prodigalfan said:

Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

nursev said:

prodigalfan said:

Was just at youtube trying to find the video of Propofol given in hospital.

I saw the intro video where the anesthesiologist described his various research and publications.

I couldn't help but yell at the computer screen every time I saw "dr." Murray.....

"WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU???!!!!"

It is MIND BLOWING that he did this. I simply CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! Even the doctors participating in this case.... you can tell they are POSITIVELY BAFFLED AND OUTRAGED that this fool would do this.

Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

Doctors of all races can do some sheisty shit so no let's NOT bring it in.

prodigalfan said:

When u look at all that's been presented so far, it's the only plausible explanation. I just refuse to believe murray is really this damn stupid! Nah there's some other stuff going on behind the scenes that the public will never know.

nursev said:

PatrickS77 said:

But what if Michael was long dead and there was nothing left for Murray to do to save him?? The only thing left to do for Murray was to panic and trying to save his own ass.

I have found patients dead! You still must call 911 and initiate cpr not try to clean up the scene. Also, why was there no portable oxygen available and did someone say whether he took a pulse ox or blood oxygen concentration reading? For such a powerful drug to be used murray should have at least had some things available in case Michael did arrest.

wasn't there portable o2? I thought I had heard there were o2 tanks. Not that it mattered, since it appears none was used.

When giving Propofol.... you always give supplemental oxygen. Absolutely... even if you are not in trouble.

Timmy84 said:

True

prodigalfan said:

nursev said:

catpark said: Murray wanted him dead and was paid to make sure he died. I mean no doctor is this damn stupid/negligent.

I am beginning to believe you are right. Because I can't stop myself from wanting to scream at him...

"HELLO, MCFLY!!!"

If it wasn't him, then I believe that somebody was in that house that day, and no one is talking. He stepped out of the room, MJ couldn't have administered propofol himself, anything could have happened while his back was turned. Again, suspicion.

PatrickS77 said:

prodigalfan said:

It is MIND BLOWING that he did this. I simply CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! Even the doctors participating in this case.... you can tell they are POSITIVELY BAFFLED AND OUTRAGED that this fool would do this.

Yeah. It is... especially for a layperson, who doesn't know what really is involved when giving someone Propofol. But it is also mindblowing to think that Michael agreed to this! How could he?

MJ was foolhearted... he put his trust in a fool.

But Murray was not a layperson. He was an interventional cardiologist... he has been in PLENTY of procedures where Propofol was used .... by an anesthesiologist. He knew better. That is what is so mindblowing.

Not that he didni't know... because he did. It was that he knew better and did it anyway.

prodigalfan said:

nursev said:

PatrickS77 said: I have found patients dead! You still must call 911 and initiate cpr not try to clean up the scene. Also, why was there no portable oxygen available and did someone say whether he took a pulse ox or blood oxygen concentration reading? For such a powerful drug to be used murray should have at least had some things available in case Michael did arrest.

wasn't there portable o2? I thought I had heard there were o2 tanks. Not that it mattered, since it appears none was used.

When giving Propofol.... you always give supplemental oxygen. Absolutely... even if you are not in trouble.

Yes, there was portable oxygen, but it wasn't used. With the exception of oxygen, no proper medical equipment was available, and no assistants. Another reason to suspect foul play.

prodigalfan said:

So they were there,but not used. Just another reason to convict.

prodigalfan said:

PatrickS77 said:

Yeah. It is... especially for a layperson, who doesn't know what really is involved when giving someone Propofol. But it is also mindblowing to think that Michael agreed to this! How could he?

MJ was foolhearted... he put his trust in a fool.

But Murray was not a layperson. He was an interventional cardiologist... he has been in PLENTY of procedures where Propofol was used .... by an anesthesiologist. He knew better. That is what is so mindblowing.

Not that he didni't know... because he did. It was that he knew better and did it anyway.

Yeah Michael's guilt was that he trusted too much. Trust is what got him in the end, sad to say.

nursev said:

prodigalfan said:

Was just at youtube trying to find the video of Propofol given in hospital.

I saw the intro video where the anesthesiologist described his various research and publications.

I couldn't help but yell at the computer screen every time I saw "dr." Murray.....

"WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU???!!!!"

It is MIND BLOWING that he did this. I simply CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! Even the doctors participating in this case.... you can tell they are POSITIVELY BAFFLED AND OUTRAGED that this fool would do this.

Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

you know... I am black... and not once did I even think about that. I guess because (and THIS is racist) I guess because he was "from the islands". He doesn't even pronounce the words properly.,.... I heard he pronounces the word "truth" as "trut" . YOu know, leaves the "th" sound from truth.

So I don't identify him as "black"... I think of him as a "foreigner".

And I know that is racist as hell. But that is how I feel.

^ I'll dead this "race" debate by saying this: black is black lol

OK, moving on.

prodigalfan said:

This is what will get him convicted the fact that other physicians have testified that his actions were not reasonable and no ther doctor would do these things.

prodigalfan said:

I said that meaning that you would think he would want to look after Michael better, but imma let it go before Timmy hurts me

nursev said:

prodigalfan said:

you know... I am black... and not once did I even think about that. I guess because (and THIS is racist) I guess because he was "from the islands". He doesn't even pronounce the words properly.,.... I heard he pronounces the word "truth" as "trut" . YOu know, leaves the "th" sound from truth.

