TonyVanDam said:

"Black Music" is basically musical genres that were invented by black folks.

prodigalfan said:

TonyVanDam said:

"Black Music" is basically musical genres that were invented by black folks.

right

Correct.

rialb said:

(1) What about traditional European folk music? I do not see much of a black influence there. I would argue that (2)white Country and Western music was an influence on the Blues and early R & B and the Blues/early R & B influenced it right back. Rock music?

1. The poster said POPULAR music. While early European folk music was kinda the 'pop' music of its day, ultimately it did come before the US came to be so that example you pulled up is kinda ridiculous.

2. Country music, itself, came AFTER the creation of the blues not before it.

Also, I was under the impression that rock music's transformation came after the 'British invasion' which meant more of a European influence was introduced to the genre at that point rather than before it you know? Also, from what I remember, the blues is uniquely American and what much of American pop music was based on until more black Americans began to gain access to instruments and music schools. As time went on more 'black music' started to shy away from the blues scale and European influence started to really shape the music, namely swing and jazz. It wasn't until the late 80s and 90s that the triplet swing began making its way back to r&b though as it started moving away from the blues scale.

Ironically enough, hip hop rap music, which is uniquely American, is the closest thing we have right now to the blues. (Which is funny to see black Americans reject it as if it's not even 'real' music.)

Either way, even if the men and women who were slaves at the time, did take influence from the American folk music, there were some obvious influences that they brought to it that still have managed to stick with popular music today and that's the call and response, and the complex polyrhythms that are pretty much absent from European music. In fact those influences coupled with European influences are what make American music so unique in the first place. I think it's pretty awesome that you can combine the best of both and create music that can reach so many out here, even it's based on the changing tastes of its consumers.

Either way, I have seen these arguments way too often and I think that it's important to recognize and educate yourself about the influences of BOTH African and European music on American pop music. They are both highly important not just one over the other.

What Prince did do was get black folks to enjoy rock music more.

Unholyalliance said:

rialb said:

(1) What about traditional European folk music? I do not see much of a black influence there. I would argue that (2)white Country and Western music was an influence on the Blues and early R & B and the Blues/early R & B influenced it right back. Rock music?

1. The poster said POPULAR music. While early European folk music was kinda the 'pop' music of its day, ultimately it did come before the US came to be so that example you pulled up is kinda ridiculous.

2. Country music, itself, came AFTER the creation of the blues not before it.

Also, I was under the impression that rock music's transformation came after the 'British invasion' which meant more of a European influence was introduced to the genre at that point rather than before it you know? Also, from what I remember, the blues is uniquely American and what much of American pop music was based on until more black Americans began to gain access to instruments and music schools. As time went on more 'black music' started to shy away from the blues scale and European influence started to really shape the music, namely swing and jazz. It wasn't until the late 80s and 90s that the triplet swing began making its way back to r&b though as it started moving away from the blues scale.

Ironically enough, hip hop rap music, which is uniquely American, is the closest thing we have right now to the blues. (Which is funny to see black Americans reject it as if it's not even 'real' music.)

Either way, even if the men and women who were slaves at the time, did take influence from the American folk music, there were some obvious influences that they brought to it that still have managed to stick with popular music today and that's the call and response, and the complex polyrhythms that are pretty much absent from European music. In fact those influences coupled with European influences are what make American music so unique in the first place. I think it's pretty awesome that you can combine the best of both and create music that can reach so many out here, even it's based on the changing tastes of its consumers.

Either way, I have seen these arguments way too often and I think that it's important to recognize and educate yourself about the influences of BOTH African and European music on American pop music. They are both highly important not just one over the other.

I agree with what you said, especially about black folks rejecting hip-hop (least the hip hop between early hip-hop, Golden hip-hop and some other great hip-hop that is not mainstream-ized) but especially the one in bold.

2freaky4church1 said:

What Prince did do was get black folks to enjoy rock music more.

=/

What is black music?

Apparently, its a style that many artists want to disassociate themselves from.

What I am sick of is people treating black culture and identity like its some sort of plague that they need to escape from. People think being "different" is somehow being better but its not. Different is just different. I guess its easy to delude oneself into believing otherwise for the sake of wanting to appear to be "special" or "unique" as if to say "I'm not like these others - I'm doing something special". Well, there is so much musical diversity in BLACK MUSIC that if people would spend less time trying to distance themselves and more time making a claim, there would be more respect for the three-dimensional components of the term. The box is bigger than people often see it to be but is only as all-inclusive as those who claim it.

