prodigalfan said:

babynoz said:

The thing is, at the end of the day it's up to the DA to bring the charges regardless of what the police thought. The police don't have to prove anything...the prosecutor does and since the cops are not lawyers they do not have the final say.

The drunk driving analogy does not hold because drunk driving is illegal but lo and behold, administering propofol at home is negligent but not necessarily illegal as I once thought.

I surely wish they could have brought more severe charges but we have to remember that if the DA did that and failed to meet the legal standard, then Murray would be aquitted, which would be worse.

And that IS the wild thing. Drinking alcohol is legal... but driving drunk is not. To me adminstering propofol outside a hospital type setting is illegal. This is a case where the doctors have too much damn leeway. just because a "doctor" has chosen adminster it doesn't mean that it does not have the same ramifications such as choosing to drive drunk.

I'm sure after this case Propofol in particular will have some legal ramifications to adminstering it.

But there are so many other drugs that are miss-used that cause damage or death to an unsuspecting patient.

[Edited 10/15/11 15:38pm]

I was pretty shocked that it's not illegal. After this I surely hope that someone realizes that there needs to be stricter controls on certain types of drugs and finally make it illegal to use them outside of a clinical setting.

^ right. It is up to the FDA.

They should stop worrying about relatively harmless drugs like medical marijuana, and start paying attention to drugs that freakin' paralyzes your lung muscles and knocks you un-effing-concious.!

prodigalfan said:

petes2 said:

In my opinion, I think super creative people usually have sleeping problems, we've seen it with Elvis and Prince is legendary for his lack of sleep. You add to that all the bs and worries and yes, makes any sleep problem worse. The rigors of touring are well known and even mike said that he "went through hell" on tours but the other day I watched the bad concert from japan, and after seeing Mike in This Is It, it's heartbreaking to see how much passion and life he brought to the stage in his prime. I don't think anyone with any honesty can say that the later years took a lot out of his spirit.

^right.

I believe that super creative/talented people have manic/depressant tendencies. Just my opinion.

To me they operate at a "higher frequency" if you know what I mean. When they are up, they are EXTREMELY up, extremely bright, extremely productive, extremely talented. extremely disarming/charming.

When they are down, they are extremely down, extremely moody. Not just average (like the rest of us) always above average.

So people who are clincially manic depressed they have insomnia when they are on the high part of their disorder. They don't sleep, rest etc. They run themselves ragged. And when they are on the low side... they sleep all the time, exhausted, too tired to work, groom etc.

That is why you see those classic symptoms of depression. They are too tired/down to do the basics.

Well I have noticed that super creative/super talented people also show these same tendencies.

I am not saying that they ARE manic/depressant but I think that thing that makes them a genius mimics the whole manic/depressant syndrome.

My favorite artist always are like that, Elvis' drug problems began with trying to stay awake in his army years during night shifts, but he was always an insomniac and a sleepwalker, the drugs which started out innocently enough began to be used to get to sleep, to wake up and of course for everything else. I know that Bruce Springsteen went through severe depression in his younger years, it fueled his best albums and I think he's levelled off with age. Marvin Gaye of course was consumed by his demons, same thing, a dichotomy of feeling and believing he was the greatest thing ever and consumed by feelings of utter worthlessness, fear and paranoia. What I wonder though, is why younger musicians fall into the same traps having seen the guys before them. People forget it now but Michael was staunchly anti-drug in his prime, spoke out against them all the time. Personally, I'm leery of all drugs and only take what I think helps me, and even leery about that because it's dangerous. I get violent migraines, the kind that make you pretty unfunctional, I take pills for it but not unless I've tried to wait it out, or even if I think I'm getting too many, sometimes I just let myself suffer. Life is pain, no way around it, it's a truth taught in every great religion.

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

^right.

I believe that super creative/talented people have manic/depressant tendencies. Just my opinion.

To me they operate at a "higher frequency" if you know what I mean. When they are up, they are EXTREMELY up, extremely bright, extremely productive, extremely talented. extremely disarming/charming.

When they are down, they are extremely down, extremely moody. Not just average (like the rest of us) always above average.

