Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Oh, definitely! If you could have seen them on stage there was no doubt that they were smitten with each other and had sealed the deal!

I saw footage from back then. It always looked from their expressions that they couldn't wait to knock boots.

They were in love and lust all over the stage--eye contact, constant touching, singing to each other... Now, that I think back on it--it was pretty romantic. It was like they couldn't help themselves. Although people were empathetic for his then wife...evidently this was the real thing for Bruce...since they are still together.

I also agree that with the passing of Clarence Clemons, the heart and soul of the E Street band was lost. Even though Bruce may continue with them...it will never be the same.

purplethunder3121 said:

I also agree that with the passing of Clarence Clemons, the heart and soul of the E Street band was lost. Even though Bruce may continue with them...it will never be the same.

When I was a kid and we had this same discussion, I would've thought the ones that only mattered was Bruce and "Little" Steven Van Zandt but now we see it was "The Big Man". Such an icon and he didn't have to release any music on his own. Just his presence showed you he was as much a superstar as Bruce was. RIP

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

I also agree that with the passing of Clarence Clemons, the heart and soul of the E Street band was lost. Even though Bruce may continue with them...it will never be the same.

When I was a kid and we had this same discussion, I would've thought the ones that only mattered was Bruce and "Little" Steven Van Zandt but now we see it was "The Big Man". Such an icon and he didn't have to release any music on his own. Just his presence showed you he was as much a superstar as Bruce was. RIP

Definitely! He is sorely missed...as Bruce stated. He can never be replaced. Fortunately, he left a great legacy of his music behind for us to enjoy.

purplethunder3121 said:

Ace said:

I could talk Bruce 'til the cows come home. :brucenerd:

Yeah, I'm a Brucenerd, too! Old Bruce that is. I saw him back in the 80s at an AIDS benefit concert. I was pissed that Sting didn't show up but Bruce was there in fine form with his band--the only beef I had was that he spent too much time on stage making out with his then back-up singer (now, wife!). A lot of people walked out early on his set because of that.

AIDS benefit? You must mean the "Human Rights Now" tour for Amnesty International, no?

Timmy84 said:

And from what I can recall, he's still kissing his wife onstage today.

Rarely, if ever, has he done so. He has flirted up a storm with her, though (mainly on the Tunnel of Love/Amnesty jaunt).

purplethunder3121 said:

Timmy84 said:

And from what I can recall, he's still kissing his wife onstage today.

Well, I'm glad it lasted because he was certainly taken with her back in '89 or so when I saw him. What people had a problem with was the fact he was still married. Guess they beat the odds!

'88. And, depending on which sources you believe, the marriage was already over. Apparently, if you go back and look at the pics, he was no longer wearing his wedding band onstage, when the actual offstage humping began.

Ace said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Well, I'm glad it lasted because he was certainly taken with her back in '89 or so when I saw him. What people had a problem with was the fact he was still married. Guess they beat the odds!

'88. And, depending on which sources you believe, the marriage was already over. Apparently, if you go back and look at the pics, he was no longer wearing his wedding band onstage, when the actual offstage humping began.

It well may have been '88 when I saw the on-stage humping... That was a loooooong time ago!

lastdecember said:

Why should artists be held up to thirty and forty years ago, and WHY cant they have great albums now?

They can. unnel of Love, Human Touch, Lucky Town and The Rising are, like, my favourite Springsteen albums. And I thought "Long Walk Home" (from his second-last album, Magic) was a masterpiece). "Kingdom of Days" (from the last) wasn't shabby, either. But I just don't think he's made a great album since The Rising and the new single is solid, but nothing to write home about.

I mean actors do, TOM HANKS has movies better now than he did in the 80's when he was doing "the man with one red shoe" i mean really are we going to compare that actor with todays? come on folks let this shit go

My belief is that writers almost always get better as they age. But I also believe in what Paul Simon said (that you only have a certain store of melody in you and that that tends to get used up in your younger days). Springsteen is fully capable of writing his best work ever now, but he's too worried about placating the nostalgia buffs in his audience (and they are legion).

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Oh, definitely! If you could have seen them on stage there was no doubt that they were smitten with each other and had sealed the deal!

I saw footage from back then. It always looked from their expressions that they couldn't wait to knock boots.

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Oh, definitely! If you could have seen them on stage there was no doubt that they were smitten with each other and had sealed the deal!

I saw footage from back then. It always looked from their expressions that they couldn't wait to knock boots.