Someone on another thread said that Mishell N'Degeochello is not neo-soul. Really? Maybe Neo-soul is more inclusive than some people think?

That sort of disassociation is rewarded by the mainstream out of spite and some artists buy right into it. Too bad everyone can't see the big picture.

If you told Asains that J-pop or K-pop was real pop, they would give you the finger. If you tried to disassociate Bhangra from Indian culture, they would look at you like you are a fool. It seems like African Americans are the only ones who run from and seem to want to disassociate themselves from their own culture. This topic alone could spawn a 10-page thread. I'll just leave it at what I have said already.

[Edited 11/16/11 9:33am]

Dewrede said:

rialb said:

I have to disagree with you. If you look at popular "black" music of the 20th century gospel/spiritual music is a key part of it. Where did those black artists discover gospel/spiritual music? From their white christian owners during slavery.

What about traditional European folk music? I do not see much of a black influence there. I would argue that white Country and Western music was an influence on the Blues and early R & B and the Blues/early R & B influenced it right back. Rock music? Sure, it started with the Blues but white musicians took it to a different place and put their own spin on it. True, people like Chuck Berry and Little Richard were massively influential but when you fast forward to the '60s white artists started taking rock music to places that black artists never did.

I think it is ridiculous to try to claim that the only true white music is classical. Undeniably black artists made a huge contribution to American popular music of the 20th century but there is a reason that America is known as a melting pot. Black artists influenced and were influenced by white artists, yellow artists, brown artists, red artists and on and on. You just have to compare African music to American music to see the difference. I think it is obvious that white European music and instruments were massively influential on black American musicians.

You never said anything that disagrees with what i said apart from saying you don't see any black influence in european folk music

[Edited 11/16/11 5:45am]

OK, let me try again. In your original post you said:

Well, what exactly do you consider to be "black music" and what are the roots of that "black music?" If we use jazz as an example that is a music form that is widely regarded to be "black" but much of the material that was performed by jazz artists was written by white jews from New York City.

My point was that it is ridiculous to claim that any one race is responsible for popular music. Did black musicians in the late 19th/early 20th century create anything completely new? Of course not. They built on what came before and they were heavily influenced by many other cultures. That's why I made the point that the music created by African Americans is very different than the music that came out of Africa. African Americans had many more diverse influences. I think that the reason that so much popular music came from America is due to the fact that virtually every culture on the planet came there and everything got mixed together. I believe that it is true that there was a time that the contributions of African Americans was unfairly disregarded but now the pendulum seems to have swung too far in the other direction and blacks are being credited with too much while the contributions of other races/cultures are being minimised.

Unholyalliance said:

rialb said:

(1) What about traditional European folk music? I do not see much of a black influence there. I would argue that (2)white Country and Western music was an influence on the Blues and early R & B and the Blues/early R & B influenced it right back. Rock music?

1. The poster said POPULAR music. While early European folk music was kinda the 'pop' music of its day, ultimately it did come before the US came to be so that example you pulled up is kinda ridiculous.

2. Country music, itself, came AFTER the creation of the blues not before it.

Also, I was under the impression that rock music's transformation came after the 'British invasion' which meant more of a European influence was introduced to the genre at that point rather than before it you know? Also, from what I remember, the blues is uniquely American and what much of American pop music was based on until more black Americans began to gain access to instruments and music schools. As time went on more 'black music' started to shy away from the blues scale and European influence started to really shape the music, namely swing and jazz. It wasn't until the late 80s and 90s that the triplet swing began making its way back to r&b though as it started moving away from the blues scale.

Ironically enough, hip hop rap music, which is uniquely American, is the closest thing we have right now to the blues. (Which is funny to see black Americans reject it as if it's not even 'real' music.)

Either way, even if the men and women who were slaves at the time, did take influence from the American folk music, there were some obvious influences that they brought to it that still have managed to stick with popular music today and that's the call and response, and the complex polyrhythms that are pretty much absent from European music. In fact those influences coupled with European influences are what make American music so unique in the first place. I think it's pretty awesome that you can combine the best of both and create music that can reach so many out here, even it's based on the changing tastes of its consumers.

Either way, I have seen these arguments way too often and I think that it's important to recognize and educate yourself about the influences of BOTH African and European music on American pop music. They are both highly important not just one over the other.

Fair enough. Maybe I did make a poor argument but I think we can agree on your last paragraph. I believe that African Americans made an enormous contribution to popular American music but at the same time I do not believe that they were the only people to make an enormous contribution to popular American music.

