HonestMan13 said:

Timmy84 said:

That's something that's been bothering me about the Time saga. When Jam & Lewis were sacked, why didn't the other members join them if they felt that Prince was doing them dirty? Why stay around if they weren't scared to topple him onstage? Me thinks they needed Prince then more than probably Jam & Lewis did so Jam & Lewis went on to be top producers. It wasn't until the late 1980s that portions of the group returned to work together (Jam & Lewis producing "Fishnet" for Morris).

That's a telling move right there. Them dudes knew which side the bread was buttered. Jam & Lewis had done one hot track at that point. That wasn't going to feed 7 dudes and their families. Everyone made an adult decision for their own best interests. Prince hardly locked them in the basement and forced them to play shows. To believe the bragging they do on wax these dudes were getting laid beyond anything they ever knew and doing major venue shows. Sounds like hell to me! Even jam said the material Prince was giving them was top notch!

Yeah it wasn't like Prince was this dictator or something.

phunkdaddy said:

whitechocolatebrotha said:

Sounds like L.M.S. (Little Man Syndrome.) It's okay...The Time are STILL workin' it! Where's the little man? Givin' away free CD's in other countries??? Please...get ovah yo'self.

Not to add to this Time Prince debate but i was in Target today and they had a shitload

of Lotusflow3r cd's they were trying to unload for 4.99

Compare their 5th studio album with Prince's 5th studio album. Somehow he managed to get to his within 4 years. It took them 30.

HonestMan13 said:

phunkdaddy said:

Not to add to this Time Prince debate but i was in Target today and they had a shitload

of Lotusflow3r cd's they were trying to unload for 4.99

Compare their 5th studio album with Prince's 5th studio album. Somehow he managed to get to his within 4 years. It took them 30.

What an oversimplification.

Timmy84 said:

That's something that's been bothering me about the Time saga. When Jam & Lewis were sacked, why didn't the other members join them if they felt that Prince was doing them dirty? Why stay around if they weren't scared to topple him onstage? Me thinks they needed Prince then more than probably Jam & Lewis did so Jam & Lewis went on to be top producers. It wasn't until the late 1980s that portions of the group returned to work together (Jam & Lewis producing "Fishnet" for Morris).

You gotta remember that,Jam and Lewis were fired when filming for 'Purple Rain' was about to begin.Can you imagine what would have happened if the entire band left his camp at that point? Prince would have been screwed Vanity had just left and he had to scramble to replace her.Imagine if he had to quickly create an entire new 'Time' band for the movie,lol.

Prince should be happy that the other members didn't leave at that point He needed them.

lol good points.

Interestingly,in a 1990 Rolling Stone interview,Prince denied that he fired Jam and Lewis

At first it seems strange for to hear Prince talking in such fond and nostalgic terms about Day and the band. Day left the Minneapolis fold right after Purple Rain, with some nasty words about the boss's supposedly dictatorial ways. Now, Prince says, "I honestly don't remember how we got it together again."

Day's old charge of overbossing, however, brings a quirkier and crosser memory. "That whole thing came from my early days, when I was working with a lot of people who weren't exactly designed for their jobs," Prince says. "I had to do a lot, and I had to have control, because a lot of them didn't know exactly what was needed."

The most often-told tale involves Prince firing the then-unknown Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis from the Time in 1982. Jam and Lewis, all parties now agree, left a Time tour on a day off to produce their first record for the SOS Band. A freak snowstorm in Atlanta grounded them for an extra day, and the two missed a gig. When Jam and Lewis returned, they were summarily fired. Jobless, the two missed Purple Rain, so they set up as producers and went scrounging for clients. In the years since, they've produced everyone from Janet Jackson to Herb Alpert, becoming the other superpower on the Minneapolis music scene.

"I'm playing the bad guy," says Prince, "but I didn't fire Jimmy and Terry. Morris asked me what I would do in his situation. Remember, it was his band.

