http://jonherington.com/

[Edited 1/26/12 9:41am]

TD3 said:

I saw Steely Dan in concert at the Metro in 1973 or late 72 (I can't remember) at the Metro. They were as "tight" live as they were on vinly.

They were the antithesis of the 70's music scene.... anything goes. For one their sound was completely original. They weren't a jazz group, they really weren't a rock band, and I think it pretty lazy to call define them as Jazz Fusion. They just pulled all these other influences from Rock, Be-bop, R&B and created these complex songs. I've always sorta dug how they reworked 12 bar blues progressions in their songs. Brilliant musicians and the lyrics.... wow.

If you're referring to my use of that term, here's what I actually said:

They're influenced by jazz/fusion, sure, but they're a rock band just as informed by the blues as any other rock band.

You may not have been, but this DanFan wants to make sure the record's clear.

[Edited 1/26/12 9:39am]

loves his solo album ..

[Edited 1/26/12 9:46am]

jon1967 said:

loves his solo album ..

[Edited 1/26/12 9:46am]

Someone stole my copy of this.

paligap said:

....

You know that old saying, that writing about music is like dancing about architecture? Tht's how I feel, especially when trying to write about Steely Dan.

It's true that they take difficult music and somehow make it sound smooth, with Fagen's shaky, dark hipster voice, then use it to mask subversive or arcane lyrics..but, as others have mentioned , it's really a combination of feels, a weird mix boiled down to sound fairly easy--

--some tracks are blues, but with inverted and modulated chords (Like Peg, Chained Lightning, and Pretzel Logic), and others are ...well, like this, a combination of styles:

Your Gold Teeth II

or free form, combined with complex chord changes like this--

AJA (with Wayne Shorter and Steve Gadd)

Keep in mind, all of this used to get play on Progressive rock stations, Pop stations, R&B stations---but these days, you're most likely to only hear their music on "Smooth Jazz" stations --all I can say is , I wish most smooth jazz sounded like this! I don't even think somebody like Kenny G could ever get through the changes on something like AJA,

But, having said all that, it boils down to--you either like it, or you don't-not for every taste.

Pat Metheny once said that people rate music by the way it makes them feel, the way it speaks to them inside--- and in the end that has very little to do with how much techique or complexity a musician has, or doesn't have--those that feel it, like it -- those that don't simply move onto something else...

...

[Edited 1/26/12 9:38am]

Harlepolis said:

Tittypants said:

What's the big deal about Steely Dan?!?!?! Maaaaaan......I'm not even messing with this one. If you don't get it, I feel sorry for you.....

[Edited 1/26/12 10:11am]

Vendetta1 said:

jon1967 said:

loves his solo album ..

[Edited 1/26/12 9:46am]

Someone stole my copy of this.

when my car was stolen yrs ago i had in it Bowies Tin Machine live at LAX on tape .. fuck was i ata loss .. lucky got another copy yrs later ... hate thiefs.

Great post, Pali

Harlepolis said:

Great post, Pali

Great thread, Harle! but actually, I was just trying to expand on what everybody else was posting. I'm thinking that on the average, musicians might like Steely Dan even more than the average listener. Back in the day, the cream of the crop all clamored to be part of their sessions. Most of The Crusaders are featured on AJA, as well as legends like Chuck Rainey, Michael Mcdonald and Bernard Purdie. They got the chance to strut their stuff in a complex and progressive pop context , and that usually wasn't the case for many other studio sessions. Drummer Rick Marotta kind of breaks it down in that Making of video that jon1967 posted, those nuances he 's talking about didn't get heard in a lot of other pop sessions (Joni notwithstanding)of that time period:

...

[Edited 1/26/12 11:54am]

did i hear once about theyre music in a documentary if your a guitar player u cant play theyre music solo or something like that .. i know i didnt get the quote right but u need all of the parts to play a song ..

They are one of my all-time favorites. right up there with Prince and Joni Mitchell. I can remember as a kid how songs like "Deacon Blues" and "FM" crossed over to R&B radio. When a group can be loved by jazz, rock, and R&B fans simultaneously something is definitely going on with their music.

I've always loved the dark and mysteriousnes of the music and lyrics. I remember having a listening session with a friend where we both would propose our interpretations of what the songs meant. The songs are full of dark subjects even songs that sound upbeat mask some darkness of spirit.

I also love how a pop song could vere so heavily into jazz and instrmental solos. Its music that speaks to the intellect in both its musical construction and the content of the lyrics. "Aja" like coltranes "love supreme" or even Prince's TRC seem to be music created simply for the artist themselves without regard to the marketplace or consumer expectations. They are simply ART.

tricky99 said:

They are one of my all-time favorites. right up there with Prince and Joni Mitchell. I can remember as a kid how songs like "Deacon Blues" and "FM" crossed over to R&B radio. When a group can be loved by jazz, rock, and R&B fans simultaneously something is definitely going on with their music.