So I don't identify him as "black"... I think of him as a "foreigner".

And I know that is racist as hell. But that is how I feel.

I said that meaning that you would think he would want to look after Michael better, but imma let it go before Timmy hurts me

Ohhhh. Yep. I agree. I didn't even think of it that way. And I know Timmy you are right Black is black. But I can't explain the culture of people from the island... so even though we look alike, I don't feel the kinship that I do with other Black Americans.

I hope you can understand that I am not being funny or racist.... just a realist.

And I will end here... will discuss in orgnotes because I don't want to derail this thread or Crockett will throttle me.

nursev said:

Bottom line is murray was paid to be so negligent! Dude was in debt and took the dirty money to kill Michael. Any jury would convict him just for not calling 911 not to mention all the other mess he didn't do.

to call murray 'incompetent' is to give him a benefit of the doubt that he doesn't deserve.

i don't like that the prosecution is relying on murray's version of events to prosecute their case, b/c i think they could have been just as effective in arguing that this wasn't the work of an incompetent dr. but of someone who made a very conscious decision to save himself over his 'patient', or as dr. shafer put it today, his employer.

but, i'm not going to dismiss your theory of a hit, either, nursev. murray was looking for $5m; he settled for $1.8m. who's to say that a man who clearly didn't like mj (i think his interview reveals his disdain) wouldn't agree to be 'incompetent' if it meant that person(s) unknown would pay the money he was looking for?

^ I understand it my son is half Jamaican but imma get back on topic

kibbles said:

This is a great post cuz he did make that choice to try to save his sorry ass and let Michael die.

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

MJ was foolhearted... he put his trust in a fool.

But Murray was not a layperson. He was an interventional cardiologist... he has been in PLENTY of procedures where Propofol was used .... by an anesthesiologist. He knew better. That is what is so mindblowing.

Not that he didni't know... because he did. It was that he knew better and did it anyway.

Yeah Michael's guilt was that he trusted too much. Trust is what got him in the end, sad to say.

this is why i say that if dr. murray puts his 'character witness' patients on the stand, it's dicey. these patients are going to talk about how nice he was, how competent and attentive he was, how he called them to follow up on treatment, etc, etc. didn't mj pretty much say the same thing about murray to randy or kenny? wasn't he adamant that murray be his doc? would he have done that if murray had not made him feel that he knew what he was doing ? even if we allow for mj knowing how dangerous this practice was, would he have taken the risk w/murray if murray hadn't gotten mj to trust him, and in fact did everything he could to engender that trust?

how is murray's def going to explain the fact that murray clearly makes his patients feel safe, and made mj feel that way, versus how he actually treated mj? how do they explain murray's competence w/these other patients, but failing on very basic competency w/mj? the jury will be asking themselves why would murray get mj to trust him, only to betray him so badly.

dag said:

I freaking wanna kill him when I hear that all it might have taken to save MJ's life was to lift his chin and blow air into him through a bag that lay on the floor.

That's the part that gets me too. MJ did not have to die, even with getting the propofol. There were so many ways he could have been saved. Even if Murray had done nothing but call 911 when he saw that MJ was not breathing, MJ would still be here. However, I'm not really convinced that MJ was alive when Murray found him.

nursev said:

catpark said:

Dr Shafer looks stunned and annoyed by going over Murrays negligence.

The more these experts give evidence the more sadder it becomes with the facts that MJ could of been saved. Murray was being so incompetent its unbelieveable shocking the things he did and didn't do for MJ.

Murray wanted him dead and was paid to make sure he died. I mean no doctor is this damn stupid/negligent.

There is a part of me that wonders if LaToya is right about MJ being deliberately murdered. The head honchos at AEG knew MJ was having issues. There was a lot of money on the line. I wonder, if Murray has a large sum deposited in a Cayman Island or Swiss bank account. That would make a lot of sense. But I do know too that drug abuse can make a person go paranoid and that could be why MJ was saying that people were trying kill him.

tmo1965 said:

dag said:

I freaking wanna kill him when I hear that all it might have taken to save MJ's life was to lift his chin and blow air into him through a bag that lay on the floor.

That's the part that gets me too. MJ did not have to die, even with getting the propofol. There were so many ways he could have been saved. Even if Murray had done nothing but call 911 when he saw that MJ was not breathing, MJ would still be here. However, I'm not really convinced that MJ was alive when Murray found him.

i am.

"At today's hearing [sade anding] testified, "I said, 'Well let me tell you about my day and I started telling him about my day...that's when I realized he was no longer on the phone … I was just talking and the next thing you know I said, 'Hello? Hello?' and I didn't hear anything. That's when I pressed the phone on my ear and I heard mumbling of voices … I heard coughing and nobody answered."

http://abcnews.go.com/Ent...14658172#1

who else would be coughing? murray, perhaps, but isn't it more likely that it was mj trying to catch his breath? she heard also heard voices, meaning more than one.

prodigalfan said:

nursev said:

PatrickS77 said: I have found patients dead! You still must call 911 and initiate cpr not try to clean up the scene. Also, why was there no portable oxygen available and did someone say whether he took a pulse ox or blood oxygen concentration reading? For such a powerful drug to be used murray should have at least had some things available in case Michael did arrest.

wasn't there portable o2? I thought I had heard there were o2 tanks. Not that it mattered, since it appears none was used.

