You know...

I've been on this board for four years. And almost every time I come here (and on YouTube) I always see comments about "R&B music used to be so real" from twentysomethings who didn't live it (not saying no names or nothing).

Yet I wonder, all these "I wish R&B was back" folks who did live it, I wonder where "the love" went?

Maybe you should ask yourself: the consumer of R&B.

Did it come to a point to any of you when watching documentaries on the lives of people like Chuck Berry or Howlin' Wolf that take only one part of the argument and embolden it into a major part of the discussion not hear this important fact left out of your arguments:

"The black audience got tired of blues simply. No one wanted to hear blues, they wanted to hear the latest craze (rock 'n' roll) so the white audiences who had spent years not listening to it all of a sudden wanna listen to it and became fans of it."

I'm noticing that over the years, what ever gets tiring for black audiences, they move on to something else.

If it wasn't blues, it was rock 'n' roll/doo-wop, if it wasn't rock 'n' roll/doo-wop, it was soul (Motown, Stax, Philadelphia International, etc.), if it wasn't soul, it was disco, if it wasn't disco, it was funk, if it wasn't funk, it was "urban adult contemporary", if it wasn't that, it was new jack swing, if it wasn't new jack swing, it was hip-hop soul, if it wasn't hip-hop soul, it was "neo-soul" (and don't even get me started on that name), if it wasn't "neo-soul", it was more stronger forms of rap music in R&B (crunk&B ) or pop-R&B or "urban techno".

Now we're all confused as to what it is that there is to love. Maybe it has to do with the artist, maybe it has to do with location, maybe it has to do that we ignore certain forms and then when we go back to embrace it, it's already gone.

So out of this boring essay which I know you ain't gonna read and create a stupid 100-page thread talking all that "stolen" bullshit, I wanted to ask this, if you so LOVE R&B, then why were you quick to forget it? Did certain forms become passe? Or what?

If you really love R&B music, then why did you not "cling on to it"? Why? Because the "white audience" love it too? Is that what's really good? Let me know or better yet don't and keep on talking shit about artists you claim to hate yet ignore artists you claim to love.

I'll lead you on to it.

[Edited 12/12/11 18:38pm]

funny...CNN just did a great article about this very topic

SoulAlive said:

funny...CNN just did a great article about this very topic

I didn't feel like contributing on that one. Mine's for debate among the "we need to bring back R&B" rally party that is going on around here.

I think the CNN article was about what happened to the Love that used to be represented in R&B music, i.e. Barry White singing about loving a woman so much that he wasn't ever gonna give her up in the song "Never Gonna Give You Up". They compared him to Chris Brown at some point in the article - that's when I lost interest. I don't consider Chris Brown's music R&B.

Tim, if I'm reading you right you're asking why have we lost our love for R&B music?

-

Shaolin325 said:

I think the CNN article was about what happened to the Love that used to be represented in R&B music, i.e. Barry White singing about loving a woman so much that he wasn't ever gonna give her up in the song "Never Gonna Give You Up". They compared him to Chris Brown at some point in the article - that's when I lost interest. I don't consider Chris Brown's music R&B.

Tim, if I'm reading you right you're asking why have we lost our love for R&B music?

-

Yep. Or if I wanna put it blunt. ALL forms of what we're calling "our own" like jazz, blues, etc. It's mainly all of them.

But yeah about that... the "love in R&B" was never the only exclusive thing. You had songs that said "fuck you ho" in some R&B/blues music going back to the times Bessie Smith used to rule.

I mean we can talk about "love music" in R&B. That has never went away but I guess people's attentions are elsewhere. That's why I said people are fickle. Once shit like being "classy" gets tired, people move on and then when they don't want the shit anymore, they try to find the classy shit like romance in R&B and act like it disappeared with the dinosaurs...

Timmy84 said:

Shaolin325 said:

I think the CNN article was about what happened to the Love that used to be represented in R&B music, i.e. Barry White singing about loving a woman so much that he wasn't ever gonna give her up in the song "Never Gonna Give You Up". They compared him to Chris Brown at some point in the article - that's when I lost interest. I don't consider Chris Brown's music R&B.

Tim, if I'm reading you right you're asking why have we lost our love for R&B music?

-

Yep. Or if I wanna put it blunt. ALL forms of what we're calling "our own" like jazz, blues, etc. It's mainly all of them.