Despite the rap, Prince says, he harbors no ill will toward the now-famous producers working across town from Paisley Park at their Flyte Time studios. "We're friends," he says. "We know each other like brothers. Jimmy always gave me a lot of credit for getting things going in Minneapolis, and I'm hip to that. Terry's more aloof, but I know that." And their music? "Terry and Jimmy aren't into the Minneapolis sound," Prince says. "They're into making every single one of their records a hit. Not that there's anything wrong with that, we're just different."

BlaqueKnight said:

HonestMan13 said:

Compare their 5th studio album with Prince's 5th studio album. Somehow he managed to get to his within 4 years. It took them 30.

What an oversimplification.

No more so than comparing a work that they had 21 years to work on to an artist who has been consistently releasing music and evolving in that time.

SoulAlive said:

Prince should be happy that the other members didn't leave at that point He needed them.

If they really believed that they as a group could destroy Prince then it should've been easy to get up from that table and walk out. Forget about 'destroying' Prince if they wanted more control over themselves then they could've gotten up. Morris said they were making about 100 dollars a gig at that point plus the extra for backing up Vanity 6. At least Jellybean was honest about it and said he needed the gig for his family(adult decision in his best interest).

If they left then Purple Rain wouldn't have been the same or maybe not even made at all but Prince was riding high off of 1999 which stayed on the charts well into 1984. His trajectory was still upward.

Jam & Lewis would've still wanted to do side gig as producers which would've stressed the band especially since they would've had to pick up any of the duties that Prince once did for them.

BlaqueKnight said:

To keep it real, Alex is a better vocalist than Morris, so him fronting the Time wouldn't have been that bad. His solo material is Time-esque anyway, considering J&T produced a lot of it.

HonestMan13 said:

Pokeno4Money said:

HotGritz said:

AND

I still can't see it.

Andre Cymone wrote and produced four songs for Evelyn, why can't you see Morris doing the same?

The same reason I can't see Andre Cymone as a headliner. Different strengths and appeal. Morris is meant to be a band leader and Andre is meant to be a songwriter/producer.

Lets look at this situation. if morris had left b4 purple rain? would he be more famous? hell no! and he left right after purple rain becoz purple rain opened more doors for him. plus lets not forget he has 7 kids to feed from 5 different women

monte left with jam and lewis

jesse johnson left just b4 purple rain

and the rest stayed on some to be part of the family.

so these people did take advantage of the oppurtunities but they didnt have much luck

apart from jam and lewis.

jesse to a much lesser extent.

morris solo career the album didnt sell much

Andre also left becoz he wanted to he as big as prince. He signed a similar record deal as prince which allowed him to create side projects but his success was marginal. Became more as a producer for his wife jody watley.

FYI the new time album didnt make it to the top 50 so the sales were below 8k its might be possible to get the exact sales tomorrow

[Edited 10/25/11 16:40pm]

phunkdaddy said:

whitechocolatebrotha said:

Sounds like L.M.S. (Little Man Syndrome.) It's okay...The Time are STILL workin' it! Where's the little man? Givin' away free CD's in other countries??? Please...get ovah yo'self.

Not to add to this Time Prince debate but i was in Target today and they had a shitload

of Lotusflow3r cd's they were trying to unload for 4.99

lotusflow3er has already crossed 500,000 in the US a while back i am not sure what the total is now

HonestMan13 said:

phunkdaddy said:

Not to add to this Time Prince debate but i was in Target today and they had a shitload

of Lotusflow3r cd's they were trying to unload for 4.99

Compare their 5th studio album with Prince's 5th studio album. Somehow he managed to get to his within 4 years. It took them 30.

What does this have to do with my comment about Target having a lot of Lotusflow3r cd's to

unload?

I can dig u being a die hard Prince fan but you're taking your defense of Prince way

too far.

Funny how this has evolved into a "Prince gave them A, B and C -- he couldn't have been that bad."

Rebutting this might be a foolhardy cause, but I would submit the following:

1) Jesse's "Video Soul" interview with Donnie Simpson included the explanation that Prince regularly would cancel The Time's opening act at big venues that were to be attended by important music execs -- all out of fear they would upstage him.

