Unholyalliance said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Truthfully the US wasn't only built on the backs of African slaves, because Native-American backs were used too and even poor european indentured servants (a lot of times the Irish) even certain aspects had Asian (Korean?) labor

Also African slaves in America mostly were in use for the 'confederate' states, not all states(we weren't United yet)

=/

To me, you are making it seem that slavery almost didn't exist in the North and I, strongly, disagree. With time, the North's economy depended way less on farming as opposed to the South, but it's not as if slavery had been fully abolished in the North either though. The actual Confederate States didn't even exist until the 1860s. Africans were shipped here to be indentured servants in colonial America as far back as the 1600s and we all know that parts of Europe were doing that way before then. That's over 200 years!!! Please don't make it seem as if slavery solelyexisted for and in the South. That's some gross misinformation and kinda insulting imo. I feel that's similar to the Japanese trying to minimize their role in WWII and just acting as if the country as a whole was minding their own business when the US just came along and "randomly" dropped 2 atomic bombs on them. That is not accurate in the least.

The word 'chip' doesn't refer to a french fry in America, but rather potato chips. I don't get where you are going with this? That expressions and meanings of words change from culture to culture?!?!?!

Hundreds of years later 1000's of people have mis information about a cultural activity.

This thread is slightly depressing. There seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread. I don't get it. It's like in my textbook where they used to say that miles of land were uninhabited when the European settlers came, but that's a lie, because people were already here when they came. They moved them out, enslaved them, and then made many of them isolate themselves onto a lot of really shitty parts of the land.

Black Music is a folder I have in my computer

bobbyperu said:

Hold on, babynoz, I was just asking a question. I was not the one who brought up slavery and all that. No one has to get defensive because I'm not attacking anybody. I didn't invent the term "black music" or "black culture" or whatever.You mention Spanish and Hungarians etc but those are nations while black is a race that is made up by peoples of many nations. It is a skin color and nothing more. I've been to Africa and Kikuyu culture is not the same as Masai or Ethiopian culture or anywhere else on the continent. And that's exactly why I wanted to know how others understand the term. I named the Revolution as an example for the same reason as you do: because they were black and white and playing a variety of styles. What's black about that and what's white about it? That's what I was wondering about. Nothing more.

What's 'black' about 'black music? It's music born/created/developed and shared from/among many cultures/ethnic groups of people, normally classified as Black or having some Black African/ Black American/Caribbean descent, and are common forms of music existing within, specific ethnic groups of people from those racially-defined groups. That is why many of the music styles born/developed out of those groups are referenced as 'black music', such as specific music styles would be defined and connected to other non-black cultures and ethnic groups.

You asked in an earlier post if Jimi Hendrix sang a song from Bob Dylan, does it make it 'black music? Of course not. You're missing the point of what people mean about where certain forms of music developed. We're talking about the 'style' of music, the creation of specific sounds within a specific culture. Like 'reggae' for example, when I researched that form of music, I read that it was developed further from the rastafarii culture in Jamaica, although that form of music didn't start with the rastafaris, they just made it more popular in Jamaica, singing about social injustices/poverty, and it became a popular form of music in the Jamaican culture, when artists like Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and others made it more popular throughout Jamaica and parts of the Caribbean. Calypso was more or less the more popular form of music, before 'reggae'

throughout many parts of the Caribbean, and Calypso could be viewed as a form of 'blues, folk music and ballads', by many.

Keep in mind 'Black' doesn't just represent the various, beautiful skin tones that exist among many of these groups, so we should be careful, not to devalue the term 'Black', especially when most don't devalue other groups represented by specific 'colors' as a whole. Black also defines the various cultures/ethnic groups that exists under that category, as well as the many languages/dialects spoken within those groups, and the shared customs passed down from generation to generation, from people within Black African ethnic group to the Black Caribbeans to various Black American ethnic groups in the U.S. and Blacks who live in South/Central Americas, to Blacks who reside or were born in Europe from immigrant parents who traveled out of their original place of birth.

I'm glad you mentioned the difference between the kikuyu and the Masai cultures, because they may share common ancestors, but they live different cultures and have their own style of what they define as music. Well, the same comparison can be made about various Black ethnic/cultural groups defined under the term 'Black' living in America or elsewhere in the world, where they may share common ancestors, but live various lifestyles, practice different cultures, and may share similar ones, and also create/develop/share various forms of music. No different from any other racially-defined, non-black group who do the same, and have created their own form of music to share with the world, and deserves to be credited for it:-D .

'2nd paragraph edit'

[Edited 11/18/11 9:36am]

bobbyperu said:

Hold on, babynoz, I was just asking a question. I was not the one who brought up slavery and all that. No one has to get defensive because I'm not attacking anybody. I didn't invent the term "black music" or "black culture" or whatever.You mention Spanish and Hungarians etc but those are nations while black is a race that is made up by peoples of many nations. It is a skin color and nothing more. I've been to Africa and Kikuyu culture is not the same as Masai or Ethiopian culture or anywhere else on the continent. And that's exactly why I wanted to know how others understand the term. I named the Revolution as an example for the same reason as you do: because they were black and white and playing a variety of styles. What's black about that and what's white about it? That's what I was wondering about. Nothing more.

No worries, if I sound cranky it's because this very same question comes up frequently but never in my entire life have I ever heard anyone ask what is Chinese music, for example...it's just accepted as such.

