Here¨s something interesting. The Lorazapam that Murray claims to have given to MJ must have been MUCH HIGHER according to the numbers showed by the autopsy.

dag said:

Here¨s something interesting. The Lorazapam that Murray claims to have given to MJ must have been MUCH HIGHER according to the numbers showed by the autopsy.

yep. dr. shafer pointed out yesterday that based on murray's own words, he gave him some counteractive drug in an amount that indicates that murray himself knew that *he* had given mj a larger dose of lorazepam than he admitted to in his interview. otherwise, why would he be giving such a large dose of the counteractive drug?

According to this doctor, Mike must have gotten 10 Lorazapam doses of 4 mg each!?!?

[Edited 10/20/11 10:31am]

OK, it's impossible for Flanagan to come up with any hypothesis he loved to ask about, so what is he gonna do?!?!?! No idea.

kibbles said:

tmo1965 said:

That's the part that gets me too. MJ did not have to die, even with getting the propofol. There were so many ways he could have been saved. Even if Murray had done nothing but call 911 when he saw that MJ was not breathing, MJ would still be here. However, I'm not really convinced that MJ was alive when Murray found him.

i am.

"At today's hearing [sade anding] testified, "I said, 'Well let me tell you about my day and I started telling him about my day...that's when I realized he was no longer on the phone … I was just talking and the next thing you know I said, 'Hello? Hello?' and I didn't hear anything. That's when I pressed the phone on my ear and I heard mumbling of voices … I heard coughing and nobody answered."

http://abcnews.go.com/Ent...14658172#1

who else would be coughing? murray, perhaps, but isn't it more likely that it was mj trying to catch his breath? she heard also heard voices, meaning more than one.

you don't understand how a person "stops breathing" when under propofol. They don't cough. To cough would suggest that their body is attempting to protect the airway. That is the problem.... the body is UNCONCIOUS so the body doesn't protect the airway. Saliva will just drain out of your mouth, and down your chin, or it will drain down your throad and clog your airway. but you don't cough. That is one of the ways you die.

The other way is your body becomes so laxed, that the fleshy parts of your throat just falls and closes off your windpipe. so your lungs will go through the motions of inhaling... but no air goes down your windpipe because your uvula and/or tongue has fallen and is covering the windpipe.

The final way that you stop breathing is you are so sedated that your lung muscles are paralyzed and you don't even attempt to take a breath.

I don't believe that was MJ coughing/choking. I think that was Murray doing that when he casually walked in the room while talking on the phone with his chick and found MJ dead. He gasp out of shock... and his saliva went down HIS windpipe and he reflexively cough and gag to clear his own throat.

People unconcious do not have those reflexes.

That is the reason your do the chin lift... you are holding the head/jaw in such a way that you pull the uvula up and away from the windpipe.

tmo1965 said:

prodigalfan said:

wasn't there portable o2? I thought I had heard there were o2 tanks. Not that it mattered, since it appears none was used.

When giving Propofol.... you always give supplemental oxygen. Absolutely... even if you are not in trouble.

The tank in MJ's room was empty.

dag said:

According to this doctor, Mike must have gotten 10 Lorazapam doses of 4 mg each!?!?

[Edited 10/20/11 10:31am]

I hate to say this but THIS is troublesome.

to take 40 mg of Ativan will definitely kill you just as well as Propofol.

And Ativan comes in tablets, and they could theoretically be taken by MJ without Murray's knowledge or participation.

Now this here could be "reasonable" doubt.

the coroner would need to make a case DEFINITIVELY that MJ died of Propofol, not some other sedative.

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

The doctor wants his day in court. He doesn't want to pay a fine, get his license revoked or serve any sentence.

So that is why there is a trial.

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

in addition to what prodigal just posted, you also don't get to kill people just because they may be drug addicted.

i say may b/c although i keep hearing this mantra mj was a long term drug addict, has there been confirmation of that? for example:

- his 1995 doc going denies that mj collapsed in nyc due to drugs

- no other recent doctors have been charged in connection w/any 'doctor shopping' including murray who if he was so shady could have been prescribing mj all sorts of drugs in the years that he knew him before being hired as the personal dr.

