lazycrockett said:

^Cause all the defense has to do is provide reasonable doubt, they can/are throwing everything at the wall hoping that if enough sticks the jury will question what actually happened when MJ was alone in his bedroom. There doesnt need to be a clear point A to Point B logic.

[Edited 10/28/11 9:01am]

So far none of it sticks for me.

Totally nothing makes sense. Everything that the prosecution presented fit and no witness has been discredited by the cross examination. Quite the contrary, they futher helped the prosecution.

The defence on the other has not made any sense at all. And all their witnesses have been eventually used to help the prosecution. The only witness left to be cross examined by Walgren and possible discredited is dr. White. I am not a medical doctor and i still do have few questions for him. I am sure after consultation with Shafer, there'll be tons of questions and even if not, Walgren can easily discredit him by the typical prosecution questions such as "is it appropriate to give it at home with no monitoring" etc. Plus their claim that MJ administered himself leads to a logical question "and where was Murray when Mj was self-administering since he left him only for two minutes?" And to administer propofol during those two minutes - Shafer showed us how hard it is. I can't imagine that he'd be aquitted.

NaughtyKitty said:

October 28, 2011 Judge: Trial is taking too long Posted: 02:47 PM ET

Judge Michael Pastor expressed concern that the court may start losing jurors now that the trial of Dr. Conrad Murray is starting to push into late next week.

During a chambers meeting with lawyers on Thursday, prosecutor David Walgren asked the judge for more time to consider new evidence submitted by the defense. The new evidence includes new simulations from defense expert Dr. Paul White's showing the possible effects of the drugs in Jackson's system the day he died.

Walgren called the graphs of the new simulations, "hieroglyphics."

Judge Pastor acknowledged Walgren's concerns, but said he's worried about changing the schedule because the jurors have lives and commitments outside of the trial.

Walgren said that losing jurors to scheduling conflicts is a risk the state is prepared to take.

Judge Pastor granted the state to begin their cross examination of Dr. White on Monday, giving them the weekend to examine the new defense evidence.

Once Dr. White's testimony is concluded, we expect that the defense will rest. After the defense rests, the prosecution will likely present some sort of rebuttal case.

If things go more quickly than anticipated, closings in the trial could still be Monday. That scenario, however, now seems remote.

If testimony continues into or concludes on Monday – which is certainly possible – then closings in the case could be Tuesday.

But it's also possible that Tuesday could be a dark day, to give the attorneys time to prepare their closing arguments. If that happens, then closings would be delivered on Wednesday.

The trial is taking too long?!! If the judge hadn't called for so many long breaks and days off they probably could have gotten to final arguments this week.

^^These delays have nothing to do with the judge... it was scheduling issues by several witnesses including the death of Shafer's father.

dag said:

PatrickS77 said:

He also said, even though he didn't want to admit it, that based on those records he can't say that MJ was an addict.

Exactly. I love how people come here only to pick on the negative said about MJ even though the very same witnesses eventually admitted something else.

I'm not picking on the negative. I'm a life long fan of MJs and I'm truly heart broken about what has happened to him. I wish that Murray would be put away for decades. However, based upon the facts, including the addiction experts testimony, MJ was at a minimum dependent on the demerol.

No way do I believe that MJ was receiving all of that demerol for botox injections. Seems to me he was addicted to something. Jeezus, how long was he going to this Klein character?

I mean that may explain why he was showing up blowed at some of the rehearsals. In Jermaine's book he discusses where MJ was being disrespected when he'd go to rehearsal. Jermaine wrote that they'd talk to MJ the wrong way, to the point where MJ would say "Can people just be nice to me today?" And the response would be "Can someone be coherent today?!" I found this passage strange because there was no explanation being given as to why MJ would be incoherent in Jermaine's writings. Perhaps Jermaine didn't know, or wasn't being told, but it's been revealed now that MJ was showing up at the those rehearsals, um,not himself. Could have been the work of Klein in addition to the nightly doses of Propofol.

Yeah, I'm sort of glad that Klein isn't the fall guy in this trial, but it does sound like he's another "pusha" as someone stated. Of course, MJ would have to take responsibility for that, too. But MJ didnt die by the hand of Klein and that's what it's all about right now. I hope those jurors keep that in mind. Murray's on trial (chant).

kellistarr120 said:

No way do I believe that MJ was receiving all of that demerol for botox injections. Seems to me he was addicted to something. Jeezus, how long was he going to this Klein character?