So people who are clincially manic depressed they have insomnia when they are on the high part of their disorder. They don't sleep, rest etc. They run themselves ragged. And when they are on the low side... they sleep all the time, exhausted, too tired to work, groom etc.

That is why you see those classic symptoms of depression. They are too tired/down to do the basics.

Well I have noticed that super creative/super talented people also show these same tendencies.

I am not saying that they ARE manic/depressant but I think that thing that makes them a genius mimics the whole manic/depressant syndrome.

Too many ultra-talented entertainers and musicians definitely fall in that category. I know Marvin did. And I can believe Stevie probably has those demons - though well hidden from the public eye.

I wouldn't disagree about stevie but he's always the one artist I think of when I think of a guy who's kept his head on straight and wasn't just torn up from the inside. If he had major issues I've never seen a clue.

As I write this, I am in no way comparing myself to any of these amazing people, but I suffer from bipolar disorder and music, dancing, writing etc. is a hobby I was passionate about. Before I was on my meds and my mental health declined, I would honestly get caught up in my own hype without realizing it, and if I ever performed, I would tell myself for those few minutes I am just as good as this artist or that artist, or I AM them as if they are my alter ego, when singing. Ya'll know who I'm talking about. I wasn't diagnosed yet but had highs and lows for so many years and stresses in my life, and had been misdiagnosed in the past with something else. My sleep was crazy too and unstable and still is, and if I felt naturally high after performing, there was no rush like that, I didn't want to sleep just so I can continue feeling good cause I would feel so anxious before it. I was working at a job I wasn't sure I was good at and it required overnight hours too, so I was doing the music thing to feel better about myself and validated, it got to a point where it was for the wrong reasons though it was fun in the beginning, and I would get manic over making it someday or meeting the stars and stuff like that though I knew it was a superficial world and I just cared about a few of them, every little step was like getting closer. I can't do it anymore physically or mentally, I feel like the excitement has been wiped out, and my moods are still up and down though calmer than before I got on meds, though I get crying spells, mixed episodes, paranoia and dissocations a lot, but I write now and I find that the ideas flow better when I'm super depressed or feeling manic and upset, that one time I considered not taking meds so I could write, just so I could feelgood about myself through my art and feel validated as I get more manic and start writing and getting grand ideas, but it's not wise to do that and I'm still capable. Health is more important.

I used to be so inspired by how michael didn't take drugs and drink and all that stuff and I don't do it either though I have only a few times in my life. But when I learned about it, I wasn't really bothered by it, he's a grown ass man, and I was a little older by then. I think he was anti-drug cause of his religion too though, that was my main reason even before I knew it was his.

[Edited 10/15/11 22:46pm]

Just FYI, Court isnt in session tomorrow, resumes on Tuesday along with a new thread.

lazycrockett said:

Just FYI, Court isnt in session tomorrow, resumes on Tuesday along with a new thread.

I guess those of us who care have to gear up--but with the knowledge of the fact that MJ's autopsy photos were exhibited for the general public to devour... Quite frankly, I don't have the heart any more. I haven't seen the photos but the fact that they exist means I might follow this thread but I don't know whether I will tune in to the trail anymore. I still can't believe the judge didn't exclude those photos from being on camera...

lazycrockett said:

Just FYI, Court isnt in session tomorrow, resumes on Tuesday along with a new thread.

How come? Is there a public holiday or something? I wonder what's the defence gonna come up with, cause the prosecutions has the last witness on the stand now. I can't imagine who they are going to call as their witness. What doctor or medical expert would come in to state that Murray's actions were ok? And all the witnesses that were there when Mike died have already testified.

[Edited 10/17/11 8:06am]

the prosecution's last witness had a death in the family hence court is not in session today but will resume tomorrow

babynoz said:

kibbles said:

the cops did want a murder charge, so they thought that there WAS compelling evidence. what murray did was malicious according to the legal standard, and the police don't have to prove 'intent'. plenty of people in cali/l.a. are charged w/voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree murder for killing someone while driving drunk. they don't 'intend' to kill anyone, but their behavior is malicious to the point of showing an utter disregard for human life. that's the burden that the prosecutors had to meet, and i think they've more than met that burden. murray did not call 911, period. he had utter disregard for michael's life.

