Gaga is a poser.

I've noticed a heavy "Mechanical Animals" / "Holy Wood / Golden Age Of Grotesque" era vibe in some of the more recent videos, photoshoots and performances by Gaga. It's not just the outfits or the make up, but also the colours, the settings and also the poses Gaga herself makes. They just seem heavily influenced by MM's visual style and if he is pissed off due to it I don't blame him. Manson might have borrowed a lot himself, but like he has stated he's always been open about the references he has made to other artists' work.

It's not that easy to say what it is exactly that Gaga has taken from MM, but I just get a very striking sense of familiarity when seeing some of her recent videos, photoshoots and performances.

Riverman37 said:

Well, IMO they ARE similar in a way that they are perceived by many people as authentic, groundbreaking artists, which they simply ain't.

Marilyn Manson took the industrial rock of the likes of Ministry and Nine Inch Nails and made a charicature out of it.

Lady Gaga's dresses, outfits and make-up cannot hide the fact her music is nothing more then 'Britney Spears with a wig'.

The first Marilyn Manson records were made under the supervision of Trent Reznor and he produced them, so Manson was hardly ripping him off. Reznor is probably more responsible for the overall style of the music on those records than Manson himself. After those first records Manson hasn't really made too many industrial rock tracks in any case.

I wish those records sounded more like Ministry.

Gunsnhalen said:

TonyVanDam said:

Both artists have mocked Yahushua ("Jesus").

Well it's Marilyn Manson what do you expect?

I mean he has mocked just about every kind of religion this is nothing new. As much as you know about the illuminati i'm suprised your not a member

[Edited 10/12/11 21:21pm]

I don't need the money that badly.

They both like to 'tuck'

novabrkr said:

I've noticed a heavy "Mechanical Animals" / "Holy Wood / Golden Age Of Grotesque" era vibe in some of the more recent videos, photoshoots and performances by Gaga. It's not just the outfits or the make up, but also the colours, the settings and also the poses Gaga herself makes. They just seem heavily influenced by MM's visual style and if he is pissed off due to it I don't blame him. Manson might have borrowed a lot himself, but like he has stated he's always been open about the references he has made to other artists' work.

It's not that easy to say what it is exactly that Gaga has taken from MM, but I just get a very striking sense of familiarity when seeing some of her recent videos, photoshoots and performances.

Absolutely! If people look through those videos, the make-up style with Manson was always one layer too many just to take it there; Gaga does a simular make-up but stops well before the gore.

I don't think any idea is original but they exist in the universe to pluck. Sort of like when the telephone was invented, someone else also had invented it but just didn't get there invention out fast enough, I think that is how it goes.

Maybe Gagas not copying purposely but she may also be watching old movies like he is and taking from the same sorce, but I am suspicious she isn't just picking off pieces of his art ideas and inserting them into her work. But still, there are times like you say, where there is deffinately a feeling that she is doing what Madonna did. Madonna would take an idea that was out there in the more underground artistic community, polish it so it wasn't quite so edgy and controversial, and then serve it up to the main masses.

spacedolphin said:

They both like to 'tuck'

TonyVanDam said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Well it's Marilyn Manson what do you expect?

I mean he has mocked just about every kind of religion this is nothing new. As much as you know about the illuminati i'm suprised your not a member

[Edited 10/12/11 21:21pm]

I don't need the money that badly.

lol i'm just messing with ya tons

I think on the surface they might have similarities but as far as the people they are underneath the facades I think Mansons more naturally inclinded towards a semi-fascist perspective of life and Gaga I think genuinely cares about other people, and an equality of differences.

Manson, from stupid shit he's said in interviews seems to genuinely believe that some people are just made to leaders and others idolators, i.e. some people are supposed to rule the world and the rest live in their shadows. Gaga seems more naturally altruistic.

lezama said:

I think on the surface they might have similarities but as far as the people they are underneath the facades I think Mansons more naturally inclinded towards a semi-fascist perspective of life and Gaga I think genuinely cares about other people, and an equality of differences.

Manson, from stupid shit he's said in interviews seems to genuinely believe that some people are just made to leaders and others idolators, i.e. some people are supposed to rule the world and the rest live in their shadows. Gaga seems more naturally altruistic.

I disagree with you.

I see Gaga saying "we are all equally beautiful" .

I hear Manson saying "we are all equally ugly".

It is just the flip side of the same thing.