I mean that may explain why he was showing up blowed at some of the rehearsals. In Jermaine's book he discusses where MJ was being disrespected when he'd go to rehearsal. Jermaine wrote that they'd talk to MJ the wrong way, to the point where MJ would say "Can people just be nice to me today?" And the response would be "Can someone be coherent today?!" I found this passage strange because there was no explanation being given as to why MJ would be incoherent in Jermaine's writings. Perhaps Jermaine didn't know, or wasn't being told, but it's been revealed now that MJ was showing up at the those rehearsals, um,not himself. Could have been the work of Klein in addition to the nightly doses of Propofol.

Yeah, I'm sort of glad that Klein isn't the fall guy in this trial, but it does sound like he's another "pusha" as someone stated. Of course, MJ would have to take responsibility for that, too. But MJ didnt die by the hand of Klein and that's what it's all about right now. I hope those jurors keep that in mind. Murray's on trial (chant).

i think if klein was prescribing drugs to an addict, the dea wouldn't have cleared him. moreover, it was established yesterday in cross exam that mj wasn't visiting klein as often as people seem to think.

i would take what jermaine has to say w/ a grain of salt. jermaine wasn't at rehearsals, was he? remember that the family has a lawsuit in the wings w/aeg. since when do people treat the star of the show with such contempt - at least to their face?

tmo1965 said:

alphastreet said:

It's upsetting seeing MSN headlines like "MJ most likely addicted:says expert", I HATE how misleading it is, knowing already what was spoken about.

I used to go WTF over Janet's media statements and what Randy and Rebbie possibly think. They either mean once addicted, always an addict cause of the painkillers in 1993, or one or more of them do not agree with taking anti depressants or whatever it was to run away from pain. Remember, Janet had depression but I don't think she took anything based on public knowledge, according to an article back then, but MJ endured much worse and it's understandable if he had it and developed anxiety and needed Ativan. Those are not for anyone, even his family to say he didn't need them. This is not the first time family does not understand mental health, and that is all it is.

I think that MJ did have a drug problem at points in his life. How extensive it was cannot be determined by people who were not around him. MJ admitted to the drug problem in 1993. In 1995 or 1996, he collapsed while preparing for a show in New York. David Gest has been reported as saying that MJ was late for the Jacksons 30 Year Reunion show in 2001, reportedly due to demerol use (http://www.dailymail.co.u...women.html) - See the "On stage and off his head" section. Jackson family members have stated that there were interventions done, but he was in denial.

I totally understand him needing anti-depressants, but there is a difference between having a medical need and abuse.

it was 1995 and the doctor who treated him gave a lengthy interview in 2009 that has been posted on this board more than once in which he categorically DENIES that mj was on drugs at the time of his collapse. it was his old nemesis - dehydration.

no, mj wasn't himself in 2001. he may have been on painkillers; dr. metzger testified that he knew of a pain specialist that mj saw. whatever the deal was, i wouldn't trust a word that comes out of gest's mouth. he's a lowlife. look at how he treated liza minelli.

kibbles said:

kellistarr120 said:

No way do I believe that MJ was receiving all of that demerol for botox injections. Seems to me he was addicted to something. Jeezus, how long was he going to this Klein character?

I mean that may explain why he was showing up blowed at some of the rehearsals. In Jermaine's book he discusses where MJ was being disrespected when he'd go to rehearsal. Jermaine wrote that they'd talk to MJ the wrong way, to the point where MJ would say "Can people just be nice to me today?" And the response would be "Can someone be coherent today?!" I found this passage strange because there was no explanation being given as to why MJ would be incoherent in Jermaine's writings. Perhaps Jermaine didn't know, or wasn't being told, but it's been revealed now that MJ was showing up at the those rehearsals, um,not himself. Could have been the work of Klein in addition to the nightly doses of Propofol.

Yeah, I'm sort of glad that Klein isn't the fall guy in this trial, but it does sound like he's another "pusha" as someone stated. Of course, MJ would have to take responsibility for that, too. But MJ didnt die by the hand of Klein and that's what it's all about right now. I hope those jurors keep that in mind. Murray's on trial (chant).

i think if klein was prescribing drugs to an addict, the dea wouldn't have cleared him. moreover, it was established yesterday in cross exam that mj wasn't visiting klein as often as people seem to think.

i would take what jermaine has to say w/ a grain of salt. jermaine wasn't at rehearsals, was he? remember that the family has a lawsuit in the wings w/aeg. since when do people treat the star of the show with such contempt - at least to their face?