Ace said:

lastdecember said:

Why should artists be held up to thirty and forty years ago, and WHY cant they have great albums now?

They can. unnel of Love, Human Touch, Lucky Town and The Rising are, like, my favourite Springsteen albums. And I thought "Long Walk Home" (from his second-last album, Magic) was a masterpiece). "Kingdom of Days" (from the last) wasn't shabby, either. But I just don't think he's made a great album since The Rising and the new single is solid, but nothing to write home about.

I mean actors do, TOM HANKS has movies better now than he did in the 80's when he was doing "the man with one red shoe" i mean really are we going to compare that actor with todays? come on folks let this shit go

My belief is that writers almost always get better as they age. But I also believe in what Paul Simon said (that you only have a certain store of melody in you and that that tends to get used up in your younger days). Springsteen is fully capable of writing his best work ever now, but he's too worried about placating the nostalgia buffs in his audience (and they are legion).

I feel the same and with anyone with a career and catalog, sometimes u just dont hit the homerun. I mean the greatest Baseball player usually hits 330? that means 33% of the time he does things well, i think artists like Bruce, Prince,Wonder,Mellencamp,Joel,Elton, Bowie etc...have pretty much done far more than 33% good work.

As for age its impossible to compare any artist now to then, i mean i cant even think of the shit i used to say, write, when i was a teenager and not cringe, when i look at my work now as a writer of theatre plays i say i could never write interesting stuff like this when i was 18,19,20. And thats how it is with all fields i think.

Ace said:

Timmy84 said:

I saw footage from back then. It always looked from their expressions that they couldn't wait to knock boots.

Ha, that's it!

Ace said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Yeah, I'm a Brucenerd, too! Old Bruce that is. I saw him back in the 80s at an AIDS benefit concert. I was pissed that Sting didn't show up but Bruce was there in fine form with his band--the only beef I had was that he spent too much time on stage making out with his then back-up singer (now, wife!). A lot of people walked out early on his set because of that.

AIDS benefit? You must mean the "Human Rights Now" tour for Amnesty International, no?

I thought it was an AIDS benefit show but you may be right that it was for Amnesty International--it was so freaking long ago...I can't remember. Maybe the AIDS benefit was another concert! Forgive my old memory--I think you are right.

Timmy84 said:

Ace said:

Ha, that's it!

Yup! That is exactly how I remember them on stage!

lastdecember said:

i cant even think of the shit i used to say, write, when i was a teenager and not cringe

You and me both, man. You and me both.

when i look at my work now as a writer of theatre plays i say i could never write interesting stuff like this when i was 18,19,20. And thats how it is with all fields i think.

I agree. Which is why I think it's so sad that people in their forties, fifties and sixties (Springsteen's audience, for the most part) want to cling to the "wisdom" of a 25-year-old. Really, folks? "Thunder Road"? "Jungleland"? Really?

purplethunder3121 said:

Ace said:

AIDS benefit? You must mean the "Human Rights Now" tour for Amnesty International, no?

I thought it was an AIDS benefit show but you may be right that it was for Amnesty International--it was so freaking long ago...I can't remember. Maybe the AIDS benefit was another concert! Forgive my old memory--I think you are right.

Yup, you're talking about the "Amnesty" tour (Springsteen, Sting, Peter Gabriel, Tracy Chapman, Youssou N'Dour). Bruce continued on the road with that immediately after the conclusion of the "Tunnel of Love Express" tour.

purplethunder3121 said:

Timmy84 said:

Ha, that's it!

Yup! That is exactly how I remember them on stage!

I would've been eager to check out her Tunnel of Love, too. I've always found her incredibly sexy.

Ace said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Yup! That is exactly how I remember them on stage!

I would've been eager to check out her Tunnel of Love, too. I've always found her incredibly sexy.

Yeah she's gorgeous.

Ace said:

purplethunder3121 said:

I thought it was an AIDS benefit show but you may be right that it was for Amnesty International--it was so freaking long ago...I can't remember. Maybe the AIDS benefit was another concert! Forgive my old memory--I think you are right.

Yup, you're talking about the "Amnesty" tour (Springsteen, Sting, Peter Gabriel, Tracy Chapman, Youssou N'Dour). Bruce continued on the road with that immediately after the conclusion of the "Tunnel of Love Express" tour.

Yup, that's the one I went to. Thanks for the reminder to my spotty memory. I do remember being pissed off because Sting didn't show up. But Peter Gabriel's performance was off the chain! I wanted more! Also, because Sting didn't show up, Bruce performed a longer set and he didn't want to leave the stage! We got Bruce way past the time he was scheduled to perform.