As for fascism I think he believes the opposite. I think that he believes that people should learn to rule their own life. Of course some will accept the challenge of taking an active part in their own destiny and pursuing knowledge at every opportunity and some will not. Thus we have leaders and followers.

But.... I see him saying it is an active choice to become a leader and not something that we just fall into.

Deadflow3r said:

lezama said:

I think on the surface they might have similarities but as far as the people they are underneath the facades I think Mansons more naturally inclinded towards a semi-fascist perspective of life and Gaga I think genuinely cares about other people, and an equality of differences.

Manson, from stupid shit he's said in interviews seems to genuinely believe that some people are just made to leaders and others idolators, i.e. some people are supposed to rule the world and the rest live in their shadows. Gaga seems more naturally altruistic.

I disagree with you.

I see Gaga saying "we are all equally beautiful" .

I hear Manson saying "we are all equally ugly".

It is just the flip side of the same thing.

As for fascism I think he believes the opposite. I think that he believes that people should learn to rule their own life. Of course some will accept the challenge of taking an active part in their own destiny and pursuing knowledge at every opportunity and some will not. Thus we have leaders and followers.

But.... I see him saying it is an active choice to become a leader and not something that we just fall into.

Yeah people truly didn't get the full scale of what Manson was going on about. Their messages weren't that different. Gaga's just more bright, Manson's more dark. That's about it.

Both over the top garbage.

Deadflow3r said:

lezama said:

I think on the surface they might have similarities but as far as the people they are underneath the facades I think Mansons more naturally inclinded towards a semi-fascist perspective of life and Gaga I think genuinely cares about other people, and an equality of differences.

Manson, from stupid shit he's said in interviews seems to genuinely believe that some people are just made to leaders and others idolators, i.e. some people are supposed to rule the world and the rest live in their shadows. Gaga seems more naturally altruistic.

I disagree with you.

I see Gaga saying "we are all equally beautiful" .

I hear Manson saying "we are all equally ugly".

It is just the flip side of the same thing.

As for fascism I think he believes the opposite. I think that he believes that people should learn to rule their own life. Of course some will accept the challenge of taking an active part in their own destiny and pursuing knowledge at every opportunity and some will not. Thus we have leaders and followers.

But.... I see him saying it is an active choice to become a leader and not something that we just fall into.

I'm more making direct inferences from his quoted statements...

Why do you like Anton LaVey?

RE: Anton Lavey... what does he mean when he says he's the "one I can relate to the most"?

Lavey himself is quoted someplace as saying his "Satanism" is a kind of "progressive fascism" or "Ayn Rand's (individualist objectivism) philosophy with ceremony & ritual"..

The crucial connection to fascism of course if Lavey's belief that the individual persuit of his or her self-expression should be sought regardless of the "herd". Putting oneself as more important than others is a necessary condition of fascist thought.

Its sounds really nice on the surface, but at base its a philosophy of selfishness.

The only connection there is with Gaga is the Satanists thinking on the encouragement of diversity, finding ones own sexuality etc...

Well... this is just my take on his statements. Feel free to disagree.

lezama said:

Deadflow3r said:

I disagree with you.

I see Gaga saying "we are all equally beautiful" .

I hear Manson saying "we are all equally ugly".

It is just the flip side of the same thing.

As for fascism I think he believes the opposite. I think that he believes that people should learn to rule their own life. Of course some will accept the challenge of taking an active part in their own destiny and pursuing knowledge at every opportunity and some will not. Thus we have leaders and followers.

But.... I see him saying it is an active choice to become a leader and not something that we just fall into.

I'm more making direct inferences from his quoted statements...

Why do you like Anton LaVey?

I think he's probably the most powerful writer that you can find today. Probably because he's so extreme. He's the one I can relate to the most. One of my favorite books of his is THE DEVIL'S NOTEBOOK. I like what he has to say about society. I also like Nietzsche and Crowley. These guys have always been pointed out as being wrong and evil. I would encourage anyone to read LaVey. I like an idea that he alludes to, the great Satanic Unconsciousness. That everyone is really a Satanist. They just haven't realized it yet. Christians are some of the greatest Satanists because they've managed to pull off such an amazing scam that its almost respectable. Do you follow the philosophy "the strong over the weak"? Most definitely. I don't think it is the strong people's responsibility to constantly be cleaning up after weak people. Its always weak people that come up with statements like "everybody's created equal". I've worked for what I have so why can't you? It's not my responsibility to wipe someone's ass. There's too many people in America. In the world. I think it's nature's way of striking back with all the new horrible diseases that are fucking everyone up. It's nature's way of saying "use some discretion". http://www.esoterra.org/manson.htm

RE: Anton Lavey... what does he mean when he says he's the "one I can relate to the most"?

