Unholyalliance said:

midnightmover said:

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

[img:$uid]http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd453/makiener/Irony.jpg[/img:$uid]

I have a lot of knowledge on the subject, son. And I withheld judgement for a long time.

midnightmover said:

There are degrees of subjectivity and your subjectivity is clearly sky high. Even if complete objectivity is impossible, a smart person strives for it regardless and will typically withhold judgement until they have sufficient knowledge. In your case you did the opposite (and are still doing it). You made confident statements about MJ not being a pedo without bothering to investigate and even now you show no interest in gleaming more knowledge. You just casually dismiss Francia without a second thought. This shows real intellectual laziness, but like all MJ defenders you lack the self-awareness to even spot it. If you did realize it, you would be embarrassed.

In short, you need to do some basic research on this subject before you give your opinion.

I'm tired of you, honestly.

I read the official court documents, 2005, and concluded that Arvizo totally confused and lying in their testimony. I do not think that Jackson`s behavior is typical for pedophiles ( I examined, probably more than you, because criminalist - my future profession). Why should I collect all the gossip? I can`t know how the words of Jason's true, it only knew Jackson, Jason and no more than 5-10 people, the rest - speculation and fantasy. His words are not an argument for me.

you think that Jackson is a pedophile, I do not think so. These are two different opinions, each can be theoretically correct, but may be false. Logical? But it is unlikely we will ever know the truth, so each will remain in his opinion.

[Edited 11/14/11 8:02am]

midnightmover said:

There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence out there for Mike's gayness. The hard case to make would be the case for him not being gay. That would really require some effort. You'd really have to strain HARD to ignore all the evidence that is staring you in the face.

And yes - there is a surfeit of evidence for him being sexually attracted to little boys also. Most of the people here have too much to lose by seeing it so they choose not to see it. But the truth is it's staring you in the face. You're just not looking at it.

[Edited 11/11/11 4:42am]

lol No there's not. You are, literally, reading the same shit that all of us are and just coming to your own conclusions as the rest of us. You did not live with the man, fuck the man, sleep with the man or know more than the rest of us. If you think that he is gay you will find the evidence to support it. If you think he was asexual, you will find the evidence to support and etc. There's no actual evidence of anything otherwise this will not be one of the hot topic debates when it comes to MJ's life as the answer will already exist. This has nothing nothing to do with being fan. This has everything to do with having some type of sense. Ultimately, MJ could be anything you want him to be. You just insert yourself into him and he becomes whatever you want him to become.

If there was rock solid evidence of him being attracted to little boys though you would think that someone would have found out already considering how fucking long the brother was under investigation for. I don't know if he went under psychiatric evaluation during the second trial, but if he was I'm pretty sure we all would have heard about it by now. By saying this I can only assume that you have some mindblowing evidence that no one else could come across correct? Something that not even the FB-fucking-I could find. Lili is completely right on what (s)he says and it's been repeated by plenty of people who make a living studying paraphillias rather than some deluded ass poster on a Prince forum who thinks that they hold some ultimate knowledge others are just too blind to see.

Give me a break.

Unholyalliance said:

midnightmover said:

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

[img:$uid]http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd453/makiener/Irony.jpg[/img:$uid]

midnightmover said:

angel345 said:

On a side note, unless yiou have proof that MJ's gay, then you're just here, babbling and flapping your gums. Now run back to your mothership.

The fact that you would need to even ask what the proof is shows you're not a serious person. Any intelligent adult who knows about Mike's life, his acquaintances, his behaviour, does not need to ask where the proof for gayness is, but if you really would like to be educated then by all means ask me again. But I warn you, you will not be able to take it because the reality is CLEARLY painful for MJ fans. Just look at the deafening silence over Jason Pfeiffer and Arnold Klein's revelations for proof of that. Just imagine if Pfeiffer had been a woman. You guys would never shut up about it, but because he's a man you all completely ignore it. You people really need to take a look in the mirror.