[Edited 1/21/12 18:38pm]

Ace said:

imago said:

I am going to simultaneously shit twinkies and a gold brick.

I FUCKING LOVE BRUCE>

LOVE

I love Bruce, too. I've been a hardcore (and, for a time, obsessive) fan of his since I was a kid. But my favourite era of his work was '82 - '02. There are songs that I love outside of that bracket and I'm sure there'll be some on the new record, but I personally prefer when his writing is less about world politics and more about the politics of navigating this world.

Oh, Ace, I don't care about all that stuff

But after seeing the photo of your rock hard ass, I'm just going to believe whatever you say, lawd. ~faints~

imago said:

Ace said:

I love Bruce, too. I've been a hardcore (and, for a time, obsessive) fan of his since I was a kid. But my favourite era of his work was '82 - '02. There are songs that I love outside of that bracket and I'm sure there'll be some on the new record, but I personally prefer when his writing is less about world politics and more about the politics of navigating this world.

Oh, Ace, I don't care about all that stuff

But after seeing the photo of your rock hard ass, I'm just going to believe whatever you say, lawd. ~faints~

Ace said:

My belief is that writers almost always get better as they age. But I also believe in what Paul Simon said (that you only have a certain store of melody in you and that that tends to get used up in your younger days). Springsteen is fully capable of writing his best work ever now, but he's too worried about placating the nostalgia buffs in his audience (and they are legion).

Hi Ace, nice to see you again.

I’m pretty dubious that writers (or anyone else) improve with age. Most studies I’ve seen show that people generally hit their peak performance in their late thirties and early fourties. That’s where we’ve accumulated enough experience and education to achieve a degree of expertise but before cognitive decline begins to set in. A very recent study published in the BMJ shows that cognitive decline starts as early as 45.

http://www.bmj.com/conten.../bmj.d7622

A recent study specific to surgeons showed that they peak in performance from age 35-50.

http://medicalxpress.com/...afest.html

While some studies that show that creative and artistic endeavors help minimize the decline (along with exercise, continuous learning, decent diet & other good stuff), and there's always a spectrum of effect (from barely noticeable to great impact) the effect is still real and should generally result in peak performance in the late thirties/early forties followed by a decline in quality of output. That doesn’t mean that a person can’t still display a level of talent or expertise that would reflect their accumulated knowledge & experience, of course, but I think we should expect to see diminishing returns.

[Edited 1/22/12 8:44am]

damosuzuki said:

Ace said:

Hi Ace, nice to see you again.

I’m pretty dubious that writers (or anyone else) improve with age. Most studies I’ve seen show that people generally hit their peak performance in their late thirties and early fourties. That’s where we’ve accumulated enough experience and education to achieve a degree of expertise but before cognitive decline begins to set in. A very recent study published in the BMJ shows that cognitive decline starts as early as 45.

http://www.bmj.com/conten.../bmj.d7622

Results All cognitive scores, except vocabulary, declined in all five age categories (age 45-49, 50-54, 55-59, 60-64, and 65-70 at baseline), with evidence of faster decline in older people. In men, the 10 year decline, shown as change/range of test×100, in reasoning was −3.6% (95% confidence interval −4.1% to −3.0%) in those aged 45-49 at baseline and −9.6% (−10.6% to −8.6%) in those aged 65-70.

A recent study specific to surgeons showed that thyroid surgeons peak in performance from age 35-50.

http://medicalxpress.com/...afest.html

While some studies that show that creative and artistic endeavors help minimize the decline (along with exercise, continuous learning, decent diet & other good stuff), and there's always a spectrum of effect (from barely noticeable to great impact) the effect is still real and should generally result in peak performance in the late thirties/early forties followed by a decline in quality of output. That doesn’t mean that an person can’t still display a level of talent or expertise that would reflect their accumulated talent & experience, of course, but I think we should expect to see diminishing returns.

damo!

I have no doubt that writers improve with age; it's a wisdom thing. I would think that a lot of the cognitive decline noted in the studies you cite has more to do with memory than anything else, no?

All I know is that (as the old cliche goes), "With age comes wisdom". Wisdom is a good thing for a writer, wouldn't you say? Can you think of any writers who got worse with age?

Ace said:

damosuzuki said:

damo!

