Hey, guys! I do not really watch the court in the past 2 weeks, so I want to ask: when will the verdict? Who wins and what was important during this time?

It's looking good for the prosecution, however, the defense not only keeps changing their stories, but they keep adding information not there before and saying different things. In a nutshell, they are trying to create reasonable doubt about what happened on June 25th. Closing arguments are on Thursday, so we can expect a verdict sometime next week I'm guessing.

prodigalfan said:

Question: Has it come out in trial testimony that MJ did in fact recive propofol for an earlier tour by another doctor?

Who was that doctor? Did he testify as well?

I can't (and sadly can) believe that another doctor would do something foolhardy as this.

No, it wasnt, but his name is Neil Ratner. There is an article about him regarding a different court case and Michael was named. Also there is a picture of him and Michael in South Africa on the HIStory tour. CNN even spoke to him shortly after Michaels death. They went to his home, he confirmed that he knew Michael, but refused to comment further. He is an anesthesiologist though. He know what the fuck he was doing, unless an other doctor.

L4OATheOriginal said:

midnightmover said:

It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 7:02am]

i'm sorry but i agree with this

Yes! Sadly it is.. thats why I cant totally hate Murray and also feel kinda indifferent and numb towards him.

alphastreet said:

It's looking good for the prosecution, however, the defense not only keeps changing their stories, but they keep adding information not there before and saying different things. In a nutshell, they are trying to create reasonable doubt about what happened on June 25th. Closing arguments are on Thursday, so we can expect a verdict sometime next week I'm guessing.

IKR? How much you wanna bet that they'll try one last time to slip another, "Michael did it theory" up in their closing arguement?

Musicslave said:

alphastreet said:

It's looking good for the prosecution, however, the defense not only keeps changing their stories, but they keep adding information not there before and saying different things. In a nutshell, they are trying to create reasonable doubt about what happened on June 25th. Closing arguments are on Thursday, so we can expect a verdict sometime next week I'm guessing.

IKR? How much you wanna bet that they'll try one last time to slip another, "Michael did it theory" up in their closing arguement?

Oh they will in some way lol

Michael mixed Jesus Blood with Propofol, I can just see that one coming...

L4OATheOriginal said:

midnightmover said:

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 7:02am]

i'm sorry but i agree with this

It's not really about fans excusing MJ's actions, at least for me. Remember, this is a courtroom, not a backyard fence conversation where the parties get to speculate back and forth endlessly like we are doing on this thread.

The jury is supposed to base their decision on relevant testimony, facts and evidence, not specualtion, opinion and heresay because that's not admissible.

Simply put, the prosecution established that negligence and malpractice occurred leading to the death of the patient so the defense would have to establish reasonable doubt that any misconduct occurred. Whatever leverage MJ used to get his way is not relevant.

babynoz said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

i'm sorry but i agree with this

It's not really about fans excusing MJ's actions, at least for me. Remember, this is a courtroom, not a backyard fence conversation where the parties get to speculate back and forth endlessly like we are doing on this thread.

The jury is supposed to base their decision on relevant testimony, facts and evidence, not specualtion, opinion and heresay because that's not admissible.

Simply put, the prosecution established that negligence and malpractice occurred leading to the death of the patient so the defense would have to establish reasonable doubt that any misconduct occurred. Whatever leverage MJ used to get his way is not relevant.

And that's why it shouldn't matter when it comes to what ONE MAN did.

alphastreet said:

I wonder how long the jury will be given to discuss the verdict

Generally speaking there's no formal time limit. What usually happens is the jury communicates their questions or concerns to the judge through notes passed on by the bailiff. If the judge suspects a hung jury or mistrial he will reconvene court to address the issue. If they seem close to a verdict he will allow them to continue deliberating.

I gotta say it again, this judge is really on point procedurally unlike that clown Ito from the OJ trial.