- a few prescription bottles were found in mj home at the time of his death, and still had pills in them. there's been no confirmation that any of these prescriptions were addicting.

- the other bottles and vials were purchased and prescribed by murray within the 60 days before mj's death, and they were the drugs murray was prescribing for sleep and were administering himself.

- there has been no evidence thus mj was taking propofol in the months BEFORE murray came into mj's life.

- finally, the autopsy shows that there were no other traces of other drugs found in mj's system, only what murray had given him.

mj had had this propofol "treatment" before murray, i think that much is clear, and b/c others turned him down he turned to murray, that is also clear. but when you are last man standing over a dead body, it is irrelevant as to whether that person was an addict. you simply do not get to kill people with impunity.

prodigalfan said:

kibbles said:

i am.

"At today's hearing [sade anding] testified, "I said, 'Well let me tell you about my day and I started telling him about my day...that's when I realized he was no longer on the phone … I was just talking and the next thing you know I said, 'Hello? Hello?' and I didn't hear anything. That's when I pressed the phone on my ear and I heard mumbling of voices … I heard coughing and nobody answered."

http://abcnews.go.com/Ent...14658172#1

who else would be coughing? murray, perhaps, but isn't it more likely that it was mj trying to catch his breath? she heard also heard voices, meaning more than one.

you don't understand how a person "stops breathing" when under propofol. They don't cough. To cough would suggest that their body is attempting to protect the airway. That is the problem.... the body is UNCONCIOUS so the body doesn't protect the airway. Saliva will just drain out of your mouth, and down your chin, or it will drain down your throad and clog your airway. but you don't cough. That is one of the ways you die.

The other way is your body becomes so laxed, that the fleshy parts of your throat just falls and closes off your windpipe. so your lungs will go through the motions of inhaling... but no air goes down your windpipe because your uvula and/or tongue has fallen and is covering the windpipe.

The final way that you stop breathing is you are so sedated that your lung muscles are paralyzed and you don't even attempt to take a breath.

I don't believe that was MJ coughing/choking. I think that was Murray doing that when he casually walked in the room while talking on the phone with his chick and found MJ dead. He gasp out of shock... and his saliva went down HIS windpipe and he reflexively cough and gag to clear his own throat.

People unconcious do not have those reflexes.

That is the reason your do the chin lift... you are holding the head/jaw in such a way that you pull the uvula up and away from the windpipe.

i have changed my mind after listening to dr. shafer's testimony today. with the amount of propofol and other drugs in him, i think it's clear mj was dead when murray happened upon him.

prodigalfan said:

dag said:

According to this doctor, Mike must have gotten 10 Lorazapam doses of 4 mg each!?!?

[Edited 10/20/11 10:31am]

I hate to say this but THIS is troublesome.

to take 40 mg of Ativan will definitely kill you just as well as Propofol.

And Ativan comes in tablets, and they could theoretically be taken by MJ without Murray's knowledge or participation.

Now this here could be "reasonable" doubt.

the coroner would need to make a case DEFINITIVELY that MJ died of Propofol, not some other sedative.

They haven't finished with their analysis. The doctor was showing several diagram of different presented hypothesis to show what happened. They haven't gotten to the true one yet, but they did it to rule out any defence's hypothesis.

Timmy84 said:

kibbles said:

okay, while timmy isn't looking: i've thought that race plays a strange role here in that people are willing to slap an 'incompetent' label on murray, thinking 'well, he's probably an affirmative action doctor, so what do you expect', soft bigotry of low expectations kind of thing, dumb ni**** kind of thing, and therefore they suspend disbelief when the reality is staring them in the face, that reality being that he's NOT incompetent, but that he killed or was willing to allow mj to die to save himself. ironically, if a white doc had been caught in this situation, i don't think the word 'incompetence' would be thrown around; everyone would be willing to accept the reality that no one is this 'incompetent' on purpose. except maybe a black doctor. you know what i mean?

i'm leaving before timmy shows up.

Kibbles, Kibbles, Kibbles & Bits... tsk tsk tsk

prodigalfan said:

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

The doctor wants his day in court. He doesn't want to pay a fine, get his license revoked or serve any sentence.

So that is why there is a trial.