But yeah about that... the "love in R&B" was never the only exclusive thing. You had songs that said "fuck you ho" in some R&B/blues music going back to the times Bessie Smith used to rule.

I mean we can talk about "love music" in R&B. That has never went away but I guess people's attentions are elsewhere. That's why I said people are fickle. Once shit like being "classy" gets tired, people move on and then when they don't want the shit anymore, they try to find the classy shit like romance in R&B and act like it disappeared with the dinosaurs...

I can't say that I'm a blues music fan. I do like it when r&b artists make songs that have a bluesy feel to them, i.e. Al Green's "I Can't Get Next To You" (the only song I can think of right now), but I don't listen to traditional blues music.

I'm also not much of a traditional jazz fan. I prefer smooth jazz.... so there you go.

I'll just bow out of this converstation now......

Shaolin325 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yep. Or if I wanna put it blunt. ALL forms of what we're calling "our own" like jazz, blues, etc. It's mainly all of them.

But yeah about that... the "love in R&B" was never the only exclusive thing. You had songs that said "fuck you ho" in some R&B/blues music going back to the times Bessie Smith used to rule.

I mean we can talk about "love music" in R&B. That has never went away but I guess people's attentions are elsewhere. That's why I said people are fickle. Once shit like being "classy" gets tired, people move on and then when they don't want the shit anymore, they try to find the classy shit like romance in R&B and act like it disappeared with the dinosaurs...

I can't say that I'm a blues music fan. I do like it when r&b artists make songs that have a bluesy feel to them, i.e. Al Green's "I Can't Get Next To You" (the only song I can think of right now), but I don't listen to traditional blues music.

I'm also not much of a traditional jazz fan. I prefer smooth jazz.... so there you go.

I'll just bow out of this converstation now......

Well you're the smart one!

Timmy84 said:

If you really love R&B music, then why did you not "cling on to it"? Why? Because the "white audience" love it too? Is that what's really good? Let me know or better yet don't and keep on talking shit about artists you claim to hate yet ignore artists you claim to love.

I'll lead you on to it.

Well, in my case, I went to college and didn't have money to buy CDs anymore. But you best believe all my college roommates were introduced to pretty much every R&B girl group that existed from about 1964 to 1993. (Interestingly enough, British girl group Eternal was a particular favorite amongst my roomies.) I think part of it comes down to what each generation likes. I've read that teenagers typically spend the most money on music, and apparently they've decided they don't like R&B. Of course, this could be a little simplistic, but that's just been my experience. And you KNOW hardly anyone here is gonna admit to abandoning R&B, don't you? Maybe we oughta ask the posters on a Ke$ha board why they don't love R&B. I'll just be over here while one of y'all works on that.

Arbwyth said:

Timmy84 said:

If you really love R&B music, then why did you not "cling on to it"? Why? Because the "white audience" love it too? Is that what's really good? Let me know or better yet don't and keep on talking shit about artists you claim to hate yet ignore artists you claim to love.

I'll lead you on to it.

Well, in my case, I went to college and didn't have money to buy CDs anymore. But you best believe all my college roommates were introduced to pretty much every R&B girl group that existed from about 1964 to 1993. (Interestingly enough, British girl group Eternal was a particular favorite amongst my roomies.) I think part of it comes down to what each generation likes. I've read that teenagers typically spend the most money on music, and apparently they've decided they don't like R&B. Of course, this could be a little simplistic, but that's just been my experience. And you KNOW hardly anyone here is gonna admit to abandoning R&B, don't you? Maybe we oughta ask the posters on a Ke$ha board why they don't love R&B. I'll just be over here while one of y'all works on that.

I know but I thought "lemme try this experiment and see what the responses are". Of course no one's gonna respond to this since no one comes here like that.

A lot of younger people mostly hear the music that is played on the oldies stations or inserted in video games, whether it's 60's, 70's, or 80's (or maybe some old records their parents have). These stations only play certain songs and performers. So they assume everything in the past was good, when there were many acts and hit songs that weren't that good. A lot of the music considered classic today, was trashed by many at the time it was originally out.

[Edited 12/12/11 19:43pm]

Timmy84 said:

Arbwyth said:

Well, in my case, I went to college and didn't have money to buy CDs anymore. But you best believe all my college roommates were introduced to pretty much every R&B girl group that existed from about 1964 to 1993. (Interestingly enough, British girl group Eternal was a particular favorite amongst my roomies.) I think part of it comes down to what each generation likes. I've read that teenagers typically spend the most money on music, and apparently they've decided they don't like R&B. Of course, this could be a little simplistic, but that's just been my experience. And you KNOW hardly anyone here is gonna admit to abandoning R&B, don't you? Maybe we oughta ask the posters on a Ke$ha board why they don't love R&B. I'll just be over here while one of y'all works on that.

