TonyVanDam said:

angel345 said:

She has envied MJ's fame for years. If you look at a YouTube video of him and Latoya, she admitted openly that she wish to have his fame. This video was recorded around the time of "Thriller". It's a family video at their home.

Many years ago, Janet admitted she wanted to be the first artist to ever take down Michael's world record of 40+ million albums copied sold (for Thriller, which has since been 50+ since his death), and no one has called her out for being envy of Michael no one time through out her career as a celebrity.

But yet, we in general love to only give a proper bitching about Jermaine AND LaToya for being envy of Michael in their own way? Oh give me a break fellow orgers!

When I go to other sites, some say that "Thriller" has currently sold between 100-100 million albums worldwide. I don't know who is correct.

alphastreet said:

TonyVanDam said:

Many years ago, Janet admitted she wanted to be the first artist to ever take down Michael's world record of 40+ million albums copied sold (for Thriller, which has since been 50+ since his death), and no one has called her out for being envy of Michael no one time through out her career as a celebrity.

But yet, we in general love to only give a proper bitching about Jermaine AND LaToya for being envy of Michael in their own way? Oh give me a break fellow orgers!

She said it after her Virgin contract, the biggest in the industry up there with MJ`s Sony one. She didn`t have R&B hit albums like Jermaine prior to statements like that. Jermaine was saying he was more talented than him and shit like that in the 80`s, Janet wasn`t arrogant when she said it, she was competitive in a friendly way. She had a chance too, she had the best seller of 1990 at one point and was on fire.

I agree. The competition between them were friendlier.

lol the only reason people didn't bitch about Janet doing it was because she worked for her's. La Toya, not so much. It's nice to have ambition to top someone else but when you don't put the WORK in it or more work into it or at least get the RIGHT people it's not gonna work. That's why Jermaine and La Toya failed where Janet by comparison succeeded.

angel345 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Many years ago, Janet admitted she wanted to be the first artist to ever take down Michael's world record of 40+ million albums copied sold (for Thriller, which has since been 50+ since his death), and no one has called her out for being envy of Michael no one time through out her career as a celebrity.

But yet, we in general love to only give a proper bitching about Jermaine AND LaToya for being envy of Michael in their own way? Oh give me a break fellow orgers!

When I go to other sites, some say that "Thriller" has currently sold between 100-100 million albums worldwide. I don't know who is correct.

lol you mean 65-110 million.

Didn`t the WMA`s say 100 or 110 million....

alphastreet said:

Didn`t the WMA`s say 100 or 110 million....

104 million.

Timmy84 said:

alphastreet said:

Didn`t the WMA`s say 100 or 110 million....

104 million.

Yeah I definitely remember hearing something just above 100 million...I can`t believe his jacket was ripped to a thousand pieces by the audience

alphastreet said:

Timmy84 said:

104 million.

Yeah I definitely remember hearing something just above 100 million...I can`t believe his jacket was ripped to a thousand pieces by the audience

Michael probably thought the jacket was shit anyway.

Lets say for the sake of a waste argument that Jermaine AND LaToya would have received the same kind of success as Michael OR Janet.

Do you think either one of those 2 siblings could have handle the problems better, worse, OR about the same as Michael AND Janet did?!?

Jermaine? Yes, to an extent, because he was already experience with receiving "groupie love" and rabid fans/stans since the Jackson 5 days.

LaToya? Hell no! I strongly believe poor LaToya would not have been psychological strong enough to deal with the kinds of drama that Michael OR Janet had to deal with.

[Edited 11/10/11 22:12pm]

Timmy84 said:

alphastreet said:

Yeah I definitely remember hearing something just above 100 million...I can`t believe his jacket was ripped to a thousand pieces by the audience

Michael probably thought the jacket was shit anyway.

It must have been if it could be ripped like a piece of paper

Tony: Jermaine had a chance, he was doing well for a long time, and Word To The Badd killed his career. He even had r&b single of the year in 1980, and Do What You Do was huge, but he got very lazy, and most of all, ego affected him.

