alphastreet said:

prodigalfan said:

Morphine and Demerol are 2 different medications. Both for pain, but not even in the same family of drugs.

Actually, I don't understand why Demerol was used for MJ. We hardly ever use that drug anymore because it is not very effective. Causes seizures if overused.

mostly Morphine and morphine derivatives... Dilaudid, oxycontin, vicodin etc.

Is Demerol effective for migraines along with pain issues? If he was having issues with that, maybe that's why it was used...

prodigalfan said:

kibbles said:

i think the truth lies here.

if murray had the pulse meter, the ambu, the oxygen tanks, the iv drip, the catheter, etc., as a layperson would mj know that he also needed x, y and z, in case something went wrong?

plus, when you consider the character witnesses talking about murray's attentiveness, his willingness to answer their questions, and apparent knowledge, i think you can infer that he came across that way to mj as well. let's say even in the worst case scenario that murray told mj that this plan was outside normal med practice or unethical and they needed to keep it on the down low, mj still might have been willing to take the risk based on murray's appearance of 'trustworthiness'.

if murray talked about the risks, i'm sure he did his best to allay mj's fears since one, that's what mj wanted to hear, and two, murray wanted this job. i don't think mj ever considered that murray might ever walk out of the room while the propofol drip was going. that's the thing that trips me out. why did he do that?

right! And I have to believe that MJ was under the impression that all precautions would be taken.... otherwise he would have hired someone else. I am sure Murray was not the only one he vetted for this job. If Murray was incapable of doing it correctly, he would have kept searching for someone else.

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

lazycrockett said:

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

Whatever the nurse said didn't really help the doctor's case though.

prodigalfan said:

alphastreet said:

Is Demerol effective for migraines along with pain issues? If he was having issues with that, maybe that's why it was used...

Just asked my office mate (in Nursing Practioner program). Yes, Demerol is used for migraines.

Yeah that's what I thought, I know of someone with a head injury from years ago who still needs it for managing the pain.

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Is there a particular order of who presents their final arguments first or is it strictly up to the judge? I'm not familiar with the protocol.

lazycrockett said:

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Then why didn't they present their story more accurate than what they presented??? Their plots didn't make much sense out of a molehill.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:42pm]

lazycrockett said:

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Co-sign this. I wasn't impressed at all. All of their moves were predictable and weak to me. I'm going to crack the hell up if the jury take like 5 min. deliberating and come back with a quick verdict

Timmy84 said:

lazycrockett said:

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Then why didn't they present their story more accurate than what they presented??? Their plots didn't make much sense out of a molehill.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:42pm]

Honestly I have no clue, but to base your case solo on only one expert, Dr. White, is ameturish at best for any defense.

lazycrockett said:

Timmy84 said:

Then why didn't they present their story more accurate than what they presented??? Their plots didn't make much sense out of a molehill.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:42pm]

Honestly I have no clue, but to base your case solo on only one expert, Dr. White, is ameturish at best for any defense.

Yeah and it also shows that all the defense was really doing was grasping at straws that didn't quite fit the cup they were trying to put a hole in. In other words, nothing stuck.

lazycrockett said:

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

I believe that he was informed about propofol by others even though Murray didn't bother to get a signed consent. What I wonder about is if Mike knew that he was not getting even a minimal level of monitoring while he was under. At the very least I think he assumed that his doctor would have been more vigilant.

Like somebody already said, dude only had one patient. For the amount of clams that were being paid out you would think that proper monitoring equipment and at least one nurse's aid would have been well within the budget. Maybe Murray assured him it wasn't necessary or perhaps he didn't think to ask. We'll never know.

Timmy84 said:

lazycrockett said:

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

Whatever the nurse said didn't really help the doctor's case though.

yes, we've already discussed that mj had been advised of the risks.

i've heard *other* people opine that propofol doesn't provide REM sleep, but clearly mj would beg to differ. mj's stated that it was some of the best sleep he had while under its influence. if it wasn't triggering something in his body to help him fall asleep, why would he have been asking for it?

before you even start, don't whip out the addiction canard. when mj went to see nurse lee, he was seeking out homeopathic remedies. they weren't working, so he asked her about the propofol, which based on the posts above, seems to have been introduced to him as a "sleep aid" by dr. ratner when he was on tour in '97. but there is no evidence that mj had been taking propofol in the intervening years until murray started buying it in april 2009. the dea traced all the propofol found at mj's back to murray.

if there had been any 'stash' purchased before then, the d.a. would have had to turn that info over to the def under the fed rules of evidence as well as the california evidence code as part of discovery. imo, that still wouldn't have meant anything as this trial was about murray's actions on the day of mj's death.

Musicslave said:

Is there a particular order of who presents their final arguments first or is it strictly up to the judge? I'm not familiar with the protocol.