I've always loved the dark and mysteriousnes of the music and lyrics. I remember having a listening session with a friend where we both would propose our interpretations of what the songs meant. The songs are full of dark subjects even songs that sound upbeat mask some darkness of spirit.

I also love how a pop song could vere so heavily into jazz and instrmental solos. Its music that speaks to the intellect in both its musical construction and the content of the lyrics. "Aja" like coltranes "love supreme" or even Prince's TRC seem to be music created simply for the artist themselves without regard to the marketplace or consumer expectations. They are simply ART.

We agree on something!!

I was thinking of my favorite Fagen song: I.G.Y. The chorus is so upbeat but if you listen to the other words, it's pretty messed up.

http://www.mixpod.com/sta...d=70645863

[Edited 1/26/12 12:39pm]

Vendetta1 said:

tricky99 said:

They are one of my all-time favorites. right up there with Prince and Joni Mitchell. I can remember as a kid how songs like "Deacon Blues" and "FM" crossed over to R&B radio. When a group can be loved by jazz, rock, and R&B fans simultaneously something is definitely going on with their music.

I've always loved the dark and mysteriousnes of the music and lyrics. I remember having a listening session with a friend where we both would propose our interpretations of what the songs meant. The songs are full of dark subjects even songs that sound upbeat mask some darkness of spirit.

I also love how a pop song could vere so heavily into jazz and instrmental solos. Its music that speaks to the intellect in both its musical construction and the content of the lyrics. "Aja" like coltranes "love supreme" or even Prince's TRC seem to be music created simply for the artist themselves without regard to the marketplace or consumer expectations. They are simply ART.

We agree on something!!

I was thinking of my favorite Fagen song: I.G.Y. The chorus is so upbeat but if you listen to the other words, it's pretty messed up.

They were worse in the mid seventies -if you take a song like the creepy "Everyone's Gone to the Movies" (From "Katy Lied") you couldn't put a song like that out today without being hauled in front of a Congressional committee! but yeah--upbeat chorus, masking perversion:

Kids if you want some fun
Mr. LaPage is your man
He's always laughing, having fun
Showing his films in the den
Come on, come on
Soon you will be eighteen
I think you know what I mean
Don't tell your mama
Your daddy or mama
They'll never know where you been
CHORUS:
Everyone's gone to the movies
Now we're alone at last

Listen to what I say
He wants to show you the way
Right down the hallway with open arms
To teach you a new game to play
Come on, come on
Soon it will be too late
Bobbing for apples can wait
We know you're used to sixteen or more
Sorry we only have eight

CHORUS

Kids if you want some fun
See what you never have seen
Take off your cheaters and sit right down
Start the projection machine

Everyone's Gone to the Movies (alternate take)

...

[Edited 1/26/12 12:38pm]

Dren5 said:

If "Do It Again" is any indication of their personal views and the general subject matter of their work as a whole then they actually seem to be warning against hedonism, drug-use and self-destructive behavior... which makes it kind of ironic that people get high to their work.

Then again they say that most people don't actually pay attention to the lyrics of songs...which is a damn shame.

I got that sense also with the songs in Gaucho, like Glamour Profession:

Living hard will take it's toll..

illegal fun, under the sun...

Hollywood, I know your middle name...

or with older men getting too caught up in chasing younger women , in "Babylon Sisters", and "Hey Nineteen":

"My friends say, ''no-- don't go for that cotton candy,

son, you're playing with fire!"

the Kid will live and learn,

as he watches his bridges burn ,

from the point of no return,

Chorus:

Babylon Sisters, Shake it,

So fine, so young; tell me I'm the only one...

''Hey Nineteen"

Hey Nineteen
That's 'Retha Franklin'!

She don't remember the Queen of Soul
It's hard times befallen
The sole survivors
She thinks I'm crazy,
But I'm just growing old

Hey Nineteen
No we got nothing in common

(we can't dance together)
No we can't talk at all....

...

[Edited 1/26/12 14:10pm]

Oh Wow. Steely Dan = Musicianship at its finest. I get the issue with "lounge" feel but they have amazing amazing AMAZING SONGS that are anything but.

Love! them!

Real music by really, really talented musicians.

Plus, no one knows what ANY of their songs are about, so it's fun to try and imagine what drugs Fagan was on when he wrote the lyrics.

jon1967 said:

did i hear once about theyre music in a documentary if your a guitar player u cant play theyre music solo or something like that .. i know i didnt get the quote right but u need all of the parts to play a song ..

I can play a couple songs acoustically and have before an audience, but it ain't easy!