2) The point that they were seven to Prince's singular act misses the point that even he has made over the years: The Time, as demonstrated in "Purple Rain," were the perfect foil for Prince. But, they also helped him by serving as an outlet for his other musical ideas. He did need them, to a certain extent, because a camp that bore the "Minneapolis sound" was a lot more influential impressive than one guy's musical style. Without a camp (and that includes Vanity 6 and later Sheila), it would have taken Prince longer to achieve what he did (and it can be argued that wouldn't have happened without a movie that presented them all in their Prince characters).

One impressive edit.

[Edited 10/25/11 19:57pm]

phunkdaddy said:

HonestMan13 said:

Compare their 5th studio album with Prince's 5th studio album. Somehow he managed to get to his within 4 years. It took them 30.

What does this have to do with my comment about Target having a lot of Lotusflow3r cd's to

unload?

I can dig u being a die hard Prince fan but you're taking your defense of Prince way

too far.

Not really. It seems to be the course to compare 'Condensate' to the last 3 Prince releases "only". If you want to make comparisons then compare it to everything he's done since Pandemonium.

ThreadBare said:

Funny how this has evolved into a "Prince gave them A, B and C -- he couldn't have been that bad."

Rebutting this might be a foolhardy cause, but I would submit the following:

1) Jesse's "Video Soul" interview with Donnie Simpson included the explanation that Prince regularly would cancel The Time's opening act at big venues that were to be attended by important music execs -- all out of fear they would upstage him.

2) The point that they were seven to Prince's singular act misses the point that even he has made over the years: The Time, as demonstrated in "Purple Rain," were the perfect foil for Prince. But, they also helped him by serving as an outlet for his other musical ideas. He did need them, to a certain extent, because a camp that bore the "Minneapolis sound" was a lot more influential impressive than one guy's musical style. Without a camp (and that includes Vanity 6 and later Sheila), it would have taken Prince longer to achieve what he did (and it can be argued that wouldn't have happened without a movie that presented them all in their Prince characters).

I agree

ThreadBare said:

Funny how this has evolved into a "Prince gave them A, B and C -- he couldn't have been that bad."

Rebutting this might be a foolhardy cause, but I would submit the following:

1) Jesse's "Video Soul" interview with Donnie Simpson included the explanation that Prince regularly would cancel The Time's opening act at big venues that were to be attended by important music execs -- all out of fear they would upstage him.

2) The point that they were seven to Prince's singular act misses the point that even he has made over the years: The Time, as demonstrated in "Purple Rain," were the perfect foil for Prince. But, they also helped him by serving as an outlet for his other musical ideas. He did need them, to a certain extent, because a camp that bore the "Minneapolis sound" was a lot more influential impressive than one guy's musical style. Without a camp (and that includes Vanity 6 and later Sheila), it would have taken Prince longer to achieve what he did (and it can be argued that wouldn't have happened without a movie that presented them all in their Prince characters).

One impressive edit.

[Edited 10/25/11 19:57pm]

The only thing I cannot understand is if all 7 of the members felt this way then it should've been easy to get up from that table and walk out. If they really thought they had what it took to upstage Prince then why not go it alone. I think the reality of how little they'd actually done for themselves at that point had set in. Also if Prince & Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain then how necessary were you to him anyway. Jimmy & Terry and Monte all felt they would be better off on their own and they were successful in the fields they chose for themselves. Prince had his vision for Purple Rain and he replaced everyone who left with a quickness and then gave them some more hits. After Purple Rain I think Morris felt confident enough to finally get up from 'that table' especially when he heard Jessie got a record deal. Even then Jerome & Jellybean stuck around to join the Family. then Jerome went on to join the Revolution. It's easy to color the story with the confidence that they all have now but back then they were a bunch of broke artists from Minneaplois trying to move up out of the club scene.

