This may not be the right forum for this--but the thought struck me today about people who negatively judge the singing voices and musical efforts of other singers/musicians when they couldn't ever sing or play a note on key themselves! How can anyone with an off-key voice and a tin ear really judge, even subjectively, how "good" someone else's music is?! I know, these days, when my voice cracks or hits a wrong note on songs I used to sing very well twenty years ago... But how do people, like some of my friends, who never could hit a single note right in their lives because of "tone deafness" really judge music by any standard? If you can't match a right note with your voice or an instrument, how do you know if another person does so? I'm scratching my head over this one. I have a friend who has been tone deaf since birth and could never sing (EVER! LOL) and yet he thinks that he knows good music from bad. I don't get it. I'm not talking about people who could sing at one time (Say Whitney Huston) or play an instrument--I'm talking about those who couldn't hit a right note if their lives ever depended on it! What do ya'll think?!

Number 1, people judge all day long. It's a natural human activity and it's fun. Number 2, good singing is good singing. I can't sing for shit, but I will happily tell you Katy Perry, Kesha and Trey "Goat Boy" Songz can't sing for shit. Now, Judge me.

If you don't know how to act, how can you rate someone as a "good" or "bad" actor? If you can't cook, how can you know if food tastes good?

scriptgirl said:

Number 1, people judge all day long. It's a natural human activity and it's fun. Number 2, good singing is good singing. I can't sing for shit, but I will happily tell you Katy Perry, Kesha and Trey "Goat Boy" Songz can't sing for shit. Now, Judge me.

My question isn't a judgement call but a real question that I would like to know an answer to. I'm not judging anyone's singing ability. My voice sucks these days. My question is--how can someone hear notes that are off-key in other singers and not be able to hear it in their own voices when they hear themselves sing and then correct it to the right notes, etc.? If someone can't hear themselves hitting wrong notes just HOW CAN THEY CORRECTLY HEAR AND INTERPRET WHEN OTHERS HIT THE RIGHT NOTES?! I've always wondered about this. I've never read anything on this subject in my life but I have always wondered about it. No judgement calls at all when I can happily say that I suck! But I know the difference--I can hear it and correct it with my own voice. What I wonder about is how can people be able to hear wrong notes in the voices of other people but not in their own voices OR musical instrumentation and correct it to the right notes (even if the end result isn't what they want LOL). I'd really like to know. BTW I can hit the right notes but my voice isn't what it used to be--even WHEN I hit the right notes!

[Edited 1/7/12 18:47pm]

I've never watched American Idol but I always wondered if it was some kind of "joke" that Paula Abdul and J-Lo were judges some kind of inside joke by the producers of that show?

purplethunder3121 said:

This may not be the right forum for this--but the thought struck me today about people who negatively judge the singing voices and musical efforts of other singers/musicians when they couldn't ever sing or play a note on key themselves! How can anyone with an off-key voice and a tin ear really judge, even subjectively, how "good" someone else's music is?! I know, these days, when my voice cracks or hits a wrong note on songs I used to sing very well twenty years ago... But how do people, like some of my friends, who never could hit a single note right in their lives because of "tone deafness" really judge music by any standard? If you can't match a right note with your voice or an instrument, how do you know if another person does so? I'm scratching my head over this one. I have a friend who has been tone deaf since birth and could never sing (EVER! LOL) and yet he thinks that he knows good music from bad. I don't get it. I'm not talking about people who could sing at one time (Say Whitney Huston) or play an instrument--I'm talking about those who couldn't hit a right note if their lives ever depended on it! What do ya'll think?!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but in my case, I'm not a terribly good singer but I'm well aware of it. I can hear when I'm off key (which is honestly...most of the time) and I can also hear when others are off key. I just don't know what to do to correct it. Now, if you're talking about people who sing off key and don't realize it but still try to judge others, that I can completely understand being frustrated with. I've had a fair amount of musical training in my life, but none of it was voice -- it was all instruments and some theory. That's probably why I learned to distinguish what's on key from what's off key without ever learning how to fix it in my voice. I always like to say that I know just enough about music to be dissatisfied with the sounds that come out of my own mouth.