Try "My Old School" and "Rikki Don't Lose that Number". Beyond that, hmmmm. I'd have to think about it.

And I will!

OK, I read all the posts here. Two things:

1. STEELY DAN IS NOT A BAND. It's Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, and whatever first-class musicians they decide to play with. But Steely Dan is not and has NEVER been a band

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

paligap said:

Harlepolis said:

Great post, Pali

Great thread, Harle! but actually, I was just trying to expand on what everybody else was posting. I'm thinking that on the average, musicians might like Steely Dan even more than the average listener. Back in the day, the cream of the crop all clamored to be part of their sessions. Most of The Crusaders are featured on AJA, as well as legends like Chuck Rainey, Michael Mcdonald and Bernard Purdie. They got the chance to strut their stuff in a complex and progressive pop context , and that usually wasn't the case for many other studio sessions. Drummer Rick Marotta kind of breaks it down in that Making of video that jon1967 posted, those nuances he 's talking about didn't get heard in a lot of other pop sessions (Joni notwithstanding)of that time period:

...

[Edited 1/26/12 11:54am]

I'm assuming the back-up vocals are multi-layered, the credits say there're only two people singing background, but it sounds like a barbershop quartet.

Speaking of which, loved the short revival of vocal groups(and I mean the ones from the late 40s/early 50s) that popped up in the 70s, it was short lived, but it was captured here and in Oscar Petersons' 70s albums.

RodeoSchro said:

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

I think their lyrics are cryptic - yes - but I don't think they would make it so to the point where folks can't interpret them, I think the intention was keeping interpretation open. Otherwise, whats there to gain?

To have such a huge following, its just cynical to think ALL of those people don't understand what those guys were saying.

[Edited 1/26/12 15:01pm]

RodeoSchro said:

OK, I read all the posts here. Two things:

1. STEELY DAN IS NOT A BAND. It's Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, and whatever first-class musicians they decide to play with. But Steely Dan is not and has NEVER been a band

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

I'm not a huge fan and not all that knowledgeable but weren't they a band in the early years? Maybe the first three albums? I thought half the original band left over disagreements about touring?

Harlepolis said:

paligap said:

I'm assuming the back-up vocals are multi-layered, the credits say there're only two people singing background, but it sounds like a barbershop quartet.

Speaking of which, loved the short revival of vocal groups(and I mean the ones from the late 40s/early 50s) that popped up in the 70s, it was short lived, but it was captured here and in Oscar Petersons' 70s albums.

If check out the end of that clip, you see Michael McDonald layering his vocals over and over--the same way Fagen did on the Nightfly, on tracks like Maxine....

...

RodeoSchro said:

OK, I read all the posts here. Two things:

1. STEELY DAN IS NOT A BAND. It's Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, and whatever first-class musicians they decide to play with. But Steely Dan is not and has NEVER been a band

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

I've always thought they started out as a band when Skunk Baxter was there? Fagen shared lead vocals on the first album: Can't Buy a Thrill, before the sole lead.. and later they dis-band, sorta..

I could LITERALLY spend HOURS

talking about HOW MUCH I LOVE

the music of Steely Dan.

I know that a lot of people - most people? - don't "get" their music. it seems like somehow, a sort of "Steely Dan snobbism" has developed.. where those who don't get the music think that those who do have "superior music taste" or something like that.

clearly, Steely Dan is NOT "for the masses". I think their approach to making music has always been what prince's approach to music USED to be; basically, "we make the music we like, in the way we like it.. & if you can get to it cool & if not oh well.."

I don't think nor have ever thought that those who don't dig the Dan are "inferior" in some way or have "inferior musical taste"..

it's simply that.. with Steely Dan.. their music really is on a different level.

musically - "sonically" - the attention to detail is.. obsessive.

a song like "Peg" - 1 of their best known songs (for obvious reasons) - I've played that song - literally - about 2000 times. every time I play that song, I hear something in it that I hadn't heard previously. in their "Aja" dvd, the guy who played the drums on "Peg" talks about how he would open up the hi-hat very slightly as he played.. & in all the years he had done that, he had never heard his little technique in a song that was recorded that he played on. in "Peg", however, he could hear that little "hi-hat opening" & he was impressed by that.