HonestMan13 said:

ThreadBare said:

Funny how this has evolved into a "Prince gave them A, B and C -- he couldn't have been that bad."

Rebutting this might be a foolhardy cause, but I would submit the following:

1) Jesse's "Video Soul" interview with Donnie Simpson included the explanation that Prince regularly would cancel The Time's opening act at big venues that were to be attended by important music execs -- all out of fear they would upstage him.

2) The point that they were seven to Prince's singular act misses the point that even he has made over the years: The Time, as demonstrated in "Purple Rain," were the perfect foil for Prince. But, they also helped him by serving as an outlet for his other musical ideas. He did need them, to a certain extent, because a camp that bore the "Minneapolis sound" was a lot more influential impressive than one guy's musical style. Without a camp (and that includes Vanity 6 and later Sheila), it would have taken Prince longer to achieve what he did (and it can be argued that wouldn't have happened without a movie that presented them all in their Prince characters).

One impressive edit.

[Edited 10/25/11 19:57pm]

The only thing I cannot understand is if all 7 of the members felt this way then it should've been easy to get up from that table and walk out. If they really thought they had what it took to upstage Prince then why not go it alone. I think the reality of how little they'd actually done for themselves at that point had set in. Also if Prince & Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain then how necessary were you to him anyway. Jimmy & Terry and Monte all felt they would be better off on their own and they were successful in the fields they chose for themselves. Prince had his vision for Purple Rain and he replaced everyone who left with a quickness and then gave them some more hits. After Purple Rain I think Morris felt confident enough to finally get up from 'that table' especially when he heard Jessie got a record deal. Even then Jerome & Jellybean stuck around to join the Family. then Jerome went on to join the Revolution. It's easy to color the story with the confidence that they all have now but back then they were a bunch of broke artists from Minneaplois trying to move up out of the club scene.

Lewis was the first to leave. Jam joined him because they already were doin some things in production. I think they were doin stuff with Tabu. What did the other 5 have, nothin really. TIf they quit and somehow couldn't get a deal, then what? The only money they were making was from the live shows, I don't think they were gettin' any thing from the album sales except maybe Morris.

The way they were talkin on the DVD, they did't really get anything, I think 100 a night or so. They said they made more playing behind Vanity 6 than themselves.

HonestMan13 said:

ThreadBare said:

Funny how this has evolved into a "Prince gave them A, B and C -- he couldn't have been that bad."

Rebutting this might be a foolhardy cause, but I would submit the following:

1) Jesse's "Video Soul" interview with Donnie Simpson included the explanation that Prince regularly would cancel The Time's opening act at big venues that were to be attended by important music execs -- all out of fear they would upstage him.

2) The point that they were seven to Prince's singular act misses the point that even he has made over the years: The Time, as demonstrated in "Purple Rain," were the perfect foil for Prince. But, they also helped him by serving as an outlet for his other musical ideas. He did need them, to a certain extent, because a camp that bore the "Minneapolis sound" was a lot more influential impressive than one guy's musical style. Without a camp (and that includes Vanity 6 and later Sheila), it would have taken Prince longer to achieve what he did (and it can be argued that wouldn't have happened without a movie that presented them all in their Prince characters).

One impressive edit.

The only thing I cannot understand is if all 7 of the members felt this way then it should've been easy to get up from that table and walk out. If they really thought they had what it took to upstage Prince then why not go it alone. I think the reality of how little they'd actually done for themselves at that point had set in. Also if Prince & Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain then how necessary were you to him anyway. Jimmy & Terry and Monte all felt they would be better off on their own and they were successful in the fields they chose for themselves. Prince had his vision for Purple Rain and he replaced everyone who left with a quickness and then gave them some more hits. After Purple Rain I think Morris felt confident enough to finally get up from 'that table' especially when he heard Jessie got a record deal. Even then Jerome & Jellybean stuck around to join the Family. then Jerome went on to join the Revolution. It's easy to color the story with the confidence that they all have now but back then they were a bunch of broke artists from Minneaplois trying to move up out of the club scene.