P.S. Any smart alec reply to this post and it will be on! I will make a point of clearing several hours to spell out MJ's homosexuality. I won't enjoy it since I don't enjoy conversing with people of low intelligence, but I will do it if pushed. Don't say you haven't been warned.

My, my, my must you resort to this? What a joke. Your spaceship awaits you Bye bye

Oh, dear. I thought when I warned MJ fans not to test me on this subject they would realize that I meant it. But it seems they weren't listening. So I guess I really have no choice but to give them a hard and painful dose of reality. This is going to be fun. It's also going to be time consuming, since there is so much evidence that it will take ages to get through it all.

But we have to start somewhere and the obvious starting point has to be his total lack of sexual interest in women. This was demonstrated in every single phase of his life. Ironically, the clearest proof has actually come in those rare instances when he's tried to prove his heterosexuality by pretending to have romances with women. He didn't do it very often actually, but it's useful to look at the times he did. Let's run through these charades one by one, shall we?

First up was Tatum O' Neal. They went to some clubs together in Mike's late teens, but when Tatum finally took Michael home to get jiggy, Michael, far from being excited as most 18-year-olds would be, was horrified. He covered his face in a state of helpless panic. Tatum got the message and backed off. Their friendship ended soon after. But Mike had learned a lesson. If you're looking for a beard the last thing you want is a sexually aggressive woman who might actually ask for a fuck. He needed a sexually naive virgin, which led him to Beard no. 2

Brooke Shields had played a child prostitute in an early film role, but in reality she was a virgin well into her 20s and famously clueless on the birds and the bees. This made her a perfect beard and both MJ and that other closet homosexual George Michael used her for this purpose. Brooke laughs about it now, saying that she was "so disconnected from the waist down" that she didn't even know what to expect from a man anyway. She has also joked that having been linked with George Michael and MJ in the 80s she knew all about serving as a beard. The following quote also illustrates the non-sexual aspect of her relationship with Michael. She's talking about the years after their initial friendship in the Thriller years.

"As I grew up and started having boyfriends, I would share with him, and he was like a little kid who talked about the bases what first base was, what second base was".

This quote is exactly the kind of smoking gun that MJ fans completely ignore. She's blatantly saying that she only started to have boyfriends after she was hanging with Michael. The message is clear. He wasn't her boyfriend. Never was. There were other comments she made after his death that also gently and euphemistically referred to the fact that they were not lovers, but MJ fans were so clueless they didn't even notice.

After Brooke Michael pretty much gave up on pretending to have girlfriends. Although Sheryl Crow suspected "his people" were behind fake stories in the papers about their being lovers. Sheryl laughs about it and says he would rub her thigh on stage every night, but in truth he didn't even know her name. When the gig was over he would run to his limousine where the young boy from the Pepsi advert was waiting for him.

So the years went by with no girlfriends in his life and then something happened. He was charged by the police for alledged child abuse. The ensuing scandal threatened to destroy his career. Funnily enough he thought it might be a good time to dust off that old beard thing again. So he asked his friend Lisa Marie Presley if she would like to marry him. She agreed. The public smelt a rat. The whole thing seemed like a cynical ploy to divert from the gay pedophile charges. Sure enough, after the scandal died down and he had successfully launched his next album campaign (with Lisa very much part of the PR) she found that Michael became very elusive. She wouldn't see him for months. She had effectively been dumped. A few months later after the inevitable divorce Lisa was a wreck as reality slowly dawned on her. She had been so convinced he was a sweet person that she couldn't believe he would really have used her as a tool in a PR war, but eventually it became impossible not to face that realilty. In one of those smoking gun developments that MJ fans so conveniently forget, she gave interview after interview confirming that the doubters were right. When Oprah Winfrey asked "Did he use you?", she replied directly "All signs point to yes on that".

Next was a marriage so obviously phony that even most MJ fans don't bother to defend it. His marriage to Debbie Rowe was brokered by his close friend and all-round Mr. Fix-It, Dr. Arnold Klein. She worked for Klein in the office as a nurse. This marriage was consummated with a peck on the cheek after which Michael retired to another room with the best man at the wedding - an 8 year old boy (one of Michael's "special friends"). He never even lived with Debbie (who's appearance can most charitably be described as plain). She was paid millions although they hardly saw each other. Her real role will be discussed later (there's a lot to get through here). Anyway, that sham marriage ended after a few years and has never been taken seriously by anyone but the looniest of MJ fans.