Pretty much.

prodigalfan said:

dag said:

According to this doctor, Mike must have gotten 10 Lorazapam doses of 4 mg each!?!?

[Edited 10/20/11 10:31am]

I hate to say this but THIS is troublesome.

to take 40 mg of Ativan will definitely kill you just as well as Propofol.

And Ativan comes in tablets, and they could theoretically be taken by MJ without Murray's knowledge or participation.

Now this here could be "reasonable" doubt.

the coroner would need to make a case DEFINITIVELY that MJ died of Propofol, not some other sedative.

This is definitely what lazycrockett was talking about...

prodigalfan said:

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

The doctor wants his day in court. He doesn't want to pay a fine, get his license revoked or serve any sentence.

So that is why there is a trial.

Thank you. And I still don't get how anybody can imply that it's somehow okay for an MD to kill someone just because some people believe that he was an addict.

babynoz said:

prodigalfan said:

The doctor wants his day in court. He doesn't want to pay a fine, get his license revoked or serve any sentence.

So that is why there is a trial.

Thank you. And I still don't get how anybody can imply that it's somehow okay for an MD to kill someone just because some people believe that he was an addict.

Exactly. He was as bad as the rest of Michael's so-called "drug dealers".

Trial of Michael Jackson's doctor becomes battle of experts
By Alan Duke, CNN
updated 3:58 PM EST, Thu October 20, 2011

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Michael Jackson could not have given himself the fatal doses of sedatives and anesthesia that killed him, the prosecution's anesthesiology expert testified in Dr. Conrad Murray's involuntary manslaughter trial Thursday.
The level of drugs in Jackson's blood also were far higher than what would be expected based on the dosages Dr. Murray told detectives he gave Jackson in the hours before his death, Dr. Steven Shafer said.
The Los Angeles County coroner ruled that Jackson's June 25, 2009, death was caused by a combination of sedatives with the surgical anesthetic propofol, which Murray admitted he used to help Jackson sleep.
Toxicology results indicated Jackson was given 10 times the dosage of lorazepam and several times the amount of propofol that Murray described giving him, Dr. Shafer testified.
Murray, in a police interview two days after Jackson's death, said he gave Jackson a total of four milligrams of lorazepam in two separate doses starting 10 hours before his death.
The level of lorazepam in Jackson's blood at the time of his autopsy show "this did not happen," Shafer said. Instead, the blood levels suggest he was given 40 milligrams -- not four -- in a series of 10 doses, he said.
Blood levels also disprove Murray's claim that he injected only 25 milliliters of propofol into Jackson more than an hour before he stopped breathing, he said. It would take an injection of 100 milliliters within minutes of his death to create the level of propofol found in Jackson's blood, he said.
Murray's defense is built around the theory that Jackson self-administered the fatal overdoses, but Shafer said science and common sense disprove that possibility.
The defense claim that Jackson swallowed eight lorazepam tablets while Murray was away was based on testing of his stomach contents. But Shafer discredited the defense lab tests, saying a new test showed the equivalent of only "1/43rd of a tablet" of the sedative in the stomach.
The defense explanation for the high level of propofol in Jackson's blood also involves a self-administration theory. They say Jackson, desperate for sleep, woke up while Murray was away and used a syringe to inject himself.
Dr. Shafer said the theory makes no sense.
"People just don't wake up hell bent to grab the next dose in a syringe, draw it up and shove it in their IV again," Shafer said. "It's just a crazy scenario."
Although the defense recently abandoned the theory that Jackson may have swallowed propofol, the prosecution still worked to use their old theory to discredit Dr. Paul White, the anesthesiologist who will testify soon for the defense.
A report prepared by Dr. White last March concluded oral ingestion of propofol could have killed Jackson, but Dr. Shafer testified it ignores the "first pass effect" that is taught to first-year medical students.
The liver is a "powerful mechanism" for filtering propofol from the digestive tract so that only a very small percentage can reach the blood, Shafer said.
Shafer cited several studies on rats, mice, piglets, dogs, monkeys and humans that he said proves swallowing propofol would have no effect.
"There was no sedation at anytime following oral consumption of propofol," Shafer said, describing the results of research he commissioned on university students in Chile over the summer.
The human study was done not only to prepare for the Jackson trial, Shafer said, but also to counter an effort by the Drug Enforcement Agency to consider tighter restrictions on propofol.
The drug is not currently a controlled substance, but publicity over the theory that Jackson's death might have been caused by oral ingestion prompted federal regulators to considered a new requirement that "it to be handled almost like morphine," he said.
"Patients will be hurt if it is restricted," he said. "Anesthesiologists have to have ready access."
The new study assures that if the drug is abused, it would only be done with the intravenous route, which only health care providers have, he said.
Dr. Shafter testified Wednesday that Jackson "most likely" died because his tongue blocked the back of his throat, but that he could have been saved if Dr. Murray had used "a simple chin lift" when he realized the pop icon had stopped breathing.
Murray was "totally clueless" about how to treat Jackson in those critical minutes, leading to the singer's death, Shafer said.
A cardiologist previously testified that he thought Jackson died of respiratory arrest, but Shafer expanded on the theory, saying, "The most likely thing that happened was airway obstruction."
"Michael Jackson was trying to breathe, but the tongue had fallen in the back of the throat," Shafer said. "Either a simple chin lift, just that alone, or an oral airway to move the tongue out of the way might well have been all that was required to save his life."
Shafer said Jackson would be alive now but for 17 "egregious deviations" by Murray from the standard of care required of physicians.
Murray's use of propofol almost every night for two months to help Jackson sleep was so unusual, there is no documentation on the dangers, Shafer said.
"We are in pharmacological never-never land here," Shafer said, "something that's only been done to Michael Jackson."
The trial, in its fourth week, is expected to conclude with the start of jury deliberations near the end of next week.
http://edition.cnn.com/20...cnn_latest