When giving Propofol.... you always give supplemental oxygen. Absolutely... even if you are not in trouble.

The tank in MJ's room was empty.

Timmy84 said:

nursev said:

prodigalfan said: Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

Doctors of all races can do some sheisty shit so no let's NOT bring it in.

Besides, someone other than Murray introduced MJ to the propofol in the first place. I agree, greed comes in all colors, shapes, and sizes.

nursev said:

prodigalfan said:

Was just at youtube trying to find the video of Propofol given in hospital.

I saw the intro video where the anesthesiologist described his various research and publications.

I couldn't help but yell at the computer screen every time I saw "dr." Murray.....

"WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU???!!!!"

It is MIND BLOWING that he did this. I simply CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! Even the doctors participating in this case.... you can tell they are POSITIVELY BAFFLED AND OUTRAGED that this fool would do this.

Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

okay, while timmy isn't looking: i've thought that race plays a strange role here in that people are willing to slap an 'incompetent' label on murray, thinking 'well, he's probably an affirmative action doctor, so what do you expect', soft bigotry of low expectations kind of thing, dumb ni**** kind of thing, and therefore they suspend disbelief when the reality is staring them in the face, that reality being that he's NOT incompetent, but that he killed or was willing to allow mj to die to save himself. ironically, if a white doc had been caught in this situation, i don't think the word 'incompetence' would be thrown around; everyone would be willing to accept the reality that no one is this 'incompetent' on purpose. except maybe a black doctor. you know what i mean?

i'm leaving before timmy shows up.

kibbles said:

nursev said:

prodigalfan said: Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

okay, while timmy isn't looking: i've thought that race plays a strange role here in that people are willing to slap an 'incompetent' label on murray, thinking 'well, he's probably an affirmative action doctor, so what do you expect', soft bigotry of low expectations kind of thing, dumb ni**** kind of thing, and therefore they suspend disbelief when the reality is staring them in the face, that reality being that he's NOT incompetent, but that he killed or was willing to allow mj to die to save himself. ironically, if a white doc had been caught in this situation, i don't think the word 'incompetence' would be thrown around; everyone would be willing to accept the reality that no one is this 'incompetent' on purpose. except maybe a black doctor. you know what i mean?

i'm leaving before timmy shows up.

Kibbles, Kibbles, Kibbles & Bits... tsk tsk tsk

In fact all y'all get the:

kibbles said:

nursev said:

prodigalfan said: Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

okay, while timmy isn't looking: i've thought that race plays a strange role here in that people are willing to slap an 'incompetent' label on murray, thinking 'well, he's probably an affirmative action doctor, so what do you expect', soft bigotry of low expectations kind of thing, dumb ni**** kind of thing, and therefore they suspend disbelief when the reality is staring them in the face, that reality being that he's NOT incompetent, but that he killed or was willing to allow mj to die to save himself. ironically, if a white doc had been caught in this situation, i don't think the word 'incompetence' would be thrown around; everyone would be willing to accept the reality that no one is this 'incompetent' on purpose. except maybe a black doctor. you know what i mean?

i'm leaving before timmy shows up.

I agree. Murray is not incompetent. He is greedy and he put his love of money before MJ's well being. It has nothing to do with his ability.

kibbles said:

nursev said:

prodigalfan said: Agreed and not to bring race into this,but for him to be a black doctor makes it worse!

okay, while timmy isn't looking: i've thought that race plays a strange role here in that people are willing to slap an 'incompetent' label on murray, thinking 'well, he's probably an affirmative action doctor, so what do you expect', soft bigotry of low expectations kind of thing, dumb ni**** kind of thing, and therefore they suspend disbelief when the reality is staring them in the face, that reality being that he's NOT incompetent, but that he killed or was willing to allow mj to die to save himself. ironically, if a white doc had been caught in this situation, i don't think the word 'incompetence' would be thrown around; everyone would be willing to accept the reality that no one is this 'incompetent' on purpose. except maybe a black doctor. you know what i mean?

i'm leaving before timmy shows up.

Yeah! You better, because that's total bs!

prodigalfan said:

nursev said:

prodigalfan said:

I said that meaning that you would think he would want to look after Michael better, but imma let it go before Timmy hurts me

Ohhhh. Yep. I agree. I didn't even think of it that way. And I know Timmy you are right Black is black. But I can't explain the culture of people from the island... so even though we look alike, I don't feel the kinship that I do with other Black Americans.

I hope you can understand that I am not being funny or racist.... just a realist.

And I will end here... will discuss in orgnotes because I don't want to derail this thread or Crockett will throttle me.

..and we shouldnt be compared to them. They have no background to our personal history in America just as we do not to Jamacia or any other foreign land. I dont feel any kinship to them at all.

back to the subject.