Once the closing arguments are done and the case goes to the jury I don't anticipate a long drawn out deliberation.

babynoz said:

alphastreet said:

I wonder how long the jury will be given to discuss the verdict

Generally speaking there's no formal time limit. What usually happens is the jury communicates their questions or concerns to the judge through notes passed on by the bailiff. If the judge suspects a hung jury or mistrial he will reconvene court to address the issue. If they seem close to a verdict he will allow them to continue deliberating.

I gotta say it again, this judge is really on point procedurally unlike that clown Ito from the OJ trial.

Once the closing arguments are done and the case goes to the jury I don't anticipate a long drawn out deliberation.

Me either...

Timmy84 said:

babynoz said:

It's not really about fans excusing MJ's actions, at least for me. Remember, this is a courtroom, not a backyard fence conversation where the parties get to speculate back and forth endlessly like we are doing on this thread.

The jury is supposed to base their decision on relevant testimony, facts and evidence, not specualtion, opinion and heresay because that's not admissible.

Simply put, the prosecution established that negligence and malpractice occurred leading to the death of the patient so the defense would have to establish reasonable doubt that any misconduct occurred. Whatever leverage MJ used to get his way is not relevant.

And that's why it shouldn't matter when it comes to what ONE MAN did.

Exactly, because the defense did not provide any testimony or evidence that Murray was coerced or intimidated into doing what he did. They didn't even try to imply that.

Instead they chose to go with the theory that MJ somehow overdosed himself, making this essentially a battle of whose experts are more credible based on their testimony and on the evidence presented.

Add to that the strong evidence that Murray lied to the cops and the ER doctor, plus the testimony from security that he engaged in some cover-up activity before calling 911 and that he himself pretty much admitted to mishandling the emergency and it's obvious that none of the speculation some peeps are posting here is relevant to those facts.

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

And that's why it shouldn't matter when it comes to what ONE MAN did.

Exactly, because the defense did not provide any testimony or evidence that Murray was coerced or intimidated into doing what he did. They didn't even try to imply that.

Instead they chose to go with the theory that MJ somehow overdosed himself, making this essentially a battle of whose experts are more credible based on their testimony and on the evidence presented.

Add to that the strong evidence that Murray lied to the cops and the ER doctor, plus the testimony from security that he engaged in some cover-up activity before calling 911 and that he himself pretty much admitted to mishandling the emergency and it's obvious that none of the speculation some peeps are posting here is relevant to those facts.

exactly.

mj didn't coerce murray into doing ANYTHING. they both knew the risks. murray was not mj's hapless, helpless victim. that other doctor, meltzer, who had known mj over 15 years, had no trouble walking away from mj and his money and telling him the truth. murray had as much if not more information about propofol as meltzer. but murray wanted the money - imo, not to get out from under his financial obligations - but to keep throwing his money away on his strippers and other vices. he was a doctor making damn good money, yet he couldn't - WOULDN'T - pay his fucking child support. he was leaving $1500 "tips" for "hostesses" in strip clubs, all the while he was in arrears on his obligations to his children. if he had been watching mj, and none of this had happened, he would have gone to london and would have been all up in *their* strip clubs making it rain, financial obligations be damned. he's a man of low character, and was long before he met mj.

to be arguing that murray was somehow being manipulated by mj or that he was at mj's mercy is absolute utter bullshit. mj has already paid dearly for his role in this, and hopefully soon, so will murray.

[Edited 11/1/11 17:08pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 18:46pm]

PatrickS77 said:

prodigalfan said:

Question: Has it come out in trial testimony that MJ did in fact recive propofol for an earlier tour by another doctor?

Who was that doctor? Did he testify as well?

I can't (and sadly can) believe that another doctor would do something foolhardy as this.

No, it wasnt, but his name is Neil Ratner. There is an article about him regarding a different court case and Michael was named. Also there is a picture of him and Michael in South Africa on the HIStory tour. CNN even spoke to him shortly after Michaels death. They went to his home, he confirmed that he knew Michael, but refused to comment further. He is an anesthesiologist though. He know what the fuck he was doing, unless an other doctor.

okay, there it is.