I like how most Steely Dan songs are very good at creating a "mood" that I can feel. I think about "what a shame about me" on "two against nature" ("2vN").. the opening 8 bars.. I have the impression of being in that part of Manhattan where the pathetic protagonist is wasting his life away working in that bookstore. a lot of people - myself included - appreciate the narrative form of their songs.. wherein more times than not, the songs "tell a story" & it's not the USUAL presentation of "love" or "sex" or "drugs" &/or rock & roll..

that's another part of what I like about Steely Dan: it's been said - very often - that many of the "characters" in their songs are perverted, pathetic low-lifes that aren't about anything. to me, some of the "characters" in the song are so down-and-out that I somehow relate to them - within the context of my own life experiences. several times in my life, I've been able to relate to the theme of the song "any world that I'm welcome to"

the song "AJA" in particular - there's been more than 1 period in my life where I thought "this guy" (Fagen) is singing as if he were living my life!"

so I think many people relate to the.. "imperfections" (I'll call it) of the personnages of many of the songs.

I also love - from a musical perspective - how the Dan so often & so well blends different styles of music. yeah, basically they started out as a "rock band".. but even in the "beginning" (="can't buy a thrill" & "countdown to ecstasy") they were NOT a "conventional rock band".. their sound clearly evolved.. & it evolved in large part because Fagen & Becker were able to combine - BRILLIANTLY most of the time - different elements of blues, jazz, soul, rock.. a little reggae here ("haitian divorce"), a little ragtime there..

songs that you hear on "aja" or "gaucho".. they're really not "jazz compositions" but many of the songs have jazz "elements" or structures in them

(NO, don't ask me to elaborate on that because I don't have the music education or know the terminology to do so..!)

my all-time favorite Steely Dan song is JANIE RUNAWAY, from 2vN. listen to this song. it's definitely NOT a "rock" song. it's definitely NOT a "jazz song" in the "traditional sense".. it's not a "soul" record or an "r&b" record.. but it has.. elements/aspects/influences of those different genres..

I just sort of "blurted out" this post..

I really didn't speak about how much I like/appreciate most of the LYRICS in Steely Dan songs..

I will make the effort to "collect myself".. & be a little more "coherent".. & then attempt to make a logical, reasoned statement about how good most of their lyrics are..

Steely Dan.

Steely Dan.

Steely Dan.

NOT EVERYBODY "gets" them.. but those of us who do..

it's like living in your own little.. world..

let's grab some takeout

from Dean & DeLuca

a hearty gulping wine

you be the showgirl

I'll be Sinatra

way back in '59..

RodeoSchro said:

OK, I read all the posts here. Two things:

1. STEELY DAN IS NOT A BAND. It's Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, and whatever first-class musicians they decide to play with. But Steely Dan is not and has NEVER been a band

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

A band can be two people, my friend, and that they are!

The most common mistake is people think that Donald Fagan is Steely Dan. Ie they think THAT is his name!

Thought I'd add this: for those that find them too slick...or myopic about the musical details....

I've seen them live 3 times & heard many of their live bootlegs. There is a slight "playfulness" and...umm..if it applies..."spontaneity" to their live act that just NEVER gets captured in-studio.

RodeoSchro said:

OK, I read all the posts here. Two things:

1. STEELY DAN IS NOT A BAND. It's Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, and whatever first-class musicians they decide to play with. But Steely Dan is not and has NEVER been a band

2. All you people saying you understand what the songs are about are lying, lying, lying!

sure, two people can comprise a band. they're not a solo act.

and the reason people have listened to their music for so long is that people are still trying to get the songs, or at least, that's why i have . . .

jon1967 said:

http://jonherington.com/

[Edited 1/26/12 9:41am]

on the strength of this....I know I love them again.

I gotta say the san diego show i went to was pretty fn cool for me. First time seein em i didnt know what to expect, would the stage show reflect what id heard recorded etc. It did n then some. It was, whats the statements ~" off the hook? Then half way into it alot of ppl went right to the front of the stage, so much so you could rest your elbows on it, which is what i did n no security told anyone to leave so thats how i watched it. It was like the loudest stereo blastin Dan music i mean what paradise right. Magical.. i just closed my eyes n was wisked away by the steely thunder. Fagen is a lil more enthusiastic onstage vs Rick Ocasek who just stands there n looks like hes not thrilled by anything .. Saw The Cars when they came to LA. [img:$uid]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/jonwolslau/SteelyDan.jpg[/img:$uid]

ya i kno shitty pic but takin pics wasnt hi on the list that night ..

[Edited 1/27/12 10:43am]

[Edited 1/27/12 10:57am]

I became a fan of theirs in high school, for the quality of the songs and musicianship.

Later, I started to think of them as pretty empty calories. Incredibly slick and technically perfect, but not offering much in the way of emotional value.

Even later, I began to look again at how brilliantly their songs were put together, how original they are, and how much personality they have compared to, say, a David Sanborn song. Add to that the lyrics, which are bizarre, intelligent, clever, and very original. And of course, the top level musicianship.

So now I appreciate them for what they are, which is the height of slick jazzy pop. You really can't do what they do any better than they do it. I don't knock them for not having a cutting emotional edge or a raw sound.