I Love John Lennon, huge fan. But it's sad to see he treated his kids like shit for the most part, John was an innovative musician... and to many a hero. But he was also a crazy asshole, who played favorites with his kids and he abused women his whole life. I actually didn't know this till recently, John used to be one of my heroes.. he still is musically. But i can't stomach when people act like he was some great messiah of a human being...

That's odd. I was just watching this about an hour ago.

And it's pretty funny that the same man that wrote "All You Need is Love" and "Give Peace a Chance" would also be the one to verbally and emotionally abuse his first wife, abandon his eldest son and then the few contacts they did have were either awkward or confrontational (sources say John hit him for any shortcomings) and also beefed with the rest of the Beatles (mainly George Harrison and Paul McCartney) until nearly the moment he died.

I know not all icons are perfect but the way the media has made Lennon such a deity has become such that it's really becoming a sickness at this point.

Yes, a lot of my musical heroes where not... the greatest of people some of them like

Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Axl Rose, James Brown, Ozzy, Eddie Van Halen, R. Kelly, George Michael, hell even Marvin a little bit.

Yet we are constantly reminded of these peoples faults, it's rare to go to a youtube video and not to hear people talk about Ray Charles drug use, Axl Rose being a psycho, Kells being a pedophile, George Michael being a gay pervert. Or Kanye West being a whiny asshole

But with Lennon, it's all hero worship... in the media and nothing else. Lennon has faults like those musicians listed above, and shouldn't be treated any more special. Just cause he helped & supported some great causes.

Gunsnhalen said:

Yes, a lot of my musical heroes where not... the greatest of people some of them like

Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Axl Rose, James Brown, Ozzy, Eddie Van Halen, R. Kelly, George Michael, hell even Marvin a little bit.

Yet we are constantly reminded of these peoples faults, it's rare to go to a youtube video and not to hear people talk about Ray Charles drug use, Axl Rose being a psycho, Kells being a pedophile, George Michael being a gay pervert. Or Kanye West being a whiny asshole

But with Lennon, it's all hero worship... in the media and nothing else. Lennon has faults like those musicians listed above, and shouldn't be treated any more special. Just cause he helped & supported some great causes.

Exactly, least with the guys you mention including Marvin (and let's not forget Chuck Berry), people know about their faults. But John's seemingly gets passed over.

Timmy84 said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Yes, a lot of my musical heroes where not... the greatest of people some of them like

Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Axl Rose, James Brown, Ozzy, Eddie Van Halen, R. Kelly, George Michael, hell even Marvin a little bit.

Yet we are constantly reminded of these peoples faults, it's rare to go to a youtube video and not to hear people talk about Ray Charles drug use, Axl Rose being a psycho, Kells being a pedophile, George Michael being a gay pervert. Or Kanye West being a whiny asshole

But with Lennon, it's all hero worship... in the media and nothing else. Lennon has faults like those musicians listed above, and shouldn't be treated any more special. Just cause he helped & supported some great causes.

Exactly, least with the guys you mention including Marvin (and let's not forget Chuck Berry), people know about their faults. But John's seemingly gets passed over.

oh dear yes i forgot about Chuck ahah

John always was a contradictory asshole who wrote great songs...

JoeTyler said:

John always was a contradictory asshole who wrote great songs...

On Imagine he has... well Imagine & then How Do You Sleep. Those songs totally destroy the message of Imagine.

John never claimed to be a saint. That image was partly Yoko's doing after he died, similar to Priscilla Presley's marketing of Elvis.

MickyDolenz said:

John never claimed to be a saint. That image was partly Yoko's doing after he died, similar to Priscilla Presley's marketing of Elvis.

John was still alive when that saint shit started lol sure it got turned up to eleven after he died but they were doing that when he was alive. And then after he died, they made him a martyr lol he was just a decent enough musician who wrote some good songs. That's all.

re Axl, everyone has known from day one that he was nuts. At this point, it is rather endearing. He has neer tried to cover it up, but then again, I don't think he knows how or feels he has to.

Re John, he always seemed assy to me and I believe that Yoko wanted him to never be around julian.

scriptgirl said:

re Axl, everyone has known from day one that he was nuts. At this point, it is rather endearing. He has neer tried to cover it up, but then again, I don't think he knows how or feels he has to.

Re John, he always seemed assy to me and I believe that Yoko wanted him to never be around julian.

Julian never liked Yoko and I think he did say that Yoko didn't really appreciate him coming to their house in New York because she was afraid John would not pass any attention to her again and be all on Julian. That's why she had Sean. I believe it.