So MJ DID do this before with another doctor who was an ANESTHESIOLOGIST. I bet this doctor took all the necessary precautions, had assistance watch the entire time MJ was under, and had all the monitoring.

He probably charged quite a bit more than Murray. So Murray "bid" was probably lower than all the rest.

Golly, it is making me SICK to think this.... but you get what you pay for. Murray's price was bargain basement in the area of this "propofol therapy" and that is what MJ got ...... bargain basement performance.

alphastreet said:

Michael mixed Jesus Blood with Propofol Michael's Milk, I can just see that one coming...

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

Exactly, because the defense did not provide any testimony or evidence that Murray was coerced or intimidated into doing what he did. They didn't even try to imply that.

Instead they chose to go with the theory that MJ somehow overdosed himself, making this essentially a battle of whose experts are more credible based on their testimony and on the evidence presented.

Add to that the strong evidence that Murray lied to the cops and the ER doctor, plus the testimony from security that he engaged in some cover-up activity before calling 911 and that he himself pretty much admitted to mishandling the emergency and it's obvious that none of the speculation some peeps are posting here is relevant to those facts.

exactly.

mj didn't coerce murray into doing ANYTHING. they both knew the risks. murray was not mj's hapless, helpless victim. that other doctor, meltzer, who had known mj over 15 years, had no trouble walking away from mj and his money and telling him the truth. murray had as much if not more information about propofol as meltzer. but murray wanted the money - imo, not to get out from under his financial obligations - but to keep throwing his money away on his strippers and other vices. he was a doctor making damn good money, yet he couldn't - WOULDN'T - pay his fucking child support. he's was leaving $1500 "tips" for "hostesses" in strip clubs, all the while he was arrears on his obligations to his children. if he had been watching mj, and none of this had happened, he would have gone to london and would have been all up in *their* strip clubs making it rain, financial obligations be damned. he's a man of low character, and was long before he met mj.

to be arguing that murray was somehow being manipulated by mj or that he was at mj's mercy is absolute utter bullshit. mj has already paid dearly for his role in this, and hopefully soon, so will murray.

[Edited 11/1/11 17:08pm]

prodigalfan said:

PatrickS77 said:

No, it wasnt, but his name is Neil Ratner. There is an article about him regarding a different court case and Michael was named. Also there is a picture of him and Michael in South Africa on the HIStory tour. CNN even spoke to him shortly after Michaels death. They went to his home, he confirmed that he knew Michael, but refused to comment further. He is an anesthesiologist though. He know what the fuck he was doing, unless an other doctor.

okay, there it is.

So MJ DID do this before with another doctor who was an ANESTHESIOLOGIST. I bet this doctor took all the necessary precautions, had assistance watch the entire time MJ was under, and had all the monitoring.

He probably charged quite a bit more than Murray. So Murray "bid" was probably lower than all the rest.

Golly, it is making me SICK to think this.... but you get what you pay for. Murray's price was bargain basement in the area of this "propofol therapy" and that is what MJ got ...... bargain basement performance.

as i understand it, mj was willing to pay murray whatever he wanted. murray wanted $5m, which mj apparently didn't balk at, but aeg and frank dileo did. frank allegedly told mj, 'for $5m, we could build you a hospital'. mj supposed said to give murray whatever he wants, whatever it takes to get him to take the job.

somehow, frank and aeg were able to get the price down to the $150,000/mo figure, a far cry from the $5m murray was looking for - someone posted it would have been about $1.8m total by the time the tour ended - but it was still likely far more than he was making on his welfare/soc sec patients. because if murray was just breaking even, i can't imagine him taking the job.

Well that just makes things even more tragic. MJ was willing to pay more and with more possibly Murracy could have done things a little more safer, more people working with proper equipment.

but the corporation wouldn't cover the cost.

So I take it the corporation was responsible for doctor for MJ.

wow.

Well, putting myself in those shoes... if the corporation wouldn't pay, then I would have to kick in the costs. or I would not have the "treatment". Too risky.