Additionally, when you say black, that is a very broad category that encompasses many cultures so to say that it refers only to race/skin color is incorrect just as it would be wrong to limit white music to Germans for example.

So when you say black music are you referring to American black music or Nigerian black music, Jamaican black music? There are just as many black cultures as there are white cultures or asian cultures.

The origin of a particular style of music is the result of the individual and collective culture and experiences of a group of people in whatever region they inhabited as well as something as mundane as what materials they had in their environment to make instruments with.

Now if you're asking about American black music then you should understand that most black folk in the US lack the information to cite a specific region for the origin of the musical styles they developed so in that context it's commonly referred to as black music in cultural as well as racial origin...it's that simple.

I married a Kikuyu and the difference is that because he was born and raised on the continent, he could be specific about the origin of something whereas I don't have that information being born in the US, so I just say black by way of description because that's all the information I have.

Again, origin isn't the same as influence so I'm still not sure what your specific question is. When you ask in such broad terms, that's the reason why you get so many comments that may or may not answer your question.

babynoz said:

bobbyperu said:

Hold on, babynoz, I was just asking a question. I was not the one who brought up slavery and all that. No one has to get defensive because I'm not attacking anybody. I didn't invent the term "black music" or "black culture" or whatever.You mention Spanish and Hungarians etc but those are nations while black is a race that is made up by peoples of many nations. It is a skin color and nothing more. I've been to Africa and Kikuyu culture is not the same as Masai or Ethiopian culture or anywhere else on the continent. And that's exactly why I wanted to know how others understand the term. I named the Revolution as an example for the same reason as you do: because they were black and white and playing a variety of styles. What's black about that and what's white about it? That's what I was wondering about. Nothing more.

No worries, if I sound cranky it's because this very same question comes up frequently but never in my entire life have I ever heard anyone ask what is Chinese music, for example...it's just accepted as such.

Additionally, when you say black, that is a very broad category that encompasses many cultures so to say that it refers only to race/skin color is incorrect just as it would be wrong to limit white music to Germans for example.

So when you say black music are you referring to American black music or Nigerian black music, Jamaican black music? There are just as many black cultures as there are white cultures or asian cultures.

The origin of a particular style of music is the result of the individual and collective culture and experiences of a group of people in whatever region they inhabited as well as something as mundane as what materials they had in their environment to make instruments with.

Now if you're asking about American black music then you should understand that most black folk in the US lack the information to cite a specific region for the origin of the musical styles they developed so in that context it's commonly referred to as black music in cultural as well as racial origin...it's that simple.

I married a Kikuyu and the difference is that because he was born and raised on the continent, he could be specific about the origin of something whereas I don't have that information being born in the US, so I just say black by way of description because that's all the information I have.

Again, origin isn't the same as influence so I'm still not sure what your specific question is. When you ask in such broad terms, that's the reason why you get so many comments that may or may not answer your question.

But I think it's wrong to identify things that are non American/Black as black.

I think that takes away from the culture that was formed by those in the specific country as in the USA, the cultural expression is going to be very different. The history and ideas are very different.

I literally see Caribbean Music and culture as something seperate and different from what developed in the USA, a different verbal expression and probably have things a bit more connected to their African roots.

I know some people do have a Pan-African idea meaning Nigerian Ethiopian Ghanaian Caribbean Dominican American Harlem etc etc is all Black. But in a world view I don't think these people see it the same.

Nigerian culture/music is not 'Black' they were Nigerian before racial terms and labels existed.

Kikuyu is not a race, it's cultural ethnic group. Where the people are formed by the land and environment they live on. That's why there are 1000's of ethnic groups across the world that just can't be neatly fit into a race catagory. That's why people look so different across the world.

Roman/Italian society had a type of race-class idea that was: Civilized & Uncivilized/Barabarians

Romans could marry Civilized people but the Un- were used as slaved servants whores etc

Civilized = Romans & Italians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Nubians, Hebrews, Middle Eastern & I believe Spanish, the Uncivilized were the Gauls/French, Celts, Brits, Germanics

A very different idea compared to White & Black

the idea of race : Red Yellow Black & White didn't exist until

Race is a very recent construction. And its origins is soley bases on Social/Political foundations. Out of that sub-Culture comes.

Most people in the world identify people by their nationality, not race. Americans, we are very racialized in our thinking.

bobbyperu said:

Babynoz, U married a Kikuyu?!?!? Such a small world. So did I! For me race really is nothing more than a color, although of course I understand what you're saying. Wow, I never thought my question was going to lead to this. And now I'm on the subject and it's that time of the year again, there's a thread going on about Another Lonely Christmas on the Prince forum which will tell you a little bit about what happened.

Yep, I sure did. They killed a goat when we got married, They killed a goat when my son was born....every time there's a celebration, there goes another poor goat and plenty of beer!

But I learned the songs and dances that they have for celebrations too even though I only know a few Kikuyu words. I learned so much about diversity within black cultures from all of my African and Caribbean friends that I could hardly think of it as merely a reference to complexion.

I hope you have many happier Christmases ahead of you...

OldFriends4Sale said:

babynoz said:

No worries, if I sound cranky it's because this very same question comes up frequently but never in my entire life have I ever heard anyone ask what is Chinese music, for example...it's just accepted as such.

Additionally, when you say black, that is a very broad category that encompasses many cultures so to say that it refers only to race/skin color is incorrect just as it would be wrong to limit white music to Germans for example.

