namepeace said:

duccichucka said:

The ironic thing, in my opinion, is that Hunt, if he wanted, could

easily ascend to the very same pop-life heavens that Prince did.

I hold this because I think Hunt is a better musician and songwriter

than Prince who is capable of crafting awesome pop tunes: Dust,

At The End of A Slow Dance, Being A Girl, Character, etc. enabling him

to be a superstar, so to speak. But Hunt is more interested in the

craft than in being a star.

But Hunt is Hunt - a comparison between the two is mostly lazy

musical scholarship anyways. They are two different moons that

orbit the same planet.

I

For reasons explained above, I disagree that Van could have achieved the success Prince did in a prior generation.

Van had more disadvantages than Prince, not the least of which was that certain acts before Prince provided a more recent frame of reference for the mass audiences.

Prince began his career relatively close on the heels of the acts to which he was compared -- Sly, Stevie, Jimi, et cetera. Those acts had broad commercial and artistic success. Prince was ripe for the time: his music had echoes of those stars, and he blended the funk, r&b, new wave, disco, and rock sounds that had been popular in his day (late 70's-early 80's) and distilled them into a hot product.

Van did not have that luxury, and I think it hurt him. He debuted when mass audiences were looking for the next Nirvana, Tupac, Biggie, etc. He wasn't "ripe" for his time, in terms of achieving mass success. I think he could do so but he'd sound decidedly different.

I will say this though -- if they had switched places, this site may have been called "Van.org"

I disagree with ya, namepeace, but allow me to clarify:

Me saying that Hunt could have achieved popularity and success relative

to Prince's experiences in the 80s has more to do with songwriting and radio

than anything else. Clearly Hunt is not concerned with being a superstar like

Prince was. Prince seemed to have been consumed by it; Hunt seems to rest

easy at night sleeping in the margins.

As far as having smash hits on the radio (modern radio itself being another aspect

of Hunt's musical career that makes his case most unfortunate), Hunt could have

been Prince's equal. But I think even today; with the death of radio, Hunt could

achieve a level of superstardom akin to Prince if he would just sell the fuck out

like Prince.

Yes, Girls & Boys, Prince is a sell out.

There's nothing wrong with Prince selling out: he had the chops and the

talent and the songwriting ability to craft songs specifically for the populace.

Prince is remarkable in that he was able to craft these popular songs that

were so quirky and original. So, where maybe Prince is writing tunes so that he

can become a star, and thereby crafting them for mass consumption, Hunt is

writing tunes because his creativity must have an out. Think about it: I bet Prince

would be more satisfied writing serious music similar to N.E.W.S. but you cannot

become a megastar doing that. I mean, we are at the Prince message board

and not at Keith Jarrett's.

I think Hunt is just as quirky and original as Prince is. I mean "Dust" is just as

catchy as anything Prince ever wrote. And if Hunt was to assemble a record

full of catchy singles a la Purple Rain, I think he would reap popularity benefits

reminiscent of Prince. They have two different sets of desires though, and it

seems that Hunt does not care about megastardom as much as Prince did.

Prince sold out. But he did it authentically.

Hunt is Arthur Lee/Shuggie Otis to Prince's Sly Stone. Superstardom and

popularity, what this fucking retarded society and generation seems to get

wet for, is actually not for everybody. That is what is so refreshing about

Hunt's oeuvre. And I think that the heat Hunt faces here when mentioned

in the same breath with Prince is only because it is considered sacrilegous

to place another with him. Fangirls & boys are silly....

I say all of that to say:

Van Hunt is not as popular as Prince only because:

1. Modern radio/music industry makes achieving a simulacrum of 80s radio/music

industry Prince success impossible.

2. Van Hunt does not set out to be as popular as Prince.

I really do dislike making comparisons between the two, and I understand the

medium in which I make this statement, but Van Hunt is a much more interesting

songwriter and musician than Prince. Prince is definitely a better entertainer,

but if I wanted the best from each, I would choose to hear the best of Hunt first.

Um - no. Prince is Prince. NO ONE will top that. Just like Mike is Mike, Jimi is Jimi, Stevie is Stevie, etc.

duccichucka said:

namepeace said:

For reasons explained above, I disagree that Van could have achieved the success Prince did in a prior generation.

Van had more disadvantages than Prince, not the least of which was that certain acts before Prince provided a more recent frame of reference for the mass audiences.

Prince began his career relatively close on the heels of the acts to which he was compared -- Sly, Stevie, Jimi, et cetera. Those acts had broad commercial and artistic success. Prince was ripe for the time: his music had echoes of those stars, and he blended the funk, r&b, new wave, disco, and rock sounds that had been popular in his day (late 70's-early 80's) and distilled them into a hot product.

Van did not have that luxury, and I think it hurt him. He debuted when mass audiences were looking for the next Nirvana, Tupac, Biggie, etc. He wasn't "ripe" for his time, in terms of achieving mass success. I think he could do so but he'd sound decidedly different.

I will say this though -- if they had switched places, this site may have been called "Van.org"

I disagree with ya, namepeace, but allow me to clarify:

Me saying that Hunt could have achieved popularity and success relative

to Prince's experiences in the 80s has more to do with songwriting and radio

than anything else. Clearly Hunt is not concerned with being a superstar like

Prince was. Prince seemed to have been consumed by it; Hunt seems to rest

easy at night sleeping in the margins.