As for Latoya, she was way more sheltered than MJ and Janet, and we all know what they dealt with. She didn`t have the street smarts or skills to be in the game, even though she had a few good cuts time to time. She could have been a model or done something around fashion though, she was pretty.

vainandy said:

.....Whew, OK I'm back now. Anyway.......back to Michael..... ......I've tried to understand Michael and the way he turned out and from what I've observed is, as soon as he was no longer a small child and was a teenager, he seemed gay. Even before "Off The Wall" when he started looking pretty, during the "Enjoy Yourself" era and "Destiny" eras when he would finish singing and they would interview him, his voice sounded feminine or gay.

Yes!

But we all know that this is not his real voice.
I think that his appearance and his voice - marketing courses and no more than that.
His appearance unisex + voice type unisex = the most successful artist of all time.
I think that appearance MJ does not reflect his true world view.

Fake voice, fake looks, fake behavior .... I do not know how it is possible to make adequate findings about his orientation.
MJ will always be a mystery.

[Edited 11/11/11 0:22am]

LOL, sure I believe Janet wanted to outsell "thriller". Who wouldn't? Iam sure Michael was as suprised as anyone when "control" took off so big too.

Sibling rivalry and all that. If you have siblings you know it is.

Very competitive many siblings are with eachother in general but the love is still there deep down.

thesexofit said:

LOL, sure I believe Janet wanted to outsell "thriller". Who wouldn't? Iam sure Michael was as suprised as anyone when "control" took off so big too.

Sibling rivalry and all that. If you have siblings you know it is.

Very competitive many siblings are with eachother in general but the love is still there deep down.

Yeah he was! But adjusted well by RN and even wanted to work with her and was inspired by it for Dangerous.

LiLi1992 said:

vainandy said:

.....Whew, OK I'm back now. Anyway.......back to Michael..... ......I've tried to understand Michael and the way he turned out and from what I've observed is, as soon as he was no longer a small child and was a teenager, he seemed gay. Even before "Off The Wall" when he started looking pretty, during the "Enjoy Yourself" era and "Destiny" eras when he would finish singing and they would interview him, his voice sounded feminine or gay.

Yes!

But we all know that this is not his real voice.
I think that his appearance and his voice - marketing courses and no more than that.
His appearance unisex + voice type unisex = the most successful artist of all time.
I think that appearance MJ does not reflect his true world view.

Fake voice, fake looks, fake behavior .... I do not know how it is possible to make adequate findings about his orientation.
MJ will always be a mystery.

[Edited 11/11/11 0:22am]

I stop equating voice with "orientation" a while ago.

angel345 said:

When I go to other sites, some say that "Thriller" has currently sold between 100-100 million albums worldwide. I don't know who is correct.

Sales of "Thriller" around 71-72 million copies.
According to official figures (total for all countries) - it's about 65 million + ballpark figures for unaccounted markets.
Does anyone really believe in 100 million?? Naive.

Related: LaToya - hypocrite, in my opinion.

angel345 said:

midnightmover said:

That's like saying my claim of being whizzed up by aliens onto the mothership is supported by the local loon who sleeps on the park bench therefore my statement is credible.

So, I guess her mother is a loon. Is that what you're saying? I guess it was all in MJ's head when he feared for his life. Well, the trial is over, and Murray was convicted, so I'll leave it at that.

[Edited 11/10/11 11:29am]

His mother is a Jehovah's Witness. 'Nuff said.

And if you believe he was murdered then I think you could use some help too.

Unholyalliance said:

I guess speculating is fun, but I really don't understand how some of you can say the most outlandish things and be so firm in your stance even though none of you were there. I guess one can go "There's so much info out there already..", but getting bits and pieces here and there doesn't give you the entire picture. I think that, if anything, all of this has probably given me more indepth look & understanding into the posters who are writing some of this stuff.

