He really had the wrong people around him and made really bad decisions even after 1993 despite these sketchy people planning to set him up way before they met, and yet being very trusting being a weakness. But that's all over and done with, and irrelevant to this discussion.

babynoz said:

lazycrockett said:

Well as I stated in the first thread I believe that this doping was a nightly thing. That pretty much every night MJ was given Propafol. I think that over time the proper medical procedures became lax and I think both the doctor and patient was okay with that.

N honestly I dont think anyone is questioning that Murray wasn't negligent, that was pretty much a matter of fact when what was going on in the bedroom was discovered.

Did him walking out of the room and making phone calls after the amount of propafol that he injected had passed through MJ's system and thought mj was now sleeping equal manslaughter? A nurse will monitor a patient take the vitals and if the patient seems alright move on to her/his next round.

What I really want to know is why did MJ allow all of the precautions of taking propafol, monitors, nurses, and anesthesiologist be so laxed that it ends up with him, a saline drip, a catheter and a doctor in the other room on the cell phone as he exhales.

Not really. A patient under propofol is monitored a lot differently by a doctor or nurse in an OR setting than someone in a regular room where they are making rounds. Even then an intensive care patient, for example is under constant monitoring by machines and alarms go off that let the staff know when the patient is in distress.

Why did MJ allow it? My best guess is because he trusted the guy. We pretty much know that he had a habit of routinely trusting the wrong people throughout his adult life.

Can't spell and need sleep edit

[Edited 11/1/11 0:05am]

right.

In the case of intensive care... have you ever noticed how the rooms are built? Some rooms do not have a door, only a curtain... other rooms will have a wall/door of transparent glass. That is not by accident. it is by DESIGN. Those patients in ICU are being VISIBLY monitored continuosly. Also, ICU patients on a propofol drip are on mechanical ventilation. There is a maching BLOWING OXYGEN INTO THE PATIENT'S LUNGS.

Murray might as well picked up a gun with 1 bullet and pulled the trigger. He and MJ was playing russian roulette night after night.

And I agree with Crockett.... this "treatment" had gone on for some period... and the monitoring measures had become laxed, and MJ and the doctor was comfortable with the level of monitoring.

That is why there are rules in medicine... and why you should follow them even if it seems like overkill. Also, CHARTING is a rule... just for times like these. Charting not only protects the medical professional in cases like this... it protects the patient.... it doesn't matter with medical professional comes along the scene to perform rescue measures... the case history is written out and available for subsequent rescue measures.

One should not have to rely on the "memory" of one individual. That is not good, standard or legal medical practice.

First of all let me say I love this board and the members who posted on it. I love the way we can disagree and still be respectfull. If I had posted this on a MJ board I would have had my butt handed to me.

One point I tried to make in my earlier post was that Dr. Murray and MJ are kindred spirits. They have a lot in common. Yes, believe it or not! Both men are generous to a fault! They give away so much money and then ended up in financial trouble which leads to them making poor decisions. MJ as we know has been giving away money since the Victory tour. He paid those who work with him way above scale. He lived way above his means..end result..he had to do this tour which in hindsight clearly was a bad idea.

Dr. Murray gave away his time and services to the needy. Do you know how much Cardiac care cost in America? I don't know any Cardiologist who is that generous, do you? Plus his obviious love of women and many children would put a hurting on even a Doctor's income. End result..he had to do this tour too.

There are many fans who say Dr. Murray was a bad doctor. They want to make hiim a one-dimensional Doctor Death. But for twenty days he delivered Michael safely through the Valley of the Shadow of Propofol. The man is human. If MJ stayed up all night, then clearly Dr. Murray was up all night too. When you are tired you make mistakes. Sometimes really Bad mistakes.

Kindred spirits? I thought I'd seen it all I'm laughing in tears right now. It's not about whether what you said is plausible or not. In fact, I want to watch his stupid 2009 statement again and how hard he tried to look sorry....fucking joker.

Oh and some mj fans scare me too, that's why I like it here

[Edited 11/1/11 8:16am]

prodigalfan said:

I hear what you are saying. And I don't give MJ a "pass" for having "sleep overs" with preteen boys. But, all Murray had to do is say "no". I will bet you other doctors said no. Murray should have said "no" as well.