As far as having smash hits on the radio (modern radio itself being another aspect

of Hunt's musical career that makes his case most unfortunate), Hunt could have

been Prince's equal. But I think even today; with the death of radio, Hunt could

achieve a level of superstardom akin to Prince if he would just sell the fuck out

like Prince.

Yes, Girls & Boys, Prince is a sell out.

There's nothing wrong with Prince selling out: he had the chops and the

talent and the songwriting ability to craft songs specifically for the populace.

Prince is remarkable in that he was able to craft these popular songs that

were so quirky and original. So, where maybe Prince is writing tunes so that he

can become a star, and thereby crafting them for mass consumption, Hunt is

writing tunes because his creativity must have an out. Think about it: I bet Prince

would be more satisfied writing serious music similar to N.E.W.S. but you cannot

become a megastar doing that. I mean, we are at the Prince message board

and not at Keith Jarrett's.

I think Hunt is just as quirky and original as Prince is. I mean "Dust" is just as

catchy as anything Prince ever wrote. And if Hunt was to assemble a record

full of catchy singles a la Purple Rain, I think he would reap popularity benefits

reminiscent of Prince. They have two different sets of desires though, and it

seems that Hunt does not care about megastardom as much as Prince did.

Prince sold out. But he did it authentically.

Hunt is Arthur Lee/Shuggie Otis to Prince's Sly Stone. Superstardom and

popularity, what this fucking retarded society and generation seems to get

wet for, is actually not for everybody. That is what is so refreshing about

Hunt's oeuvre. And I think that the heat Hunt faces here when mentioned

in the same breath with Prince is only because it is considered sacrilegous

to place another with him. Fangirls & boys are silly....

I say all of that to say:

Van Hunt is not as popular as Prince only because:

1. Modern radio/music industry makes achieving a simulacrum of 80s radio/music

industry Prince success impossible.

2. Van Hunt does not set out to be as popular as Prince.

I really do dislike making comparisons between the two, and I understand the

medium in which I make this statement, but Van Hunt is a much more interesting

songwriter and musician than Prince. Prince is definitely a better entertainer,

but if I wanted the best from each, I would choose to hear the best of Hunt first.

Your Shuggie/Sly allusion is most apt. You say a lot I agree with (as bolded). As much as many of us may not have consciously acknowledged Prince, WANTED to be a star. That much is clear. His genius was he dictated many if not most of the terms of his rise to stardom.

Van doesn't have that commercial ambition, but has every bit the creative ambition, if not more, than Prince did/does.

I understand the clarification, I guess my point was to sell out like Prince did, he'd have to sound very un-Van-like. And I agree, he has the ability to do that. But it would require him making records where his sound blends in with the masses. Prince's commercial soil was far more fertile than Van's is (or was). He had to detail his sound, not overhaul it like Van would have had to do.

Footnote -- a while back Van Hunt himself raised this Prince question on MySpace. It waged a fierce debate along the lines of the one you did. I weighed in, saying much the same thing you are saying, and Van sent me an e-mail personally to thank me for what I said.

namepeace said:

duccichucka said:

I disagree with ya, namepeace, but allow me to clarify:

Me saying that Hunt could have achieved popularity and success relative

to Prince's experiences in the 80s has more to do with songwriting and radio

than anything else. Clearly Hunt is not concerned with being a superstar like

Prince was. Prince seemed to have been consumed by it; Hunt seems to rest

easy at night sleeping in the margins.

As far as having smash hits on the radio (modern radio itself being another aspect

of Hunt's musical career that makes his case most unfortunate), Hunt could have

been Prince's equal. But I think even today; with the death of radio, Hunt could

achieve a level of superstardom akin to Prince if he would just sell the fuck out

like Prince.

Yes, Girls & Boys, Prince is a sell out.

There's nothing wrong with Prince selling out: he had the chops and the

talent and the songwriting ability to craft songs specifically for the populace.

Prince is remarkable in that he was able to craft these popular songs that

were so quirky and original. So, where maybe Prince is writing tunes so that he

can become a star, and thereby crafting them for mass consumption, Hunt is

writing tunes because his creativity must have an out. Think about it: I bet Prince

would be more satisfied writing serious music similar to N.E.W.S. but you cannot

become a megastar doing that. I mean, we are at the Prince message board

and not at Keith Jarrett's.

I think Hunt is just as quirky and original as Prince is. I mean "Dust" is just as

catchy as anything Prince ever wrote. And if Hunt was to assemble a record

full of catchy singles a la Purple Rain, I think he would reap popularity benefits

reminiscent of Prince. They have two different sets of desires though, and it

seems that Hunt does not care about megastardom as much as Prince did.

Prince sold out. But he did it authentically.

Hunt is Arthur Lee/Shuggie Otis to Prince's Sly Stone. Superstardom and

popularity, what this fucking retarded society and generation seems to get

wet for, is actually not for everybody. That is what is so refreshing about

Hunt's oeuvre. And I think that the heat Hunt faces here when mentioned

in the same breath with Prince is only because it is considered sacrilegous

to place another with him. Fangirls & boys are silly....

I say all of that to say:

Van Hunt is not as popular as Prince only because:

1. Modern radio/music industry makes achieving a simulacrum of 80s radio/music

industry Prince success impossible.