So now, black folk are getting too much credit?

What's next? The U.S. wasn't really built on the backs of slaves?

jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, rock, house, reggae, disco, hip-hop, soul, and most contemporary forms of American music were invented by BLACK FOLK. That is FACT, and not at liberty for debate. Country was a spin off of blues; techno was a spin off of house and electro. While there were always a few white people participating in any and all given genres, of those specifically named, their origins started in the black community. When rock and roll was "race music", most whites wanted no part of it. Once it became "hip", the effort to write blacks out of it began, as had been done with jazz.

Influence is another topic altogether and influence is very wide and diverse.

I get sick of history revisionists.

Political correctness does not equal truth.

BlaqueKnight said:

So now, black folk are getting too much credit?

What's next? The U.S. wasn't really built on the backs of slaves?

jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, rock, house, reggae, disco, hip-hop, soul, and most contemporary forms of American music were invented by BLACK FOLK. That is FACT, and not at liberty for debate. Country was a spin off of blues; techno was a spin off of house and electro. While there were always a few white people participating in any and all given genres, of those specifically named, their origins started in the black community. When rock and roll was "race music", most whites wanted no part of it. Once it became "hip", the effort to write blacks out of it began, as had been done with jazz.

Influence is another topic altogether and influence is very wide and diverse.

I get sick of history revisionists.

Political correctness does not equal truth.

Damn you sure said a lot with that last statement.

TonyVanDam said:

dancerella said:

Soul

Funk

Rock

R&B

House

Electro

Disco

Did I leave anything out?

Reggae

Dancehall

Jazz

Gospel

Techno

Jungle/Drum & Bass

Hip-Hop/Rap

Calpyso

Soca

and Black African music from various,African ethnic groups.

My interpretation of 'Black music' is a 'generalized' definition of various forms of music (as many forms listed on this thread) originating from or commonly listened to/practiced among various African-American/Black American ethnic/cultural groups, on a large scale and communitywise, which doesn't mean because of its often, generalized definition, that those forms of music cannot be listened to, practiced, admired or learned by those outside that particular group.

BlaqueKnight said:

So now, black folk are getting too much credit?

What's next? The U.S. wasn't really built on the backs of slaves?

jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, rock, house, reggae, disco, hip-hop, soul, and most contemporary forms of American music were invented by BLACK FOLK. That is FACT, and not at liberty for debate. Country was a spin off of blues; techno was a spin off of house and electro. While there were always a few white people participating in any and all given genres, of those specifically named, their origins started in the black community. When rock and roll was "race music", most whites wanted no part of it. Once it became "hip", the effort to write blacks out of it began, as had been done with jazz.

Influence is another topic altogether and influence is very wide and diverse.

I get sick of history revisionists.

Political correctness does not equal truth.

If the opinion is that blacks were solely responsible for every form of popular music then, yes, they are receiving too much credit.

If you would like to argue about slavery I would be happy to do so in the proper forum.

I disagree that black folk solely invented all of those genres and very much disagree that it is a fact. There is a reason that most of those genres originated in the United States and not somewhere in Africa.

Let me ask you this, how would you differentiate between "black" rock music and "white" rock music? Do you see any difference between the black rock acts of the '50s and white rock acts of the late '60s/early '70s? Would you agree that, in general, white artists added a crucial twist to the rock music of the '50s that made it very different?

rialb said:

BlaqueKnight said:

So now, black folk are getting too much credit?

What's next? The U.S. wasn't really built on the backs of slaves?

jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, rock, house, reggae, disco, hip-hop, soul, and most contemporary forms of American music were invented by BLACK FOLK. That is FACT, and not at liberty for debate. Country was a spin off of blues; techno was a spin off of house and electro. While there were always a few white people participating in any and all given genres, of those specifically named, their origins started in the black community. When rock and roll was "race music", most whites wanted no part of it. Once it became "hip", the effort to write blacks out of it began, as had been done with jazz.

Influence is another topic altogether and influence is very wide and diverse.

I get sick of history revisionists.

Political correctness does not equal truth.

If the opinion is that blacks were solely responsible for every form of popular music then, yes, they are receiving too much credit.

If you would like to argue about slavery I would be happy to do so in the proper forum.

I disagree that black folk solely invented all of those genres and very much disagree that it is a fact. There is a reason that most of those genres originated in the United States and not somewhere in Africa.