The thing is, at the end of the day it's up to the DA to bring the charges regardless of what the police thought. The police don't have to prove anything...the prosecutor does and since the cops are not lawyers they do not have the final say.

The drunk driving analogy does not hold because drunk driving is illegal but lo and behold, administering propofol at home is negligent but not necessarily illegal as I once thought.

I surely wish they could have brought more severe charges but we have to remember that if the DA did that and failed to meet the legal standard, then Murray would be aquitted, which would be worse.

alphastreet said:

As I write this, I am in no way comparing myself to any of these amazing people, but I suffer from bipolar disorder and music, dancing, writing etc. is a hobby I was passionate about. Before I was on my meds and my mental health declined, I would honestly get caught up in my own hype without realizing it, and if I ever performed, I would tell myself for those few minutes I am just as good as this artist or that artist, or I AM them as if they are my alter ego, when singing. Ya'll know who I'm talking about. I wasn't diagnosed yet but had highs and lows for so many years and stresses in my life, and had been misdiagnosed in the past with something else. My sleep was crazy too and unstable and still is, and if I felt naturally high after performing, there was no rush like that, I didn't want to sleep just so I can continue feeling good cause I would feel so anxious before it. I was working at a job I wasn't sure I was good at and it required overnight hours too, so I was doing the music thing to feel better about myself and validated, it got to a point where it was for the wrong reasons though it was fun in the beginning, and I would get manic over making it someday or meeting the stars and stuff like that though I knew it was a superficial world and I just cared about a few of them, every little step was like getting closer. I can't do it anymore physically or mentally, I feel like the excitement has been wiped out, and my moods are still up and down though calmer than before I got on meds, though I get crying spells, mixed episodes, paranoia and dissocations a lot, but I write now and I find that the ideas flow better when I'm super depressed or feeling manic and upset, that one time I considered not taking meds so I could write, just so I could feelgood about myself through my art and feel validated as I get more manic and start writing and getting grand ideas, but it's not wise to do that and I'm still capable. Health is more important.

I used to be so inspired by how michael didn't take drugs and drink and all that stuff and I don't do it either though I have only a few times in my life. But when I learned about it, I wasn't really bothered by it, he's a grown ass man, and I was a little older by then. I think he was anti-drug cause of his religion too though, that was my main reason even before I knew it was his.

[Edited 10/15/11 22:46pm]

Alpha, you are sooooo far ahead of the game just by recognizing that Health is more important. There are so many people who don't take their meds because they don't like the way the meds even out the mountains that reach the heavens and the valleys that hit the depths of hell.

The problem is when they are on that high and do impulsive disruptive things that cost them relationships, careers, money etc. But that doesn't compare to the dangers of going so low. Many of these people commit suicide. But you can't tell people that taking the meds makes them better, if the symptoms of the mental disorder are under controlled... therefore undetected, and at the same time you are dealing with those annoying side effects of the meds.

It is easy to think you are "cured" and would do better to get off of the meds because of the side effects. And then you stop taking the meds, and then the mental disorder is back in full effect.

I'm sorry that you were dealt with this hand of cards (bipolar) but GOOD for you that you are able to take control of the situation and carry on.

Life can be good even without the extreme highs and lows.

You know the man who the movie "Beautiful Mind" was written about stopped taking his meds because he felt it dulled the senses. but that is such a RISKY thing... and like you said NOTHING is more imporant than health.

UPDATE: The trial resumes on Wednesday (maybe), partly because of a death in the family of the witness and partly because the defense is getting MJ's stomach contents tested for Lorazepam.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/1...hpt=hp_bn2

You know it is odd that they wouldn't have done a full stomach content during the autopsy.

.

[Edited 10/17/11 22:57pm]

tmo1965 said:

UPDATE: The trial resumes on Wednesday (maybe), partly because of a death in the family of the witness and partly because the defense is getting MJ's stomach contents tested for Lorazepam.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/1...hpt=hp_bn2

How can they test the stomach contents almost three years after the death? Plus it was done in the tosicology report, wasn´t it? They said they couldn´t determine the contents and it still does not excuse Murray´s behaviour. The defence must be desperate.

