So I guess the stomach contents didn't reveal what the defense wanted. There has been no more said about that.

Dr. White really got on my nerves today! I must say, he is getting paid very well to make a fool out of himself during the cross exam. Yes, I know the payment is standard, but to have to spew such nonsense all over the courtroom, he knows those answers that he's given are pure poppycock!!!!

As I'm sure you must know by now, the prosecutor did a relentless job on Dr. White. I feel like he's Michael's white knight. (No racial puns intended ) And yea! for Katherine, she rescheduled her trip and she's planning to be there for the verdict.

Time for a Rant

I really miss MJ, but this is no justice. MJ basically seduced this Doctor, with $150,000 a month to become his Deprivan pusher. Everywhere I read it is :"The Doctor Violated the standard of care". Most MJ fans found him guilty before the trial for one main reason..he was in the room when Michael died.

I see two problems with this reasoning: 1) The power relationship was switched. MJ had the power in this relationship not Dr. Murray. Not your typical Doctor/patient relationship at all. 2) When MJ was going through his court case, we fans at the time said don't judge him just because he was "in the bed/room" with the little boy. Many people argued that MJ "violated the standard of care" of children by sleeping in the same room/bed as they did. He was inappropriate and therefore guilty of whatever the kid said. Sadly we are not extending the same largesse to Dr. Murray. After all he never "Thrilled" us.

Yes I know Dr. Murray screwed up. He screwed up. He screwed up by calling or taking calls from his girlfriends, he screwed up by failing to respond appropriately when MJ lay dieing. But his biggest screw up was agreeing to become MJ's personal physician. I bet you he regrets ever meeting MJ. If this had happened with anyone else but a celebrity, he would be facing a Malpractice case. Instead he may go down in history as the man who "killed" MJ.

Oh and one other thing. For fans who keep asking was MJ addicted to Demerol. YES! He was addicted to Demerol, Propofol, Cosmetic Surgery and dancing like a maniac. The man had all the signs of an addictive personality. You cannot be addicted to plastic surgery(which even his mother admits) and not be addicted to pain-killers (which his family denies). If he needs 200 -300 mgs of Demerol for a botox shot, then think how much he must need for a nose job or other more painful surgery. "Is is Scary for you" to imagine?

MJ had a problem since the early '80s when he started massive reconstructive surgery. Then it got worse with the Pepsi burn incident. The public only knew of it as a problem in 1993 That he is using it on and off (they say) in 2009... if that was you or I, we would be called a Junky in a heart-beat.
The experts on trial cannot use that label, because he was not their patient and to label him that way without personally examining him would be irresponsible and may open them up to all sorts of problems and accusations..but if it were you or I.....

So it's the celebrity's fault if the doctor abuses his job? Ooooookay....

Well since you put it that way, yes. Michael had been warned of the dangers of propofol repeatedly and he keep asking until he found someone desperate/wiling/stupid enough to take him up on his offer. But this is not unusual. He had also been warned not to do any more cosmetic surgery from the late '80s and he keep searching until he found someone willing to do it. End result..he became a nasal cripple...

Mind you, this type of single-mindedness works very well for his art. I am sure there were several people who told him ..why spin and go on your toes...why work so hard...but it does not work with your health. I have often said that the true doctor who killed MJ was the one who told him Propofol is safe. The person monitoring him is human. They could fall asleep. They could have pretty girlfirends who are far more interesting than watching his chest go up and down. It is ludicrous to trust someone with your life like that. MJ did it and he paid the price.

If I go parachuting every day and one day the parachute does not open and I die, is the person who folded the parachute a murderer?

Well I can't agree on that. The doctor shouldn't be taken by one's celebrity. You mean to tell me that if you're someone in the medical business taking care of someone who just HAPPENED to be a celebrity that the celebrity had to have power over the doctor to force him to give him whatever he wanted? Nah I don't think that works that way. The dude was no doctor when he did that, he became an enabler.

Well as I stated in the first thread I believe that this doping was a nightly thing. That pretty much every night MJ was given Propafol. I think that over time the proper medical procedures became lax and I think both the doctor and patient was okay with that.

N honestly I dont think anyone is questioning that Murray wasn't negligent, that was pretty much a matter of fact when what was going on in the bedroom was discovered.

Did him walking out of the room and making phone calls after the amount of propafol that he injected had passed through MJ's system and thought mj was now sleeping equal manslaughter? A nurse will monitor a patient take the vitals and if the patient seems alright move on to her/his next round.