The prosecution goes first unless both parties stipulate otherwise. In some states the prosecution has the option of rebuttal after closing arguments...not sure if Cali is one of them.

babynoz said:

lazycrockett said:

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

I believe that he was informed about propofol by others even though Murray didn't bother to get a signed consent. What I wonder about is if Mike knew that he was not getting even a minimal level of monitoring while he was under. At the very least I think he assumed that his doctor would have been more vigilant.

Like somebody already said, dude only had one patient. For the amount of clams that were being paid out you would think that proper monitoring equipment and at least one nurse's aid would have been well within the budget. Maybe Murray assured him it wasn't necessary or perhaps he didn't think to ask. We'll never know.

baby, you answered your own question.

no, mj did not know he wasn't getting the minimal level of monitoring while he was under, and yes, i think we can deduce from all of this that mj assumed that murray would be being vigilant.

as we've discussed, mj knew that careful monitoring was required even though propofol has a general reputation for being safe. so why would he have hired murray if he thought for a second that murray would be walking around talking on the phone?

as i posted above, those character witnesses and his employees think the world of murray. prior to june 25, i'm sure that mj thought he was great, too. even after the 'episode' that frank dileo talked about, mj still allowed murray to come to his house and put him under. he didn't believe that murray didn't have his best interests at heart.

babynoz said:

Musicslave said:

Is there a particular order of who presents their final arguments first or is it strictly up to the judge? I'm not familiar with the protocol.

The prosecution goes first unless both parties stipulate otherwise. In some states the prosecution has the option of rebuttal after closing arguments...not sure if Cali is one of them.

yes, it is.

Musicslave said:

lazycrockett said:

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Co-sign this. I wasn't impressed at all. All of their moves were predictable and weak to me. I'm going to crack the hell up if the jury take like 5 min. deliberating and come back with a quick verdict

I'm not sure if a plea deal was offered? You can't decide to take a plea deal unless the DA agrees to it. If he had tried to plead no contest for example, the DA could still throw the book at him if memory serves.

I think the defense's whole strategy was stupid given all the evidence stacked against them. Without a plea deal on the table they should have argued accidental death and tried to mitigate the damage in hopes of getting Murray a lighter sentence instead of claiming no guilt on his part and trying push a scenario where the patient somehow took himself out. I doubt the jury will buy that version of events.

I don't think it will take the jury long to decide this one.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

The prosecution goes first unless both parties stipulate otherwise. In some states the prosecution has the option of rebuttal after closing arguments...not sure if Cali is one of them.

yes, it is.

Thanks.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

I believe that he was informed about propofol by others even though Murray didn't bother to get a signed consent. What I wonder about is if Mike knew that he was not getting even a minimal level of monitoring while he was under. At the very least I think he assumed that his doctor would have been more vigilant.

Like somebody already said, dude only had one patient. For the amount of clams that were being paid out you would think that proper monitoring equipment and at least one nurse's aid would have been well within the budget. Maybe Murray assured him it wasn't necessary or perhaps he didn't think to ask. We'll never know.

baby, you answered your own question.

no, mj did not know he wasn't getting the minimal level of monitoring while he was under, and yes, i think we can deduce from all of this that mj assumed that murray would be being vigilant.

as we've discussed, mj knew that careful monitoring was required even though propofol has a general reputation for being safe. so why would he have hired murray if he thought for a second that murray would be walking around talking on the phone?

as i posted above, those character witnesses and his employees think the world of murray. prior to june 25, i'm sure that mj thought he was great, too. even after the 'episode' that frank dileo talked about, mj still allowed murray to come to his house and put him under. he didn't believe that murray didn't have his best interests at heart.

Agreed.

lazycrockett said:

But didnt the nurse who came forward after MJ died and told bout how propofal worked, which he asked her bout, and what precautions needed to be taken? I think MJ knew the risk he was taking, cause he was using a drug that DIDNT in any way provide REM sleep.

I don't think most people understand the whole concept of REM sleep and how important it is to have REM sleep. Most people think sleep is sleep.

and about the nurse.... do you know how many times I have suggested as strongly as possible without being contradictory to the doctor that maybe a procedure is ill advised for a patient. You know you tell the side effects, the patient's advance age etc...

and the patient is giving it some serious thought and then the doctor comes along and all that careful consideration goes out the window.

the patient will be like an obedient lamb and listen to whatever the doctor says because after all, who are you going to believe? A nurse? or the DOCTOR???

Musicslave said:

lazycrockett said:

(In response to Timmy) Cause I don't think anyone on the defense thought to bring it up. Honestly I cant believe what the defense argument was all they had. If that was it they should have saved everyones time and took a plea bargin.