2. Van Hunt does not set out to be as popular as Prince.

I really do dislike making comparisons between the two, and I understand the

medium in which I make this statement, but Van Hunt is a much more interesting

songwriter and musician than Prince. Prince is definitely a better entertainer,

but if I wanted the best from each, I would choose to hear the best of Hunt first.

Your Shuggie/Sly allusion is most apt. You say a lot I agree with (as bolded). As much as many of us may not have consciously acknowledged Prince, WANTED to be a star. That much is clear. His genius was he dictated many if not most of the terms of his rise to stardom.

Van doesn't have that commercial ambition, but has every bit the creative ambition, if not more, than Prince did/does.

I understand the clarification, I guess my point was to sell out like Prince did, he'd have to sound very un-Van-like. And I agree, he has the ability to do that. But it would require him making records where his sound blends in with the masses. Prince's commercial soil was far more fertile than Van's is (or was). He had to detail his sound, not overhaul it like Van would have had to do.

Footnote -- a while back Van Hunt himself raised this Prince question on MySpace. It waged a fierce debate along the lines of the one you did. I weighed in, saying much the same thing you are saying, and Van sent me an e-mail personally to thank me for what I said.

Um, yeah - everything you said about Prince, Hunt and all of the above, I

agree with.

And that's really awesome that he communicated his appreciation to you;

defending Van Hunt here specifically, not that it needs to be done or was

asked of anyone, takes some balls.

Prince has had one huge advantage over Van Hunt; he had commercial success in his favor. Van Hunt has all of the musical wherewithall that Prince did/does but he doesn't have the commercial acceptance that allows one to freely experiment with their sound and not alienate their fan base.

The last time I saw Van,he did a gig where he reformatted his old songs to fit his new sound. The audience was NOT pleased. He was already playing at a small venue and about a third of the people had left by the end of his set. I think he learned from that gig that you can't change people to fit your art.
I'm sure he is plotting to go about conquering his audience in a different way for his next project (hopefully). The obstacles he faces are completely different than the ones Prince had to deal with and also image plays a part as well.
When you become a pop star (like Prince did), there are certain advantages you have, such as having instant access to a very large audience. When you come up through a certain genre, whether it be rock, R&B, or something else, you HAVE to have a better understanding of your base and you HAVE to keep them happy to a certain extent where it becomes a give-and-take process. You give them something and then you can take risks.

ATWIAD was the first time Prince alienated a large portion of his original fan base. It was a move he made after his huge success with PR. Lenny Kravitz started experimenting with his sound well into his career and has still kept a bit of his basic sound on every record. Even Prince had "Pop Life" and "Tambourine" on ATWIAD to at least attempt to appease the base. Van strayed completely away from his R&B base with WWYHF with nothing on it to appease them. While he certainly proved that he is capable of great musical feats, he forgot the commercial aspect of being an artist. If you want people to come to your shows and continue to support you, you HAVE to concede a bit and always give them SOMETHING. That said, I think he will go on to continue to make some great music. I wish him well. As far as being an heir - unless he is about to start rapping, there is no throne for him to inherit.

[Edited 12/30/11 14:15pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Prince has had one huge advantage over Van Hunt; he had commercial success in his favor. Van Hunt has all of the musical wherewithall that Prince did/does but he doesn't have the commercial acceptance that allows one to freely experiment with their sound and not alienate their fan base.

I think I agree with that; although I'd replace "commercial acceptance" with "savvy," not necessarily the creative type, but the type that flows from the ambition of a guy that wants to be a star..

The last time I saw Van,he did a gig where he reformatted his old songs to fit his new sound. The audience was NOT pleased. He was already playing at a small venue and about a third of the people had left by the end of his set. I think he learned from that gig that you can't change people to fit your art.

I just saw him in the fall and it did seem as if he tried to reformat the sound of old work, but the audience by and large stuck with him. It was still a small audience. He did have the sense to do a straightforward rendition of "Dust," which brought the house to its feet.

I'm sure he is plotting to go about conquering his audience in a different way for his next project (hopefully). The obstacles he faces are completely different than the ones Prince had to deal with and also image plays a part as well.

ABSOLUTELY.

When you become a pop star (like Prince did), there are certain advantages you have, such as having instant access to a very large audience. When you come up through a certain genre, whether it be rock, R&B, or something else, you HAVE to have a better understanding of your base and you HAVE to keep them happy to a certain extent where it becomes a give-and-take process. You give them something and then you can take risks.

Agreed. Maybe he thought his 1st two projects were the red meat to sate his audience.

ATWIAD was the first time Prince alienated a large portion of his original fan base. It was a move he made after his huge success with PR. Lenny Kravitz started experimenting with his sound well into his career and has still kept a bit of his basic sound on every record. Even Prince had "Pop Life" and "Tambourine" on ATWIAD to at least attempt to appease the base. Van strayed completely away from his R&B base with WWYHF with nothing on it to appease them. While he certainly proved that he is capable of great musical feats, he forgot the commercial aspect of being an artist. If you want people to come to your shows and continue to support you, you HAVE to concede a bit and always give them SOMETHING. That said, I think he will go on to continue to make some great music. I wish him well. As far as being an heir - unless he is about to start rapping, there is no throne for him to inherit.

I'll disagree slightly here: "Designer Jeans" was a play to his larger audience.