So when you say black music are you referring to American black music or Nigerian black music, Jamaican black music? There are just as many black cultures as there are white cultures or asian cultures.

The origin of a particular style of music is the result of the individual and collective culture and experiences of a group of people in whatever region they inhabited as well as something as mundane as what materials they had in their environment to make instruments with.

Now if you're asking about American black music then you should understand that most black folk in the US lack the information to cite a specific region for the origin of the musical styles they developed so in that context it's commonly referred to as black music in cultural as well as racial origin...it's that simple.

I married a Kikuyu and the difference is that because he was born and raised on the continent, he could be specific about the origin of something whereas I don't have that information being born in the US, so I just say black by way of description because that's all the information I have.

Again, origin isn't the same as influence so I'm still not sure what your specific question is. When you ask in such broad terms, that's the reason why you get so many comments that may or may not answer your question.

But I think it's wrong to identify things that are non American/Black as black.

I think that takes away from the culture that was formed by those in the specific country as in the USA, the cultural expression is going to be very different. The history and ideas are very different.

I literally see Caribbean Music and culture as something seperate and different from what developed in the USA, a different verbal expression and probably have things a bit more connected to their African roots.

I know some people do have a Pan-African idea meaning Nigerian Ethiopian Ghanaian Caribbean Dominican American Harlem etc etc is all Black. But in a world view I don't think these people see it the same.

Nigerian culture/music is not 'Black' they were Nigerian before racial terms and labels existed.

Kikuyu is not a race, it's cultural ethnic group. Where the people are formed by the land and environment they live on. That's why there are 1000's of ethnic groups across the world that just can't be neatly fit into a race catagory. That's why people look so different across the world.

Roman/Italian society had a type of race-class idea that was: Civilized & Uncivilized/Barabarians

Romans could marry Civilized people but the Un- were used as slaved servants whores etc

Civilized = Romans & Italians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Nubians, Hebrews, Middle Eastern & I believe Spanish, the Uncivilized were the Gauls/French, Celts, Brits, Germanics

A very different idea compared to White & Black

the idea of race : Red Yellow Black & White didn't exist until

Race is a very recent construction. And its origins is soley bases on Social/Political foundations. Out of that sub-Culture comes.

Most people in the world identify people by their nationality, not race. Americans, we are very racialized in our thinking.

I don't know, OF4S, why would you see Caribbean culture so different from Blacks born in America (the mainland or stateside) when there are Blacks in America with Caribbean roots, such as those born from Caribbean parents (such as myself), where both the Black American and Caribbean culture is very much a part of our culture? I embrace both cultures as one, and will not separate them, because I am part of both. I don't really separate it, only by specific customs, not practiced within each group and give credit to what customs/languages/dialects come from both groups. I identify as Black American. My sub-culture is Caribbean, where some customs of my parents Caribbean culture were practiced at home, and is still embraced among my family members today, but I honestly relate more to the Black American culture of the North, where I was born and raised.

The fact remains, both Black Americans and Black Caribbeans, regardless of complexion/skin tone, basically have the same ancestors anywhere from African/European/Native American/Asian, etc. at least two of the four listed to be exact, and yes, neither can specificallyidentify 100% to a particular African ethnic group, but are still descendants of an African ethnic group, even if they don't recognize those cultures/or practice it entirely on a daily basis. Most Blacks whether born in America or the Caribbean relate more to the customs/culture of their specific groups, depending on where they live.

. Not to mention the various, cultural Black groups living all over the U.S. developing sub-cultures where they live. i.e. Southern Black cultures vs Northern Black cultures, and in the Caribbean the Jamaicans culture vs Trinidadian culture. Although many of these groups are separated generation-wise from the history of slavery, and culture-wise, they still share a similar ancestral history, regardless of the years of generational separation from those who were actually enslaved. The only difference to me as far as self-identification, is that Black Caribbeans identify themselves by the island they were born on and often refer to their specific customs, on a general basis as part of the "West Indian culture' as a whole, but it doesn't mean they don't embrace their African roots or history, and they are no more closer or further from African ancestry, no more than Blacks born in America.

Both groups pretty much share the same African ancestors, coming from various African, ethnic groups, whether if individually, they have no exact knowledge of which particular African ethnic group or groups, they share a bloodline with, as well as the ancestry of various non-black groups, that don't embrace 'Blacks' as a whole, as part of their ethnicities. We should also be aware, that when the Africans were brought here and enslaved, those Africans came from a multitude of ethnic groups, with various facial/physical features and cultures, not just from one particular group.

Secondly, just to add, we should remember that during the slavery eras, there were many Africans born in Africa, that were sent over in ships to to South and Central America, and many also shipped to the Caribbean, and later to what is now known as America today, and were enslaved and worked on the sugar, cotton, etc., plantations. So both Black Americans as a whole, and Black Caribbeans share similar histories, and the only thing separating that connection is that they were dropped off in different destinations.

.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:05am]

rialb said:

Can we all at least agree that cake is awesome?

Too sweet for me. I like my treats salty.

OldFriends4Sale said:

babynoz said:

No worries, if I sound cranky it's because this very same question comes up frequently but never in my entire life have I ever heard anyone ask what is Chinese music, for example...it's just accepted as such.

Additionally, when you say black, that is a very broad category that encompasses many cultures so to say that it refers only to race/skin color is incorrect just as it would be wrong to limit white music to Germans for example.