Well he did not say no, and so here we are. Just because he failed to make the right decision FOR HIMSELF, does not give Murray, a physician... a pass.

Just because he allowed greed to overrule his professional judgmenet DOES NOT GIVE HIM A PASS.

MJ had culpability as well. I am sure he did use money to manipulate his way to unconventional treatment. MJ has beared his guilt in this case. He lost his life. I don't think the other party in this reckless partnership should walk away unscathed. It would send the wrong message to medical professionals.

An honest mistake is one thing in malpractice. THIS WAS NOT HONEST. Murray LIED repeatedly in order to get the Propofol in the first place.

Prodigalfan I agree with everyting you said except one. I am not sure it was greed that motivated Dr. Murray. Just as I do not think it was greed that movitvated MJ to do this tour. I think both Dr. Murray and MJ were a bit desperate. My point though is let us give the man a fair shake. Innocent until proven guilty. That was what we wanted for MJ in 1993 and 2005. We should extend that to everyone, not just celebrities we love.

Though he looks totally guilty to me (Murray), I can't completely react either about all this and mostly feel numb, probably cause deep down I want to know the whole story and we have an almost accurate picture of it now. The final verdict is going to give many the closure needed for this case and what happened to MJ. I can't imagine anyone wanting to hurt him, but he acted really weird about everything that you can't blame one for thinking something suspicious was going on.

[Edited 11/1/11 8:23am]

alphastreet said:

Kindred spirits? I thought I'd seen it all I'm laughing in tears right now. It's not about whether what you said is plausible or not. In fact, I want to watch his stupid 2009 statement again and how hard he tried to look sorry....fucking joker.

Oh and some mj fans scare me too, that's why I like it here

[Edited 11/1/11 8:16am]

LOL. Yes, Kindred spirits. There are a lot of similarities between the two men and a lot of parallels in what they face.

alphastreet said:

Though he looks totally guilty to me (Murray), I can't completely react either about all this and mostly feel numb, probably cause deep down I want to know the whole story and we have an almost accurate picture of it now. The final verdict is going to give many the closure needed for this case and what happened to MJ. I can't imagine anyone wanting to hurt him, but he acted really weird about everything that you can't blame one for thinking something suspicious was going on.

[Edited 11/1/11 8:23am]

I understand. The truth is though Murray did not have to do anything nefarious. When I make a screw-up at work I get reprimanded at worst. When a doctor screws up a ptient can die, especially if Anesthesia is involved. I don't think there was any conspiracy. I see no evidence of one.

As for his "I was gone 2 minutes". Well its like Einstein said. Time is relative. He (Einstein) said something to the effect that if you have a Pretty girl on your lap an hour can seem like a few minutes. Well I think Dr. Murray had 3 pretty girls on his cell-phone and did not realize that what he thought was 2 minutes was more like 30 -45 minutes.

OK I am off to work..will post repsonses later.

[Edited 11/1/11 21:34pm]

He completely did not follow the oath, and not calling 911 was inexcusable. Either way, he screwed up big time. But yeah, I have moments where I feel awful about this case, but it's all trapped inside cause it's unreal.

I don't know what I believe and don't believe about any conspiracies though I have heard many things and it's easy to get drawn to that sometimes. I can see why some people believe it cause of all the coincidences out there.

DonRants said:

I understand. The truth is those Murray did not have to do anything nefarious. When I make a screw-up at work I get reprimanded at worst. When a doctor screws up a ptient can die, especially if Anesthesia is involved. I don't think there was any conspiracy. I see no evidence of one.

As for his "I was gone 2 minutes". Well its like Einstein said. Time is relative. He (Einstein) said something to the effect that if you have a Pretty girl on your lap an hour can seem like a few minutes. Well I think Dr. Murray had 3 pretty girls on his cell-phone and did not realize that what he thought was 2 minutes was more like 30 -45 minutes.

OK I am off to work..will post repsonses later.

Now there you go using big words....

<----- off to google to look nefarious.

Question: Has it come out in trial testimony that MJ did in fact recive propofol for an earlier tour by another doctor?

Who was that doctor? Did he testify as well?

I can't (and sadly can) believe that another doctor would do something foolhardy as this.

prodigalfan said:

Question: Has it come out in trial testimony that MJ did in fact recive propofol for an earlier tour by another doctor?