Lavey himself is quoted someplace as saying his "Satanism" is a kind of "progressive fascism" or "Ayn Rand's (individualist objectivism) philosophy with ceremony & ritual"..

The crucial connection to fascism of course if Lavey's belief that the individual persuit of his or her self-expression should be sought regardless of the "herd". Putting oneself as more important than others is a necessary condition of fascist thought.

Its sounds really nice on the surface, but at base its a philosophy of selfishness.

The only connection there is with Gaga is the Satanists thinking on the encouragement of diversity, finding ones own sexuality etc...

Well... this is just my take on his statements. Feel free to disagree.

First before I can argue whether or not MM is a fascist, we have to define fascist.

Fascism is all about the herd. Individuality is supressed in order to serve the greater good of the herd.

I looked it up in Wiki and it said this:

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalistic political ideology . Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture and blood.

That sounds like herd mentality to me.

The herd members of course must align themselves with the herd in more ways then one. To be part of the heard you must be part of the blood line, the ancestory and the culture. For the nation and for it's survival you must be willing to commit acts of violence and submit to the power of one indisputable leader.

How the hell do you figure that Manson is a nationalist?

How is he saying that we all must slavishly follow one leader?

Where does he ever say that the purity of the herd is more important then the individual?

I think the term "fascist" has become just a big insult word that people sling around even when it is not the case because it has an "ooooh" affect. It is like the word Nazi. If we don't like a white person the worst thing we can call them is a Nazi. It doesn't matter if nothing that they have ever done is at all like being a Nazi, it is the big nasty N word for taking down white people whose ideas frighten the masses. Anyone who advocates for individual responsibility and self ownership is frightening the sheep among us. The sheep love their big government who keep promising to take care of their little lambs. The sheep among us never look to history and see that big government has seldom made good on taking care of the little lambs. But the sheep do not want to think so they never will look at history and big government knows that. The sheep are easily swayed by catchy slogans and empty promises which are kept as vague as possible so when the government does not make good on the promises, they don't have to eat their words.

Unfortunately for Uncle Sam, not all Americans are sheep. Some actually are lions who can not easily be hearded and would rather die than lie down and pretend they are sheep. Are they selfish? Is it selfish to believe that humans are not domestic animals and not meant to be owned by the greater government?

All I can say is that Marilyn Manson is in no way a nationalist and therefore not a fascist. I can not argue any more on this if you are using words to describe him and your definition of that word completely contradicts the definition found in the dictionary.

Deadflow3r said:

lezama said:

I'm more making direct inferences from his quoted statements...

Why do you like Anton LaVey?

I think he's probably the most powerful writer that you can find today. Probably because he's so extreme. He's the one I can relate to the most. One of my favorite books of his is THE DEVIL'S NOTEBOOK. I like what he has to say about society. I also like Nietzsche and Crowley. These guys have always been pointed out as being wrong and evil. I would encourage anyone to read LaVey. I like an idea that he alludes to, the great Satanic Unconsciousness. That everyone is really a Satanist. They just haven't realized it yet. Christians are some of the greatest Satanists because they've managed to pull off such an amazing scam that its almost respectable. Do you follow the philosophy "the strong over the weak"? Most definitely. I don't think it is the strong people's responsibility to constantly be cleaning up after weak people. Its always weak people that come up with statements like "everybody's created equal". I've worked for what I have so why can't you? It's not my responsibility to wipe someone's ass. There's too many people in America. In the world. I think it's nature's way of striking back with all the new horrible diseases that are fucking everyone up. It's nature's way of saying "use some discretion". http://www.esoterra.org/manson.htm

RE: Anton Lavey... what does he mean when he says he's the "one I can relate to the most"?

Lavey himself is quoted someplace as saying his "Satanism" is a kind of "progressive fascism" or "Ayn Rand's (individualist objectivism) philosophy with ceremony & ritual"..

The crucial connection to fascism of course if Lavey's belief that the individual persuit of his or her self-expression should be sought regardless of the "herd". Putting oneself as more important than others is a necessary condition of fascist thought.