So when you say black music are you referring to American black music or Nigerian black music, Jamaican black music? There are just as many black cultures as there are white cultures or asian cultures.

The origin of a particular style of music is the result of the individual and collective culture and experiences of a group of people in whatever region they inhabited as well as something as mundane as what materials they had in their environment to make instruments with.

Now if you're asking about American black music then you should understand that most black folk in the US lack the information to cite a specific region for the origin of the musical styles they developed so in that context it's commonly referred to as black music in cultural as well as racial origin...it's that simple.

I married a Kikuyu and the difference is that because he was born and raised on the continent, he could be specific about the origin of something whereas I don't have that information being born in the US, so I just say black by way of description because that's all the information I have.

Again, origin isn't the same as influence so I'm still not sure what your specific question is. When you ask in such broad terms, that's the reason why you get so many comments that may or may not answer your question.

But I think it's wrong to identify things that are non American/Black as black.

I think that takes away from the culture that was formed by those in the specific country as in the USA, the cultural expression is going to be very different. The history and ideas are very different.

I literally see Caribbean Music and culture as something seperate and different from what developed in the USA, a different verbal expression and probably have things a bit more connected to their African roots.

I know some people do have a Pan-African idea meaning Nigerian Ethiopian Ghanaian Caribbean Dominican American Harlem etc etc is all Black. But in a world view I don't think these people see it the same.

Nigerian culture/music is not 'Black' they were Nigerian before racial terms and labels existed.

Kikuyu is not a race, it's cultural ethnic group. Where the people are formed by the land and environment they live on. That's why there are 1000's of ethnic groups across the world that just can't be neatly fit into a race catagory. That's why people look so different across the world.

Roman/Italian society had a type of race-class idea that was: Civilized & Uncivilized/Barabarians

Romans could marry Civilized people but the Un- were used as slaved servants whores etc

Civilized = Romans & Italians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Nubians, Hebrews, Middle Eastern & I believe Spanish, the Uncivilized were the Gauls/French, Celts, Brits, Germanics

A very different idea compared to White & Black

the idea of race : Red Yellow Black & White didn't exist until

Race is a very recent construction. And its origins is soley bases on Social/Political foundations. Out of that sub-Culture comes.

Most people in the world identify people by their nationality, not race. Americans, we are very racialized in our thinking.

I could just as easily say that the indigenous people in that region were dark skinned before the country of Nigeria existed, so what's your point? It's a label used to describe somthing...that's all.

I have no idea why you are lecturing me on things that I already know but I was simply asking Bobby to narrow down what question he was trying to ask and we are getting along superbly, thank you very much.

I stated very clearly that American blacks use the term "black" to make racial/cultural references for lack of more specific knowledge. Black folk from Africa, for example don't do this simply because they don't need to, so what are you talking about?

Every culture develops differently according to location, environment, current events, history, etc. regardless of complexion so that's hardly news.

bobbyperu said:

Wow, I never thought my question was going to lead to this.

Well you learned your lesson, didn't you?

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But I think it's wrong to identify things that are non American/Black as black.

I think that takes away from the culture that was formed by those in the specific country as in the USA, the cultural expression is going to be very different. The history and ideas are very different.

I literally see Caribbean Music and culture as something seperate and different from what developed in the USA, a different verbal expression and probably have things a bit more connected to their African roots.

I know some people do have a Pan-African idea meaning Nigerian Ethiopian Ghanaian Caribbean Dominican American Harlem etc etc is all Black. But in a world view I don't think these people see it the same.

Nigerian culture/music is not 'Black' they were Nigerian before racial terms and labels existed.

Kikuyu is not a race, it's cultural ethnic group. Where the people are formed by the land and environment they live on. That's why there are 1000's of ethnic groups across the world that just can't be neatly fit into a race catagory. That's why people look so different across the world.

Roman/Italian society had a type of race-class idea that was: Civilized & Uncivilized/Barabarians

Romans could marry Civilized people but the Un- were used as slaved servants whores etc

Civilized = Romans & Italians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Nubians, Hebrews, Middle Eastern & I believe Spanish, the Uncivilized were the Gauls/French, Celts, Brits, Germanics

A very different idea compared to White & Black

the idea of race : Red Yellow Black & White didn't exist until

Race is a very recent construction. And its origins is soley bases on Social/Political foundations. Out of that sub-Culture comes.

Most people in the world identify people by their nationality, not race. Americans, we are very racialized in our thinking.

I don't know, OF$S, why would you see Caribbean culture so different from Blacks born in America (the mainland or stateside) when there are Blacks in America with Caribbean roots, such as those born from Caribbean parents (such as myself), where both the Black American and Caribbean culture is very much a part of our culture? I embrace both cultures as one. I don't really separate it much only by specific customs, not practiced within each group and give credit to what customs/languages/dialects come from both groups. I identify as Black American. My sub-culture is Caribbean, where some customs of the Caribbean were practiced at home, but I honestly relate more to the Black American culture of the North, where I was born and raised.

The fact remains, both Black Americans and Black Caribbeans, regardless of complexion/skin tone, basically have the same ancestors anywhere from African/European/Native American/Asian, etc. at least two of the four listed to be exact, and yes, neither can specificallyidentify 100% to a particular African ethnic group, but are still descendants of an African ethnic group, even if they don't recognize those cultures/or practice it entirely on a daily basis. Most Blacks whether born in America or the Caribbean relate more to the customs/culture their specific groups. Not to mention the various cultural Black groups living all over the U.S. developing sub-cultures where they live. i.e. Southern Black cultures vs Northern Black cultures, depending on where you live, as well as, Jamaicans culture vs Trinidadian culture. Although many of these groups are separated years from the history of slavery, and culture-wise, they still share a similar ancestral history, regardless of the years of generational separation from those who were actually enslaved.

