Pomade said:

But have you seen W.E.? Oh, abysmal.

Yes. I have. Have you?

It's hardly "abysmal," you're being a hater.

Listen, I'm a new fan so I'm clearly biased but I'm also someone that walked out of "Evita." I couldn't do it. But I saw "W.E." at a screening in L.A and I was ready to be dissappointed, waiting for the cringe-worthy moment that comes from bad movies. That moment never came. In fact, I got so caught up in the story of Wallis and Edward that I forgot about the "director." It's beautifully shot and it has gorgous music and you can't tell me that Andrea Riseborough did not give a great performance. I think if anybody else had done this exact film they would've received props but since it's Madonna, well, people either love her or hate her.

Pomade said:

But have you seen W.E.? Oh, abysmal.

Like you saw it

RKJCNE said:

Pomade said:

But have you seen W.E.? Oh, abysmal.

Like you saw it

LOL!! Exactly... and no I haven't seen W.E because it's not here in the cinema's yet..

Two late night talk shows featured Madge and the female lead from the movie last night. Leno's clip of the movie showed the couple circling a tree during what was supposed to be a tense moment. It looked instead like a bad perfume ad. Craig Ferguson practically ripped the movie while talking to the female lead, and the clip she brought wasn't much better.

Madonna's talent lies in garnering attention through reinvention, but I wouldn't say she produces great art. Good art on occasion, definitely. But great? Nah. But that's OK. I'm sure that makes it all the richer for her.

Pomade said:

Madonna's talent lies in garnering attention through reinvention, but I wouldn't say she produces great art. Good art on occasion, definitely. But great? Nah. But that's OK. I'm sure that makes it all the richer for her.

Right...

I never was a HUGE fan of Madonna and to be honest find MOST of her music to be uninteresting. I do admit to liking some of her songs but nothng she has produced I would call "great".

I do understand her appeal but I think some elements about her are majorly overrated.

While she never was innovative, she is great at reinventing her self and being creative with her influences... I dunno... I do think she is overrated but to an extent she does deserve her attention. For instance, I dont think people should praise her for her musicianship, songwriting and singing live or her dancing which is decidely average. She is just someone who has been fortunate enough to have money to put on a big huge spetacle of a show. I highly doubt if it was just her and microphone on stage she would get the same attention...

Point blank, her image, reinvention of image, risk taking, and a few pop tunes, and alot of smart business moves has made Madonna into what she is today...

I hate when she is compared to artists like Prince and Michael Jackson though she shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentence as them...oh no no no...

Serious said:

DaveT said:

You ever been to one of her live shows (I'm not having a dig, I'm just curious)??

I've had friends that weren't keen on her who came to some of her shows with me and after seeing her do her thing live they understood why she's such a big star and icon.

No I never have been to any of her shows. I just saw shows of her on TV and wasn't impressed.

See, I've heard that before to. In fact my sister said exactly the same thing, but I dragged her to the Confessions Tour and it completely changed her mind. Before the show, she was like "meehh, nothing special" then after she totally got it.

I recommend getting a ticket for her next tour. I think it'll be the last tour she does where she really puts on an amazing, energetic show (she's not getting any younger!)

Serious said:

DaveT said:

Yeah, that!

Not every artist in the world is going to be releasing Beethoven's 5th on a regular basis. And some people out there actually want something different, like quality pop music or great dance music...Madonna has given this to us consistently since the early 80s. Just because its not "high brow" doesn't mean its not good or entertaining.

And the fact that she has stayed around for so long surely proves that. If someone is genuinely talentless I'm pretty sure they would have faded out long before the 30 year mark. Just look at all the wannabes from the early X-Factor and Pop Idol series...where are they now?

It's American Idol, but he is somebody who has star appeal and is a real talent IMO

I'd be alot more impressed if he was singing something he'd at least half written himself...

Pomade said:

Madonna's talent lies in garnering attention through reinvention, but I wouldn't say she produces great art. Good art on occasion, definitely. But great? Nah. But that's OK. I'm sure that makes it all the richer for her.

Nah,I disagree with that I think she has released some of the greatest pop singles of all time.There's no way she would have lasted 30+ years in this business if she wasn't doing great music.Attention-seeking gimmicks can only take you so far.You gotta have outstanding music to back it up.She seems to have a good ear for pop music....she knows what her audience wants to hear,she knows what people are dancing to in the clubs,etc.But she's also not afraid to take risks ('Ray Of Light',for example).I have said repeatedly that Madonna is the smartest person in pop music.

mjscarousal said:

Pomade said:

Madonna's talent lies in garnering attention through reinvention, but I wouldn't say she produces great art. Good art on occasion, definitely. But great? Nah. But that's OK. I'm sure that makes it all the richer for her.

Right...

I never was a HUGE fan of Madonna and to be honest find MOST of her music to be uninteresting. I do admit to liking some of her songs but nothng she has produced I would call "great".

I do understand her appeal but I think some elements about her are majorly overrated.