What I really want to know is why did MJ allow all of the precautions of taking propafol, monitors, nurses, and anesthesiologist be so laxed that it ends up with him, a saline drip, a catheter and a doctor in the other room on the cell phone as he exhales.

^ N wanting to add I think the thing that will sink Murray is the 2 minute window. I think that if he was upfront bout being on the phone for 1/2 hour this would just be a malpratice suit.

Timmy84 said:

Well I can't agree on that. The doctor shouldn't be taken by one's celebrity. You mean to tell me that if you're someone in the medical business taking care of someone who just HAPPENED to be a celebrity that the celebrity had to have power over the doctor to force him to give him whatever he wanted? Nah I don't think that works that way. The dude was no doctor when he did that, he became an enabler.

Don't bother bro...waste of time.

It's a doctor's job to administer a competent level of care...period, end of story. This guy didn't even produce medical records of his treatment of MJ for chrissakes. He failed to take even basic precautions during the course of the treatment he administered to his patient and when he discovered him to be unresponsive he didn't even follow the correct emergency protocol. No way around it.

lazycrockett said:

Well as I stated in the first thread I believe that this doping was a nightly thing. That pretty much every night MJ was given Propafol. I think that over time the proper medical procedures became lax and I think both the doctor and patient was okay with that.

N honestly I dont think anyone is questioning that Murray wasn't negligent, that was pretty much a matter of fact when what was going on in the bedroom was discovered.

Did him walking out of the room and making phone calls after the amount of propafol that he injected had passed through MJ's system and thought mj was now sleeping equal manslaughter? A nurse will monitor a patient take the vitals and if the patient seems alright move on to her/his next round.

What I really want to know is why did MJ allow all of the precautions of taking propafol, monitors, nurses, and anesthesiologist be so laxed that it ends up with him, a saline drip, a catheter and a doctor in the other room on the cell phone as he exhales.

Not really. A patient under propofol is monitored a lot differently by a doctor or nurse in an OR setting than someone in a regular room where they are making rounds. Even then an intensive care patient, for example is under constant monitoring by machines and alarms go off that let the staff know when the patient is in distress.

Why did MJ allow it? My best guess is because he trusted the guy. We pretty much know that he had a habit of routinely trusting the wrong people throughout his adult life.

Can't spell and need sleep edit

[Edited 11/1/11 0:05am]

Musicslave said:

Due to me being out of the office yesterday, I was able to watch (HLN & In Session) a good portion of Dr. Waldman (the addiction specialist) exchange with both the defense team who hired him and the cross examination. Those commentators were annoying as hell afterwards in trying to stir drama with this addiction crap.

Call me crazy but I don't see the significance of establishing whether or not he was addicted to anything. It doesn't matter. His death came under Conrad's watch. No excuses for negligence and incompetence.

1. He wasn't supposed to receive Propofol in the first place. Regardless of how much Michael might have begged for it, he shouldn't have given it to him. PERIOD. Indefensible. Not to mention him lying about it later to the paramedics. Plus, the cover up after the fact. He knew he fucked up and tried to cover himself.

2. He wasn't supposed to be left alone, even for two minutes.

3. Failure to call 911 immediately is another matter of gross incompetence. The time between the so-called discovery and the actual call being made for 911, is criminal alone. I recently took a CPR course, and that's the first thing we were taught, Assign someone "in particular" to call 911 IMMEDIATELY, even before administering CPR.

To me, if he was an addict as they claim and was trying to ween him off the stuff, why such poor care and attention? You had ONE patient dude. The addiction claim just makes Conrad look worse to me. It highlights his failures as his primary care physician. I don't see anyway around that.

I'm sure the prosecutors will review everything well enough to keep things in perspective for the jury. This case is a no brainer for me. Too bad he won't do much time in the end...

Thank you! Did the good doctor even so much as order any routine bloodwork or other tests periodically during the course of treatment that could have told him in no uncertain terms exactly what his patient's conditon was? My doctor does. Even the testimony from former patients about the quality care they supposedly got from Murray only highlights his poor treatment of MJ by comparison.

I'm totally out of this and I haven't followed up since I'm in the final days of thesis-writing, but one question just popped in my head:

I wonder if - for those in court who claim that Michael self-injected [whatever it is that killed him] - I wonder if the question of where he has learned to give himself injections has popped up in the proceedings so far? Where/whom did he learn it from? When/how recently? I mean, it's not something that just 'the man in the street' can do, just like that, at least not the first time, I suppose someone must at least show you how to do it/where/how to put the needle, etc.