Its sounds really nice on the surface, but at base its a philosophy of selfishness.

The only connection there is with Gaga is the Satanists thinking on the encouragement of diversity, finding ones own sexuality etc...

Well... this is just my take on his statements. Feel free to disagree.

First before I can argue whether or not MM is a fascist, we have to define fascist.

Fascism is all about the herd. Individuality is supressed in order to serve the greater good of the herd.

I looked it up in Wiki and it said this:

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalistic political ideology . Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture and blood.

That sounds like herd mentality to me.

The herd members of course must align themselves with the herd in more ways then one. To be part of the heard you must be part of the blood line, the ancestory and the culture. For the nation and for it's survival you must be willing to commit acts of violence and submit to the power of one indisputable leader.

How the hell do you figure that Manson is a nationalist?

How is he saying that we all must slavishly follow one leader?

Where does he ever say that the purity of the herd is more important then the individual?

I think the term "fascist" has become just a big insult word that people sling around even when it is not the case because it has an "ooooh" affect. It is like the word Nazi. If we don't like a white person the worst thing we can call them is a Nazi. It doesn't matter if nothing that they have ever done is at all like being a Nazi, it is the big nasty N word for taking down white people whose ideas frighten the masses. Anyone who advocates for individual responsibility and self ownership is frightening the sheep among us. The sheep love their big government who keep promising to take care of their little lambs. The sheep among us never look to history and see that big government has seldom made good on taking care of the little lambs. But the sheep do not want to think so they never will look at history and big government knows that. The sheep are easily swayed by catchy slogans and empty promises which are kept as vague as possible so when the government does not make good on the promises, they don't have to eat their words.

Unfortunately for Uncle Sam, not all Americans are sheep. Some actually are lions who can not easily be hearded and would rather die than lie down and pretend they are sheep. Are they selfish? Is it selfish to believe that humans are not domestic animals and not meant to be owned by the greater government?

All I can say is that Marilyn Manson is in no way a nationalist and therefore not a fascist. I can not argue any more on this if you are using words to describe him and your definition of that word completely contradicts the definition found in the dictionary.

That definition is poor. This is taken from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

Fasci (from the italian fascio) means "groups of men organized for political purposes"

The reason I call the definition you used poor is because it doesnt relate at all to actual historical events. Italian Fascism and Germany's National Socialism didn't operate by seek[ing] to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture and blood.

Italism fascism was born of a desire of CONQUEST. National Socialism in Germany was born of a desire to simultaneoulsy purge the country of its scapegoat (minorities) and elevate the ideal German and unite them in CONQUEST. The "nation" referred to is a nation of aristocrats, ideal man.

Thats not "herd mentality". Herd mentality from the perspective of fascism is accepting the status quo of living alongside minorities and weak people. Herd mentality means accepting self-denigration, people who don't love life, people who are not vital and lofty! Mussolini taught rising ABOVE the herd and taking back Italy as the Romans once did.

The Satanist (Lavey) adoption of a large part of fascist philosophy has to do with an identification with the desire to unite as elevated, liberated individuals, but not serving a national cause. The flag just happens to be the easiest thing for a fascist to rally behind and get others to join in, but fascism isn't wedded to nationalism. Many studies have discussed this, the most famous of which is Die Massenpsychologie des Faschismus by W. Reich. Fascism is always collective, but not necessarily nationalist.

Reich and later authors (e.g. Guattari) examine in detail the molecular (i.e. non-mass) level of fascism. It just doesn't sprout up at a national level, it begins in places like familial structure.

Both are posers.

aren't they friends or something..?

The one thing I like about Lady Gaga is that she doesn't seem to be self destructive. Manson was a poor excuse for an Antichrist. I don't think that Jesus Christ needs to descend upon the Earth to take on a bloated drug addict; Just stay right there in Heaven because if this is the Antichrist he is soon to self destruct and be out of your hair in no time.

[Edited 10/14/11 18:57pm]

lezama said:

Deadflow3r said:

First before I can argue whether or not MM is a fascist, we have to define fascist.

Fascism is all about the herd. Individuality is supressed in order to serve the greater good of the herd.

I looked it up in Wiki and it said this:

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalistic political ideology . Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture and blood.

That sounds like herd mentality to me.

The herd members of course must align themselves with the herd in more ways then one. To be part of the heard you must be part of the blood line, the ancestory and the culture. For the nation and for it's survival you must be willing to commit acts of violence and submit to the power of one indisputable leader.