After that there were no more phony girlfriends or wives. These were lean years for MJ fans who had to start inventing girlfriends for him. In their bizarre fantasy world he was fucking a Russian fan and towards the end of his life they argued that he was sleeping with his nanny. When Mike died this nonsense was put to rest. His life at that time was forensically scrutinized and there was no woman in it.

Now, everything about this woeful track record with women screams "gay", but, I hear you ask, couldn't it just as easily prove that he was in fact asexual? Well yes, if this was the only evidence we had then it could indeed indicate that he was asexual but - and I hate to break this to you guys - it's not the only evidence we have. There is an awful lot more coming your way. Stay tuned for my next post.

[Edited 11/15/11 5:27am]

LiLi1992 said:

midnightmover said:

There are degrees of subjectivity and your subjectivity is clearly sky high. Even if complete objectivity is impossible, a smart person strives for it regardless and will typically withhold judgement until they have sufficient knowledge. In your case you did the opposite (and are still doing it). You made confident statements about MJ not being a pedo without bothering to investigate and even now you show no interest in gleaming more knowledge. You just casually dismiss Francia without a second thought. This shows real intellectual laziness, but like all MJ defenders you lack the self-awareness to even spot it. If you did realize it, you would be embarrassed.

In short, you need to do some basic research on this subject before you give your opinion.

I'm tired of you, honestly.

I read the official court documents, 2005, and concluded that Arvizo totally confused and lying in their testimony. I do not think that Jackson`s behavior is typical for pedophiles ( I examined, probably more than you, because criminalist - my future profession). Why should I collect all the gossip? I can`t know how the words of Jason's true, it only knew Jackson, Jason and no more than 5-10 people, the rest - speculation and fantasy. His words are not an argument for me.

you think that Jackson is a pedophile, I do not think so. These are two different opinions, each can be theoretically correct, but may be false. Logical? But it is unlikely we will ever know the truth, so each will remain in his opinion.

[Edited 11/14/11 8:02am]

If you read the court documents then you would have known about Jason Francia, so obviously you didn't read them very closely. What you need to do now is ask yourself "If I didn't know that Michael paid millions of dollars in hush-money to this boy then what else don't I know?". That would be the response of an intellectually honest person. Such a person would probably start by reading about Terry George. But I think it's safe to say you don't belong in that category so you won't bother.

^^^^^ That post above was obviously not the post you need to be expecting. THAT post will come tomorrow. Like I said, there's an awful lot of evidence to present, so you guys will have to be patient.

midnightmover said:

Now, everything about this woeful track record with women screams "gay", but, I hear you ask, couldn't it just as easily prove that he was in fact asexual? Well yes, if this was the only evidence we had then it could indeed indicate that he was asexual but - and I hate to break this to you guys - it's not the only evidence we have. There is an awful lot more coming your way. Stay tuned for my next post.

[Edited 11/15/11 5:27am]

You can be gay and asexual at the same time.

midnightmover said:

LiLi1992 said:

I'm tired of you, honestly.

I read the official court documents, 2005, and concluded that Arvizo totally confused and lying in their testimony. I do not think that Jackson`s behavior is typical for pedophiles ( I examined, probably more than you, because criminalist - my future profession). Why should I collect all the gossip? I can`t know how the words of Jason's true, it only knew Jackson, Jason and no more than 5-10 people, the rest - speculation and fantasy. His words are not an argument for me.

you think that Jackson is a pedophile, I do not think so. These are two different opinions, each can be theoretically correct, but may be false. Logical? But it is unlikely we will ever know the truth, so each will remain in his opinion.