Let me ask you this, how would you differentiate between "black" rock music and "white" rock music? Do you see any difference between the black rock acts of the '50s and white rock acts of the late '60s/early '70s? Would you agree that, in general, white artists added a crucial twist to the rock music of the '50s that made it very different?

Many of those genres were created out of 'culture' by various Black ethnic groups living in the U.S. each biting off the drum/spiritual music brought from various, enslaved African, ethnic groups working on the plantations in pre-America/America singing about their pain/struggles. Then passed down to the descendants of the slaves born in America working on the plantations/railroads where 'gospel/spititual' songs gave birth to 'blues' music. There is no question that 'blues' was born out of that era. Then post-slavery,you had the 'ragtime' type music of the early 1900s-mid 30s(?), to gospel-rock and blues rock and jazz of the 30s and 40s, and the rockabilly/rock of the 40s/50s giving birth to 'rock' and continued to the early 60s to the rhythm & blues and forward from there. Let's not forget the mixture of the African and South/Central American rhythms of the Caribbean where where salsa, calypso and reggae were born, (calypso just being another form of 'blues' music). Plenty to share.

I don't see how anyone can argue though, that 'blues' music wasn't born off the days of slavery, where the enslaved sang about their pain and struggles, and the enslaved Africans used the rhythms of the drums as a form of communication, so their slaveholders wouldn't know what they were communicating with one another.

[Edited 11/16/11 12:52pm]

rialb said:

If the opinion is that blacks were solely responsible for every form of popular music then, yes, they are receiving too much credit.

If you would like to argue about slavery I would be happy to do so in the proper forum.

I disagree that black folk solely invented all of those genres and very much disagree that it is a fact. There is a reason that most of those genres originated in the United States and not somewhere in Africa.

Let me ask you this, how would you differentiate between "black" rock music and "white" rock music? Do you see any difference between the black rock acts of the '50s and white rock acts of the late '60s/early '70s? Would you agree that, in general, white artists added a crucial twist to the rock music of the '50s that made it very different?

Well then, you would be wrong and there is a MOUNTAIN of history to prove this. There are actual books and records and not just "websites" that others have compiled years after the fact.

As to rock, you are trying to dilute what was said. Rock and roll was invented by black people. If you disagree, you are WRONG. Its not opinion. Its fact.

As I stated, invention and influence are two totally different things. Was there a huge European influence on the genre after the fact? Of course! Did it change? Slowly, but YES, absolutely! Are white people responsible for some of those changes? Hell yes! White people took over the genre. Of course it changed and was maintained by predominantly white culture. I am not trying to deny any of that; I'm simply telling the TRUTH and not allowing it to be rewritten for P.C.'s sake. Those kinds of lies are dangerous and people must be careful not to allow them to go uncited.

What you are trying to do is rewrite history into how it fits your argument and that simply won't fly. Whether you "believe" it to be true doesn't change whether or not it is actually true. Opinions are overrated.

rialb said:

Well, what exactly do you consider to be "black music" and what are the roots of that "black music?" If we use jazz as an example that is a music form that is widely regarded to be "black" but much of the material that was performed by jazz artists was written by white jews from New York City.

What?! Jazz started with black musicians, in the south. It doesn't matter what happened after its creation, you can't just revise its origins as you see fit.

My point was that it is ridiculous to claim that any one race is responsible for popular music. Did black musicians in the late 19th/early 20th century create anything completely new? Of course not. They built on what came before and they were heavily influenced by many other cultures.

Yes, actually there's something called the BLUES SCALE. Look it up. =3

That's why I made the point that the music created by African Americans is very different than the music that came out of Africa. African Americans had many more diverse influences. I think that the reason that so much popular music came from America is due to the fact that virtually every culture on the planet came there and everything got mixed together. I believe that it is true that there was a time that the contributions of African Americans was unfairly disregarded but now the pendulum seems to have swung too far in the other direction and blacks are being credited with too much while the contributions of other races/cultures are being minimised.

The irony is that even though you are accusing people here of minimalizing white American contributions to be American pop music, you are doing the same to black American contributions. I think its important to do a little more research on your end...

[Edited 11/16/11 12:16pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

So now, black folk are getting too much credit?

What's next? The U.S. wasn't really built on the backs of slaves?

jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, rock, house, reggae, disco, hip-hop, soul, and most contemporary forms of American music were invented by BLACK FOLK. That is FACT, and not at liberty for debate. Country was a spin off of blues; techno was a spin off of house and electro. While there were always a few white people participating in any and all given genres, of those specifically named, their origins started in the black community. When rock and roll was "race music", most whites wanted no part of it. Once it became "hip", the effort to write blacks out of it began, as had been done with jazz.