I have no doubt that writers improve with age; it's a wisdom thing. I would think that a lot of the cognitive decline noted in the studies you cite has more to do with memory than anything else, no?

All I know is that (as the old cliche goes), "With age comes wisdom". Wisdom is a good thing for a writer, wouldn't you say? Can you think of any writers who got worse with age?

Memory loss is part of it, but there's loss in mental function in reasoning and verbal fluency as well, which would impact the output of a writer I feel. I'm just going to do a copy/past from the BMJ article below, since I'm sure I'd just mangle it if I tried to put it into my own words.

The figure⇓ presents estimates of cognitive decline, expressed as percent change (change/range of test×100) over the 10 year follow-up period using three waves of data (results using the original scale for the tests are shown in supplementary table B on bmj.com). There was some evidence of greater decline at older ages and of a linear trend in decline with increasing age for some of the tests, particularly in men (fig 1 and table B on bmj.com). For example, in men aged 45-49 at baseline, 10 year decline in reasoning was −3.6% (95% confidence interval −4.1% to −3.0%) while in those aged 65-70 it was −9.6% (−10.6% to −8.6%). In women, the corresponding decline was −3.6% (−4.6% to −2.7%) in those aged 45-49 and −7.4% (−9.1% to −5.7%) in those aged 65-70. The results for all tests, except vocabulary, showed significant declines in all age categories in both men and women as the confidence intervals did not include zero.

[Edited 1/22/12 10:34am]

Ace said:

damosuzuki said:

damo!

I have no doubt that writers improve with age; it's a wisdom thing. I would think that a lot of the cognitive decline noted in the studies you cite has more to do with memory than anything else, no?

All I know is that (as the old cliche goes), "With age comes wisdom". Wisdom is a good thing for a writer, wouldn't you say? Can you think of any writers who got worse with age?

Well again like anything else it's "subjective", some people think Purple Rain is Prince's greatest thing ever and some do not, some feel he was at an artistic high with One Nite Alone, which i agree with, i watched him on stage during that tour and that was not the "musician" in the 80's he was 100 times better. Thats not to say artists dont have a patch of work that just isnt what we feel is their best and we feel stinks or that they are "phoning it in" but without knowing them or being them we cant judge what makes them tick so to speak. ALL i do know is that alot of people dismiss everything an artist does later in life because they hold it up to something in their own glory days as the bar. And quite frankly you cant re-create that feeling you had 20 years ago, its not healthy actually.

It is a trade-off. For what we gain as we age, we lose something. We have more knowledge and experiemce as we grow older (well, most of us ) but our energy, passion . and inspiration slows down (or disappears altogether). Only a lucky few possess the best of both until they die.

lastdecember said:

Ace said:

damo!

I have no doubt that writers improve with age; it's a wisdom thing. I would think that a lot of the cognitive decline noted in the studies you cite has more to do with memory than anything else, no?

All I know is that (as the old cliche goes), "With age comes wisdom". Wisdom is a good thing for a writer, wouldn't you say? Can you think of any writers who got worse with age?

Well again like anything else it's "subjective", some people think Purple Rain is Prince's greatest thing ever and some do not, some feel he was at an artistic high with One Nite Alone, which i agree with, i watched him on stage during that tour and that was not the "musician" in the 80's he was 100 times better. Thats not to say artists dont have a patch of work that just isnt what we feel is their best and we feel stinks or that they are "phoning it in" but without knowing them or being them we cant judge what makes them tick so to speak. ALL i do know is that alot of people dismiss everything an artist does later in life because they hold it up to something in their own glory days as the bar. And quite frankly you cant re-create that feeling you had 20 years ago, its not healthy actually.

I agree - it's not healthy.

I can think of some songwriters where I feel that their best music is in their past, but I can't think of any where I feel that their best insights are behind them.

As with anything else creative, songwriting inspiration doesn't come around consistently (as Leonard Cohen said, "If I knew where good songs come from, I'd go there more often"). In an ideal world, these dudes and dudettes wouldn't put anything out until they felt they had something worthwhile to say (and/or some great music). But they seem to feel they have to crank out a product every few years or their careers will go down the tubes. Whatever.

Springsteen's written a great song as recently as a few years ago and I have no doubt that he has lots more worthwhile things up his sleeve. "We Take Care of Our Own" isn't his best work (although it's lyrically interesting), but even cowgirls get the blues.

^^^ That was a great book.

purplethunder3121 said:

^^^ That was a great book.

I never read it (or saw the movie). I just like the title!