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

I hate to say this but THIS is troublesome.

to take 40 mg of Ativan will definitely kill you just as well as Propofol.

And Ativan comes in tablets, and they could theoretically be taken by MJ without Murray's knowledge or participation.

Now this here could be "reasonable" doubt.

the coroner would need to make a case DEFINITIVELY that MJ died of Propofol, not some other sedative.

This is definitely what lazycrockett was talking about...

It's going to be interesting because whether it was the lorazepam or propofol Murray could still be found negligent to the point of committing manslaughter just from failing to monitor MJ and not being properly equipped to handle any emergency not to mention allowing so very many sedatives to be within reach of his patient.

Murray might have injected three doses of propofol into a dead body and not even notice?!?!?!

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

This is definitely what lazycrockett was talking about...

It's going to be interesting because whether it was the lorazepam or propofol Murray could still be found negligent to the point of committing manslaughter just from failing to monitor MJ and not being properly equipped to handle any emergency not to mention allowing so very many sedatives to be within reach of his patient.

Right, like dag said, there's an issue of Murray injecting doses into someone that was already out of this life.

He just said that Mike died around 11:30 and with the drip still going in is how the propofol numbers got so high because the body couldn't metabolize it.

[Edited 10/20/11 14:17pm]

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

This is definitely what lazycrockett was talking about...

It's going to be interesting because whether it was the lorazepam or propofol Murray could still be found negligent to the point of committing manslaughter just from failing to monitor MJ and not being properly equipped to handle any emergency not to mention allowing so very many sedatives to be within reach of his patient.

correct me if i'm wrong, but hasn't this doctor already established that the oral ingestion of the pills does not square with the contents in the stomach? so how is this reasonable doubt for the def who've been saying that mj self-administered by drinking propofol - debunked by their own study - or by taking pills behind murray's back - debunked by the autopsy and the testiomy offered today?

prodigalfan said:

kibbles said:

i am.

"At today's hearing [sade anding] testified, "I said, 'Well let me tell you about my day and I started telling him about my day...that's when I realized he was no longer on the phone … I was just talking and the next thing you know I said, 'Hello? Hello?' and I didn't hear anything. That's when I pressed the phone on my ear and I heard mumbling of voices … I heard coughing and nobody answered."

http://abcnews.go.com/Ent...14658172#1

who else would be coughing? murray, perhaps, but isn't it more likely that it was mj trying to catch his breath? she heard also heard voices, meaning more than one.

you don't understand how a person "stops breathing" when under propofol. They don't cough. To cough would suggest that their body is attempting to protect the airway. That is the problem.... the body is UNCONCIOUS so the body doesn't protect the airway. Saliva will just drain out of your mouth, and down your chin, or it will drain down your throad and clog your airway. but you don't cough. That is one of the ways you die.