Influence is another topic altogether and influence is very wide and diverse.

I get sick of history revisionists.

Political correctness does not equal truth.

Well said.

Unholyalliance said:

rialb said:

Well, what exactly do you consider to be "black music" and what are the roots of that "black music?" If we use jazz as an example that is a music form that is widely regarded to be "black" but much of the material that was performed by jazz artists was written by white jews from New York City.

What?! Jazz started with black musicians, in the south. It doesn't matter what happened after its creation, you can't just revise its origins as you see fit.

Yes, actually there's something called the BLUES SCALE. Look it up. =3

That's why I made the point that the music created by African Americans is very different than the music that came out of Africa. African Americans had many more diverse influences. I think that the reason that so much popular music came from America is due to the fact that virtually every culture on the planet came there and everything got mixed together. I believe that it is true that there was a time that the contributions of African Americans was unfairly disregarded but now the pendulum seems to have swung too far in the other direction and blacks are being credited with too much while the contributions of other races/cultures are being minimised.

The irony is that even though you are accusing people here of minimalizing white American contributions to be American pop music, you are doing the same to black American contributions. I think its important to do a little more research on your end...

[Edited 11/16/11 12:16pm]

You need to read what I typed more carefully. I'm not saying that white American contributions are being minimalised. I am saying that all non black contributions are being minimalised. Notice I specifically said "the contributions of other races/cultures are being minimised."

When did I not give black Americans credit for their contributions? Please go back and re-read my posts and you will see that I said they were massively influential. The only point I am trying to make is that there were other races that also made important contributions and that blacks were heavily influenced by other cultures. I keep going back to this point but if blacks and blacks alone created popular music then why is African music distictly different from American/African American music?

2freaky4church1 said:

What Prince did do was get black folks to enjoy rock music more.

Billboard Magazine's names for said charts have appeared as follows over the years since 1980:

"Hot Soul Singles/Albums"

"Hot Black Singles/Albums"

"Hot R&B Singles/Albums"

"Hot Hip Hop/R&B Singles/Albums."

I don't really read Billboard much anymore, but thought I would share this info. where it pertains to the discussion. Is our music today even called "Soul" anymore or "R&B?" I've seen the "Urban" tag before, but find it a little bizarre especially for those who live in the more rural areas and who make it their listening preference. TOO MANY labels! When did the music stop being "The Music?" It's both frustrating and annoying. I just say "I listen to _____ (the name or names of the artists.) Makes life simpler that way (for ME anyway.) Peace.

When the musical style can be traced back to African cultural roots, then it's black music. Sometimes a white artist does black music, Mariah is probably the best example.

Didn`t Ike Tuner make the first rock song?

aardvark15 said:

When the musical style can be traced back to African cultural roots, then it's black music. Sometimes a white artist does black music, Mariah is probably the best example.

you are kidding right?

alphastreet said:

aardvark15 said:

When the musical style can be traced back to African cultural roots, then it's black music. Sometimes a white artist does black music, Mariah is probably the best example.

you are kidding right?

No she's pretty much a black woman in a white woman's body musically speaking

you're cute

Excuse Me?

purplefingers said:

aardvark15 said:

TonyVanDam said:

"Black Music" is basically musical genres that were invented by black folks.

Which is all moden pop music since the 1920's ......

[Edited 11/17/11 6:38am]

bobbyperu said:

aardvark15 said:

When the musical style can be traced back to African cultural roots, then it's black music. Sometimes a white artist does black music, Mariah is probably the best example.

"Probably" is the right word. I'd go for Joss Stone. But this was of course my whole point. In what category do these girls fall? Do you look at skin color or musical influences? Anyway I enjoy reading everybody's posts!

This is a good question, because for instance, I considered Teena Marie a Black woman in white skin since she had more "black" in her, than say pre- Bobby Whitney Houston.

So, can Caucasian people play/create "black music" or is it catergorized simply by the color of skin. I personally think it is a combination of ancestory AND culture.

And people like Joss Stone, Simply Red, etc are not in this category. IMHO those are white people who crossed over to Black radio, because they had a sound that black radio liked.

Good analogy:

Madonna as we can clearly see now... Madonna was never "black music" she made music that black people/black radio enjoyed BACK THEN. On the other hand, Teena Marie made "black music".