If it turns out that actually no one has showed/taught him, if they can't come up with a name, maybe that would throw some light on [i.e. question] the actual possibility of him self-injecting...

Just a thought...

Timmy84 said:

So it's the celebrity's fault if the doctor abuses his job? Ooooookay....

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 7:02am]

Well if it wasn't for the doctor who gave him Propofol on the HIStory tour night after night, I doubt he would have been stubborn on finding someone to give it to him, cause if it worked before, it worked again. And most people do put trust in medical professionals, so it's understandable why he did it again though Murray had the final say in the end as a professional.

midnightmover said:

Timmy84 said:

So it's the celebrity's fault if the doctor abuses his job? Ooooookay....

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass stuck where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All of the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 4:24am]

It´s obvious from the testimonies that MJ believed it was safe in doctor´s hands.

Interesting how you always find ways to bring MJ down and excuse others, Murray in this case. Poor guy in a weak position. While MJ not being able to sleep and having 16 hours rehearsals is nothing to worry about. Plus Murray´s financial situation "may excuse" or "explain" him giving it, but it does NOT excuse him NOT MONITORING HIM, NOT CALLING 911, NOT DOING ANYTHING, just having fun on the net and on the phone and collecting 100 000 USD for it.

alphastreet said:

Well if it wasn't for the doctor who gave him Propofol on the HIStory tour night after night, I doubt he would have been stubborn on finding someone to give it to him, cause if it worked before, it worked again. And most people do put trust in medical professionals, so it's understandable why he did it again though Murray had the final say in the end as a professional.

Classic example of confused thinking. Most people are going to doctors for legitimate, safe procedures. Michael was going to this doctor for the exact opposite. He was INVITING danger. You can bet Murray had never even thought of doing anything like this until he met Michael and got roped into his murky world of craziness. Even Dr. Shafer said Murray was acting more like an employee than a doctor. This is the aspect of the story you guys are turning a blind eye to.

And just because he got away with it on the History tour, doesn't make it any less crazy. It was crazy to do it back then too. He was just luckier then. But that's the thing about risk-taking. Do it too long and eventually your luck runs out.

midnightmover said:

alphastreet said:

Well if it wasn't for the doctor who gave him Propofol on the HIStory tour night after night, I doubt he would have been stubborn on finding someone to give it to him, cause if it worked before, it worked again. And most people do put trust in medical professionals, so it's understandable why he did it again though Murray had the final say in the end as a professional.

Classic example of confused thinking. Most people are going to doctors for legitimate, safe procedures. Michael was going to this doctor for the exact opposite. He was INVITING danger. You can bet Murray had never even thought of doing anything like this until he met Michael and got roped into his murky world of craziness. Even Dr. Shafer said Murray was acting more like an employee than a doctor. This is the aspect of the story you guys are turning a blind eye to.

And just because he got away with it on the History tour, doesn't make it any less crazy. It was crazy to do it back then too. He was just luckier then. But that's the thing about risk-taking. Do it too long and eventually your luck runs out.

Right, we are turnign blind eye to Michael and what are YOU doing. Poor Murray was vulnerable and then got ROPED into MJ´s world of craziness. Poor him. And where is HIS MIND and LOGIC? You are accusing fans of turning blind eyes while you are guilty of the same thing.

dag said:

midnightmover said:

You're missing his point. Murray did wrong and needs to be punished, but unless you've got your ass stuck where your eyes should be, you must realize that Michael went out of his way to find someone to do this risky procedure. Michael knew that any doctor who did it would be risking their licence and their reputation, as well as gambling with a human life.

Eventually, he found Conrad Murray. Murray was in a weak position. Financially, he was on the brink. Along comes Michael with massive financial resources at his disposal. Who do you think has got the power there? Clearly it's Michael, not Murray.

All of the craziness of the situation; all this far-out equipment in his bedroom; all the secrecy; all of this was engineered by Michael. Murray was simply executing Michael's plan. Once you acknowledge that then you have to face the stark truth that Michael shares some of the blame for his own death. You MJ fans seem to want it to be 100% Murray's fault, but it's not. It's both Murray's and Michael's fault.

[Edited 11/1/11 4:24am]

It´s obvious from the testimonies that MJ believed it was safe in doctor´s hands.