While she never was innovative, she is great at reinventing her self and being creative with her influences... I dunno... I do think she is overrated but to an extent she does deserve her attention. For instance, I dont think people should praise her for her musicianship, songwriting and singing live or her dancing which is decidely average. She is just someone who has been fortunate enough to have money to put on a big huge spetacle of a show. I highly doubt if it was just her and microphone on stage she would get the same attention...

Point blank, her image, reinvention of image, risk taking, and a few pop tunes, and alot of smart business moves has made Madonna into what she is today...

I hate when she is compared to artists like Prince and Michael Jackson though she shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentence as them...oh no no no...

Can't really disagree with what you said. Madonna was never great at any one thing, but I was think she was (and is) good in more areas of the business than nearly everyone else. For example, if you gave Prince a 98% for song writing for argument sake, I'd give Madonna a 65 or 70%. But if you look at another facet, say marketing and business savy you'd have to give Prince a 60% (he's made some pretty odd/dodgy choices over the years) and Madonna an 85%....she's not a genius in any of the areas she works in (in every area you could pick someone that could "out score" her so to speak), she just hits a bigger range of high numbers than anyone else.

The only point I would contest is the "she was never innovative" part. Its pretty widely accepted that when it comes to female artists there's two periods, before and after Madonna. She opened up more new territory for the ladies than anyone else did.

Serious said:

SoulAlive said:

Exactly.In 1983,they thought she would be a one-hit wonder who wouldn't last beyond the 80s.But look around...she's still here,making history....

It was around the same time when she and Cindy Lauper became really successful and Cindy Lauper is so much more intersting as an artist and personality IMO. She appeared to have star quality and Madonna seemed to be the 1 hit wonder. Not so long agao I saw a german TV host talking about watching Madonna practising for performing her song on his show (I think it was "Holiday")and saying how totally unimpressed he was with her "talent" and that he was totally sure he would never ever hear of her again.

I love the fact that she proved all her detractors wrong I'm sure that's very satisfying for her too.I remember an infamous quote by one of the editors of Billboard.This was in the mid-80s.He was comparing Madonna with Cyndi Lauper and he wrote something like "Cyndi Lauper will have a long career.Madonna will be over in six months".Lots of critics had that same mindset.

I like Cyndi Lauper,by the way

vainandy said:

SoulAlive said:

Exactly.In 1983,they thought she would be a one-hit wonder who wouldn't last beyond the 80s.But look around...she's still here,making history....

Her last tour was the most successful tour by a solo artist in history? I thought Shitney's tour was. Do we need a certain someone to come in here and post a thread full of sales figures?

Madonna's last tour grossed over $400 million and she played several stadiums on this tour.

sfinky1 said:

She's a very shrewd and clever businesswoman.

This I would agree with,but I think these things are very important if you want to have a long,successful career.It's not just about the talent,you gotta know how to handle your career.Unlike many of her peers,Madonna truly gets it....she knows how to play the game.

asg said:

She is just like newt shrewd but lacking any substance

You don't like anybody besides Prince,anyway

disgusting talentless hag

she's only huge because of her gay following

SoulAlive said:

I think it's a waste of time to analyze why an artist has many fans.Obviously,they have *something* that appeals to many people.You may not like it,but millions of other people do.It is what it is I think Madonna has lasted this long simply because she makes great pop and dance music.It's really that simple.

this is always what i've been saying.

People awalys talk about her being a great businesswoman, playing with the media....but without any good songs, she just wouldn't have lasted. Simple as that.

Dewrede said:

disgusting talentless hag

she's only huge because of her gay following

so u're implying that gay people don't have a good taste in music?

robertlove said:

SoulAlive said:

I think it's a waste of time to analyze why an artist has many fans.Obviously,they have *something* that appeals to many people.You may not like it,but millions of other people do.It is what it is I think Madonna has lasted this long simply because she makes great pop and dance music.It's really that simple.

this is always what i've been saying.

People awalys talk about her being a great businesswoman, playing with the media....but without any good songs, she just wouldn't have lasted. Simple as that.

Exactly.It's more than just good business sense...it's all of those great songs like "Into The Groove","Frozen","Music","Express Yourself","Vogue","Ray Of Light","Like A Prayer","Live To Tell","La Isla Bonita","Holiday","Dress You Up" and countless others.Without all of those amazing songs,she would not have been made it this far.Would the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induct her just because of her shock tactics? Would she be selling out stadiums if all she had to offer was gimmicks and shock tactics? Would fans really pay $300 to see her if the songs weren't amazing? Madonna is one of the greatest pop artists of all time.Her hit-filled catalog speaks for itself.

go2theMax said:

Dewrede said:

disgusting talentless hag

she's only huge because of her gay following

so u're implying that gay people don't have a good taste in music?

OOooo...dig youself out of that hole!!

I'll add that I'm a straight happily married man whose been a Madonna fan since I was a kid in the late eighties...and my musical tastes embrace everything from Springsteen and Pink Floyd, to Marvin Gaye, Foo Fighters, the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band, Prince, 2Pac, modern dance music, classical and everything in between (including Hendrix!)