The other way is your body becomes so laxed, that the fleshy parts of your throat just falls and closes off your windpipe. so your lungs will go through the motions of inhaling... but no air goes down your windpipe because your uvula and/or tongue has fallen and is covering the windpipe.

The final way that you stop breathing is you are so sedated that your lung muscles are paralyzed and you don't even attempt to take a breath.

I don't believe that was MJ coughing/choking. I think that was Murray doing that when he casually walked in the room while talking on the phone with his chick and found MJ dead. He gasp out of shock... and his saliva went down HIS windpipe and he reflexively cough and gag to clear his own throat.

People unconcious do not have those reflexes.

That is the reason your do the chin lift... you are holding the head/jaw in such a way that you pull the uvula up and away from the windpipe.

Thanks again for the professional insight. Apparently Dr. Shafer's opinion is that the tongue probably blocked the airway leading to respiratory arrest. I'm also inclined to agree that Murray was absent far longer than the two minutes he stated and Mike was probably long dead when he found him and began his panicked cover-up.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

It's going to be interesting because whether it was the lorazepam or propofol Murray could still be found negligent to the point of committing manslaughter just from failing to monitor MJ and not being properly equipped to handle any emergency not to mention allowing so very many sedatives to be within reach of his patient.

correct me if i'm wrong, but hasn't this doctor already established that the oral ingestion of the pills does not square with the contents in the stomach? so how is this reasonable doubt for the def who've been saying that mj self-administered by drinking propofol - debunked by their own study - or by taking pills behind murray's back - debunked by the autopsy and the testiomy offered today?

That definitely don't sound like reasonable doubt at all when you think about it.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

It's going to be interesting because whether it was the lorazepam or propofol Murray could still be found negligent to the point of committing manslaughter just from failing to monitor MJ and not being properly equipped to handle any emergency not to mention allowing so very many sedatives to be within reach of his patient.

correct me if i'm wrong, but hasn't this doctor already established that the oral ingestion of the pills does not square with the contents in the stomach? so how is this reasonable doubt for the def who've been saying that mj self-administered by drinking propofol - debunked by their own study - or by taking pills behind murray's back - debunked by the autopsy and the testiomy offered today?

That's what I'm saying...it is not an adequate defense.

Regardless of what the defense claims about the drugs, (which has already been credibly refuted by prosecutions witnesses), Murray is still guilty of negligence and manslaughter.

prodigalfan said:

kibbles said:

i am.

"At today's hearing [sade anding] testified, "I said, 'Well let me tell you about my day and I started telling him about my day...that's when I realized he was no longer on the phone … I was just talking and the next thing you know I said, 'Hello? Hello?' and I didn't hear anything. That's when I pressed the phone on my ear and I heard mumbling of voices … I heard coughing and nobody answered."

http://abcnews.go.com/Ent...14658172#1

who else would be coughing? murray, perhaps, but isn't it more likely that it was mj trying to catch his breath? she heard also heard voices, meaning more than one.

you don't understand how a person "stops breathing" when under propofol. They don't cough. To cough would suggest that their body is attempting to protect the airway. That is the problem.... the body is UNCONCIOUS so the body doesn't protect the airway. Saliva will just drain out of your mouth, and down your chin, or it will drain down your throad and clog your airway. but you don't cough. That is one of the ways you die.

The other way is your body becomes so laxed, that the fleshy parts of your throat just falls and closes off your windpipe. so your lungs will go through the motions of inhaling... but no air goes down your windpipe because your uvula and/or tongue has fallen and is covering the windpipe.

The final way that you stop breathing is you are so sedated that your lung muscles are paralyzed and you don't even attempt to take a breath.

I don't believe that was MJ coughing/choking. I think that was Murray doing that when he casually walked in the room while talking on the phone with his chick and found MJ dead. He gasp out of shock... and his saliva went down HIS windpipe and he reflexively cough and gag to clear his own throat.