Timmy84 said:

Julian never liked Yoko

I guess not since she came in the picture while John was still married to his mother. I think John only married Cynthia because she was pregnant, and that was the 'right thing to do' during that time. Having children out of wedlock was a no no.

I never liked Yoko because she abandoned her own child to be with John

scriptgirl said:

I never liked Yoko because she abandoned her own child to be with John

Right right. Then she made this campaign to get her back claiming her ex-husband "stole" her.

Timmy84 said:

scriptgirl said:

I never liked Yoko because she abandoned her own child to be with John

Right right. Then she made this campaign to get her back claiming her ex-husband "stole" her.

well alot to say here about one of the most misunderstood situations ever. Some have called Julian as "a spoiled rich kid" not even close, Julians complaints about Yoko, were strictly over what happend to personal things, postcards, gold records, tour books, clothing of Johns that were auctioned off and Julian never was given a chance to look at or have, the money Julian gets as his settlement he has used to BUY those items back at auction, anyone who has lost a loved one/parent, think how you would feel about having to buy your own fathers items back from strangers.

Next Julian now 48, has buried that hatchet with Yoko, mainly because of Sean whom he loves, he feels that speaking out anymore hurts Yoko and does hurt Sean who isnt responsible for any of these things, like Julian wasnt. next on John, he wasnt ready for a child, at the time he was just 22 the Beatles had hit and only getting bigger, the marriage and child had to be hidden from the press and denied for years.

The scary thing that Julian pointed out was that John's mother left him when he was 5 and then she died when John was 17, John left Julian at age 5 and died when Julian was 17, which led Julian not to have a family, for that fear. Julian has come to terms with his fathers actions, John was far far from perfect, he spoke of peace and love but didnt practice it early on at all, it wasnt till later in life that he realize this. He was getting back with Julian at the time of his death though it was still no where near perfect, things were being mended, cause lets face it, when Julian was born he would go months and months and not see John because of the beatles and tours, but after Sean was born he took 5 years away from music to raise him, think how Julian felt about that? as Julian said, "why couldnt he do that with me?, but julians answer is that "he couldnt, too much was happening with the Beatles and that was a normal circumstance, he couldnt just say, lets stop this group now".

Julian has just issued a new album, his first since 1998's amazing "photograph smile" this album keeps that AMAZING streak going, proving that also Julian has gotten better with age and more of a grasp on music and the business of it. people should check his interviews recently and around the time of the "beatles memorablia" book and his photography exhibit, he speaks on this whole subject quite honestly.

lastdecember said:

next on John, he wasnt ready for a child, at the time he was just 22 the Beatles had hit and only getting bigger, the marriage and child had to be hidden from the press and denied for years.

It wasn't that hidden. When the group first appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show, it clearly says on John's closeup "Sorry girls, he's married". It was spoofed on OutKast's Hey Ya video.

I am not excusing either Yoko or John on this one. Both were asses

Paul wrote Hey Jude for Julian because he (Paul) felt sorry for Julian's situation.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

John never claimed to be a saint. That image was partly Yoko's doing after he died, similar to Priscilla Presley's marketing of Elvis.

John was still alive when that saint shit started lol sure it got turned up to eleven after he died but they were doing that when he was alive. And then after he died, they made him a martyr lol he was just a decent enough musician who wrote some good songs. That's all.

Forget saint! When he was alive, John Lennon was marketed as far more of a rock star than Paul McCartney.

MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

next on John, he wasnt ready for a child, at the time he was just 22 the Beatles had hit and only getting bigger, the marriage and child had to be hidden from the press and denied for years.

It wasn't that hidden. When the group first appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show, it clearly says on John's closeup "Sorry girls, he's married". It was spoofed on OutKast's Hey Ya video.

It was hidden overseas, john was cynthia a bit, Julian was born in 63, sullivan was 64 so just that plus the relationship, the beatles werent allowed "girlfriends" then it ruined their image.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

John was still alive when that saint shit started lol sure it got turned up to eleven after he died but they were doing that when he was alive. And then after he died, they made him a martyr lol he was just a decent enough musician who wrote some good songs. That's all.

Forget saint! When he was alive, John Lennon was marketed as far more of a rock star than Paul McCartney.

True John wasnt this "peace" guy and "love" guy that all started after death when people got back into his music, lets be real, IMAGINE was not the anthem till after his death. BUT lets not make it like this guy became an icon after he was murdered, alright, there is a HUGE difference between Lennon and say Cobain, who became more, much more, after death.

And.....this is all surprising you?

John was very much a paradox. On one hand, he seemed to care about others and the state of the world, the next all he could care about was himself. He was a true selfish prick sometimes..