Interesting how you always find ways to bring MJ down and excuse others, Murray in this case. Poor guy in a weak position. While MJ not being able to sleep and having 16 hours rehearsals is nothing to worry about. Plus Murray´s financial situation "may excuse" or "explain" him giving it, but it does NOT excuse him NOT MONITORING HIM, NOT CALLING 911, NOT DOING ANYTHING, just having fun on the net and on the phone and collecting 100 000 USD for it.

Unlike you guys I don't believe in cartoon heroes and villains. As I've said repeatedly, both Murray and Michael are jointly responsible. Michael has paid the ultimate price. Now Murray needs to pay the price too.

I have criticized Michael too when I needed to, don't get me wrong. It looked to me like he was taking care of his health in other ways, like with nutrition and such, and hiring a tour doctor, but one who got greedy. And the HIStory doctor had equipment, why didn't Murray? Even if this drug is illegal outside a hospital setting, he was safe before and thought he would be now too since he was paying for personal medical services. Why didn't Murray go over written consent and risks with him? There are many questions like that to take into consideration that they went over during the trial. And Murray's actions were very weird after finding him unconscious, even if he "got scared", how did it lead to not knowing CPR or knowing how to call 911? Bubbles would have done a better job saving him, Murray should have called him ....

[Edited 11/1/11 5:45am]

alphastreet said:

I have criticized Michael too when I needed to, don't get me wrong. It looked to me like he was taking care of his health in other ways, like with nutrition and such, and hiring a tour doctor, but one who got greedy. And the HIStory doctor had equipment, why didn't Murray? Even if this drug is illegal outside a hospital setting, he was safe before and thought he would be now too since he was paying for personal medical services. Why didn't Murray go over written consent and risks with him? There are many questions like that to take into consideration that they went over during the trial. And Murray's actions were very weird after finding him unconscious, even if he "got scared", how did it lead to not knowing CPR or knowing how to call 911? Bubbles would have done a better job saving him, Murray should have called him ....

[Edited 11/1/11 5:45am]

Let me see if I understand you right. You're agreeing that Michael paid Murray to break the law. Then you're asking why Murray didn't keep written records of the law-breaking??? Hello??!!

[Edited 11/1/11 6:00am]

I think he was under the impression that it was fine wherever it was given, I don't know if anyone told him it was not fine outside a hospital or against the law. I know they told him proper equipment is needed or it could be dangerous though, that's on file. And he had used it before, so maybe, just maybe he didn't know.

[Edited 11/1/11 6:35am]

alphastreet said:

I think he was under the impression that it was fine wherever it was given, I don't know if anyone told him it was not fine outside a hospital or against the law. I know they told him proper equipment is needed or it could be dangerous though, that's on file. And he had used it before, so maybe, just maybe he didn't know.

[Edited 11/1/11 6:35am]

Wow! Even after all that's come out, you're still burying your head in the sand and pretending he might not have known it was dangerous to use it outside of a hospital? My god, you guys are unbelievable. Even after all this time I never lose the ability to be shocked by your willful blindness.

Don't know if it's been discussed yet but, who thinks Conrad is going to take the stand to defend himself? I think it would be a huge mistake for him, considering how thorough the prosecutor is but that's just me. What say you?

I love you more midnightmover

Musicslave: I hope he takes the sand, I need a good laugh today watching that goofball up there.

alphastreet said:

I love you more midnightmover

Musicslave: I hope he takes the sand, I need a good laugh today watching that goofball up there.

I thought I had a good laugh yesterday with Dr. White but Conrad would take the cake. If his defense team allows him to take the stand it would be out of desperation. They'll probably have him cry and show how bad he feels about Mike dying under his care, etc. etc. Walgren would rip him to shreads! I'd be surprised if Conrad testifies.

Despite not liking anything about what has happened, every time that motherfucker opens his mouth, I can't help but start laughing though I don't mean it. I guess I'm in denial about what he did.

midnightmover said:

Classic example of confused thinking. Most people are going to doctors for legitimate, safe procedures. Michael was going to this doctor for the exact opposite. He was INVITING danger. You can bet Murray had never even thought of doing anything like this until he met Michael and got roped into his murky world of craziness. Even Dr. Shafer said Murray was acting more like an employee than a doctor. This is the aspect of the story you guys are turning a blind eye to.

And just because he got away with it on the History tour, doesn't make it any less crazy. It was crazy to do it back then too. He was just luckier then. But that's the thing about risk-taking. Do it too long and eventually your luck runs out.

Why do you even bother to come in to shit up this thread troll?

