babybugz said:

Did anybody read on TMZ that Murray might only be getting house arrest if convicted because of the overcrowding?

Overcrowding? OK, they seriously need to cut loose all the weed smokers!

tmo1965 said:

estelle81 said:

MJ weighed less than 115 pound upon his death and was already drugged prior to that fatal dose.

Correction. According to the autopsy report, MJ weighed 136 lbs. The 115 figure was widely reported right after his death, but that was not correct.

tupac was listed as 215 on his autopsy, could it be possible that mike's was innacurate too? I remember in his prime it was well known that he weighed 105 and he is listed at 120 on his license i think. I've always thought his weight loss had the most effect on his changing look in the eighties at least in those 81-85 years. He used to starve himself. I think they say he weighed about 140 before the drastic weight loss which is normal for his build.

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

Did anybody read on TMZ that Murray might only be getting house arrest if convicted because of the overcrowding?

Overcrowding? OK, they seriously need to cut loose all the weed smokers!

Most experts say that even if found guilty and given 4 years he might serve a year max or just may get probation. I haven't heard of any talk bout house arrest.

lazycrockett said:

Timmy84 said:

Overcrowding? OK, they seriously need to cut loose all the weed smokers!

Most experts say that even if found guilty and given 4 years he might serve a year max or just may get probation. I haven't heard of any talk bout house arrest.

It's possible.

petes2 said:

tmo1965 said:

Correction. According to the autopsy report, MJ weighed 136 lbs. The 115 figure was widely reported right after his death, but that was not correct.

tupac was listed as 215 on his autopsy, could it be possible that mike's was innacurate too? I remember in his prime it was well known that he weighed 105 and he is listed at 120 on his license i think. I've always thought his weight loss had the most effect on his changing look in the eighties at least in those 81-85 years. He used to starve himself. I think they say he weighed about 140 before the drastic weight loss which is normal for his build.

Tupac was also 6 feet tall with a somewhat muscular build. It's entirely possible that he weighed 215 lbs. I'm believing the official reports over what's reported in the news media.

Timmy84 said:

lazycrockett said:

Most experts say that even if found guilty and given 4 years he might serve a year max or just may get probation. I haven't heard of any talk bout house arrest.

It's possible.

That would be travesty. He deserves to physically serve at least 10 years. imo.

tmo1965 said:

Timmy84 said:

It's possible.

That would be travesty. He deserves to physically serve at least 10 years. imo.

It would've been possible had the prosecution NOT agree to the terms of his charges...

[Edited 10/14/11 17:16pm]

babybugz said:

Sorry Michael weight didn't sit well with me in This is it .

He was definitely much thinner than usual in This is It.

On another subject, the This Is It title turned out to be prophetic.

^Thats why I keep thinking that the Defense has to have SOMETHING to swing the balance of the trial to reasonable doubt.

lazycrockett said:

^Thats why I keep thinking that the Defense has to have SOMETHING to swing the balance of the trial to reasonable doubt.

Judging from their cross examination, I don't see it... but like I said constantly, we'll see what happens.

tmo1965 said:

babybugz said:

Sorry Michael weight didn't sit well with me in This is it .

He was definitely much thinner than usual in This is It.

I agree. Even though Mike was always a very thin dude, in some parts of This Is It he seems extremely thin to me.

On another subject, the This Is It title turned out to be prophetic.

Yes,unfortunatelly.

Timmy84 said:

lazycrockett said:

^Thats why I keep thinking that the Defense has to have SOMETHING to swing the balance of the trial to reasonable doubt.

Judging from their cross examination, I don't see it... but like I said constantly, we'll see what happens.

I guess it's possible, but I doubt that the defense has a compelling case for reasonable doubt. The prosecution probably went for the lesser charge because there isn't any compelling evidence of malice, premeditation, motive or intent to kill which is what they would need to be able to prove a case of murder.

Even negligent homicide would require a clear element of criminality and I'm not sure they even have that charge in Cali but the sentence would be similar anyway.

Manslaughter was their best chance of getting an actual conviction although I read somewhere that the cops wanted a murder charge. Ultimately it's the decision of the prosecutor's office.

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Judging from their cross examination, I don't see it... but like I said constantly, we'll see what happens.