Who was that doctor? Did he testify as well?

I can't (and sadly can) believe that another doctor would do something foolhardy as this.

No, nobody was mentioned and nobody like that has testified.

[Edited 11/1/11 9:03am]

Aww hell, the defense is starting off with Flanagan.

lazycrockett said:

What I really want to know is why did MJ allow all of the precautions of taking propafol, monitors, nurses, and anesthesiologist be so laxed that it ends up with him, a saline drip, a catheter and a doctor in the other room on the cell phone as he exhales.

I'm gonna guess because he wasn't a medical professional. It's not like most of us knew what was required under different types of anesthesia before this trial.

Hey guys, let's open a hospital.

alphastreet said:

Hey guys, let's open a hospital.

LMAO! With a special music therapy wing, please.

midnightmover said:

Timmy84 said:

So it's the celebrity's fault if the doctor abuses his job? Ooooookay....

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 7:02am]

i'm sorry but i agree with this

midnightmover said:

Who said the doctor was an innocent lamb? Did you read my posts or just skim them? Murray is guilty and virtually no-one is arguing about that. However, it's foolish not to realize that Michael engineered this situation. Too many of you guys are ignoring that. That is my point.

lol @ the irony. I don't think that many of us here are absolving MJ of responsibilty in this situation, but he already paid his dues. Plus, they are BOTH responsible for the situation. BOTH of them, not just MJ, not just Conrad. BOTH of them. Though, one of them is, physically, responsible for the other's death.

btw, it would be nice if you took the trouble to understand what people are saying before you hurl abuse at them. MJ fans overreacting and hurling abuse around was what got the last thread deleted so please moderate yourself or else this thread will suffer the same fate.

I'm not hurling abuse at anyone. This is how I normally post. =3

[Edited 11/1/11 10:39am]

Musicslave said:

Don't know if it's been discussed yet but, who thinks Conrad is going to take the stand to defend himself? I think it would be a huge mistake for him, considering how thorough the prosecutor is but that's just me. What say you?

i would like 2 see him testify and defend himself but now it's been said he won't. it's just me but i've always felt that if i'm accused of something that i feel i'm not guilty for, then let me defend myself. too many times in court cases tho, the fear of cross examination takes the defendant out of testifying and relying on evidence and other witnessnes 2 "speak" 4 urself.

L4OATheOriginal said:

Musicslave said:

Don't know if it's been discussed yet but, who thinks Conrad is going to take the stand to defend himself? I think it would be a huge mistake for him, considering how thorough the prosecutor is but that's just me. What say you?

i would like 2 see him testify and defend himself but now it's been said he won't. it's just me but i've always felt that if i'm accused of something that i feel i'm not guilty for, then let me defend myself. too many times in court cases tho, the fear of cross examination takes the defendant out of testifying and relying on evidence and other witnessnes 2 "speak" 4 urself.

I hear ya. I think Conrad would have crumbled under the pressure of cross examination though.

What did I miss during the early morning session? I had to leave my desk only to come back and see that they're in Morning Recess.

No more re-cross of White. Dr. Shafer is back on stand.

dag said:

No more re-cross of White. Dr. Shafer is back on stand.

Thanks

L4OATheOriginal said:

midnightmover said:

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 7:02am]

i'm sorry but i agree with this

Nah I agree that Michael played a part, but you think the doctor wouldn't have attributed it. Whoever's fault it was, it led to someone's death and that's real.

Arbwyth said:

alphastreet said:

Hey guys, let's open a hospital.

LMAO! With a special music therapy wing, please.

I like!

After the final arguements Thursday, I don't think it's going to take the jury long to make their decision. Based off of all the evidence I've seen, dude SHOULD be toast. Unfortunately, he won't actually serve that much time. Not that a longer sentence would make up for Michael's life but you want to see "the time fit the crime." So to speak.

Closing arguments begin Thursday.

I wonder how long the jury will be given to discuss the verdict

alphastreet said:

I wonder how long the jury will be given to discuss the verdict

That's a good question. Although I don't think it will take them long to deliberate a verdict.

Timmy84 said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

i'm sorry but i agree with this

Nah I agree that Michael played a part, but you think the doctor wouldn't have attributed it. Whoever's fault it was, it led to someone's death and that's real.

no question