But I see what you're saying. For example, Me'Shell dropped Weather, which was not a real departure from Devil's Halo, but along the lines of what you're saying, dropped two tracks on Miguel Migs' album that were "music to the ears" of her larger audience.

[Edited 12/30/11 14:15pm]

namepeace said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Prince has had one huge advantage over Van Hunt; he had commercial success in his favor. Van Hunt has all of the musical wherewithall that Prince did/does but he doesn't have the commercial acceptance that allows one to freely experiment with their sound and not alienate their fan base.

I think I agree with that; although I'd replace "commercial acceptance" with "savvy," not necessarily the creative type, but the type that flows from the ambition of a guy that wants to be a star..

The last time I saw Van,he did a gig where he reformatted his old songs to fit his new sound. The audience was NOT pleased. He was already playing at a small venue and about a third of the people had left by the end of his set. I think he learned from that gig that you can't change people to fit your art.

I just saw him in the fall and it did seem as if he tried to reformat the sound of old work, but the audience by and large stuck with him. It was still a small audience. He did have the sense to do a straightforward rendition of "Dust," which brought the house to its feet.

I'm sure he is plotting to go about conquering his audience in a different way for his next project (hopefully). The obstacles he faces are completely different than the ones Prince had to deal with and also image plays a part as well.

ABSOLUTELY.

When you become a pop star (like Prince did), there are certain advantages you have, such as having instant access to a very large audience. When you come up through a certain genre, whether it be rock, R&B, or something else, you HAVE to have a better understanding of your base and you HAVE to keep them happy to a certain extent where it becomes a give-and-take process. You give them something and then you can take risks.

Agreed. Maybe he thought his 1st two projects were the red meat to sate his audience.

ATWIAD was the first time Prince alienated a large portion of his original fan base. It was a move he made after his huge success with PR. Lenny Kravitz started experimenting with his sound well into his career and has still kept a bit of his basic sound on every record. Even Prince had "Pop Life" and "Tambourine" on ATWIAD to at least attempt to appease the base. Van strayed completely away from his R&B base with WWYHF with nothing on it to appease them. While he certainly proved that he is capable of great musical feats, he forgot the commercial aspect of being an artist. If you want people to come to your shows and continue to support you, you HAVE to concede a bit and always give them SOMETHING. That said, I think he will go on to continue to make some great music. I wish him well. As far as being an heir - unless he is about to start rapping, there is no throne for him to inherit.

I'll disagree slightly here: "Designer Jeans" was a play to his larger audience.

But I see what you're saying. For example, Me'Shell dropped Weather, which was not a real departure from Devil's Halo, but along the lines of what you're saying, dropped two tracks on Miguel Migs' album that were "music to the ears" of her larger audience.

[Edited 12/30/11 14:15pm]

I guess it is natural since we are on a Prince fan site but when you mentioned "Designer Jeans" I thought that it was a reference to "Lady Cab Driver" (this is for whoever taught you how to kiss in designer jeans).

I still haven't heard Van's new album but it is on my to buy pile.

namepeace said:

AlexdeParis said:

namepeace said:

Footnote -- a while back Van Hunt himself raised this Prince question on MySpace. It waged a fierce debate along the lines of the one you did. I weighed in, saying much the same thing you are saying, and Van sent me an e-mail personally to thank me for what I said.

If we're talking about the same thing, Van's post was a response to the thread here about 3 years ago when Popular was supposed to come out: http://prince.org/msg/8/256997 Good times, good times...

Interesting, but I think the MySpace blog post he did referenced this, and I think I posted on both but I don't know; I know I posted on MySpace but mebbe not on the Org.

***Nope, I didn't. Prolly wanted to avoid the flame wars.

[Edited 12/30/11 15:16pm]

Somewhat off topic but I just found a used copy of On the Jungle Floor for two bucks. I'm a bit late but soon I'll finally be able to give it a listen. I quite liked his first album but after that I kind of lost track of him a bit.

rialb said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Prince has had one huge advantage over Van Hunt; he had commercial success in his favor. Van Hunt has all of the musical wherewithall that Prince did/does but he doesn't have the commercial acceptance that allows one to freely experiment with their sound and not alienate their fan base.

[Edited 12/30/11 14:15pm]

BK, what are you talking about?!

Because Van Hunt doesn't have the commercial success that Prince did, he can

do exactly what you say he can't: experiment without fear of alienating his

audience! He doesn't have fat cats stressing out about equaling the sales of

On The Jungle Floor with his new album simply because the sales of On The Jungle

Floor sucked (relatively and comparatively to Prince in the 80s). To put it

simply: Van Hunt doesn't have the fan base (or high label expectation) one needs

in order to release an experimental album that pisses them off.

Popular is hardly an accessible album meant for his Dust, At The End..., and Down

Here in Hell fans. If anything, Hunt's first two albums I am willing to bet, are going

to turn out to be his most accessible fan friendly records than the rest of the

remaining pieces of his opus. Van Hunt and On The Jungle Floor are experimental

whereby he's trying to make his music more massively palatable; he's trying to

gain some friends with those records. Popular and What Were You Hoping For?

are genuine and authentic Van Hunt albums; they are not experimental.

Read some interviews he's done recently: Van Hunt demos sound more like What

Were You Hoping For? cuts. It was the record labels that made him water down

his sound; Hunt had to tinker with or experiment with his original sound because

it was too risque for record label suits. He threw that grown & sexy sheen and

polish on his first two lps because of this.