Going on to his first marriage, I believe John only married Cynthia because she was pregnant with Julian and it was "the right thing to do" at the time. Otherwise he would've just moved on. I always thought it was wrong the way he treated Julian after he married Yoko. But I do remember reading that when he was married to his first wife, he did have many a cherished phonecall with him. But yes, I do agree his first marriage was ill-timed.

In one of Cynthia's books, she described John as a bum who, if he wasn't a musician, wouldn't have amounted to much.

Yoko I believe really blew up John's image after his assasination. I also believe the manner in which John died also contributed to this "fallen hero" image he has now. The thing that people forget is, John never wanted to be a "dead hero". He's even said so on occasion. And yet in the end, he became one.

John didn't care what others thought of him. For most of the seventies, he just lived in his own little word, occasionally writing and releasing, but mostly just giving into his demons. He was separated from Yoko for a while but they eventually reunited and had Sean.

As far as Yoko is concerned, although I've had some sympathy for her as a widow, she really is an insecure, very needy bitch. She wouldn't even let Cynthia come to John's funeral/memorial. And she didn't like Julian because he was part of Cynthia and John's union. She wanted John all for herself and didn't want ANYTHING, not even his son or her own daughter Kyoko from her first marriage, taking that attention from her. And yeah, I do believe she had Sean to seal the deal.

Despite John's general assholery, I do believe that man could've changed, even a little as he aged (mellowing out y'know?). I saw that he became different towards the end of his life and I only wish I could've seen what kind of person he would be through out the 80's, 90's, and so on.

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

And.....this is all surprising you?

John was very much a paradox. On one hand, he seemed to care about others and the state of the world, the next all he could care about was himself. He was a true selfish prick sometimes..

Going on to his first marriage, I believe John only married Cynthia because she was pregnant with Julian and it was "the right thing to do" at the time. Otherwise he would've just moved on. I always thought it was wrong the way he treated Julian after he married Yoko. But I do remember reading that when he was married to his first wife, he did have many a cherished phonecall with him. But yes, I do agree his first marriage was ill-timed.

In one of Cynthia's books, she described John as a bum who, if he wasn't a musician, wouldn't have amounted to much.

Yoko I believe really blew up John's image after his assasination. I also believe the manner in which John died also contributed to this "fallen hero" image he has now. The thing that people forget is, John never wanted to be a "dead hero". He's even said so on occasion. And yet in the end, he became one.

John didn't care what others thought of him. For most of the seventies, he just lived in his own little word, occasionally writing and releasing, but mostly just giving into his demons. He was separated from Yoko for a while but they eventually reunited and had Sean.

As far as Yoko is concerned, although I've had some sympathy for her as a widow, she really is an insecure, very needy bitch. She wouldn't even let Cynthia come to John's funeral/memorial. And she didn't like Julian because he was part of Cynthia and John's union. She wanted John all for herself and didn't want ANYTHING, not even his son or her own daughter Kyoko from her first marriage, taking that attention from her. And yeah, I do believe she had Sean to seal the deal.

Despite John's general assholery, I do believe that man could've changed, even a little as he aged (mellowing out y'know?). I saw that he became different towards the end of his life and I only wish I could've seen what kind of person he would be through out the 80's, 90's, and so on.

this is true of most artists, lets be real, its not exclusive to Mr Lennon, lets look at Mr. Prince who preached love and soulmates about Mayte, and then was with another woman 2 years later and having that marriage destroyed. Rick James could write a song like "ebony eyese" and was the biggest womanizer, tons of GUYS write love songs, and then go out and bang another woman, lets get real.

lastdecember said:

this is true of most artists, lets be real, its not exclusive to Mr Lennon, lets look at Mr. Prince who preached love and soulmates about Mayte, and then was with another woman 2 years later and having that marriage destroyed. Rick James could write a song like "ebony eyese" and was the biggest womanizer, tons of GUYS write love songs, and then go out and bang another woman, lets get real.

George Harrison slept with Ringo's 1st wife Maureen, and that's the main reason Ringo divorced her. Then Eric Clapton took George's wife Patti. All the Beatles slept with many groupies while touring, and even shared some. Paul was slapped with a paternity suit in the late 1960's from one of these women.

While we can admire and even be inspired by a person''s artistic expression, putting them on a pedestal as though they don't have shortcomings like anyone else is a mistake whether it's Lennon or Prince for that matter.

People tend to give notable people a pass when they act like jerks for some reason and the media has helped make celebrity culture into an industry where even behaving badly can actually turn a profit for some individuals...it's all very shallow and vapid in reality because what the public sees is often a manufactured persona rather than the real deal...after all, their job for the most part is selling one fantasy or another.