[Edited 11/2/11 13:32pm]

Co-sign this. I wasn't impressed at all. All of their moves were predictable and weak to me. I'm going to crack the hell up if the jury take like 5 min. deliberating and come back with a quick verdict

Let me go on record with this thought:

I think he will walk. I really do. Sorry. I just have little faith in the "justice" system especially in California.

Robert Blake walked... as did OJ, and even though the case was not held in Cali... it was held in Florida, Casey Anthony walked as well.

I just think juries are ill advised, gullible or corrupt.

prodigalfan said:

Musicslave said:

Co-sign this. I wasn't impressed at all. All of their moves were predictable and weak to me. I'm going to crack the hell up if the jury take like 5 min. deliberating and come back with a quick verdict

Let me go on record with this thought:

I think he will walk. I really do. Sorry. I just have little faith in the "justice" system especially in California.

Robert Blake walked... as did OJ, and even though the case was not held in Cali... it was held in Florida, Casey Anthony walked as well.

I just think juries are ill advised, gullible or corrupt.

I don't trust the justice system either but I don't know, I guess I'm still an optimist in THAT regard.

prodigalfan said:

Musicslave said:

Co-sign this. I wasn't impressed at all. All of their moves were predictable and weak to me. I'm going to crack the hell up if the jury take like 5 min. deliberating and come back with a quick verdict

Let me go on record with this thought:

I think he will walk. I really do. Sorry. I just have little faith in the "justice" system especially in California.

Robert Blake walked... as did OJ, and even though the case was not held in Cali... it was held in Florida, Casey Anthony walked as well.

I just think juries are ill advised, gullible or corrupt.

Well to be honest I dont think that the cases you mentioned can be compared to this case. I don't think that Murray in any way killed his cash cow. There is no logic in stopping the next check from being signed. Was he negligent, well I think everyone agrees from the get go that he and MJ was fine with what was going and that it wasn't "proper prodecure". Yes I repeat I think MJ knew everything there was bout propofal before Murrary came into the scene.

Unless the defense comes up with a brilliant closing statement, and there is still reasonable doubt in play cause I think that Dr. White did a good job on how propofal sticks to tubes and how none was in the drip that the prosecution stated how it was injected, but was on the leg cathater. BUT that is the only thing the defense has.

I think he will be found guilty, but I think at the end of the day he will get his medical liscense suspended in the state of calfornia and maybe be put under house arrest for less than a year. Since this is just a involuntary manslaughter charge Im pretty sure hes able to profit from all of this. I see Oprah doing on interview on OWN by 2012, with a book out for christmas.

DonRants said:

prodigalfan said:

okay, there it is.

So MJ DID do this before with another doctor who was an ANESTHESIOLOGIST. I bet this doctor took all the necessary precautions, had assistance watch the entire time MJ was under, and had all the monitoring.

He probably charged quite a bit more than Murray. So Murray "bid" was probably lower than all the rest.

Golly, it is making me SICK to think this.... but you get what you pay for. Murray's price was bargain basement in the area of this "propofol therapy" and that is what MJ got ...... bargain basement performance.

Not quite Prodigalfan. Read this little number to see what type of doctor he was. This guy was seriously "Dangerous". He would shoot himself up with Morphine while seeing patients: Dr. Murray comes off smelling like roses compared to this guy. Although not stated in the article it is logical to assume that he was giving MJ both Propofol and Morphine (Demerol).

Go to the following link if you want to read it more clearly.

http://drlauersen.com/nratner.htm

Crocked Doc Won't Say If He Gave Drugs To Jax
New York Daily News ©
February 09, 2000

An upper East Side doctor who shot himself up with morphine while treating patients said yesterday that he was pop star Michael Jackson's tour doctor in 1997.

Dr. Neil Ratner, testifying yesterday in the insurance fraud trial of high-profile infertility expert Dr. Niels Lauersen, was evasive when asked if he had administered drugs to the Gloved One. "Would you give Michael Jackson drugs?" Lauersen's demanded attorney, Theodore Wells.

"I'm not going to discuss a patient's personal medical condition," Ratner replied.

In a telephone interview from Los Angeles, Jackson's attorney, Brian Wolf, said the singer "denies that Dr. Ratner ever prescribed any inappropriate medications or treatments."

Wolf insisted that any medical treatment is confidential and said Ratner was correct not to disclose it.

Ratner, a 49-year-old ex-rock 'n' roll drummer and manager of Peter Frampton and Edgar Winter, has been on the stand for days, admitting he repeatedly took drugs while caring for patients during the 1980s. In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.

Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.."

And this number:

nd for those of you who asked WHO NEIL RATNER is: "The government's star witness was Dr. Neil Ratner, Lauersen's former anesthesiologist, who testified to a deliberate office policy of falsifying insurance forms. The prosecution knew Ratner would be a shaky witness, so the attorneys started the questioning by having him admit to dodging the draft, to being unable to get into an American med school, to dealing drugs, and to being "pretty stoned a lot of the time I was giving anesthesia," once accidentally injecting himself with a paralyzing agent on the job."