Van Hunt is not of the Grown & Sexy ilk, guys.

.....

Anyways, I remember that Hunt/Prince's son thread and I found it amusing. I

thought Hunt was being disingenuous about how he came across the post comparing

him to Prince but I agreed with his sentiments: he's a musician first and foremost.

AlexdeParis said:

rialb said:

Somewhat off topic but I just found a used copy of On the Jungle Floor for two bucks. I'm a bit late but soon I'll finally be able to give it a listen. I quite liked his first album but after that I kind of lost track of him a bit.

It's my favorite. Enjoy!

...and when you grow up, let me know cos I'll hand you the big boy stuff:

Popular.

I'm kidding, Alexa!

duccichucka said:

BK, what are you talking about?!

Because Van Hunt doesn't have the commercial success that Prince did, he can

do exactly what you say he can't: experiment without fear of alienating his

audience! He doesn't have fat cats stressing out about equaling the sales of

On The Jungle Floor with his new album simply because the sales of On The Jungle

Floor sucked (relatively and comparatively to Prince in the 80s). To put it

simply: Van Hunt doesn't have the fan base (or high label expectation) one needs

in order to release an experimental album that pisses them off.

Popular is hardly an accessible album meant for his Dust, At The End..., and Down

Here in Hell fans. If anything, Hunt's first two albums I am willing to bet, are going

to turn out to be his most accessible fan friendly records than the rest of the

remaining pieces of his opus. Van Hunt and On The Jungle Floor are experimental

whereby he's trying to make his music more massively palatable; he's trying to

gain some friends with those records. Popular and What Were You Hoping For?

are genuine and authentic Van Hunt albums; they are not experimental.

Read some interviews he's done recently: Van Hunt demos sound more like What

Were You Hoping For? cuts. It was the record labels that made him water down

his sound; Hunt had to tinker with or experiment with his original sound because

it was too risque for record label suits. He threw that grown & sexy sheen and

polish on his first two lps because of this.

Van Hunt is not of the Grown & Sexy ilk, guys.

.....

Anyways, I remember that Hunt/Prince's son thread and I found it amusing. I

thought Hunt was being disingenuous about how he came across the post comparing

him to Prince but I agreed with his sentiments: he's a musician first and foremost.

Let me clarify. Prince built his fan base to capacity before he went pop. His fan base was solid on R&B radio, which was where you needed to have it back then. No, it was STRONG. He didn't stop pleasing his base until much, much later. Dirty Mind was experimental for the time but songs like "Head" weren't a musical deviation. HE was just being risque. He didn't jump out of the genre; he just pushed the walls of it.

Popular and WWYHF are genuine VH albums but they ARE experimental when you look at his fan base. HE came up through the R&B crowd and doesn't really have any R&B songs on WWYHF. None of my friends into any kind of alt-punk know who the fuck Van Hunt is. He DID NOT conquer that genre yet a lot of the songs on WWYHF have that "sound" to them. It is a sound that IS NEVER HEARD ON R&B RADIO. Now I KNOW you don't believe that R&B heads are into WWYHF, do you? I'm telling you, at his show, I could literally see his fan base dropping. So, if anything, he came through R&B insincerely (yes, I have heard some of his demo songs) and because he did that, he didn't realize that he had to keep on doing it and when he shifted back to what HE thought was regular Van Hunt mode, he didn't realize that his fan base wasn't into it.

As I said before, instead of using his own name, he should have just created a side project called something else and marketed it to the proper audience that would be receptive. If that became the norm for him, then he could have kept on doing it and if he should feel R&B again, he could still release CDs under Van Hunt for the R&B crowd and everyone would be happy. Now, he has shook his base and heads aren't gonna be checkin' for his next record until they hear it. But I agree completely with you in that VH's first two records will probably be his most fan-friendly records. The problem is that he has shown that he is willing to bastardize his familiarity by formatting those songs to fit his punk sound, so people actually have to question whether or not they want to see him live. It never fairs out well for artists who say "f*ck you, audience - you're gonna listen to me do this"

LOL@ that Van Hunt's son thread. That blew up!

Yeah, I think he was lurking here. I read that and was like "whuteva, negro" but I could see how he didn't want to fess up on browsing Prince.org. No other artist wants to get caught on somebody else's joint although WE KNOW there are a lot of celebs browsing under aliases. Most of them do it. D'Angelo is floating around here somewhere, too.

I haven't heard the new album yet but Popular does not sound like a radical departure from the sound of his first album.

BlaqueKnight said:

duccichucka said:

BK, what are you talking about?!

Because Van Hunt doesn't have the commercial success that Prince did, he can

do exactly what you say he can't: experiment without fear of alienating his

audience! He doesn't have fat cats stressing out about equaling the sales of

On The Jungle Floor with his new album simply because the sales of On The Jungle

Floor sucked (relatively and comparatively to Prince in the 80s). To put it

simply: Van Hunt doesn't have the fan base (or high label expectation) one needs

in order to release an experimental album that pisses them off.

Popular is hardly an accessible album meant for his Dust, At The End..., and Down

Here in Hell fans. If anything, Hunt's first two albums I am willing to bet, are going

to turn out to be his most accessible fan friendly records than the rest of the

remaining pieces of his opus. Van Hunt and On The Jungle Floor are experimental

whereby he's trying to make his music more massively palatable; he's trying to

gain some friends with those records. Popular and What Were You Hoping For?

are genuine and authentic Van Hunt albums; they are not experimental.