People unconcious do not have those reflexes.

That is the reason your do the chin lift... you are holding the head/jaw in such a way that you pull the uvula up and away from the windpipe.

a poster at an mj board is typing the testimony of dr. shafer, and below is what s/he wrote:

so even though you may disagree, the doctor says that it is possible that a coughing noise could have come from mj, though obviously we have no way of knowing.

I wish I could feel upset in full, but I don't. I think I have accepted what's going on though it is an upsetting and psychotic situation. I think I have accepted that he's not coming back whether this Dr. is found guilty or not. I'm not sure if I believe if it was intentional or not and tired of going in circles over it. I'm more miserable about my own life, and call me selfish, but using MJ now to get away from my own misery is not working, this situation is miserable and not helping matters.

kibbles said:

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

in addition to what prodigal just posted, you also don't get to kill people just because they may be drug addicted.

i say may b/c although i keep hearing this mantra mj was a long term drug addict, has there been confirmation of that? for example:

- his 1995 doc going denies that mj collapsed in nyc due to drugs

- no other recent doctors have been charged in connection w/any 'doctor shopping' including murray who if he was so shady could have been prescribing mj all sorts of drugs in the years that he knew him before being hired as the personal dr.

- a few prescription bottles were found in mj home at the time of his death, and still had pills in them. there's been no confirmation that any of these prescriptions were addicting.

- the other bottles and vials were purchased and prescribed by murray within the 60 days before mj's death, and they were the drugs murray was prescribing for sleep and were administering himself.

- there has been no evidence thus mj was taking propofol in the months BEFORE murray came into mj's life.

- finally, the autopsy shows that there were no other traces of other drugs found in mj's system, only what murray had given him.

mj had had this propofol "treatment" before murray, i think that much is clear, and b/c others turned him down he turned to murray, that is also clear. but when you are last man standing over a dead body, it is irrelevant as to whether that person was an addict. you simply do not get to kill people with impunity.

No they have not proven that MJ was a drug addict. Only Murray claims that his veins where bad. The autopsy did not address this (I don't think). I took pause when it came out in testimony that there were Ativan (or whatever) pills that were purchased in April and there were still a lot of pills left in the bottle. This could indicate that MJ was not this hard core drug addict.

On the other hand, he did go into rehab in 1993. He did write a song called Morphine in which it's clear that he's talking about being addicted to Morphine and demerol. Janet said in an interview that Michael was in denial. I have read reports about this case in which a doctor stated that demerol withdrawal can cause insomia. Maybe that's why he couldn't sleep in the first place.

It does not help the prosecution to bring out any drug addiction MJ may have had. I'll bet that the defense will do this. Even if MJ was an addict, it still does not absolve Murray of his responsibility as a doctor, to not enable a drug addict. He deserves more than 4 years in the slammer for that, imo.

duccichucka said:

Why is this dude on trial?

God bless him but Michael Jackson was a drug addict who purposefully hired a shady,

inept doctor to score and administer his illegal drugs so that he

could get his fix. Oh wait...Murray, if he had acted professionally, could have

saved his life! you say?

He was hired because he wasn't professional - hello?!

It's a waste of CA taxpayer's dollars - revoke his license, make him pay a fine,

and call it a day. MJ's death is bigger than Conrad Murray.

It pains me, but some of this I have to agree with. I do believe Murray was hired because he is weak, shady, inept, greedy, whatever you want to call him and he chose the trap. I don't believe he intended to kill anybody, (which isn't the issue) but I do believe that Michael had been dead, Murray told a slew of lies, had to cover his booty and is now wasting the tax payers dollars. I don't see any room for doubt but I'm not on the jury.

It's tragic the way MJ left this world but when I think of him, I try to think of the good times that I want to believe he had in his life. He was a person and he had crap in his life just like the average joe, but he also had a remarkable life.

alphastreet, it is a good thing that you are accepting that MJ is not coming back. Like you, I don't care what happens to Murray, meaning I've accepted that he could serve little or no time but I would like to hear that guilty verdict. It's good that you're more concerned about your own life, as well you should be. You don't need to apologize for that. Michael is not of this world anymore and hopefully you can find peace with that. I hope whatever is going on in your world will get better.