There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence out there for Mike's gayness. The hard case to make would be the case for him not being gay. That would really require some effort. You'd really have to strain HARD to ignore all the evidence that is staring you in the face.

And yes - there is a surfeit of evidence for him being sexually attracted to little boys also. Most of the people here have too much to lose by seeing it so they choose not to see it. But the truth is it's staring you in the face. You're just not looking at it.

[Edited 11/11/11 4:42am]

midnightmover said:

Unholyalliance said:

I guess speculating is fun, but I really don't understand how some of you can say the most outlandish things and be so firm in your stance even though none of you were there. I guess one can go "There's so much info out there already..", but getting bits and pieces here and there doesn't give you the entire picture. I think that, if anything, all of this has probably given me more indepth look & understanding into the posters who are writing some of this stuff.

There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence out there for Mike's gayness. The hard case to make would be the case for him not being gay. That would really require some effort. You'd really have to strain HARD to ignore all the evidence that is staring you in the face.

And yes - there is a surfeit of evidence for him being sexually attracted to little boys also. Most of the people here have too much to lose by seeing it so they choose not to see it. But the truth is it's staring you in the face. You're just not looking at it.

[Edited 11/11/11 4:42am]

What kind of evidence for Mike's gayness?
Seriously?
I've never seen any interest in other men from the part of MJ, even when he was very young.

His manner was a fake, his voice and appearance, too! To be unisex in all - his style as an artist. How do you know that it is his essence?

And what evidence of his sexual attraction to young boys? But please, let's not argue that this is not normal for a grown man sleeping with children ... blah blah blah, because nobody here is saying that MJ was normal, so strange to assess Michael accepted in the community norms, he is clearly different from most people ...
Another is not always a criminal ... is it not so?

midnightmover said:

angel345 said:

So, I guess her mother is a loon. Is that what you're saying? I guess it was all in MJ's head when he feared for his life. Well, the trial is over, and Murray was convicted, so I'll leave it at that.

[Edited 11/10/11 11:29am]

His mother is a Jehovah's Witness. 'Nuff said.

And if you believe he was murdered then I think you could use some help too.

On a side note, unless yiou have proof that MJ's gay, then you're just here, babbling and flapping your gums. Now run back to your mothership.

LiLi1992 said:

angel345 said:

When I go to other sites, some say that "Thriller" has currently sold between 100-100 million albums worldwide. I don't know who is correct.

Sales of "Thriller" around 71-72 million copies.
According to official figures (total for all countries) - it's about 65 million + ballpark figures for unaccounted markets.
Does anyone really believe in 100 million?? Naive.

Related: LaToya - hypocrite, in my opinion.

So now there are some sales that are unaccounted for. Is that what you're saying. If so, then you're not absolutely sure how many albums "Thriller" sold, correct? What if "Thriller" sold 100 million copies, then what?

Timmy84 said:

angel345 said:

When I go to other sites, some say that "Thriller" has currently sold between 100-100 million albums worldwide. I don't know who is correct.

lol you mean 65-110 million.

It could have been in that range of sales. Excuse my typo error:lol: I meant between 100-110 million

Unholyalliance said:

I really thought that LaToya just released a new song by this name.

Thats what I thought too...the jokes on us I guess.

angel345 said:

So now there are some sales that are unaccounted for. Is that what you're saying. If so, then you're not absolutely sure how many albums "Thriller" sold, correct? What if "Thriller" sold 100 million copies, then what?

unaccounted sales - markets of poor / underdeveloped countries, where sales of music albums consistently low.
Most people are poor or destitute, so it is hardly Thriller - a commodity essential to them.
Therefore, according to numerous expert estimates on undocumented markets account for a maximum of + 20%, so I'm sure absolutely that sales of Thriller is not more than 75 million copies worldwide.

Although free download Thriller is quite possible even much more than 100 million people. Every person interested to hear the most successful album of all time, at least for the overall development.