---

Click Here to Read the Ratner Vanity Fair Article; and read more about the

[Edited 11/1/11 21:51pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 21:53pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 21:57pm]

My God, you're right. Conrad Murray seems like an angel next to this guy. Murray at least had a clean record before he met Michael. This other guy was clearly a long-term sleazebag. And that's why he got the job.

kibbles said:

Timmy84 said:

Whatever the nurse said didn't really help the doctor's case though.

yes, we've already discussed that mj had been advised of the risks.

i've heard *other* people opine that propofol doesn't provide REM sleep, but clearly mj would beg to differ. mj's stated that it was some of the best sleep he had while under its influence. if it wasn't triggering something in his body to help him fall asleep, why would he have been asking for it?

before you even start, don't whip out the addiction canard. when mj went to see nurse lee, he was seeking out homeopathic remedies. they weren't working, so he asked her about the propofol, which based on the posts above, seems to have been introduced to him as a "sleep aid" by dr. ratner when he was on tour in '97. but there is no evidence that mj had been taking propofol in the intervening years until murray started buying it in april 2009. the dea traced all the propofol found at mj's back to murray.

if there had been any 'stash' purchased before then, the d.a. would have had to turn that info over to the def under the fed rules of evidence as well as the california evidence code as part of discovery. imo, that still wouldn't have meant anything as this trial was about murray's actions on the day of mj's death.

Again, you're giving false information. Jackson never asked Nurse Lee for homeopathic remedies for his sleep problem. He was clear from the start that the only thing that worked was propofol. She persuaded him to try homeopathic treatments for it and he was actually angry with her the following morning because they hadn't worked.

Just to avoid potential confusion, he first approached her for issues that had nothing to do with his insomnia. When it came to his insomnia he was adamant from the start only propofol would work (the specific brand he was asking for was diprovan).

PatrickS77 said:

Yes. I think so too. Michael would not put knowingly his life at risk. He knows what he wants and he knows how to get it and he will do everything to get it, but to knowingly risk his life?? That is so not like him.

Yes he did knowlngly put his life at risk. On a daily basis. Aneasthesia is always a risk. Always. Everytime someone has surgery and accepts general Aneasthesia they are putting their life at risk. The fact that MJ was willing to do this on a nightly basis was insanely reckleck.

.

Now let me qualify that. I have seen the despearatiion people get when they cannot sleep. It is not easy and so I can empatize with his frustration. But to take Propofol which does not produce sleep...MJ really showed a tremendous lack of judgement. He did this knowingly because he was warned by several doctors and that caring nurse Cherilyn Lee (Sp?)

lazycrockett said:

prodigalfan said:

Let me go on record with this thought:

I think he will walk. I really do. Sorry. I just have little faith in the "justice" system especially in California.

Robert Blake walked... as did OJ, and even though the case was not held in Cali... it was held in Florida, Casey Anthony walked as well.

I just think juries are ill advised, gullible or corrupt.

. Since this is just a involuntary manslaughter charge Im pretty sure hes able to profit from all of this. I see Oprah doing on interview on OWN by 2012, with a book out for christmas.

The New York Post is reporting that he's already shopping a documentary around to the networks.

http://www.nypost.com/p/p...ost10Alpha

midnightmover said:

My God, you're right. Conrad Murray seems like an angel next to this guy. Murray at least had a clean record before he met Michael. This other guy was clearly a long-term sleazebag. And that's why he got the job.

Again people are not putting the pieces together. Not you midnightmover but in general, including sometimes me, myself. One of the worse things about this trial is that the Judge so severly limited the defense. But MJs behavior is quite normal for someone with a drug dependency. I remember a few years before MJ passed the story of his association with gay porn producer Marc Schaffel, I believe. MJ was causght on the phone asking for his "Milk"...do you remember that? Well when Marc wasn't paid he treathened to go public with the whole story of who MJ "really" was. The case was quickly settled supposedly because MJ did not want his financies made public. But obviously MJ was hiding a lot more than that.

http://www.tmz.com/2006/07/10/jackson-says-he-was-shocked-by-gay-porn/#.TrKvf3Ia_pg

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jackson-hit-3-million-lawsuit

NaughtyKitty said:

lazycrockett said:

. Since this is just a involuntary manslaughter charge Im pretty sure hes able to profit from all of this. I see Oprah doing on interview on OWN by 2012, with a book out for christmas.

The New York Post is reporting that he's already shopping a documentary around to the networks.

http://www.nypost.com/p/p...ost10Alpha

Do not believe a thing that comes from the New York Post. They are a tabloid rag.

babynoz said:

kibbles said:

yes, it is.

Thanks.

Thanks guys.