Since Jermaine isn't an advocate of his brother being an addict, I believe he was posing the very same question in his book. Why would MJ be treated with such contempt to his face? Obviously, his family (Jermaine included) felt that he may have been treated all kinds of wrong ways, hence the lawsuit.

I don't know if Klein was prescribing drugs to an "addict", technically, MJ hadn't been established as an addict based on Klein's records, with dates relevant to this trial, but it's clear that he was giving Michael demerol. It is just my opinion that Klein is shady and that MJ wanted it and that Botox is just a cover up. I'm not surprised that Klein was cleared. Demerol wasn't in MJ's system

at the time of death and Klein wasn't in the room with MJ and Murray.

kellistarr120 said:

No way do I believe that MJ was receiving all of that demerol for botox injections. Seems to me he was addicted to something. Jeezus, how long was he going to this Klein character?

Well, he did "marry" the doctors nurse, looks like he was seeing the doc for a while.

The trial is a bunch of BS

Wonder where Tohme Tohme, Klein, and all the other people went.

From what I saw today and from what most of the media lawyers are saying, Dr. White did a very good job on the stand today. Prosecution asked to end the session early so they would have all weekend to prepare for the cross examination.

Looks like Monday is gonna be the make or break day for Dr. Murray.

I was home today and so I watched everything. GAME-ChANGER. I would not want to be a member of that jury right now. I will have to see how Dr. White holds up in cross-examination, but if he holds up there is definately resonable doubt. He was that good. He was rational and he gave clear illustrations of everything. And I am a MJ fan.

suga10 said:

The trial is a bunch of BS

Wonder where Tohme Tohme, Klein, and all the other people went.

I heard that Karen Faye was supposed to be a defense witness, but somehow they werent able to serve her with a subpoena:

mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney

The announcement about Faye's unavailability came during a morning session outside presence of the jury, so I didn't hear about it 'til late

25 Oct

Maybe they should've tweeted her a subpoena since she lives on Twitter And she's still tweeting btw:

wingheart Karen Faye

Does anyone see the hypocrisy in this oath one must swear to before you take the stand, as I do? "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

14 hours ago

wingheart Karen Faye

How can a witness tell the "whole" truth, when both sides censor the whole truth and only want the truth that will win their case?

13 hours ago

wingheart Karen Faye

Then ask you to swear to God, you speak the whole truth...

13 hours ago

Many people think MJ went onto Larry King disguised as Dave Dave.

Remember theh bodyguard said that MJ like to use the burn victim disguise at times.

His voice sounds like MJ

[Edited 10/28/11 22:02pm]

^Okay lets keep this thread focused on the trial, not some conspiracy theory.

thanks.

lazycrockett said:

^Okay lets keep this thread focused on the trial, not some conspiracy theory.

thanks.

I just posted it, and wanted to hear what people thought- about the voices.

But yes carry on with the discussion.

[Edited 10/28/11 22:21pm]

We should worry about our own voices

And I'm glad someone referenced that 1995 collapse article from 2009 that I was just about to bring up, thank you.

Botox doesn't sound far fetched, that could either be for facials before the tour, or it could have been botox for treating pain, it's used for those reasons too , but people forget. I'm pretty sure I heard about treating acne scarring , either just before the death or after it. I'm sure it was routine. I do remember his eyes looking red and puffy after a visit one time, and another time, there was that story about him sleeping there overnight. I wonder what that was all about.

Intervention is a very open ended term. It could have been about anything. To not drink stress away during the trial or during pain flare ups (this is not uncommon with those who suffer for years after injuries), or it could have been over being told not to overspend during stress, which is possible too, since he was traveling a lot, or as I said before something simple like eating properly or trying something other than anti-anxiety meds. Janet and Rebbie did NOT give dates or give us the nature of these interventions. They just mentioned drugs, and that includes drink too, people always seperate the two. Very vague.

[Edited 10/28/11 23:54pm]

Well I know little bout botox, but I want to know why MJ was getting shots in his armpits and his groin area?

lazycrockett said:

Well I know little bout botox, but I want to know why MJ was getting shots in his armpits and his groin area?

REALLY? I was thinking it must be for pain, but I just looked it up and people who get it in those areas get it for excessive sweating, which can be a medical problem . Also, the use of botox for treating chronic neck and back pain is becoming something common, but it's also criticized in the medical community.