[Edited 11/13/11 11:34am]

LiLi1992 said:

midnightmover said:

There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence out there for Mike's gayness. The hard case to make would be the case for him not being gay. That would really require some effort. You'd really have to strain HARD to ignore all the evidence that is staring you in the face.

And yes - there is a surfeit of evidence for him being sexually attracted to little boys also. Most of the people here have too much to lose by seeing it so they choose not to see it. But the truth is it's staring you in the face. You're just not looking at it.

[Edited 11/11/11 4:42am]

What kind of evidence for Mike's gayness?
Seriously?
I've never seen any interest in other men from the part of MJ, even when he was very young.

His manner was a fake, his voice and appearance, too! To be unisex in all - his style as an artist. How do you know that it is his essence?

And what evidence of his sexual attraction to young boys? But please, let's not argue that this is not normal for a grown man sleeping with children ... blah blah blah, because nobody here is saying that MJ was normal, so strange to assess Michael accepted in the community norms, he is clearly different from most people ...
Another is not always a criminal ... is it not so?

Aren't you the one who said MJ wasn't a child molester, even though you'd never heard about Jason Francia? Then when presented with his story, said you weren't interested in such "details" "since I've already made up my mind that MJ is innocent"? Yeah, that was you. That tells us that you have no interest in truth since you form an opinion before you've even heard evidence and then turn a blind eye to new evidence since - by your own admission - you've already made up your mind. You have no business pretending to be objective or reasonable.

angel345 said:

midnightmover said:

His mother is a Jehovah's Witness. 'Nuff said.

And if you believe he was murdered then I think you could use some help too.

On a side note, unless yiou have proof that MJ's gay, then you're just here, babbling and flapping your gums. Now run back to your mothership.

The fact that you would need to even ask what the proof is shows you're not a serious person. Any intelligent adult who knows about Mike's life, his acquaintances, his behaviour, does not need to ask where the proof for gayness is, but if you really would like to be educated then by all means ask me again. But I warn you, you will not be able to take it because the reality is CLEARLY painful for MJ fans. Just look at the deafening silence over Jason Pfeiffer and Arnold Klein's revelations for proof of that. Just imagine if Pfeiffer had been a woman. You guys would never shut up about it, but because he's a man you all completely ignore it. You people really need to take a look in the mirror.

P.S. Any smart alec reply to this post and it will be on! I will make a point of clearing several hours to spell out MJ's homosexuality. I won't enjoy it since I don't enjoy conversing with people of low intelligence, but I will do it if pushed. Don't say you haven't been warned.

midnightmover said:

LiLi1992 said:

What kind of evidence for Mike's gayness?
Seriously?
I've never seen any interest in other men from the part of MJ, even when he was very young.

His manner was a fake, his voice and appearance, too! To be unisex in all - his style as an artist. How do you know that it is his essence?

And what evidence of his sexual attraction to young boys? But please, let's not argue that this is not normal for a grown man sleeping with children ... blah blah blah, because nobody here is saying that MJ was normal, so strange to assess Michael accepted in the community norms, he is clearly different from most people ...
Another is not always a criminal ... is it not so?

Aren't you the one who said MJ wasn't a child molester, even though you'd never heard about Jason Francia? Then when presented with his story, said you weren't interested in such "details" "since I've already made up my mind that MJ is innocent"? Yeah, that was you. That tells us that you have no interest in truth since you form an opinion before you've even heard evidence and then turn a blind eye to new evidence since - by your own admission - you've already made up your mind. You have no business pretending to be objective or reasonable.

I believe that MJ was a very strange man, but he was not a child molester.
I am a student at the university, on criminology faculty, Jackson does not look like a pedophile, his behavior is unusual for pedophiles. Pedophiles always build their relationships with children on the type of "father-son" or "mentor", but never the type of "friends of the same age." They are usually mentally normal at first glance people, without anomalies, which avoid appearing in public places in the company of children.
Read at least Lombroso "criminal man".
What kind of truth are you talking about??
We do not know and can not know the truth, it is impossible!
I think that MJ is not a pedophile, you can stay with your opinion and enjoy it. It is your right, but I have a right to think as I feel. Sorry!