^Well I dont see how they "couldnt determine the contents" of what was in the stomach. If the coroner for whatever reason cant state what was or wasnt in the the stomach then the defense has reasonable doubt.

Hard to see how the defense can determine it this late in the game...

Timmy84 said:

Hard to see how the defense can determine it this late in the game...

if the defense can make the claim and prove that the coroner didnt do a complete stomach analysis till 2 years after MJ's death, then this case is dead in the water.

Iľl have to watch the coroner´s testimony again, but I think he said they couldn´t determine what was there that there was something that could have been juice or what. Well, as Steinberg says, he´s still guilty of administering propofol for sleep, abandoning him, not calling 911, not informing paramendics of propofol etc. etc. No way he can get away with it!!! Damn it.

[Edited 10/18/11 3:33am]

lazycrockett said:

^Well I dont see how they "couldnt determine the contents" of what was in the stomach. If the coroner for whatever reason cant state what was or wasnt in the the stomach then the defense has reasonable doubt.

I thought they stated they found a partially digested 2 mg Ativan pill. And nothing else which would demonstrate the duplicity of the doctor who stated that MJ took MULTIPLE Ativans before receiving IV propofol.

As far as how can they test the contents... I think they keep samples of tissue, body fluid etc in some sort of stabilized sample so that if additional tests need to be performed, they have the samples to run, just like they did during the original autopsy.

The problem comes in, if the coroner didn't gather the sample, didn't gather enough so they ran out, the sample has become compromised during storage... (not preserved properly) or if there becomes reasonable doubt for source of the sample..(doubt that it was indeed MJ's tissue etc.)

Maybe Babynoz can enlighten us about possible reasons that the defense is revisting the stomach content issue... because I thought this angle had been thoroughly examined prior to the court case.

prodigalfan said:

alphastreet said:

As I write this, I am in no way comparing myself to any of these amazing people, but I suffer from bipolar disorder and music, dancing, writing etc. is a hobby I was passionate about. Before I was on my meds and my mental health declined, I would honestly get caught up in my own hype without realizing it, and if I ever performed, I would tell myself for those few minutes I am just as good as this artist or that artist, or I AM them as if they are my alter ego, when singing. Ya'll know who I'm talking about. I wasn't diagnosed yet but had highs and lows for so many years and stresses in my life, and had been misdiagnosed in the past with something else. My sleep was crazy too and unstable and still is, and if I felt naturally high after performing, there was no rush like that, I didn't want to sleep just so I can continue feeling good cause I would feel so anxious before it. I was working at a job I wasn't sure I was good at and it required overnight hours too, so I was doing the music thing to feel better about myself and validated, it got to a point where it was for the wrong reasons though it was fun in the beginning, and I would get manic over making it someday or meeting the stars and stuff like that though I knew it was a superficial world and I just cared about a few of them, every little step was like getting closer. I can't do it anymore physically or mentally, I feel like the excitement has been wiped out, and my moods are still up and down though calmer than before I got on meds, though I get crying spells, mixed episodes, paranoia and dissocations a lot, but I write now and I find that the ideas flow better when I'm super depressed or feeling manic and upset, that one time I considered not taking meds so I could write, just so I could feelgood about myself through my art and feel validated as I get more manic and start writing and getting grand ideas, but it's not wise to do that and I'm still capable. Health is more important.

I used to be so inspired by how michael didn't take drugs and drink and all that stuff and I don't do it either though I have only a few times in my life. But when I learned about it, I wasn't really bothered by it, he's a grown ass man, and I was a little older by then. I think he was anti-drug cause of his religion too though, that was my main reason even before I knew it was his.

[Edited 10/15/11 22:46pm]

Alpha, you are sooooo far ahead of the game just by recognizing that Health is more important. There are so many people who don't take their meds because they don't like the way the meds even out the mountains that reach the heavens and the valleys that hit the depths of hell.

