shows were all the same since Bad. If his live shows

were all the same since Bad; if he's putting together choreography, routines, stage designs,

and all that I discussed previously (which you managed to gloss over), I am warranted in

making the claim that this ni99a got lazy! - he wasn't going to put in a show that we've

never seen before if he was alive and kicking in 2012! It woulda been the samo shit, dude.

Who am I debating here, a first grader?

The opinion that MJ's creativity peaked at Bad is subjective, not objective. A book is not

going to tell you whether or not Thriller was bad or good - that is subjective. So you

can throw all the amazing facts about MJ's career at me all you want: the simple "fact"

of the matter is that homeboy's live shows did not change much if at all, after his Bad

world tour. I take that to mean a couple of things:

1. He got lazy

2. He peaked creatively either just before or after Bad

3. He did not want to tweak a set that made him rich and famous

Either way, 2012 Super Bowl viewers get the same show 1993 viewers received.

MJ was living off of his Thriller fame and success. He was never able to re-capture it but

he sure as hell wanted to emulate it - he got lazy, dude. Your defense of him is not based

upon any objective, impartial fact, but some zealous admiration. Any superlative MJ

achieved after Thriller is because of Thriller. And any superlative gained by MJ after Thriller

does not mean that he's pushing his creativity further. Proof?:

1983:

1996:

You go watch Is This It? and tell me how it's better than Moonwalker. MJ spent alot

of time trying to re-live past success.

You assembled a very bad argument here - get your house in order.

Please..... shut the hell up before you hurt yourself... you are clearly a hater so I am not going to entertain this... people have posted factual information to prove to you your arguement is shit. Personally, I think you know this better than I do thats why you what to troll for laughs... but its kinda ridiculous now...

This thread is boring trite and needs to be renewed with images of anal stimulation.

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