[Edited 10/29/11 0:05am]

I'm still of the opinion, as I was at the beginning, that this trial should have been closed to the public with a gag order on all involved. Unfortunately, I think that it was expected that this would be a sensational media circus like the OJ trial was. It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

purplethunder3121 said:

I'm still of the opinion, as I was at the beginning, that this trial should have been closed to the public with a gag order on all involved. Unfortunately, I think that it was expected that this would be a sensational media circus like the OJ trial was. It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

It's Michael Jackson, how could they not turn it into a media circus? Real sick.

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

I'm still of the opinion, as I was at the beginning, that this trial should have been closed to the public with a gag order on all involved. Unfortunately, I think that it was expected that this would be a sensational media circus like the OJ trial was. It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

It's Michael Jackson, how could they not turn it into a media circus? Real sick.

Totally. I'm fed up with the whole thing. I prefer to remember Michael as he was in all the years I grew up with him and as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. Plus, I don't think we will ever really know what happened in that bedroom that night. If there ever was any tapes, they were erased. I just hope Murray gets some kind of punishment for what was pure medical negligience, if nothing else.

purplethunder3121 said:

Timmy84 said:

It's Michael Jackson, how could they not turn it into a media circus? Real sick.

Totally. I'm fed up with the whole thing. I prefer to remember Michael as he was in all the years I grew up with him and as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. Plus, I don't think we will ever really know what happened in that bedroom that night. If there ever was any tapes, they were erased. I just hope Murray gets some kind of punishment for what was pure medical negligience, if nothing else.

Here here... just get this shit over with already. Trial could end next week for all we know anyway.

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Totally. I'm fed up with the whole thing. I prefer to remember Michael as he was in all the years I grew up with him and as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. Plus, I don't think we will ever really know what happened in that bedroom that night. If there ever was any tapes, they were erased. I just hope Murray gets some kind of punishment for what was pure medical negligience, if nothing else.

Here here... just get this shit over with already. Trial could end next week for all we know anyway.

Certainly seems like the judge is advocating that. With all the long ass breaks, aborted trial days, and days when there is no trial at all.

purplethunder3121 said:

Timmy84 said:

Here here... just get this shit over with already. Trial could end next week for all we know anyway.

Certainly seems like the judge is advocating that. With all the long ass breaks, aborted trial days, and days when there is no trial at all.

I think had it not been for the breaks - and sorry about Shafer's dad, RIP - the trial would probably have been over TODAY.

Timmy84 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Certainly seems like the judge is advocating that. With all the long ass breaks, aborted trial days, and days when there is no trial at all.

I think had it not been for the breaks - and sorry about Shafer's dad, RIP - the trial would probably have been over TODAY.

Quite frankly, I wish it had. None of this is going to bring Michael back.

purplethunder3121 said:

Timmy84 said:

I think had it not been for the breaks - and sorry about Shafer's dad, RIP - the trial would probably have been over TODAY.

Quite frankly, I wish it had. None of this is going to bring Michael back.

Yeah all that's is warranted is justice for him to make sure this man pays in some way for being so neglectful. I don't wish him ill will @ Murray, just want him to pay for his crime.

I am not sure White is going to hold up well in the cross examination. His true character seemed to show to me when he felt the need to mention that dr. Shafer misspelled "plazma". It was made clear that it wasn´t written by him, but he still felt the need to degrade him cause nobody asked him about it. Their joking seems forced and unnatural to me. He doesn't seem genuine to me. They are not prepared. Many times they refer to something they are not able to show to the court saying they don't have it here. He kept on "estimating" and the graphs were made by someone else. Plus I wonder how they are going to justify where was Murray when MJ allegedly took those Lorazapams and whatever. As for injecting propofol, there were no MJ's fingerprints so how could he do that? They said that there wasn't the correct equipment found at the scene - well two witnesses have testified that Murray was cleaning up - the bodyguard and the paramedic. According to his words, he found Mike at 12, but called for help ten minutes later - enough time to clean up. I think cross examining him won't be a problem.

As for MJ's demerol addiction, I am not so quick to call him an addict. If he was getting it regularly during dermatological procedures, obviously, his body got used to it, so he had to be give higher doses and if it made him dizzy, than I can believe that some people have experienced him this way.

Plus how can anyone take that "addict expert" seriously after what he showed there. I mean bringing up his weird behavious from the 80 and 90's, eventually admitting (it took Walgren asking him several times to get the answer) that based on that he was not an addict. Their daring to present false charts blaming it on secretary and defence etc. How the hell can anyone take that serously?

^ From what I read on here, none of the defense witnesses' accounts have held up at all.