Unless of course MJ was not properly informed of the risk.. of not just the procedure itself, but the different components of the treatment and how omitting one component of the procedure (ie, proper equipment, or adequate competent nurses/CRNA) how that omission can make a procedure that is safe in some circumstances become UNSAFE when any one of those components are missing.

That is the thing about this case... how much did MJ know? We will never know because there was no notes, no evidence of a signed informed consent.

prodigalfan said:

PatrickS77 said:

No, it wasnt, but his name is Neil Ratner. There is an article about him regarding a different court case and Michael was named. Also there is a picture of him and Michael in South Africa on the HIStory tour. CNN even spoke to him shortly after Michaels death. They went to his home, he confirmed that he knew Michael, but refused to comment further. He is an anesthesiologist though. He know what the fuck he was doing, unless an other doctor.

okay, there it is.

So MJ DID do this before with another doctor who was an ANESTHESIOLOGIST. I bet this doctor took all the necessary precautions, had assistance watch the entire time MJ was under, and had all the monitoring.

He probably charged quite a bit more than Murray. So Murray "bid" was probably lower than all the rest.

Golly, it is making me SICK to think this.... but you get what you pay for. Murray's price was bargain basement in the area of this "propofol therapy" and that is what MJ got ...... bargain basement performance.

Not quite Prodigalfan. Read this little number to see what type of doctor he was. This guy was seriously "Dangerous". He would shoot himself up with Morphine while seeing patients: Dr. Murray comes off smelling like roses compared to this guy. Although not stated in the article it is logical to assume that he was giving MJ both Propofol and Morphine (Demerol).

Go to the following link if you want to read it more clearly.

http://drlauersen.com/nratner.htm

Crocked Doc Won't Say If He Gave Drugs To Jax
New York Daily News ©
February 09, 2000

An upper East Side doctor who shot himself up with morphine while treating patients said yesterday that he was pop star Michael Jackson's tour doctor in 1997.

Dr. Neil Ratner, testifying yesterday in the insurance fraud trial of high-profile infertility expert Dr. Niels Lauersen, was evasive when asked if he had administered drugs to the Gloved One. "Would you give Michael Jackson drugs?" Lauersen's demanded attorney, Theodore Wells.

"I'm not going to discuss a patient's personal medical condition," Ratner replied.

In a telephone interview from Los Angeles, Jackson's attorney, Brian Wolf, said the singer "denies that Dr. Ratner ever prescribed any inappropriate medications or treatments."

Wolf insisted that any medical treatment is confidential and said Ratner was correct not to disclose it.

Ratner, a 49-year-old ex-rock 'n' roll drummer and manager of Peter Frampton and Edgar Winter, has been on the stand for days, admitting he repeatedly took drugs while caring for patients during the 1980s. In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.

Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.."

And this number:

nd for those of you who asked WHO NEIL RATNER is: "The government's star witness was Dr. Neil Ratner, Lauersen's former anesthesiologist, who testified to a deliberate office policy of falsifying insurance forms. The prosecution knew Ratner would be a shaky witness, so the attorneys started the questioning by having him admit to dodging the draft, to being unable to get into an American med school, to dealing drugs, and to being "pretty stoned a lot of the time I was giving anesthesia," once accidentally injecting himself with a paralyzing agent on the job."

Click Here to Read the Ratner ...ir Article; and read more about the

[Edited 11/1/11 21:51pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 21:53pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 21:57pm]

prodigalfan said:

Well that just makes things even more tragic. MJ was willing to pay more and with more possibly Murracy could have done things a little more safer, more people working with proper equipment.

but the corporation wouldn't cover the cost.

So I take it the corporation was responsible for doctor for MJ.

wow.

Well, putting myself in those shoes... if the corporation wouldn't pay, then I would have to kick in the costs. or I would not have the "treatment". Too risky.

Unless of course MJ was not properly informed of the risk.. of not just the procedure itself, but the different components of the treatment and how omitting one component of the procedure (ie, proper equipment, or adequate competent nurses/CRNA) how that omission can make a procedure that is safe in some circumstances become UNSAFE when any one of those components are missing.