I know but I thought "lemme try this experiment and see what the responses are". Of course no one's gonna respond to this since no one comes here like that.

Well, then the only way to further this conversation might be to do some field research. I nominate you as the brave martyr soldier who shall collect responses from the Ke$ha fans.

http://soundcloud.com/thrillionaire-1/milk-hunny-can-i-get-some-hot

Well, according to Andy Whitney Houston ruined R&B

But seriously, I think it has something to do with times changing and people not necessarily liking the fact that things do, in fact, change. Music is no different I'm 19 and I hear my parents who are in their early 50s say "music was better back in my day" I'm pretty sure that's always been the case, for example let's say in the year 1975 older people claiming music was better in 1945. People don't like change, so they bitch about it lol. I ginuwinely believe that music was better 30 years ago than it is today, but I also enjoy music from this decade as well. As much as I hate to say it Beyonce's "Party" is pretty good, but only because of Andre 3000's verse . I also enjoy J. Cole's new song "Can't Get Enough." Its all about what's pleasing to your ears.

Terrib3Towel said:

Well, according to Andy, Whitney Houston ruined R&B

But he likes disco era funk and early 80's electrofunk. He said that most funk pre-disco was too jazzy for him. I think he said that R&B died when they decided to water down the music to crossover and appeal to the pop audience. Some people in the 1960's said the same thing about Motown. They would say that labels like Chess and Stax were real R&B.

Terrib3Towel said:

Well, according to Andy Whitney Houston ruined R&B

But seriously, I think it has something to do with times changing and people not necessarily liking the fact that things do, in fact, change. Music is no different I'm 19 and I hear my parents who are in their early 50s say "music was better back in my day" I'm pretty sure that's always been the case, for example let's say in the year 1975 older people claiming music was better in 1945. People don't like change, so they bitch about it lol. I ginuwinely believe that music was better 30 years ago than it is today, but I also enjoy music from this decade as well. As much as I hate to say it Beyonce's "Party" is pretty good, but only because of Andre 3000's verse . I also enjoy J. Cole's new song "Can't Get Enough." Its all about what's pleasing to your ears.

Totally agree. What I find strange in my own case is that while R&B and more specifcally New Jack swing have always been my great musical loves, I also LOVED happy hardcore and similar genres when I was younger. When I went to Germany I thought I'd died and gone to heaven listening to the radio and actually hearing that stuff on the airwaves. One of my friends recently pointed out to me that a lot of the music on the radio nowadays seems to have significant happy hardcore influences. Which makes me wonder, WHY don't I like it more? I flip through stations since that conversation and realize it is a little like when I was in Germany. Maybe it's just too MUCH of that sound. I don't actually dislike the heavily synthesized sound that's popular now, but it's much easier to appreciate when it's played alongside other genres. IMO, it just feels too cold and detached to listen to for long stretches like I can with R&B. Or it could just be grass is greener syndrome. Who knows?

About time Timmy . It's best I don't say what I want to say I might get banned so..

I will say when it comes to pop&B or "Mainstream R&B" I would suggest The Weeknd (he's not really mainstream but is becoming mainstream because of the bandwagoners) Miguel and Frank Ocean. They the only ones worth listening to.

There seems to be a disconnect today between actual talent and just finding people who look good to sell a record. I'm sure if you look back enough it always existed but in the last twenty years it's like it's at an all-time high. I'm 22 and I'll say in the last decade it wasn't even difficult for me to understand what folks were saying when Alicia Keys debuted, when the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill came out, etc...substance. Anybody that looked at the both of them could see they were attractive but they didn't have to play it up and only rely on that factor. They didn't have to be half naked everytime they performed. The talent itself was upfront. It was refreshing to people and it appealed to a certain demographic outside the teen and early 20s crowd. My parents have their material. But they don't have Chris Brown's or even Beyonce's. I think that says something.

musicjunky318 said:

There seems to be a disconnect today between actual talent and just finding people who look good to sell a record. I'm sure if you look back enough it always existed but in the last twenty years it's like it's at an all-time high. I'm 22 and I'll say in the last decade it wasn't even difficult for me to understand what folks were saying when Alicia Keys debuted, when the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill came out, etc...substance. Anybody that looked at the both of them could see they were attractive but they didn't have to play it up and only rely on that factor. They didn't have to be half naked everytime they performed. The talent itself was upfront. It was refreshing to people and it appealed to a certain demographic outside the teen and early 20s crowd. My parents have their material. But they don't have Chris Brown's or even Beyonce's. I think that says something.