The problem is when they are on that high and do impulsive disruptive things that cost them relationships, careers, money etc. But that doesn't compare to the dangers of going so low. Many of these people commit suicide. But you can't tell people that taking the meds makes them better, if the symptoms of the mental disorder are under controlled... therefore undetected, and at the same time you are dealing with those annoying side effects of the meds.

It is easy to think you are "cured" and would do better to get off of the meds because of the side effects. And then you stop taking the meds, and then the mental disorder is back in full effect.

I'm sorry that you were dealt with this hand of cards (bipolar) but GOOD for you that you are able to take control of the situation and carry on.

Life can be good even without the extreme highs and lows.

You know the man who the movie "Beautiful Mind" was written about stopped taking his meds because he felt it dulled the senses. but that is such a RISKY thing... and like you said NOTHING is more imporant than health.

Bipolar is not the only condition to have symptoms of extreme moods. A big reason why people don't take their meds is because it isn't as simple as take meds = mood becomes stable. Not trying to criticize you, if the meds help you then great.

prodigalfan said:

lazycrockett said:

^Well I dont see how they "couldnt determine the contents" of what was in the stomach. If the coroner for whatever reason cant state what was or wasnt in the the stomach then the defense has reasonable doubt.

As far as how can they test the contents... I think they keep samples of tissue, body fluid etc in some sort of stabilized sample so that if additional tests need to be performed, they have the samples to run, just like they did during the original autopsy.

The problem comes in, if the coroner didn't gather the sample, didn't gather enough so they ran out, the sample has become compromised during storage... (not preserved properly) or if there becomes reasonable doubt for source of the sample..(doubt that it was indeed MJ's tissue etc.)

Maybe Babynoz can enlighten us about possible reasons that the defense is revisting the stomach content issue... because I thought this angle had been thoroughly examined prior to the court case.

I thought so too.

lazycrockett said:

Timmy84 said:

Hard to see how the defense can determine it this late in the game...

if the defense can make the claim and prove that the coroner didnt do a complete stomach analysis till 2 years after MJ's death, then this case is dead in the water.

yeah, so dead in the water.

except for the fact that the DEFENSE'S analysis is wrong, leaving the defense to try to account for their inaccuracies (hence the reason for the trial delay), not to mention their client's repeated lies and omissions throughout the investigation, i see what you mean. (, you're grasping again.)

kibbles said:

lazycrockett said:

if the defense can make the claim and prove that the coroner didnt do a complete stomach analysis till 2 years after MJ's death, then this case is dead in the water.

yeah, so dead in the water.

except for the fact that the DEFENSE'S analysis is wrong, leaving the defense to try to account for their inaccuracies (hence the reason for the trial delay), not to mention their client's repeated lies and omissions throughout the investigation, i see what you mean. (, you're grasping again.)

That's why I said I don't see how the defense could actually prove their case especially since they changed things already. They couldn't say Michael "drunk" the pills to kill himself purposely. So what the hell will they say? He accidentally killed himself? What would they try to find? The smoking gun being a suicide note? Their theories don't make sense.

Timmy84 said:

kibbles said:

yeah, so dead in the water.

except for the fact that the DEFENSE'S analysis is wrong, leaving the defense to try to account for their inaccuracies (hence the reason for the trial delay), not to mention their client's repeated lies and omissions throughout the investigation, i see what you mean. (, you're grasping again.)

That's why I said I don't see how the defense could actually prove their case especially since they changed things already. They couldn't say Michael "drunk" the pills to kill himself purposely. So what the hell will they say? He accidentally killed himself? What would they try to find? The smoking gun being a suicide note? Their theories don't make sense.

I don¨t understand how is it even possible to change your defense strategy. First to claim that person injected himself the propofol and then say you won't go after that? By saying that, you're admitting you were lying so why not lock that person up just on that basis? Everyone is sworn to tell the truth, aren't they?

dag said:

Timmy84 said:

That's why I said I don't see how the defense could actually prove their case especially since they changed things already. They couldn't say Michael "drunk" the pills to kill himself purposely. So what the hell will they say? He accidentally killed himself? What would they try to find? The smoking gun being a suicide note? Their theories don't make sense.