Yes MJ paid for his decision, he is DEAD. The doctor isn't some innocent lamb either. His alleged negligience could have caused the death of his patient. Plain and fucking simple. There's nothing innocent about that shit.

Unholyalliance said:

midnightmover said:

Classic example of confused thinking. Most people are going to doctors for legitimate, safe procedures. Michael was going to this doctor for the exact opposite. He was INVITING danger. You can bet Murray had never even thought of doing anything like this until he met Michael and got roped into his murky world of craziness. Even Dr. Shafer said Murray was acting more like an employee than a doctor. This is the aspect of the story you guys are turning a blind eye to.

And just because he got away with it on the History tour, doesn't make it any less crazy. It was crazy to do it back then too. He was just luckier then. But that's the thing about risk-taking. Do it too long and eventually your luck runs out.

Why do you even bother to come in to shit up this thread troll?

Yes MJ paid for his decision, he is DEAD. The doctor isn't some innocent lamb either. His alleged negligience could have caused the death of his patient. Plain and fucking simple. There's nothing innocent about that shit.

Who said the doctor was an innocent lamb? Did you read my posts or just skim them? Murray is guilty and virtually no-one is arguing about that. However, it's foolish not to realize that Michael engineered this situation. Too many of you guys are ignoring that. That is my point.

btw, it would be nice if you took the trouble to understand what people are saying before you hurl abuse at them. MJ fans overreacting and hurling abuse around was what got the last thread deleted so please moderate yourself or else this thread will suffer the same fate.

The man wanted to sleep. That is all. I guess we are all responsible too if we seek treatment that fucks us over big time.

DonRants said:

Time for a Rant

I really miss MJ, but this is no justice. MJ basically seduced this Doctor, with $150,000 a month to become his Deprivan pusher. Everywhere I read it is :"The Doctor Violated the standard of care". Most MJ fans found him guilty before the trial for one main reason..he was in the room when Michael died.

I see two problems with this reasoning: 1) The power relationship was switched. MJ had the power in this relationship not Dr. Murray. Not your typical Doctor/patient relationship at all. 2) When MJ was going through his court case, we fans at the time said don't judge him just because he was "in the bed/room" with the little boy. Many people argued that MJ "violated the standard of care" of children by sleeping in the same room/bed as they did. He was inappropriate and therefore guilty of whatever the kid said. Sadly we are not extending the same largesse to Dr. Murray. After all he never "Thrilled" us.

Yes I know Dr. Murray screwed up. He screwed up. He screwed up by calling or taking calls from his girlfriends, he screwed up by failing to respond appropriately when MJ lay dieing. But his biggest screw up was agreeing to become MJ's personal physician. I bet you he regrets ever meeting MJ. If this had happened with anyone else but a celebrity, he would be facing a Malpractice case. Instead he may go down in history as the man who "killed" MJ.

Oh and one other thing. For fans who keep asking was MJ addicted to Demerol. YES! He was addicted to Demerol, Propofol, Cosmetic Surgery and dancing like a maniac. The man had all the signs of an addictive personality. You cannot be addicted to plastic surgery(which even his mother admits) and not be addicted to pain-killers (which his family denies). If he needs 200 -300 mgs of Demerol for a botox shot, then think how much he must need for a nose job or other more painful surgery. "Is is Scary for you" to imagine?

MJ had a problem since the early '80s when he started massive reconstructive surgery. Then it got worse with the Pepsi burn incident. The public only knew of it as a problem in 1993 That he is using it on and off (they say) in 2009... if that was you or I, we would be called a Junky in a heart-beat.
The experts on trial cannot use that label, because he was not their patient and to label him that way without personally examining him would be irresponsible and may open them up to all sorts of problems and accusations..but if it were you or I.....

I hear what you are saying. And I don't give MJ a "pass" for having "sleep overs" with preteen boys. But, all Murray had to do is say "no". I will bet you other doctors said no. Murray should have said "no" as well.

Well he did not say no, and so here we are. Just because he failed to make the right decision FOR HIMSELF, does not give Murray, a physician... a pass.

Just because he allowed greed to overrule his professional judgmenet DOES NOT GIVE HIM A PASS.

MJ had culpability as well. I am sure he did use money to manipulate his way to unconventional treatment. MJ has beared his guilt in this case. He lost his life. I don't think the other party in this reckless partnership should walk away unscathed. It would send the wrong message to medical professionals.

An honest mistake is one thing in malpractice. THIS WAS NOT HONEST. Murray LIED repeatedly in order to get the Propofol in the first place.