LiLi1992 said:

midnightmover said:

Aren't you the one who said MJ wasn't a child molester, even though you'd never heard about Jason Francia? Then when presented with his story, said you weren't interested in such "details" "since I've already made up my mind that MJ is innocent"? Yeah, that was you. That tells us that you have no interest in truth since you form an opinion before you've even heard evidence and then turn a blind eye to new evidence since - by your own admission - you've already made up your mind. You have no business pretending to be objective or reasonable.

I believe that MJ was a very strange man, but he was not a child molester.
I am a student at the university, on criminology faculty, Jackson does not look like a pedophile, his behavior is unusual for pedophiles. Pedophiles always build their relationships with children on the type of "father-son" or "mentor", but never the type of "friends of the same age." They are usually mentally normal at first glance people, without anomalies, which avoid appearing in public places in the company of children.
Read at least Lombroso "criminal man".
What kind of truth are you talking about??
We do not know and can not know the truth, it is impossible!
I think that MJ is not a pedophile, you can stay with your opinion and enjoy it. It is your right, but I have a right to think as I feel. Sorry!

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

midnightmover said:

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

I can not be objective, but always try to be impartial.
No one person can not be objective a priori, because absolutely every single opinion is subjective.
"opinion" does not happen by itself. Opinion belongs to a particular person, is tied to the subject and therefore not objective (learn the basics of philosophy).
Objective are just the facts (the grass is green, outdoor rain, etc.), but no opinion.

I have not heard about Jason, because I'm not so huge fan of MJ (just a fan of his work), so i am not interested in all the details of his personal life. I do not think Jackson is a pedophile, because I know the characteristics of a typical pedophile, Jackson behaved atypically for pedophiles.
How do you know that Jason is not lying? How can you know?
I do not care, you trust my posts or not, we are not friends, why should it worry me?? Let each one remain with their opinions, because the truth does not know any one of us.
PEACE!

LiLi1992 said:

midnightmover said:

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

I can not be objective, but always try to be impartial.
No one person can not be objective a priori, because absolutely every single opinion is subjective.
"opinion" does not happen by itself. Opinion belongs to a particular person, is tied to the subject and therefore not objective (learn the basics of philosophy).
Objective are just the facts (the grass is green, outdoor rain, etc.), but no opinion.

I have not heard about Jason, because I'm not so huge fan of MJ (just a fan of his work), so i am not interested in all the details of his personal life. I do not think Jackson is a pedophile, because I know the characteristics of a typical pedophile, Jackson behaved atypically for pedophiles.
How do you know that Jason is not lying? How can you know?
I do not care, you trust my posts or not, we are not friends, why should it worry me?? Let each one remain with their opinions, because the truth does not know any one of us.
PEACE!

There are degrees of subjectivity and your subjectivity is clearly sky high. Even if complete objectivity is impossible, a smart person strives for it regardless and will typically withhold judgement until they have sufficient knowledge. In your case you did the opposite (and are still doing it). You made confident statements about MJ not being a pedo without bothering to investigate and even now you show no interest in gleaming more knowledge. You just casually dismiss Francia without a second thought. This shows real intellectual laziness, but like all MJ defenders you lack the self-awareness to even spot it. If you did realize it, you would be embarrassed.

In short, you need to do some basic research on this subject before you give your opinion.

midnightmover said:

Your posts would have more credibility if you hadn't already revealed yourself to be clueless on this subject in that other thread. You'd never even heard of Jason Francia for fuck sake.

When I told you about it you said you weren't interested in such "details" since you'd already made up your mind. A smart person withholds their judgement until they actually have some knowledge, and if MAJOR new knowledge comes their way then they reassess. You failed this test. Like I said, you have no business pretending to be objective.

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