I don¨t understand how is it even possible to change your defense strategy. First to claim that person injected himself the propofol and then say you won't go after that? By saying that, you're admitting you were lying so why not lock that person up just on that basis? Everyone is sworn to tell the truth, aren't they?

I don't get it either but this isn't the first time either side had to change their story...

dag said:

Timmy84 said:

That's why I said I don't see how the defense could actually prove their case especially since they changed things already. They couldn't say Michael "drunk" the pills to kill himself purposely. So what the hell will they say? He accidentally killed himself? What would they try to find? The smoking gun being a suicide note? Their theories don't make sense.

I don¨t understand how is it even possible to change your defense strategy. First to claim that person injected himself the propofol and then say you won't go after that? By saying that, you're admitting you were lying so why not lock that person up just on that basis? Everyone is sworn to tell the truth, aren't they?

Well, since this was "only" a theory, rather than facing the most logical, that the doctor's action killed him, it' s not really a problem or offense for them to change their theory, once they were proven wrong.

The doctor claims, whatever he gave him shouldn't have killed him and that he doesn't know what happened... so the defense tried to float the ridiculous idea of Michael taking that shit himself. Now they will come up with something else.

I'm not paying attention to this stupid trial anymore, that's why I'm not really commenting anymore. It's garbage and no outcome is bringing michael back, it's just too stupid to even get upset over. This Conrad Murray is a fool and has taught me something about how important it is to never end up like him and to protect myself at work when dealing with emergencies.

I agree that what I'm taking isn't really helping me either though it's somewhat stablizing. While I agree people who need meds for mental health issues may need them to function, a lot of times I think it should be a last resort, but for me, that's what it had become cause I was living in denial and let it get worse and that was harder to get out of. It took a long time to accept I needed it the way a diabetic needs their meds to function, and even now, I'm not even sure if what I have is the right dosage, cause I'm only a bit of a calmer version of before, but I act out when triggered though I have ways to tackle it.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

The thing is, at the end of the day it's up to the DA to bring the charges regardless of what the police thought. The police don't have to prove anything...the prosecutor does and since the cops are not lawyers they do not have the final say.

The drunk driving analogy does not hold because drunk driving is illegal but lo and behold, administering propofol at home is negligent but not necessarily illegal as I once thought.

I surely wish they could have brought more severe charges but we have to remember that if the DA did that and failed to meet the legal standard, then Murray would be aquitted, which would be worse.

the point i was making was not whether it is legal or illegal to have propofol in the house or to administer it there. the broader point i was making is that there is a standard for administering propofol, which murray not only ignored, but he ignored it in such a way that could be deemed more than mere negligence. the reason that drunk driving is "illegal" is that depending on the circumstances it can meet the definition of 2nd degree murder. i think in this circumstance, murray's actions also meet that standard. moreover, i certainly know that it isn't the lapd who decides to charge, it is the d.a., and i am not alone in the belief that they made the wrong decision.

Yes, I got your point, the thing is it isn't so much what the prosecutor can charge but moreso what they can prove. In order to get a conviction of 2nd dgree murder for instance, they would need to prove that Murray was "intentionally" negligent beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, if Murray was criminally negilgent, where is the proof of intent?

For instance, if the defense argues that the death was accidental due to an error in judgement and the prosecutor has no evidence to the contrary, then they likely won't get a murder conviction. It goes like this...

.7. Elements of murder

In order to prove that you are guilty of violating California's murder law, the prosecutor must prove the following three facts (otherwise known as "elements of the offense"):

1. that you committed an act that resulted in death to another person (or a fetus),
2. that you committed the act with malice aforethought, and
3. that you killed without lawful excuse or justification.¹⁵

http://www.shouselaw.com/...r.html#1.6

The higher standard of proof opens the door for the defense to introduce more counter arguments and thus more opportunities to introduce reasonable doubt and a greater possibility of aquittal.

I wish they could have gone with the murder charge but I understand why they didn't. Basically too much of a risk that Murray would walk.

Not trying to change your mind, just explaining why the decision was made to go with the manslaughter charge.