SoulAlive said:

I've never watched American Idol but I always wondered if it was some kind of "joke" that Paula Abdul and J-Lo were judges some kind of inside joke by the producers of that show?

I think it's the equivilent of those big fat morning radio DJ's hosting and judging bikini and Hot Body contests.

Arbwyth said:

purplethunder3121 said:

This may not be the right forum for this--but the thought struck me today about people who negatively judge the singing voices and musical efforts of other singers/musicians when they couldn't ever sing or play a note on key themselves! How can anyone with an off-key voice and a tin ear really judge, even subjectively, how "good" someone else's music is?! I know, these days, when my voice cracks or hits a wrong note on songs I used to sing very well twenty years ago... But how do people, like some of my friends, who never could hit a single note right in their lives because of "tone deafness" really judge music by any standard? If you can't match a right note with your voice or an instrument, how do you know if another person does so? I'm scratching my head over this one. I have a friend who has been tone deaf since birth and could never sing (EVER! LOL) and yet he thinks that he knows good music from bad. I don't get it. I'm not talking about people who could sing at one time (Say Whitney Huston) or play an instrument--I'm talking about those who couldn't hit a right note if their lives ever depended on it! What do ya'll think?!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but in my case, I'm not a terribly good singer but I'm well aware of it. I can hear when I'm off key (which is honestly...most of the time) and I can also hear when others are off key. I just don't know what to do to correct it. Now, if you're talking about people who sing off key and don't realize it but still try to judge others, that I can completely understand being frustrated with. I've had a fair amount of musical training in my life, but none of it was voice -- it was all instruments and some theory. That's probably why I learned to distinguish what's on key from what's off key without ever learning how to fix it in my voice. I always like to say that I know just enough about music to be dissatisfied with the sounds that come out of my own mouth.

I think you came closest to understanding which, for me, was an earnest question I have wondered about my entire life but never had the guts to ask anyone. I also asked my very off-key-for life friend the same question tonight for the first time and he had an answer similar to your's, even though he has never played an instrument. He says that for his entire life he has been able to hear other voices on-key and has known when he is off-key but has been unable to correct it to the right note--even in a music class.

It may sound like a naive question...but it is one I have never asked anyone before but always wondered about. But, I guess it makes sense for a lot of folks (and I guess is frustrating as hell) when you can differentiate the right notes on a scale but be unable to hit those exact notes on-key with your own voice. My friend agrees like you though, that the most frustrating people are the ones who sing or play instruments off-key and think that they are singing or playing the exact notes that they intend to--and won't listen to their friends who tell them otherwise.

Because it's not hard to hear. It's just like what Mickey said. How can you judge what tastes good if you are not a good cook yourself?

People oftain complain that some singer is "off key" when they simply don't like the way a singer adds expression to his / her vocal delivery. People use that expression improperly and that seems to be the case especially with Youtube comments and so on. The truth is that most singers are "off key" when singing complex patterns or using vibrato. The human voice just behaves in that manner. What really determines whether or not a singer is "on key" - or, that he / she hits the notes on a twelve-note scale appropriately - is really just the the beginning ("attack") of each sung note and the notes that are emphasized and accentuated during longer patterns of notes. Being perfectly in tune would sound terribly boring though. The closest thing to that would be test tones and they have very little musical appeal.

Most of those people that sing in front of their webcams on youtube have serious problems hitting the right notes. Most people are not just very good singers and don't know how to control their voices. It's another thing why so many seem to be also in denial about it.

[Edited 1/8/12 2:43am]

novabrkr said:

Because it's not hard to hear. It's just like what Mickey said. How can you judge what tastes good if you are not a good cook yourself?

People oftain complain that some singer is "off key" when they simply don't like the way a singer adds expression to his / her vocal delivery. People use that expression improperly and that seems to be the case especially with Youtube comments and so on. The truth is that most singers are "off key" when singing complex patterns or using vibrato. The human voice just behaves in that manner. What really determines whether or not a singer is "on key" - or, that he / she hits the notes on a twelve-note scale appropriately - is really just the the beginning ("attack") of each sung note and the notes that are emphasized and accentuated during longer patterns of notes. Being perfectly in tune would sound terribly boring though. The closest thing to that would be test tones and they have very little musical appeal.