Secondly, during slavery, there were many Africans born in Africa, but were sent over in ships to the Caribbean to work among the Amerindians, and both were enslaved on the Caribbean plantations, working together and sharing and mixing their cultures.

You also had Africans who were first sent from Africa to South and Central Americas, shipped to the Caribbean, then later many shipped to what is now known as America. So to be honest both groups are more connected than many of them realize.

Exactly what I'm trying to get across. It isn't necessarily wrong to say black, I was just asking my friend Bobby which black music he was referring to and why it would occur to him to ask.

babynoz said:

2elijah said:

I don't know, OF$S, why would you see Caribbean culture so different from Blacks born in America (the mainland or stateside) when there are Blacks in America with Caribbean roots, such as those born from Caribbean parents (such as myself), where both the Black American and Caribbean culture is very much a part of our culture? I embrace both cultures as one. I don't really separate it much only by specific customs, not practiced within each group and give credit to what customs/languages/dialects come from both groups. I identify as Black American. My sub-culture is Caribbean, where some customs of the Caribbean were practiced at home, but I honestly relate more to the Black American culture of the North, where I was born and raised.

The fact remains, both Black Americans and Black Caribbeans, regardless of complexion/skin tone, basically have the same ancestors anywhere from African/European/Native American/Asian, etc. at least two of the four listed to be exact, and yes, neither can specificallyidentify 100% to a particular African ethnic group, but are still descendants of an African ethnic group, even if they don't recognize those cultures/or practice it entirely on a daily basis. Most Blacks whether born in America or the Caribbean relate more to the customs/culture their specific groups. Not to mention the various cultural Black groups living all over the U.S. developing sub-cultures where they live. i.e. Southern Black cultures vs Northern Black cultures, depending on where you live, as well as, Jamaicans culture vs Trinidadian culture. Although many of these groups are separated years from the history of slavery, and culture-wise, they still share a similar ancestral history, regardless of the years of generational separation from those who were actually enslaved.

Secondly, during slavery, there were many Africans born in Africa, but were sent over in ships to the Caribbean to work among the Amerindians, and both were enslaved on the Caribbean plantations, working together and sharing and mixing their cultures.

You also had Africans who were first sent from Africa to South and Central Americas, shipped to the Caribbean, then later many shipped to what is now known as America. So to be honest both groups are more connected than many of them realize.

Exactly what I'm trying to get across. It isn't necessarily wrong to say black, I was just asking my friend Bobby which black music he was referring to and why it would occur to him to ask.

I hear you and you expressed some very good points. No disrespect to OF4S of course, but I was just a little curious as to why oF4s thinks that Black Caribbeans are more closer to their African roots, musically, moreso than Black Americans, when both groups have similar, ancestral histories and have ancestors from similar, but various African ethnic groups as well as, non-black ancestors. Thing is, didn't both groups' black, enslaved African ancestors not sing the 'blues' about the harsh treatments of slavery on the plantations of the Caribbean and in America? It may have been different sounds musically, but it touched on the same emotions and injustices, so those connections to one another were already there, because both groups' ancestors were feeling the same pain, and even during post-slavery.

Also, Bob Marley sang about the social injustices that was going on in Jamaica and around the world, so, I have to ask, did both groups not feel the pain of social injustices/racial prejudices and unfairness in America and the Caribbean? If Bob Marley was alive, he would have no problem agreeing with me.(I am not saying no other group hasn't suffered atrocities and unequal treatment by the way).

[Edited 11/18/11 11:01am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

Roman/Italian society had a type of race-class idea that was: Civilized & Uncivilized/Barabarians

Romans could marry Civilized people but the Un- were used as slaved servants whores etc

Civilized = Romans & Italians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Egyptians, Nubians, Hebrews, Middle Eastern & I believe Spanish, the Uncivilized were the Gauls/French, Celts, Brits, Germanics

A very different idea compared to White & Black

the idea of race : Red Yellow Black & White didn't exist until

Race is a very recent construction. And its origins is soley bases on Social/Political foundations. Out of that sub-Culture comes.

Most people in the world identify people by their nationality, not race. Americans, we are very racialized in our thinking.

Hmmm. We do agree on something. More common ground found. Race is a social construct.

Still, this social construct was born out of oppression and wasn't "agreed upon" by all, but rather forced onto other groups by the dominant culture that invaded this country.

The term "black" is the acceptance of the division and the usage of said classification to become self-descriptive. "Black" music is a very American term and I agree with you in that it works best when applied in an American context. When Americans say "black music", they are generally referring to music created or popularized by black Americans.

From what I've seen in my lifetime, a lot of white people flip flop between what they consider black music and what they consider as "music that came about as a result of many different groups of people so it shouldn't be labeled as black music". When black music makes it into the white mainstream and dominates it, then they hate labels but when it's strictly played on black radio with the exception of a few black artists who have weakened their music to make it onto white radio, then it's considered black music again.