That is the thing about this case... how much did MJ know? We will never know because there was no notes, no evidence of a signed informed consent.

i think the truth lies here.

if murray had the pulse meter, the ambu, the oxygen tanks, the iv drip, the catheter, etc., as a layperson would mj know that he also needed x, y and z, in case something went wrong?

plus, when you consider the character witnesses talking about murray's attentiveness, his willingness to answer their questions, and apparent knowledge, i think you can infer that he came across that way to mj as well. let's say even in the worst case scenario that murray told mj that this plan was outside normal med practice or unethical and they needed to keep it on the down low, mj still might have been willing to take the risk based on murray's appearance of 'trustworthiness'.

if murray talked about the risks, i'm sure he did his best to allay mj's fears since one, that's what mj wanted to hear, and two, murray wanted this job. i don't think mj ever considered that murray might ever walk out of the room while the propofol drip was going. that's the thing that trips me out. why did he do that?

Unholyalliance said:

midnightmover said:

Who said the doctor was an innocent lamb? Did you read my posts or just skim them? Murray is guilty and virtually no-one is arguing about that. However, it's foolish not to realize that Michael engineered this situation. Too many of you guys are ignoring that. That is my point.

lol @ the irony. I don't think that many of us here are absolving MJ of responsibilty in this situation, but he already paid his dues. Plus, they are BOTH responsible for the situation. BOTH of them, not just MJ, not just Conrad. BOTH of them. Though, one of them is, physically, responsible for the other's death.

Absolutely everything you're saying here is something I've already said. So basically you hurled abuse at me, even though you completely agree with my sentiments. Again, I really must ask you to properly read my posts before you respond. Go back over what I've said in this thread. You'll see your post could almost be a copy of my own.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

Exactly, because the defense did not provide any testimony or evidence that Murray was coerced or intimidated into doing what he did. They didn't even try to imply that.

Instead they chose to go with the theory that MJ somehow overdosed himself, making this essentially a battle of whose experts are more credible based on their testimony and on the evidence presented.

Add to that the strong evidence that Murray lied to the cops and the ER doctor, plus the testimony from security that he engaged in some cover-up activity before calling 911 and that he himself pretty much admitted to mishandling the emergency and it's obvious that none of the speculation some peeps are posting here is relevant to those facts.

exactly.

mj didn't coerce murray into doing ANYTHING. they both knew the risks. murray was not mj's hapless, helpless victim. that other doctor, meltzer, who had known mj over 15 years, had no trouble walking away from mj and his money and telling him the truth. murray had as much if not more information about propofol as meltzer. but murray wanted the money - imo, not to get out from under his financial obligations - but to keep throwing his money away on his strippers and other vices. he was a doctor making damn good money, yet he couldn't - WOULDN'T - pay his fucking child support. he was leaving $1500 "tips" for "hostesses" in strip clubs, all the while he was in arrears on his obligations to his children. if he had been watching mj, and none of this had happened, he would have gone to london and would have been all up in *their* strip clubs making it rain, financial obligations be damned. he's a man of low character, and was long before he met mj.

to be arguing that murray was somehow being manipulated by mj or that he was at mj's mercy is absolute utter bullshit. mj has already paid dearly for his role in this, and hopefully soon, so will murray.

[Edited 11/1/11 17:08pm]

[Edited 11/1/11 18:46pm]

No-one here is trying to excuse Murray. We're just alarmed at how one-dimensional some of you are when it comes to analysing the situation. Too often you portray Murray as some kind of Dr. Evil and Michael as a blameless angel.

Having said that, I'm pleased to see that some of you are starting to acknowledge the reality that Murray was merely a tool. If it hadn't have been him it would have been someone else. But of course, it wasn't someone else. It was Murray and it's right that he's heading to jail. In my opinion, all the other doctors who gave Michael the same treatment should be in jail too, regardless of whether the treatment worked or not.

I can't believe that Dr. Ratner was shooting himself up with Morphine while doing surgery on patients, that is just fucked up as hell, and to think he was treating Michael for HIStory *smh* he could have died then, I heard somewhere he almost did one time, but can't recall the details or the cause. Information overload.