Most of those people that sing in front of their webcams on youtube have serious problems hitting the right notes. Most people are not just very good singers and don't know how to control their voices. It's another thing why so many seem to be also in denial about it.

[Edited 1/8/12 2:43am]

Very thoughtful and knowledgable reply. Thanks for your input.

I think most people can hear when someones pitchy. Humans have very, very subtle perception of pitch. If you detune a guitar string by the smallest amount, most humans would be able to tell when you compare it to the original pitch.

I sing in a band and can hear when I'm pitchy, but it's def much easier to hear when you're playing back a recording of yourself. Something about hearing yourself live, inside your own head while you're singing can be deceptive at times. Probably depending on ambient noise in the environment and how well you can monitor yourself.

And then, most importantly, the vast majority of people can't control their voice pitch very well. They just haven't had the practice and/or training to do it. But I don't see why that would mean they can't HEAR when someone else is pitchy.

BECAUSE we have the TV that WE DESERVE

if we all turned off the tv, media corporations would react, offering "quality" tv all over again...

It's Endemol and the Dutch.

They are fucking up the world bigtime.

All about the money..the dum dum dada dum dum..

I don't think it's funny..

LOL

purplethunder3121 said:

This may not be the right forum for this--but the thought struck me today about people who negatively judge the singing voices and musical efforts of other singers/musicians when they couldn't ever sing or play a note on key themselves! How can anyone with an off-key voice and a tin ear really judge, even subjectively, how "good" someone else's music is?! I know, these days, when my voice cracks or hits a wrong note on songs I used to sing very well twenty years ago... But how do people, like some of my friends, who never could hit a single note right in their lives because of "tone deafness" really judge music by any standard? If you can't match a right note with your voice or an instrument, how do you know if another person does so? I'm scratching my head over this one. I have a friend who has been tone deaf since birth and could never sing (EVER! LOL) and yet he thinks that he knows good music from bad. I don't get it. I'm not talking about people who could sing at one time (Say Whitney Huston) or play an instrument--I'm talking about those who couldn't hit a right note if their lives ever depended on it! What do ya'll think?!

Well for one thing, most people can hear a lot better than they can sing.

I can't sing very well but I do it all the time because I like to sing. Notice that your own voice sounds different to you inside of your head than it does when you hear it played back to you on a recording.

The first time I heard my own voice on a recording I didn't even recognize that it was me...

Scriptgirl's the only argument in this entire thread that's sound:

you don't have to be able to perform the very thing you're criticizing

in order to criticize it.

I can't bake to save my life; but I can tell you when a German chocolate

cake tastes like shit. Obviously, you have to know what the norms are of

the particular thing being criticized and you must also be able to cogently

substantiate your claims.

But you don't have to be able to sing on key in order to tell someone

their singing is either "good" or "bad" or "so-so."

SoulAlive said:

I've never watched American Idol but I always wondered if it was some kind of "joke" that Paula Abdul and J-Lo were judges some kind of inside joke by the producers of that show?

especially that one

So after a bit of head scratching I went poking around on the web to investigate how we hear stuff...sort of related to the topic a little bit...I think,

http://www.thenakedscient...tion/1581/

There’s nothing worse than hearing a recording of your voice for the first time! The reason is that how we think we sound isn’t really how we sound.

Inside your ears there is an organ called a cochlea, a special neurological structure that converts the vibrations of sounds in the air into electrical signals that the brain can understand. It gets stimulated by the pressure waves caused by sounds in the air, but at the same time can pick up the vibration of the bones in your skull.

When you are listening to sounds in the environment, the chief source of those sounds is coming through the air, very little comes through the bone. When you’re speaking, however, your whole head resonates; it vibrates. This means that your cochlea gets stimulated by your skull vibrating, as well as the sound coming out of your mouth and going through the air to your ears.

The body does two things; it gets a different version of those vibrations (through the bone and the ear), but it also has a protective mechanism to cut down the amount of sound which is going into the cochlea. It reduces sensitivity of your ear a little when you’re speaking, so you get a slightly different rendition of what your voice sounds like.