The disco backlash is a perfect example of it. When disco dominated white radio, it was predominately black artists but a lot of whites didn't like it called black music and would argue that since hispanics and whites made disco also, that it wasn't black music. But when the disco backlash began, it was back to being black music again. The funk of the early 1980s was rhythmic, bass heavy, with pounding drums and it was played on black radio only and when many whites heard it, the same ones that had been into disco before the backlash, they called it "jungle music" and disassociated themselves with it altogether. Well duh, the disco era had the same thing so why didn't they give it the same label when it was popular? And as for the previous arguement during the disco era that it couldn't be black music because white artists made it also, well Teena Marie was white and making funk in the early 1980s and a lot of them, the few that had been briefly exposed to her by hearing her music on someone else's radio, considered her as white trash.

If shit hop and neo stool ever come out of the white mainstream and exist only on black radio, it will be thought of as the same way. The only difference is, now people are so polically correct, they won't say it out loud like they used to. I don't know how they'll be able to call it "jungle music" though. They'll have to come up with some new racist term because those two genres are definitely too slow and dull to come out of the jungle. I know one thing though, I want my "jungle music" back!

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[Edited 11/18/11 11:04am]

vainandy said:

From what I've seen in my lifetime, a lot of white people flip flop between what they consider black music and what they consider as "music that came about as a result of many different groups of people so it shouldn't be labeled as black music". When black music makes it into the white mainstream and dominates it, then they hate labels but when it's strictly played on black radio with the exception of a few black artists who have weakened their music to make it onto white radio, then it's considered black music again.

The disco backlash is a perfect example of it. When disco dominated white radio, it was predominately black artists but a lot of whites didn't like it called black music and would argue that since hispanics and whites made disco also, that it wasn't black music. But when the disco backlash began, it was back to being black music again. The funk of the early 1980s was rhythmic, bass heavy, with pounding drums and it was played on black radio only and when many whites heard it, the same ones that had been into disco before the backlash, they called it "jungle music" and disassociated themselves with it altogether. Well duh, the disco era had the same thing so why didn't they give it the same label when it was popular? And as for the previous arguement during the disco era that it couldn't be black music because white artists made it also, well Teena Marie was white and making funk in the early 1980s and a lot of them, the few that had been briefly exposed to her by hearing her music on someone else's radio, considered her as white trash.

If shit hop and neo stool ever come out of the white mainstream and exist only on black radio, it will be thought of as the same way. The only difference is, now people are so polically correct, they won't say it out loud like they used to. I don't know how they'll be able to call it "jungle music" though. They'll have to come up with some new racist term because those two genres are definitely too slow and dull to come out of the jungle. I know one thing though, I want my "jungle music" back!

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.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:04am]

Vain, I believe it was more of a question form the OP of where certain forms of music styles came from and why it was labeled as such, i.e, what culture or ethnic group it was born out of (originated) or how it was first introduced. Music is meant to be shared, yes of course, but where specific 'forms/styles' of music originated should be respected. For example, if certain forms came from specifici hispanic ethnic groups or middle-eastern ethnic groups or from a culture within one of those groups, then give credit where its due, so people can know where it originated, regardless of anyone's personal prejudices about it, that won't change where certain styles/forms of music originated.

[Edited 11/18/11 13:03pm]

a vague, imprecise "genre" used by white mainstream journalists back in the day

, surely with some racist, condescending contempt...

now it's

Gospel

Blues

Jazz (and its 1000 sub-genres)

Dancehall

R&B

Early Rn'R / Doo Wop

Motown

Soul

Funk

Hendrix-inspired hard-rock

Reagge

Disco

Urban / Electro

Quiet Storm

Hip-Hop

Rap

New Jack

90s British Techno/Jungle/Drum&Bass

Modern R&B

Hip-Pop

my God, that's THE legacy of 20th Century music

"white" music

Folk

Crooners

Country

Mainstream Rn'R /Surf

Pop (beatlesque)

Psychodelia

Heavy-Metal

Punk

New-Wave

Synth Music

Adult-Contemporary/Balladry

Alt Rock

...

[Edited 11/18/11 11:35am]

Timmy84 said:

2elijah said:

vainandy said:

From what I've seen in my lifetime, a lot of white people flip flop between what they consider black music and what they consider as "music that came about as a result of many different groups of people so it shouldn't be labeled as black music". When black music makes it into the white mainstream and dominates it, then they hate labels but when it's strictly played on black radio with the exception of a few black artists who have weakened their music to make it onto white radio, then it's considered black music again.

The disco backlash is a perfect example of it. When disco dominated white radio, it was predominately black artists but a lot of whites didn't like it called black music and would argue that since hispanics and whites made disco also, that it wasn't black music. But when the disco backlash began, it was back to being black music again. The funk of the early 1980s was rhythmic, bass heavy, with pounding drums and it was played on black radio only and when many whites heard it, the same ones that had been into disco before the backlash, they called it "jungle music" and disassociated themselves with it altogether. Well duh, the disco era had the same thing so why didn't they give it the same label when it was popular? And as for the previous arguement during the disco era that it couldn't be black music because white artists made it also, well Teena Marie was white and making funk in the early 1980s and a lot of them, the few that had been briefly exposed to her by hearing her music on someone else's radio, considered her as white trash.

If shit hop and neo stool ever come out of the white mainstream and exist only on black radio, it will be thought of as the same way. The only difference is, now people are so polically correct, they won't say it out loud like they used to. I don't know how they'll be able to call it "jungle music" though. They'll have to come up with some new racist term because those two genres are definitely too slow and dull to come out of the jungle. I know one thing though, I want my "jungle music" back!