Read some interviews he's done recently: Van Hunt demos sound more like What

Were You Hoping For? cuts. It was the record labels that made him water down

his sound; Hunt had to tinker with or experiment with his original sound because

it was too risque for record label suits. He threw that grown & sexy sheen and

polish on his first two lps because of this.

Van Hunt is not of the Grown & Sexy ilk, guys.

.....

Anyways, I remember that Hunt/Prince's son thread and I found it amusing. I

thought Hunt was being disingenuous about how he came across the post comparing

him to Prince but I agreed with his sentiments: he's a musician first and foremost.

Let me clarify. Prince built his fan base to capacity before he went pop. His fan base was solid on R&B radio, which was where you needed to have it back then. No, it was STRONG. He didn't stop pleasing his base until much, much later. Dirty Mind was experimental for the time but songs like "Head" weren't a musical deviation. HE was just being risque. He didn't jump out of the genre; he just pushed the walls of it.

Popular and WWYHF are genuine VH albums but they ARE experimental when you look at his fan base. HE came up through the R&B crowd and doesn't really have any R&B songs on WWYHF. None of my friends into any kind of alt-punk know who the fuck Van Hunt is. He DID NOT conquer that genre yet a lot of the songs on WWYHF have that "sound" to them. It is a sound that IS NEVER HEARD ON R&B RADIO. Now I KNOW you don't believe that R&B heads are into WWYHF, do you? I'm telling you, at his show, I could literally see his fan base dropping. So, if anything, he came through R&B insincerely (yes, I have heard some of his demo songs) and because he did that, he didn't realize that he had to keep on doing it and when he shifted back to what HE thought was regular Van Hunt mode, he didn't realize that his fan base wasn't into it.

As I said before, instead of using his own name, he should have just created a side project called something else and marketed it to the proper audience that would be receptive. If that became the norm for him, then he could have kept on doing it and if he should feel R&B again, he could still release CDs under Van Hunt for the R&B crowd and everyone would be happy. Now, he has shook his base and heads aren't gonna be checkin' for his next record until they hear it. But I agree completely with you in that VH's first two records will probably be his most fan-friendly records. The problem is that he has shown that he is willing to bastardize his familiarity by formatting those songs to fit his punk sound, so people actually have to question whether or not they want to see him live. It never fairs out well for artists who say "f*ck you, audience - you're gonna listen to me do this"

LOL@ that Van Hunt's son thread. That blew up!

Yeah, I think he was lurking here. I read that and was like "whuteva, negro" but I could see how he didn't want to fess up on browsing Prince.org. No other artist wants to get caught on somebody else's joint although WE KNOW there are a lot of celebs browsing under aliases. Most of them do it. D'Angelo is floating around here somewhere, too.

See, I disagree with your assessment of when Prince went "pop." He's always been

"pop;" his stuff was written specifically to be played on the radio, whether it be

black or white radio, at the time. You can pull singles off of all of his albums and

place them on radio. Prince built his fanbase up to capacity, as you suggest, before

he began deviating from his established blueprinted sound; but even that album,

Around The World In A Day, has singles on it - accessible too! Prince is a pop musician

and there's nothing wrong with that - why?

So were the Beatles, the greatest band that ever lived.

You bring up some interesting points:you say you heard Hunt's early demos and

then state that you believe he came onto the scene "insincerely" - can you flesh

this argument out a bit further? I remember Hunt coming onto the scene with

that Farris tune and the Cree Summer/Kravitz ditty.

Anyways, I think you are on to something when you say that Hunt continues to

confuse his original fan base and I also think you are astute when you say that

musicians who say fuck the audience and force feeds them dont do well; but I'm

not sure that is entirely applicable to Hunt. I could be wrong...

I think a Van Hunt discussion will sadly always be about comparing him to Prince

and explaining why his musical adventurousness is unappreciated by listeners.

And the premise here now seems to be that Black fans mostly purchased his

first two albums and have now been deserted because of What Were You Hoping

For? which is rockier than anything Hunt's released in the past. Another premise

seems to be that if you are an intelligent and sophisticated black songwriter, you

better dumb your shit down for godawful urban/pop radio if you want to eat.

Overall, I think this is a much more complex discussion we are having here about

Van Hunt because it seems to ask the questions:

What, if anything, does a musician owe to his/her fans?

How are musicians/songwriters who are capable of writing or existing expertly in

more than one genre, to release their music?

rialb said:

I haven't heard the new album yet but Popular does not sound like a radical departure from the sound of his first album.

It is not a "radical" departure from the first two albums in that he is still utilizing an R&B

template mostly; it's a departure because it mostly eschews hooks, the song structures

are more adventurous and complex and therefore, not as accessible as Van Hunt and On

The Jungle Floor.

What Were You Hoping For? is the radical departure. But I think it is smartly written,

executed and performed.

Hell, I thought it was the album of the year.

I really dig Van's work but heir apparent? No.

[Edited 1/1/12 7:45am]

duccichucka said:

Another premise

seems to be that if you are an intelligent and sophisticated black songwriter, you

better dumb your shit down for godawful urban/pop radio if you want to eat.

Overall, I think this is a much more complex discussion we are having here about

Van Hunt because it seems to ask the questions:

What, if anything, does a musician owe to his/her fans?