"If Prince and Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain than how necessary were you to him anyway?"

You make it sound like these guys were disposable,untalented nobodies who could easily be replaced.Imagine if all seven members abandoned Prince just as he was about to begin shooting 'Purple Rain'.He would have had to create a' fake' Time band for the movie.R&B audiences would have saw right through it.And how do replace someone like Morris Day? He practically stole the show in that film,according to many movie critics.Let's give these guys some credit,OK? Prince needed them as much as they needed him,especially at that crucial time period.You give Prince waaaaayyyy too much credit.Sure,he wrote and produced their albums but it took their OWN talent to bring it all to life.A band doesn't become successful just because of one person.It's a team of people that make it happen.It took their own musicianship,talent and hard work to get up there and perform the songs every night,sometimes upstaging Prince.Why do you think he removed them from the bill in some of the major cities?

To answer your question about why they stayed.....if you were a musician in a popular R&B band and you were getting ready to make a major motion picture,would you have left? Morris was getting ready to co-star in a movie.Why leave at that point?

Ask yourself this....why did Prince's empire collapse after Vanity 6 and The Time? I mean,why wasn't he able to have any more successful protege bands? The Family collapsed after one album.Mazarati collapsed after one album.Notice a pattern here? Nobody likes to be controlled and mistreated.It's not worth it,not even for a hit record.

.

[Edited 10/27/11 6:18am]

SoulAlive said:

HonestMan13 said:

The only thing I cannot understand is if all 7 of the members felt this way then it should've been easy to get up from that table and walk out. If they really thought they had what it took to upstage Prince then why not go it alone. I think the reality of how little they'd actually done for themselves at that point had set in. Also if Prince & Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain then how necessary were you to him anyway. Jimmy & Terry and Monte all felt they would be better off on their own and they were successful in the fields they chose for themselves. Prince had his vision for Purple Rain and he replaced everyone who left with a quickness and then gave them some more hits. After Purple Rain I think Morris felt confident enough to finally get up from 'that table' especially when he heard Jessie got a record deal. Even then Jerome & Jellybean stuck around to join the Family. then Jerome went on to join the Revolution. It's easy to color the story with the confidence that they all have now but back then they were a bunch of broke artists from Minneaplois trying to move up out of the club scene.

"If Prince and Lisa could play your parts from behind a curtain than how necessary were you to him anyway?"

You make it sound like these guys were disposable,untalented nobodies who could easily be replaced.Imagine if all seven members abandoned Prince just as he was about to begin shooting 'Purple Rain'.He would have had to create a' fake' Time band for the movie.R&B audiences would have saw right through it.And how do replace someone like Morris Day? He practically stole the show in that film,according to many movie critics.Let's give these guys some credit,OK? Prince needed them as much as they needed him

To answer your question about why they stayed.....if you were a musician in a popular R&B band and you were getting ready to make a major motion picture,would you have left? Morris was getting ready to co-star in a movie.Why leave at that point?

Ask yourself this....why did Prince's empire collapse after Vanity 6 and The Time? I mean,why wasn't he able to have any more successful protege bands? The Family collapsed after one album.Mazarati collapsed after one album.Notice a pattern here? Nobody likes to be controlled and mistreated.It's not worth it,not even for a hit record.

..

[Edited 10/27/11 5:56am]

Actually the Time members were probably some of the most talented proteges musically except for maybe Sheila E and I recognize/respect that. That's also why I question all of this 'mistreatment' 27 years after the fact. How did Prince mistreat Jam & Lewis, they missed work and got fired for it. That happens at most jobs if you miss out on a crucial part of your responsibilities. Monte walked on his own. Jellybean left then came right back. 3 others obviously never even considered leaving at the time. As for the collapse of the empire, several artists had more than one release under Prince(Sheila E(3), Mavis Staples(2), George Clinton(2)) and keep in mind these were all artists he met on the way up and not his 'friends' form the old neighborhood. You say nobody wants to be controlled (even for a hit record) then why let Prince replace half of 'your' band and stay to make a movie to benefit Prince career. If the movie made Morris(and vice versa) then why didn't he maximize on all of the missed opportunities that Prince denied him while under his control? Why did your right hand man decide to stick around for more 'mistreatment'? Other than morris and Jerome none of the other Time members got the chance to burp in the movie. For that matter most of the Revolution only had a handful of lines(except Wendy & Lisa). How easy would it have been to hire actors to play the non speaking parts? Audiences didn't care that Jam, Lewis and Moir weren't in the movie.