I don't believe everything happens for a reason like I used to eons ago, cause something like what happened with MJ and Murray was so preventable, especially in the last crucial minutes, but I'm sure many in the medical community are outraged by the reputation Propofol has now. And I'm sure many medical professionals did unethical things too to themselves and in turn, others, when dealing with other people, and now that it's happened to one of the most famous people in the world if not the most famous, many are going to continue to be more skeptical and careful the way it should be.

[Edited 11/2/11 5:07am]

DonRants said:

Not quite Prodigalfan. Read this little number to see what type of doctor he was. This guy was seriously "Dangerous". He would shoot himself up with Morphine while seeing patients: Dr. Murray comes off smelling like roses compared to this guy. Although not stated in the article it is logical to assume that he was giving MJ both Propofol and Morphine (Demerol).

Morphine and Demerol are 2 different medications. Both for pain, but not even in the same family of drugs.

Actually, I don't understand why Demerol was used for MJ. We hardly ever use that drug anymore because it is not very effective. Causes seizures if overused.

mostly Morphine and morphine derivatives... Dilaudid, oxycontin, vicodin etc.

kibbles said:

prodigalfan said:

Well that just makes things even more tragic. MJ was willing to pay more and with more possibly Murracy could have done things a little more safer, more people working with proper equipment.

but the corporation wouldn't cover the cost.

So I take it the corporation was responsible for doctor for MJ.

wow.

Well, putting myself in those shoes... if the corporation wouldn't pay, then I would have to kick in the costs. or I would not have the "treatment". Too risky.

Unless of course MJ was not properly informed of the risk.. of not just the procedure itself, but the different components of the treatment and how omitting one component of the procedure (ie, proper equipment, or adequate competent nurses/CRNA) how that omission can make a procedure that is safe in some circumstances become UNSAFE when any one of those components are missing.

That is the thing about this case... how much did MJ know? We will never know because there was no notes, no evidence of a signed informed consent.

i think the truth lies here.

if murray had the pulse meter, the ambu, the oxygen tanks, the iv drip, the catheter, etc., as a layperson would mj know that he also needed x, y and z, in case something went wrong?

plus, when you consider the character witnesses talking about murray's attentiveness, his willingness to answer their questions, and apparent knowledge, i think you can infer that he came across that way to mj as well. let's say even in the worst case scenario that murray told mj that this plan was outside normal med practice or unethical and they needed to keep it on the down low, mj still might have been willing to take the risk based on murray's appearance of 'trustworthiness'.

if murray talked about the risks, i'm sure he did his best to allay mj's fears since one, that's what mj wanted to hear, and two, murray wanted this job. i don't think mj ever considered that murray might ever walk out of the room while the propofol drip was going. that's the thing that trips me out. why did he do that?

right! And I have to believe that MJ was under the impression that all precautions would be taken.... otherwise he would have hired someone else. I am sure Murray was not the only one he vetted for this job. If Murray was incapable of doing it correctly, he would have kept searching for someone else.

prodigalfan said:

DonRants said:

Not quite Prodigalfan. Read this little number to see what type of doctor he was. This guy was seriously "Dangerous". He would shoot himself up with Morphine while seeing patients: Dr. Murray comes off smelling like roses compared to this guy. Although not stated in the article it is logical to assume that he was giving MJ both Propofol and Morphine (Demerol).

Morphine and Demerol are 2 different medications. Both for pain, but not even in the same family of drugs.

Actually, I don't understand why Demerol was used for MJ. We hardly ever use that drug anymore because it is not very effective. Causes seizures if overused.

mostly Morphine and morphine derivatives... Dilaudid, oxycontin, vicodin etc.