How are musicians/songwriters who are capable of writing or existing expertly in

more than one genre, to release their music?

Would you say that Stevie Wonder dumbed his material down?

If you do, I would disagree strongly with that.

Its not about how intelligent you are or how capable of a songwriter you are. Its about knowing and appealing to your audience. Look at all of these old school artists who still tour and still eat off their music. They do it because they know their audience. When an artist changes lanes, they have to expect to lose some fans. The thing is, you have to know the rules in order to break them. These old school artists eat because they always deliver to their core audience. You can stray but if you abandon them, they abandon you.

Here is something that I wrote right after I saw Van in concert this last time. I never posted it anywhere but I intended to but decided that I didn't want to stir the pot on his facebook or myspace pages:

What the fuck, dude?
What a well executed mess.
Look bruh, I'm glad you have found a comfortable lane of expression for yourself doing punk surf alt rock hybrid music but you could have warned the rest of us that you were going to flip your other songs to fit that format. Maybe some of us would have skipped your show.

Yes, we still admire your creativity. Yes, we still respect your skills.
Its too bad you don't know your audience well enough to remember the genre in which you came to us under. It was not psychedelic punk rock. It was R&B.
The next time you decide to take us on an artistic journey that includes reformatting the songs we know with a punk spin, let us know that we are going to be a captive audience. Its your stage, your music and your choice. By the same token, its our choice to not sit through it, as you found out.
Some people left in the middle of your show. Maybe they weren't looking to go on the ride you took them on?
I stayed. Despite wanting to slap you silly for doing Man Of The Year instead of Hot Stage Lights and wanting to snatch the blanket off those drums (Really, dude? A fucking blanket?), I stayed.
Despite only finding about four or five songs listenable (Dust, Eyes Like Pearls, Seconds Of Pleasure, Her December and Character...partially ) I stayed.
Even though you sang your ass off while playing complicated bass lines; not an easy task at all, but played music that did not move me, I stayed.
Despite wanting to throw a chloroform rag over that bouncy ass guitar player of yours, I was still there.

You had to know how it went down. From the tepid crowd response to you having to confront a group of women for talking through your set, to the more than obvious walk-outs, you had to have a clue.
I know this is the part where I'm supposed to say "its not you, its us". "We just aren't ready or we just don't get it." That is not true. Some of us, like myself, who are well-schooled and very aware of what you were doing "get it" - we just don't like it.
Word of advice: next time you want to take an adventure through other genres, start another band, call it something else and use it as a front to explore your creative ventures. That way, you don't make your current fan base less likely to check out your next record and if it doesn't go over well, you can walk away with your name intact. Maybe you don't care? That's understandable. Just be aware that this has been tried before and it almost never ends well for the artist.
The question was "What Were We Hoping For?"
The answer: Familiarity.

That was my opinion of his show and that is the answer to your question of what does an artist owe to their audience. FAMILIARITY.

His demo stuff was hybrid music with much less of a mass appeal. It wouldn't have sold on its own but it was great material. It needed re-working. He did that and it worked for him. Popular is as out on the ledge as he should have gone under his own name.

I have said it before on this site and I will repeat it: I am a funk fan. When Prince is funky (and sometimes even when he is not) I dig his work. When he does some unfunky, off-kilter shit, I'm not supporting it. I don't give a shit if its Prince.

The same goes for Van Hunt. I don't like psychedelic punk, so just because it comes from Van Hunt doesn't mean I will support it. I am not alone in this mindset and I bet if he is honest with himself, he will realize that most of his core audience views music the same way.

BlaqueKnight said:

duccichucka said:

Another premise

seems to be that if you are an intelligent and sophisticated black songwriter, you

better dumb your shit down for godawful urban/pop radio if you want to eat.

Overall, I think this is a much more complex discussion we are having here about

Van Hunt because it seems to ask the questions:

What, if anything, does a musician owe to his/her fans?

How are musicians/songwriters who are capable of writing or existing expertly in

more than one genre, to release their music?

Would you say that Stevie Wonder dumbed his material down?

If you do, I would disagree strongly with that.

Its not about how intelligent you are or how capable of a songwriter you are. Its about knowing and appealing to your audience. Look at all of these old school artists who still tour and still eat off their music. They do it because they know their audience. When an artist changes lanes, they have to expect to lose some fans. The thing is, you have to know the rules in order to break them. These old school artists eat because they always deliver to their core audience. You can stray but if you abandon them, they abandon you.

Here is something that I wrote right after I saw Van in concert this last time. I never posted it anywhere but I intended to but decided that I didn't want to stir the pot on his facebook or myspace pages:

What the fuck, dude?
What a well executed mess.
Look bruh, I'm glad you have found a comfortable lane of expression for yourself doing punk surf alt rock hybrid music but you could have warned the rest of us that you were going to flip your other songs to fit that format. Maybe some of us would have skipped your show.