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

And.....this is all surprising you?

John was very much a paradox. On one hand, he seemed to care about others and the state of the world, the next all he could care about was himself. He was a true selfish prick sometimes..

Going on to his first marriage, I believe John only married Cynthia because she was pregnant with Julian and it was "the right thing to do" at the time. Otherwise he would've just moved on. I always thought it was wrong the way he treated Julian after he married Yoko. But I do remember reading that when he was married to his first wife, he did have many a cherished phonecall with him. But yes, I do agree his first marriage was ill-timed.

In one of Cynthia's books, she described John as a bum who, if he wasn't a musician, wouldn't have amounted to much.

Yoko I believe really blew up John's image after his assasination. I also believe the manner in which John died also contributed to this "fallen hero" image he has now. The thing that people forget is, John never wanted to be a "dead hero". He's even said so on occasion. And yet in the end, he became one.

John didn't care what others thought of him. For most of the seventies, he just lived in his own little word, occasionally writing and releasing, but mostly just giving into his demons. He was separated from Yoko for a while but they eventually reunited and had Sean.

As far as Yoko is concerned, although I've had some sympathy for her as a widow, she really is an insecure, very needy bitch. She wouldn't even let Cynthia come to John's funeral/memorial. And she didn't like Julian because he was part of Cynthia and John's union. She wanted John all for herself and didn't want ANYTHING, not even his son or her own daughter Kyoko from her first marriage, taking that attention from her. And yeah, I do believe she had Sean to seal the deal.

Despite John's general assholery, I do believe that man could've changed, even a little as he aged (mellowing out y'know?). I saw that he became different towards the end of his life and I only wish I could've seen what kind of person he would be through out the 80's, 90's, and so on.

Nah it don't surprise me about John because I knew that and he had no problem admitting that either. It's just the media I got a problem with because it's a double standard with him. Now all that info about him and May Pang and that shit comes out, people wanna act surprised but believe me I'm not the one who is surprised about Lennon.

lastdecember said:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

And.....this is all surprising you?

John was very much a paradox. On one hand, he seemed to care about others and the state of the world, the next all he could care about was himself. He was a true selfish prick sometimes..

Going on to his first marriage, I believe John only married Cynthia because she was pregnant with Julian and it was "the right thing to do" at the time. Otherwise he would've just moved on. I always thought it was wrong the way he treated Julian after he married Yoko. But I do remember reading that when he was married to his first wife, he did have many a cherished phonecall with him. But yes, I do agree his first marriage was ill-timed.

In one of Cynthia's books, she described John as a bum who, if he wasn't a musician, wouldn't have amounted to much.

Yoko I believe really blew up John's image after his assasination. I also believe the manner in which John died also contributed to this "fallen hero" image he has now. The thing that people forget is, John never wanted to be a "dead hero". He's even said so on occasion. And yet in the end, he became one.

John didn't care what others thought of him. For most of the seventies, he just lived in his own little word, occasionally writing and releasing, but mostly just giving into his demons. He was separated from Yoko for a while but they eventually reunited and had Sean.

As far as Yoko is concerned, although I've had some sympathy for her as a widow, she really is an insecure, very needy bitch. She wouldn't even let Cynthia come to John's funeral/memorial. And she didn't like Julian because he was part of Cynthia and John's union. She wanted John all for herself and didn't want ANYTHING, not even his son or her own daughter Kyoko from her first marriage, taking that attention from her. And yeah, I do believe she had Sean to seal the deal.

Despite John's general assholery, I do believe that man could've changed, even a little as he aged (mellowing out y'know?). I saw that he became different towards the end of his life and I only wish I could've seen what kind of person he would be through out the 80's, 90's, and so on.

this is true of most artists, lets be real, its not exclusive to Mr Lennon, lets look at Mr. Prince who preached love and soulmates about Mayte, and then was with another woman 2 years later and having that marriage destroyed. Rick James could write a song like "ebony eyese" and was the biggest womanizer, tons of GUYS write love songs, and then go out and bang another woman, lets get real.

Yeah, it's called a carefully manufactured image lol

MickyDolenz said:

Paul wrote Hey Jude for Julian because he (Paul) felt sorry for Julian's situation.

Poor Julian.

We tend to put our musical heroes on pedestals. We fail to realize that even though they make great music and may have changed our lives, they are people just like everyone else and they all have faults, experience the same problems and have the same shortcomings the rest of us do.

I'm not going to drop names, but there are many singers & musicians I absolutely adore! I can listen to their music all day, everyday. But, based on some of the things I've heard about them and that I've seen them do over the years, I wouldn't want them as friends.