How the hell do you figure that Manson is a nationalist?

How is he saying that we all must slavishly follow one leader?

Where does he ever say that the purity of the herd is more important then the individual?

I think the term "fascist" has become just a big insult word that people sling around even when it is not the case because it has an "ooooh" affect. It is like the word Nazi. If we don't like a white person the worst thing we can call them is a Nazi. It doesn't matter if nothing that they have ever done is at all like being a Nazi, it is the big nasty N word for taking down white people whose ideas frighten the masses. Anyone who advocates for individual responsibility and self ownership is frightening the sheep among us. The sheep love their big government who keep promising to take care of their little lambs. The sheep among us never look to history and see that big government has seldom made good on taking care of the little lambs. But the sheep do not want to think so they never will look at history and big government knows that. The sheep are easily swayed by catchy slogans and empty promises which are kept as vague as possible so when the government does not make good on the promises, they don't have to eat their words.

Unfortunately for Uncle Sam, not all Americans are sheep. Some actually are lions who can not easily be hearded and would rather die than lie down and pretend they are sheep. Are they selfish? Is it selfish to believe that humans are not domestic animals and not meant to be owned by the greater government?

All I can say is that Marilyn Manson is in no way a nationalist and therefore not a fascist. I can not argue any more on this if you are using words to describe him and your definition of that word completely contradicts the definition found in the dictionary.

That definition is poor. This is taken from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

fascism 1922, originally used in English 1920 in its Italian form (see fascist). Applied to similar groups in Germany from 1923; applied to everyone since the rise of the Internet. A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

Fasci (from the italian fascio) means "groups of men organized for political purposes"

The reason I call the definition you used poor is because it doesnt relate at all to actual historical events. Italian Fascism and Germany's National Socialism didn't operate by seek[ing] to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture and blood.

Italism fascism was born of a desire of CONQUEST. National Socialism in Germany was born of a desire to simultaneoulsy purge the country of its scapegoat (minorities) and elevate the ideal German and unite them in CONQUEST. The "nation" referred to is a nation of aristocrats, ideal man.

Thats not "herd mentality". Herd mentality from the perspective of fascism is accepting the status quo of living alongside minorities and weak people. Herd mentality means accepting self-denigration, people who don't love life, people who are not vital and lofty! Mussolini taught rising ABOVE the herd and taking back Italy as the Romans once did.

The Satanist (Lavey) adoption of a large part of fascist philosophy has to do with an identification with the desire to unite as elevated, liberated individuals, but not serving a national cause. The flag just happens to be the easiest thing for a fascist to rally behind and get others to join in, but fascism isn't wedded to nationalism. Many studies have discussed this, the most famous of which is Die Massenpsychologie des Faschismus by W. Reich. Fascism is always collective, but not necessarily nationalist.

Reich and later authors (e.g. Guattari) examine in detail the molecular (i.e. non-mass) level of fascism. It just doesn't sprout up at a national level, it begins in places like familial structure.

I have not read any of these things so it would be completely reactionary for me to comment at this time. Let me review what you have suggested and get back to you, thanks.

novabrkr said:

The first Marilyn Manson records were made under the supervision of Trent Reznor and he produced them, so Manson was hardly ripping him off. Reznor is probably more responsible for the overall style of the music on those records than Manson himself. After those first records Manson hasn't really made too many industrial rock tracks in any case.

I wish those records sounded more like Ministry.

Damn, you beat me to it.

It's strange though, I'm a MUCH bigger NIN fan overall than MM..... but my favorite MM record is "Mechanical Animals", which Trent had nothing to do with. I do like Antichrist a lot, though.

^ Yeah, you can tell the difference between Mechanical Animals (which also showcased glam rock and funk rock elements) and the first three official recordings the band did under Trent's direction.

Gaga's better. Emo rock is a horrible genre, gaga can actually sing makes good music

aardvark15 said:

Gaga's better. Emo rock is a horrible genre, gaga can actually sing makes good music

Emo rock? You got Manson fucked up with Panic At the Disco.

they are both so different, only thing that is similar is their looks, they are both eccentric.

But they both make different kind of music, not similar at all.

xLiberiangirl said:

they are both so different, only thing that is similar is their looks, they are both eccentric.

But they both make different kind of music, not similar at all.

Exactumundo.

I swear people make really interesting threads...