Yes, we still admire your creativity. Yes, we still respect your skills.
Its too bad you don't know your audience well enough to remember the genre in which you came to us under. It was not psychedelic punk rock. It was R&B.
The next time you decide to take us on an artistic journey that includes reformatting the songs we know with a punk spin, let us know that we are going to be a captive audience. Its your stage, your music and your choice. By the same token, its our choice to not sit through it, as you found out.
Some people left in the middle of your show. Maybe they weren't looking to go on the ride you took them on?
I stayed. Despite wanting to slap you silly for doing Man Of The Year instead of Hot Stage Lights and wanting to snatch the blanket off those drums (Really, dude? A fucking blanket?), I stayed.
Despite only finding about four or five songs listenable (Dust, Eyes Like Pearls, Seconds Of Pleasure, Her December and Character...partially ) I stayed.
Even though you sang your ass off while playing complicated bass lines; not an easy task at all, but played music that did not move me, I stayed.
Despite wanting to throw a chloroform rag over that bouncy ass guitar player of yours, I was still there.

You had to know how it went down. From the tepid crowd response to you having to confront a group of women for talking through your set, to the more than obvious walk-outs, you had to have a clue.
I know this is the part where I'm supposed to say "its not you, its us". "We just aren't ready or we just don't get it." That is not true. Some of us, like myself, who are well-schooled and very aware of what you were doing "get it" - we just don't like it.
Word of advice: next time you want to take an adventure through other genres, start another band, call it something else and use it as a front to explore your creative ventures. That way, you don't make your current fan base less likely to check out your next record and if it doesn't go over well, you can walk away with your name intact. Maybe you don't care? That's understandable. Just be aware that this has been tried before and it almost never ends well for the artist.
The question was "What Were We Hoping For?"
The answer: Familiarity.

That was my opinion of his show and that is the answer to your question of what does an artist owe to their audience. FAMILIARITY.

His demo stuff was hybrid music with much less of a mass appeal. It wouldn't have sold on its own but it was great material. It needed re-working. He did that and it worked for him. Popular is as out on the ledge as he should have gone under his own name.

I have said it before on this site and I will repeat it: I am a funk fan. When Prince is funky (and sometimes even when he is not) I dig his work. When he does some unfunky, off-kilter shit, I'm not supporting it. I don't give a shit if its Prince.

The same goes for Van Hunt. I don't like psychedelic punk, so just because it comes from Van Hunt doesn't mean I will support it. I am not alone in this mindset and I bet if he is honest with himself, he will realize that most of his core audience views music the same way.

Shiiiiiiit.

What happened to Stevie Wonder's career/music was that his ear finally failed him.

What I mean by that is where his heights saw the glory of his music suffused with his

his imagination and natural ear and its abilities, because his musical vocabulary

was limited, i.e., he did not have any music theory to supplement his natural ability,

he fell off.

The same has happened to McCartney, Brian Wilson, Prince and it would've happened

to Hendrix as well. Only the jazzers and classical composers got better as they

got older. Wielding great theoretical knowledge that enabled them to extend their

natural abilities beyond the present.

Stevie Wonder became repetitious, staid and boring because he already exhausted

his musical vocabulary.

Van Hunt studies theory and will not fall off as long as he is a just steward of his

talent.

-------------------------------

As for your after show thoughts, I hope Hunt's reading this because again, I think your

feelings are what most of his fans are experiencing and are astute. Or maybe he's an

artist not writing for the worriment of securing a present legacy: maybe he follows his

muse authentically and doesn't give a fuck about what his paying fans think.

I'm not Van Hunt so I ain't worried about how he's gonna eat: I do know that I appreciate

his sticking-to-his-guns-itiveness. If he's in the mood to put out alt black surfer punk

music, I'm game; dude has shown that his pretentiousness (2nd meaning) is not

pretentious (1st meaning).

As for remarking on a Van Hunt show - he's not a great live performer!

He's a recording artist.

A lot of music critics are lazy and deaf as all hell too, and their history of having such proves it.

Those are the same music critics who hailed Prince as the heir to Jimi Hendrix' legacy, so when know how that went.

One of Van's biggest fan and have been watching this conversation. It's a been a good one. Don't have much to add that hasn't already been said but I do have some Van Hunt news.

Van will be on the Tonight show w/ Jay Leno this friday! So tune and a check him out!

P2daP said:

One of Van's biggest fan and have been watching this conversation. It's a been a good one. Don't have much to add that hasn't already been said but I do have some Van Hunt news.

Van will be on the Tonight show w/ Jay Leno this friday! So tune and a check him out!

Thanks for the info. I'll try to make sure I catch it.

His drummer, Ruthie Price, is a protege of Thomas Pridgen, who plays

in a band with my brother, Nick Brewer of the Memorials.

Er, used to play, that is...

I've read a bunch of this thread and all I can say is that I don't know why people insist on complaining endlessly about artists they clearly do not enjoy. No one forces you to listen, buy, or support. If you don't like it, go find something you do like. The artist doesn't OWE you shit.

conflagration said:

I've read a bunch of this thread and all I can say is that I don't know why people insist on complaining endlessly about artists they clearly do not enjoy. No one forces you to listen, buy, or support. If you don't like it, go find something you do like. The artist doesn't OWE you shit.

Prince owes me $77.00

Graycap23 said:

conflagration said:

I've read a bunch of this thread and all I can say is that I don't know why people insist on complaining endlessly about artists they clearly do not enjoy. No one forces you to listen, buy, or support. If you don't like it, go find something you do like. The artist doesn't OWE you shit.

Prince owes me $77.00

LOL!

I refuse to buy anything Prince is selling these days. And that means tour tickets as well;

I don't want to see that midget playing guitar in his silk pajamas anymore.