Is Demerol effective for migraines along with pain issues? If he was having issues with that, maybe that's why it was used...

kibbles said:

as i understand it, mj was willing to pay murray whatever he wanted. murray wanted $5m, which mj apparently didn't balk at, but aeg and frank dileo did. frank allegedly told mj, 'for $5m, we could build you a hospital'. mj supposed said to give murray whatever he wants, whatever it takes to get him to take the job.

somehow, frank and aeg were able to get the price down to the $150,000/mo figure, a far cry from the $5m murray was looking for - someone posted it would have been about $1.8m total by the time the tour ended - but it was still likely far more than he was making on his welfare/soc sec patients. because if murray was just breaking even, i can't imagine him taking the job.

You are giving false information. Paul Gongaware (who handled the negotiations with Murray) testified that it was Michael who set the price. Murray originally asked for more, but as soon as he was told the price had been set personally by Michael he backed down and accepted the offer. Here is an account from that day's news. I've highlighted the relevant section.

September 27, 2011 (Courtesy of ABC News): In other testimony today, Paul Gongaware, co-CEO of AEG Live, testified about his own meeting with Michael Jackson in the early stages of rehearsals.

“He was a little bit off. His speech was just very slightly slurred and he was a little slower than I’d known him to be,” Gongaware said of the meeting.

Gongaware said that Jackson had come from his doctor, but he couldn’t remember if Jackson had come from Murray or his dermatologist, Arnold Klein.

It was Gongaware that hired Murray to be Jackson’s personal tour physician. He said that Jackson insisted on Murray, despite Gongaware’s urging that a British doctor be hired since the concerts would be taking place in London.

Gongaware recounted Jackson pointing to his own body and saying, “this is the machine, we have to take care of the machine. This is what I want. I want Doctor Murray.”

Murray originally asked for $5 million a year, Gongaware said.

“I told him there was no way that was going to happen,” he said. “Michael couldn’t afford it.”

Negotiations temporarily stalled at that point until Jackson told Gongaware to offer Murray $150,000 a month.

Murray originally refused that offer as well until Gongaware told him that the offer came directly from Jackson.

Prosecutors used both Ortega’s and Gongaware’s testimony to paint Murray as a reckless, money hungry doctor who was well aware of the impact the sedatives and the powerful anesthetic propofol were having on his patient.

In addition, Walgren showed a photo of Jackson dancing at the Staples Center the night before he overdosed on propofol and put the picture side by side with a picture of Jackson lying lifeless in a hospital bed.

“What happened between that time and approximately 12 hours later when Michael Jackson is dead on June 25, 2009?” Walgren asked. “What you will learn through the evidence is that what happened during that time frame is that the acts and omissions of Michael Jackson’s personal doctor, Conrad Murray, directly led to his premature death at the age of 50.”

The packed courtroom included most of Michael Jackson’s siblings and his parents. When the photo of Jackson lying on the hospital bed was shown, his sisters could be seen passing tissues to one another.

sources: LMJ, ABC News

[Edited 11/3/11 4:54am]

prodigalfan said:

kibbles said:

i think the truth lies here.

if murray had the pulse meter, the ambu, the oxygen tanks, the iv drip, the catheter, etc., as a layperson would mj know that he also needed x, y and z, in case something went wrong?

plus, when you consider the character witnesses talking about murray's attentiveness, his willingness to answer their questions, and apparent knowledge, i think you can infer that he came across that way to mj as well. let's say even in the worst case scenario that murray told mj that this plan was outside normal med practice or unethical and they needed to keep it on the down low, mj still might have been willing to take the risk based on murray's appearance of 'trustworthiness'.

if murray talked about the risks, i'm sure he did his best to allay mj's fears since one, that's what mj wanted to hear, and two, murray wanted this job. i don't think mj ever considered that murray might ever walk out of the room while the propofol drip was going. that's the thing that trips me out. why did he do that?

right! And I have to believe that MJ was under the impression that all precautions would be taken.... otherwise he would have hired someone else. I am sure Murray was not the only one he vetted for this job. If Murray was incapable of doing it correctly, he would have kept searching for someone else.

This.

midnightmover said:

said that, I'm pleased to see that some of you are starting to acknowledge the reality that Murray was merely a tool.

He sure is.

[Edited 11/2/11 6:40am]