That’s why, when you hear yourself recorded and played back, you sound totally different, because all you hear back from the tape recorder is sound coming through the air, minus the skull vibration and bone conduction.

duccichucka said:

Scriptgirl's the only argument in this entire thread that's sound:

you don't have to be able to perform the very thing you're criticizing

in order to criticize it.

I can't bake to save my life; but I can tell you when a German chocolate

cake tastes like shit. Obviously, you have to know what the norms are of

the particular thing being criticized and you must also be able to cogently

substantiate your claims.

But you don't have to be able to sing on key in order to tell someone

their singing is either "good" or "bad" or "so-so."

I liked Nova and Mickey's answers too.

SoulAlive said:

I've never watched American Idol but I always wondered if it was some kind of "joke" that Paula Abdul and J-Lo were judges some kind of inside joke by the producers of that show?

Basically, those of you calling into question the validity of criticisms leveled

by those you deem unworthy of doing so, are hypocrites and short sighted.

Why?

1. On a personal level, you judge music every time you hear it (it's either good,

bad, or so-so) but I'm willing to bet that most music listeners do not have a

formidable grasp of the intricacies of musicianship and music theory.

2. Per the logic offered in this thread, in order to judge those you think are unworthy

of judgment or criticism, you too must be well equipped, versed and qualified to

make these criticisms. But judging by the fallacious arguments presented in this

thread, none of you seem qualified to tell someone that they can't judge those who

judge those who sing off key!

Paula Abdul and Jennifer Lopez aren't talented singers and I would never ask them

to sing anything for me. But that has nothing to do with how they perceive what good

singing, bad singing or so-so singing is and whether or not they understand the

normative values attached to singing and can substantiate those claims.

Again, we do it everyday in the shower: I sound like a cat being gutted when I

sing. But I know that Aretha Franklin and Luther Vandross are better than Paula

Abdul and Tom Waits.

Quit yer bellyachin'!

duccichucka said:

Basically, those of you calling into question the validity of criticisms leveled

by those you deem unworthy of doing so, are hypocrites and short sighted.

Why?

1. On a personal level, you judge music every time you hear it (it's either good,

bad, or so-so) but I'm willing to bet that most music listeners do not have a

formidable grasp of the intricacies of musicianship and music theory.

2. Per the logic offered in this thread, in order to judge those you think are unworthy

of judgment or criticism, you too must be well equipped, versed and qualified to

make these criticisms. But judging by the fallacious arguments presented in this

thread, none of you seem qualified to tell someone that they can't judge those who

judge those who sing off key!

Paula Abdul and Jennifer Lopez aren't talented singers and I would never ask them

to sing anything for me. But that has nothing to do with how they perceive what good

singing, bad singing or so-so singing is and whether or not they understand the

normative values attached to singing and can substantiate those claims.

Again, we do it everyday in the shower: I sound like a cat being gutted when I

sing. But I know that Aretha Franklin and Luther Vandross are better than Paula

Abdul and Tom Waits.

Quit yer bellyachin'!

Wll its like this with anything, i mean take sports we judge how a player plays the game and yet we have no potiential to being on that field ourselves. Or a beauty or fashion competition being judged by someone who would never get in one themselves. So someone who cant sing judging a singing contest is no different, Jlo and Paula are at least in the game, i mean its not like someone that has no idea of singing or the business or going out for parts etc... and let them judge, kind of like how AI lets the public judge, should they be allowed to vote?

I agree with script and ducci. We judge people all day every day no matter what they do. It's human nature unfortunately.

I just rather not watch it but whatever lol

It is true that we all judge other people and that it is human nature. But ridiculing someone on American Idol is not the same as making fun of a kid who sings off-key in your chorus class. Which I never did. But I'm posing a sincere question I used to wonder about when I was a kid singing in that chorus class and later in other singing groups when I got older where people are supposed to sing in harmony (I was always an alto but wanted to be soprano ). There is always that one person who can never alter their voice to match the notes they should hit on the musical scale--even though some can hear the difference and others can't. I just always wondered why. I know it is a naive type question but it is one that I never asked anyone. Especially those who thought they were hitting the right notes but were not.