[Edited 11/14/11 8:02am]

If you read the court documents then you would have known about Jason Francia, so obviously you didn't read them very closely. What you need to do now is ask yourself "If I didn't know that Michael paid millions of dollars in hush-money to this boy then what else don't I know?". That would be the response of an intellectually honest person. Such a person would probably start by reading about Terry George. But I think it's safe to say you don't belong in that category so you won't bother.

Okay, none of us knows the truth: MJ a pedophile or not, and argue about the unknown - is stupid and childish.
M, can I ask you a question?
Frankly, I think strange your obsession and such an interest in MJ. You're obviously not a fan, but you know much about him. You're a hater?

I am so glad that wasn't anything like any tabloid article I have ever encountered about MJ, ever. In fact, I didn't even find your interpretations of that information to be delusional in the least. The greatest part was the fact that all the information that you presented in your post was out of date. What's even more impressive is that you left MJ's version of some of these events out of your post, completely. I really couldn't have done it better myself. I must applaud you for that. While some people might call you stupid, full of assumptions or even obsessed about the love life of some complete stranger, I think that they're the ones who are wrong.

It's important to believe everything you read, especially when it's some third party account. Never believe anything that comes from the horse's mouth, because that would be ridiculous. The more far removed the person is, the more believable the story/account is. In fact, I think what people forget is that unless you see it with your own two eyes...it is not true. The truth only lies in what is presented us in media, especially from publications that depend on shocking and dramatic stories that provide an escapism to people who go about living their boring lives everyday. We must not and can not even entertain the thought that other things go on behind closed doors away from our eyes, because things like that do not happen in the real world.

So go on. Fight the good fight. You must make it your mission to re-educate us about all of these stories that many fans have already encountered before. Make them seem like you are the only one who ever heard of them...so that you can renew interest in them. It will help make your case that much stronger.

I, totally, look forward to your next post. Just don't forget to post more stories with children. I hear he was with this kid named Macaulay Culkin or something. Apparently, the kid claimed that MJ didn't touch him in court, but I know that only you have the real information on that proves otherwise.

So, is Latoya the ultimate hypocrite or not?

angel345 said:

So, is Latoya the ultimate hypocrite or not?

Is it not a rhetorical question?
Okay, now think about it .... hmm ......... answer: YES!

She is а hypocrite, but I can not accurately calculate the degree of hypocrisy: little or absolutely. Fortunately, I do not know her personally.

LiLi1992 said:

angel345 said:

So, is Latoya the ultimate hypocrite or not?

Is it not a rhetorical question?
Okay, now think about it .... hmm ......... answer: YES!

She is а hypocrite, but I can not accurately calculate the degree of hypocrisy: little or absolutely. Fortunately, I do not know her personally.

I just wanted to see this thread a little on track

angel345 said:

So, is Latoya the ultimate hypocrite or not?

No. I believe that LaToya is a naive woman-child that was too easy to either bullied or pimp out. Her ex-husband knew this all too very.

midnightmover said:

Oh, dear. I thought when I warned MJ fans not to test me on this subject they would realize that I meant it. But it seems they weren't listening. So I guess I really have no choice but to give them a hard and painful dose of reality. This is going to be fun. It's also going to be time consuming, since there is so much evidence that it will take ages to get through it all.

But we have to start somewhere and the obvious starting point has to be his total lack of sexual interest in women. This was demonstrated in every single phase of his life. Ironically, the clearest proof has actually come in those rare instances when he's tried to prove his heterosexuality by pretending to have romances with women. He didn't do it very often actually, but it's useful to look at the times he did. Let's run through these charades one by one, shall we?

First up was Tatum O' Neal. They went to some clubs together in Mike's late teens, but when Tatum finally took Michael home to get jiggy, Michael, far from being excited as most 18-year-olds would be, was horrified. He covered his face in a state of helpless panic. Tatum got the message and backed off. Their friendship ended soon after. But Mike had learned a lesson. If you're looking for a beard the last thing you want is a sexually aggressive woman who might actually ask for a fuck. He needed a sexually naive virgin, which led him to Beard no. 2

Brooke Shields had played a child prostitute in an early film role, but in reality she was a virgin well into her 20s and famously clueless on the birds and the bees. This made her a perfect beard and both MJ and that other closet homosexual George Michael used her for this purpose. Brooke laughs about it now, saying that she was "so disconnected from the waist down" that she didn't even know what to expect from a man anyway. She has also joked that having been linked with George Michael and MJ in the 80s she knew all about serving as a beard. The following quote also illustrates the non-sexual aspect of her relationship with Michael. She's talking about the years after their initial friendship in the Thriller years.