How did Prince mistreat Jam and Lewis,they missed work and got fired for it

They weren't making much money in The Time and they weren't able to contribute any music.It's completely understandable that they would want to work with other artists.Prince didn't have to fire them,he could have been a bit more understanding....maybe just fined them? Instead,he fires them and tells the other Time members: "You won't hear anything from them ever again".This move actually broke up the band.Morris and Jesse have both said that,when Jimmy and Terry were let go,it just wasn't the same.

SoulAlive said:

How did Prince mistreat Jam and Lewis,they missed work and got fired for it

They weren't making much money in The Time and they weren't able to contribute any music.It's completely understandable that they would want to work with other artists.Prince didn't have to fire them,he could have been a bit more understanding....maybe just fined them? Instead,he fires them and tells the other Time members: "You won't hear anything from them ever again".This move actually broke up the band.Morris and Jesse have both said that,when Jimmy and Terry were let go,it just wasn't the same.

It was 1983. Most musicians weren't making any money. We all know what they were getting for selling units and that didn't change till after the Thriller/Purple Rain era(and only for a select few artists).

As for the being more understanding about them missing a show. He could've cancelled them entirely off the bill for that night or let them go on and make a mess out of themselves trying to fill the gaps for themselves. Instead he stepped in and handled it for them beacause the show must go on.

Also where was this call for understanding when Alexander O'Neal got dumped? Seems like nobody gave a rat's ass what happened to him as long as they were in the line-up.

Prince was hardly handing these guys disposable tracks either. He basically had a style of writing that was intended for them and their stage persona. They scored 4 hits before the drama kicked in. Then 2 more afterwards and Purple Rain put them in the position to move on with even more security than prior to it's release.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The way they were talkin on the DVD, they did't really get anything, I think 100 a night or so. They said they made more playing behind Vanity 6 than themselves.

The Gap Band didn't make a lot of money either. Lonnie Simmons took most of the touring profits and their publishing too.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

They missed work cause of a blizzard, not because they were tryin to screw Prince over. They were producing in their off time also. And about most artist not making money in 83, that maybe true. But, were the Time even getting anything from album sales? They were basically on the cover, did no background vocals or instruments or writing/production besides Morris. Prince was only paying them as a backing band.

Exactly.

It's staggering to me the disrespect some of you guys throw at The Time's members. I clearly would not be here (the org) if I wasn't a Prince fan, but that doesn't mean I can't easily see when the guy's been a complete a-hole. P's whole adult life has been about control and manipulation, because of his childhood issues with his parents (a pyschologist would have a field day examining P's life). Offering Morris a band for Partyup was a nice offer, but it shouldn't have ever come with the puppet strings that P manipulated from day one. What would it have hurt him to let the others take a stab at writing for the band? Clearly, there were/are multiple talented writers in the band. But in hindsight, P more than resembled his character in PR. MUST...NOT...RELINQUISH...CONTROL...TO...ANYONE! "Developing talent" for WB should have meant bringing them up to where they can do things on their own eventually (which they were already capable of doing). To P that meant "oh, here's another outlet (puppet I can manipulate) for MY music. Who gives a rat's ass about the people involved." My favorite quote that defines P's arrogance and assery (in reference to Jam & Lewis leaving)... "Just wait, you'll never hear anything about them again." That's the equivalent to a teenager cutting down another kid to make himself look better.

rick james made a lot of money off of street songs in 81. nile rodgers made a lot of money producing madonna and david bowie.