.

.

.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:04am]

Vain, I believe it was more of a question of where certain forms of music styles came from and why it was labeled as such, i.e, what culture or ethnic group it was born out of (originated) or how it was first introduced. Music is meant to be shared, yes of course, but where specific 'forms/styles' of music originated should be respected. For example, if certain forms came from specifici hispanic ethnic groups or middle-eastern ethnic groups or from a culture within one of those groups, then give credit where its due, so people can know where it originated, regardless of anyone's personal prejudices about it, that won't change where certain styles/forms of music originated.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:14am]

Oh, I totally agree. That's why I was explaining why a lot of white people refuse to acknowledge something as black music or originating from black people just because other ethnic groups might be making music from that genre. I was just showing how people can be so hypocrital and change their tune once a genre is no longer popular in their mainstream and change their tune again once it becomes popular in their mainstream again.

Just look at how many people think that Prince was some underground artist that only the hip underground crowd had heard of before "Little Red Corvette". Why, because he wasn't played on white radio? Hell, every black person I know had heard of him all the way back to the 1979 "Prince" album era (some even during the "For You" era) and he was a very popular star all throughout the "Dirty Mind" and "Controversy" eras. He was all over black radio for years. There were Prince vs. Rick James feuds among fans of both artists for years. He wasn't on some "hip" radio station or played in some "hip little underground club". Hell, he was very easy to find, just flip the dial over to black radio and there he was. Someone whose music is that popular and is that easy to find doesn't sound like underground to me. But when a black artist, no matter how popular they may be on black radio, isn't known on white radio, all of a sudden they are "underground". I seem to recall some of the guys in my neighborhood calling "Controversy" "jungle music" when they heard me playing it but just three years later, they were all into the "Purple Rain" era and you couldn't tell them shit then. Suddenly, Prince was no longer "jungle music" to them, he was a "Rock God" and they would argue you down if you said otherwise. If you called him a "funk act", they would correct you and say he's "diverse" and that you really should expand your musical tastes and stop using labels and be like them because they like all kinds of music. Oh really, they liked all kinds of music but had never heard of Prince until 1982? Then I'd throw in their face what they said a few years earlier when they heard "Controversy" (which was now a Prince "classic" to them) and they develop amnesia and don't remember that.

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[Edited 11/18/11 11:56am]

^LOL Yea it's like that scene in Do The Right Thing when Vito is talking about ni--ers left & right but Spike Lee points out that all his favorite people are black (Magic-basketball, Prince-music, Eddie Murphy-actor)...They ain't black they're more than black! LMAO

Tortilla said:

theAudience said:

A marketing term.

Music for adventurous listeners


tA

Tribal Records

Could you expound further, please?

How would you categorize the following music?: LINK

Music for adventurous listeners


tA

Tribal Records

vainandy said:

2elijah said:

Vain, I believe it was more of a question of where certain forms of music styles came from and why it was labeled as such, i.e, what culture or ethnic group it was born out of (originated) or how it was first introduced. Music is meant to be shared, yes of course, but where specific 'forms/styles' of music originated should be respected. For example, if certain forms came from specifici hispanic ethnic groups or middle-eastern ethnic groups or from a culture within one of those groups, then give credit where its due, so people can know where it originated, regardless of anyone's personal prejudices about it, that won't change where certain styles/forms of music originated.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:14am]

Oh, I totally agree. That's why I was explaining why a lot of white people refuse to acknowledge something as black music or originating from black people just because other ethnic groups might be making music from that genre. I was just showing how people can be so hypocrital and change their tune once a genre is no longer popular in their mainstream and change their tune again once it becomes popular in their mainstream again.

Just look at how many people think that Prince was some underground artist that only the hip underground crowd had heard of before "Little Red Corvette". Why, because he wasn't played on white radio? Hell, every black person I know had heard of him all the way back to the 1979 "Prince" album era (some even during the "For You" era) and he was a very popular star all throughout the "Dirty Mind" and "Controversy" eras. He was all over black radio for years. There were Prince vs. Rick James feuds among fans of both artists for years. He wasn't on some "hip" radio station or played in some "hip little underground club". Hell, he was very easy to find, just flip the dial over to black radio and there he was. Someone whose music is that popular and is that easy to find doesn't sound like underground to me. But when a black artist, no matter how popular they may be on black radio, isn't known on white radio, all of a sudden they are "underground". I seem to recall some of the guys in my neighborhood calling "Controversy" "jungle music" when they heard me playing it but just three years later, they were all into the "Purple Rain" era and you couldn't tell them shit then. Suddenly, Prince was no longer "jungle music" to them, he was a "Rock God" and they would argue you down if you said otherwise. If you called him a "funk act", they would correct you and say he's "diverse" and that you really should expand your musical tastes and stop using labels and be like them because they like all kinds of music. Oh really, they liked all kinds of music but had never heard of Prince until 1982? Then I'd throw in their face what they said a few years earlier when they heard "Controversy" (which was now a Prince "classic" to them) and they develop amnesia and don't remember that.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/18/11 11:56am]

Agree with your post. It's like when black musicians/artists of the 50s gravitated towards r&b, and away from rock/rockabilly or race music as it was called back in the 50s by non-blacks who didn't understand those music styles, and more white musicians started gravitating towards rock music, as many black musicians, followed other forms. I think that's why many white music lovers who don't know the history of rock or the birth of rock, commonly associate 'rock' with white musicians, not realizing that form of music was played heavily for years, in a different style (i.e. gospel/spiritual rock, blues rock, folk rock,rockabilly, and just plain rock).