"As I grew up and started having boyfriends, I would share with him, and he was like a little kid who talked about the bases what first base was, what second base was".

This quote is exactly the kind of smoking gun that MJ fans completely ignore. She's blatantly saying that she only started to have boyfriends after she was hanging with Michael. The message is clear. He wasn't her boyfriend. Never was. There were other comments she made after his death that also gently and euphemistically referred to the fact that they were not lovers, but MJ fans were so clueless they didn't even notice.

After Brooke Michael pretty much gave up on pretending to have girlfriends. Although Sheryl Crow suspected "his people" were behind fake stories in the papers about their being lovers. Sheryl laughs about it and says he would rub her thigh on stage every night, but in truth he didn't even know her name. When the gig was over he would run to his limousine where the young boy from the Pepsi advert was waiting for him.

So the years went by with no girlfriends in his life and then something happened. He was charged by the police for alledged child abuse. The ensuing scandal threatened to destroy his career. Funnily enough he thought it might be a good time to dust off that old beard thing again. So he asked his friend Lisa Marie Presley if she would like to marry him. She agreed. The public smelt a rat. The whole thing seemed like a cynical ploy to divert from the gay pedophile charges. Sure enough, after the scandal died down and he had successfully launched his next album campaign (with Lisa very much part of the PR) she found that Michael became very elusive. She wouldn't see him for months. She had effectively been dumped. A few months later after the inevitable divorce Lisa was a wreck as reality slowly dawned on her. She had been so convinced he was a sweet person that she couldn't believe he would really have used her as a tool in a PR war, but eventually it became impossible not to face that realilty. In one of those smoking gun developments that MJ fans so conveniently forget, she gave interview after interview confirming that the doubters were right. When Oprah Winfrey asked "Did he use you?", she replied directly "All signs point to yes on that".

Next was a marriage so obviously phony that even most MJ fans don't bother to defend it. His marriage to Debbie Rowe was brokered by his close friend and all-round Mr. Fix-It, Dr. Arnold Klein. She worked for Klein in the office as a nurse. This marriage was consummated with a peck on the cheek after which Michael retired to another room with the best man at the wedding - an 8 year old boy (one of Michael's "special friends"). He never even lived with Debbie (who's appearance can most charitably be described as plain). She was paid millions although they hardly saw each other. Her real role will be discussed later (there's a lot to get through here). Anyway, that sham marriage ended after a few years and has never been taken seriously by anyone but the looniest of MJ fans.

After that there were no more phony girlfriends or wives. These were lean years for MJ fans who had to start inventing girlfriends for him. In their bizarre fantasy world he was fucking a Russian fan and towards the end of his life they argued that he was sleeping with his nanny. When Mike died this nonsense was put to rest. His life at that time was forensically scrutinized and there was no woman in it.

Now, everything about this woeful track record with women screams "gay", but, I hear you ask, couldn't it just as easily prove that he was in fact asexual? Well yes, if this was the only evidence we had then it could indeed indicate that he was asexual but - and I hate to break this to you guys - it's not the only evidence we have. There is an awful lot more coming your way. Stay tuned for my next post.

[Edited 11/15/11 5:27am]

Waste your time some more why don't you

And are you just going to ignore what LMP said about the marriage being real? Purposefully left that out?

TonyVanDam said:

angel345 said:

So, is Latoya the ultimate hypocrite or not?

No. I believe that LaToya is a naive woman-child that was too easy to either bullied or pimp out. Her ex-husband knew this all too very.

Well, as you know, the public is always going to let what she did to MJ hang over her head, possibly for life. If MJ forgave her, then that counts for something.