I think people got bored lol. 4-5 years ago "Mainstream R&B" was on top but same ol same ole imo.

Let me also say that artists need to stop being lumped into the R&B category just because they're black. Rihanna is NOT R&B niether is Beyonce. Hell, by my standards none of these popular artists should be considered R&B; people like Trey Songz, Usher, Chris Brown, and Ne-Yo are not RYTHM AND BLUES. They're all pop tarts lol. When I think R&B I think of Bobby Womack, Marvin Gaye, Luther Vandross, and Stevie Wonder.

Terrib3Towel said:

When I think R&B I think of Bobby Womack, Marvin Gaye, Luther Vandross, and Stevie Wonder.

Can't play, never much cared for R&B.

Well, I can't find any who sound like Soul II Soul or PM Dawn right now

Prince is R&B and he's popular, isnt he? I love his music and always did. Also, I care a lot about other R&B Artists outthere like BSlade, Secret Rendezvous, Snax, Jamie Lidell etc. ... So this probably makes me an R&B freak ... But I have never followed any Billboard trends as I dont do now, I play what I play and which skin you're in doesnt matter to me .... Black audience, White audience, who cares??

MickyDolenz said:

Terrib3Towel said:

Well, according to Andy, Whitney Houston ruined R&B

But he likes disco era funk and early 80's electrofunk. He said that most funk pre-disco was too jazzy for him. I think he said that R&B died when they decided to water down the music to crossover and appeal to the pop audience. Some people in the 1960's said the same thing about Motown. They would say that labels like Chess and Stax were real R&B.

Even though I find Vaindandy's rants about Whitney Houston highly amusing, I usually disagree that Whitney Houston was the sole reason that r&b was 'watered down' so much. In reality...I kinda put the just as much 'blame', if not even more, on Prince, MJ, and just the way markets/consumers work in general. If anything, Whitney's music is just a product of the change in the r&b/pop music markets rather than someone who is solely responsible for it.

Popular music does reflect the change in people's taste since it's affected by the changes that are around them as well. It's not constant. I would think that his hatred would be better placed on the people that made it happen rather than the teenage girl who was just excited to have a recording contract and to be releasing albums of her own.

enfantdumilieu said:

Prince is R&B and he's popular, isnt he? I love his music and always did. Also, I care a lot about other R&B Artists outthere like BSlade, Secret Rendezvous, Snax, Jamie Lidell etc. ... So this probably makes me an R&B freak ... But I have never followed any Billboard trends as I dont do now, I play what I play and which skin you're in doesnt matter to me .... Black audience, White audience, who cares??

Talking with some sense here..watch out nah. I was just listening to Bslade ont he bus...ooh lawd people are missing out but I dont care...its BEING HEARD.

I too as a kid always followed up on the funk from the 80s more than what was given to me on a platter by the radio. I knew there was so much more..and there still IS!

I wouldn't say I abandoned R&B but more like it abandoned me. I think real R&B died around the early 90's when New Jack Swing took over. Prior to that R&B was still played on the radio. I was in love with ALL R&B during the 80's. 60's, 70's and 80's. Now it's only a memory of good times.

Prince is in no way R&B. He can do R&B , but he really isn't that. He is multi genre

MickyDolenz said:

So they assume everything in the past was good, when there were many acts and hit songs that weren't that good. A lot of the music considered classic today, was trashed by many at the time it was originally out.

A point worth emphasising alongside the fact that there still exists great music today that people might just need to put some effort to look for amidst the universe of material being constantly published in this modern age (versus the restricted outlets of the past).

arX said:

MickyDolenz said:

So they assume everything in the past was good, when there were many acts and hit songs that weren't that good. A lot of the music considered classic today, was trashed by many at the time it was originally out.

A point worth emphasising alongside the fact that there still exists great music today that people might just need to put some effort to look for amidst the universe of material being constantly published in this modern age (versus the restricted outlets of the past).