I do agree as well that many of Prince's white fans, not all of course, tend to be surprised or dislike when Prince plays tracks of an r&b nature and some tend to devalue that form of music, which he has done from the very beginning of his career. At that same time, he had put out various styles of music with his r&b tracks as well. Tracks like "I Wanna Be Your Lover", "Soft & Wet" were played on black radio, as well as other popular tracks, while other more, rock-based and 'poppy' tracks were mainly played on White radio stations. It's no mistake, that he always did well with his r&b slow, sexy ballads on black radio and with his black audience, moreso than on white radio stations which didn't seem that willing to play those type tracks, and where those stations played his more pop/rock sound tracks.

What I admire about Prince's music is that he refused for years, and stood strong against being pigeon-hold into playing only one form/style of music. He pretty much let everyone know that his racial/ethnic background didn't define or limit him to what type of music he wanted to play or was capable of playing. I have to say though, that this was an interesting thread, regardless of some disagreements, misunderstandings and misinformation that may have surfaced, we can all learn from one another in these type of discussions with shared information and opinions on the topic. .

[Edited 11/18/11 13:06pm]

I am confused! Thought black music is made by black people and there are few exceptions like Teena Marie who could actually sing black music. I think with black music it's even not about the music, it's about the way how you sing.?

bobbyperu said:

Alright, what was I thinking of when I said "black music"? Mostly music by black Americans: jazz/gospel/blues/soul/funk etc...And that can be traced back to Africa. So now I'm answering my own question. I still think Jimi Hendrix is a good example of someone who had a soul/blues background, but then went to England and was heavily influenced by rock. So how "black" was his music? It's people like him and Prince and Sly who fall somewhere in between that happen to be my favorite musicians. Just like white rockers who've been heavily influenced by the blues such as the Stones and Dylan. George Clinton said that in the late 60s white people were playing the blues in a way that black people weren't and Funkadelic was a way of combining the two. I'm a white European, been to Africa but not to the US, so the only way I can find out what "black" means to black Americans is by reading about it. There's this quote by John Lee Hooker that sums it up perfectly in my eyes: "When you play music and you close your eyes, do you see colors? I don't."

I was guessing that you might not be American but I didn't want to make any assumptions. Thanks for clarifying.

So, regarding the US, those genres you mentioned were often described using the catch-all term black music because there really wasn't a more specific term to describe it from an ethnic standpoint and because of a history where absolutely everything was segregated anyway, from water fountains to music to cemeteries. There was even a time when it was called "race music".

Certainly there have always been those like Hendrix who ventured beyond what was considered strictly black music because that's what happens with art and the results of blending different elements can be very compelling.

I see all kinds of images when I hear music even with my eyes closed. I listen to classical music and might imagine a little village in Vienna or I hear The War by Prince and imagine the battle of Armageddon. Kinda silly but more fun for me! On the other hand, an infant may like or dislike certain music without knowing anything about it's origins so Hooker has a point too.

Again, excuse me if I was being cranky earlier and don't pay Timmy no mind either...

...Just teasing Timmy,

babynoz said:

bobbyperu said:

Alright, what was I thinking of when I said "black music"? Mostly music by black Americans: jazz/gospel/blues/soul/funk etc...And that can be traced back to Africa. So now I'm answering my own question. I still think Jimi Hendrix is a good example of someone who had a soul/blues background, but then went to England and was heavily influenced by rock. So how "black" was his music? It's people like him and Prince and Sly who fall somewhere in between that happen to be my favorite musicians. Just like white rockers who've been heavily influenced by the blues such as the Stones and Dylan. George Clinton said that in the late 60s white people were playing the blues in a way that black people weren't and Funkadelic was a way of combining the two. I'm a white European, been to Africa but not to the US, so the only way I can find out what "black" means to black Americans is by reading about it. There's this quote by John Lee Hooker that sums it up perfectly in my eyes: "When you play music and you close your eyes, do you see colors? I don't."

I was guessing that you might not be American but I didn't want to make any assumptions. Thanks for clarifying.

So, regarding the US, those genres you mentioned were often described using the catch-all term black music because there really wasn't a more specific term to describe it from an ethnic standpoint and because of a history where absolutely everything was segregated anyway, from water fountains to music to cemeteries. There was even a time when it was called "race music".

Certainly there have always been those like Hendrix who ventured beyond what was considered strictly black music because that's what happens with art and the results of blending different elements can be very compelling.

I see all kinds of images when I hear music even with my eyes closed. I listen to classical music and might imagine a little village in Vienna or I hear The War by Prince and imagine the battle of Armageddon. Kinda silly but more fun for me! On the other hand, an infant may like or dislike certain music without knowing anything about it's origins so Hooker has a point too.

Again, excuse me if I was being cranky earlier and don't pay Timmy no mind either...

...Just teasing Timmy,

OzlemUcucu said:

I am confused! Thought black music is made by black people and there are few exceptions like Teena Marie who could actually sing black music. I think with black music it's even not about the music, it's about the way how you sing.?

Don't be confused. It's just a way of describing certain styles of music so your observations are just as good as anybody else's,

Oh snap! African electric slide y'all...