I guess it's possible, but I doubt that the defense has a compelling case for reasonable doubt. The prosecution probably went for the lesser charge because there isn't any compelling evidence of malice, premeditation, motive or intent to kill which is what they would need to be able to prove a case of murder.

Even negligent homicide would require a clear element of criminality and I'm not sure they even have that charge in Cali but the sentence would be similar anyway.

Manslaughter was their best chance of getting an actual conviction although I read somewhere that the cops wanted a murder charge. Ultimately it's the decision of the prosecutor's office.

Yeah the LAPD wanted second degree murder charges.

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Judging from their cross examination, I don't see it... but like I said constantly, we'll see what happens.

I guess it's possible, but I doubt that the defense has a compelling case for reasonable doubt. The prosecution probably went for the lesser charge because there isn't any compelling evidence of malice, premeditation, motive or intent to kill which is what they would need to be able to prove a case of murder.

Even negligent homicide would require a clear element of criminality and I'm not sure they even have that charge in Cali but the sentence would be similar anyway.

Manslaughter was their best chance of getting an actual conviction although I read somewhere that the cops wanted a murder charge. Ultimately it's the decision of the prosecutor's office.

lazycrockett said:

^Thats why I keep thinking that the Defense has to have SOMETHING to swing the balance of the trial to reasonable doubt.

kibbles said:

lazycrockett said:

^Thats why I keep thinking that the Defense has to have SOMETHING to swing the balance of the trial to reasonable doubt.

they have absolutely nothing. they've had to abandon the 'he drank it' theory, telling the judge today that they knew they never really planned to use it. their claim that mj swallowed a handful of pills has been undermined by the fact that no pills were found in his system, and the fact that there were plenty left in a bottle that murray prescribed. what kind of addict leaves drugs behind? their claim that mj was awake to speak to murray at all to 'demand more propofol' is undermined by the tape of mj under heavy sedation by the drugs murray gave him only a few weeks before, pointing to the fact that the drugs absolutely had a devastating effect on him. mj was likely never awake to demand anything from murray. he was out cold and murray wasn't monitoring him, off making phone calls to all and sundry. klein is a red herring. unlike murray, he can account for when and what he gave mj because he kept records. apparently, mj hadn't been to him in several days leading up to his death. again, what kind of addict can go w/o his fix? if he was so hooked on demerol, and as murray claimed in his interview, used to injecting himself, where is mj's 'secret stash', his own needles, and other paraphrenalia, etc? don't addicts usually have that? moreover, in case you hadn't noticed, the defense was dropping hints that murray was away from mj longer than the 2 minutes he initially claimed he was to police. when you've proven yourself to be a liar, it is reasonable for a jury to conclude you are one and most times there is little doubt as to your subsequent conviction. their experts may claim that propofol has been administered for sleep therapy, but the pros will want to know if the doctors were out of the room when the patients were under, they will say 'no', and murray is back to where he started. they have nothing.

Timmy84 said:

babynoz said:

I guess it's possible, but I doubt that the defense has a compelling case for reasonable doubt. The prosecution probably went for the lesser charge because there isn't any compelling evidence of malice, premeditation, motive or intent to kill which is what they would need to be able to prove a case of murder.

Even negligent homicide would require a clear element of criminality and I'm not sure they even have that charge in Cali but the sentence would be similar anyway.

Manslaughter was their best chance of getting an actual conviction although I read somewhere that the cops wanted a murder charge. Ultimately it's the decision of the prosecutor's office.

Yeah the LAPD wanted second degree murder charges.

This has been floated around here a couple of times, but after googling and searching around I have yet to find any factual evidence/link that the LAPD wanted 2nd degree murder charges but were shot down by the DA.

[Edited 10/14/11 19:42pm]

I think we can all agree that whatever Murray gets we won't be satisfied, even with the maximum, which he most likely will not get. I doubt he is even worried about a long sentence.

kibbles said:

babynoz said:

I guess it's possible, but I doubt that the defense has a compelling case for reasonable doubt. The prosecution probably went for the lesser charge because there isn't any compelling evidence of malice, premeditation, motive or intent to kill which is what they would need to be able to prove a case of murder.

Even negligent homicide would require a clear element of criminality and I'm not sure they even have that charge in Cali but the sentence would be similar anyway.

Manslaughter was their best chance of getting an actual conviction although I read somewhere that the cops wanted a murder charge. Ultimately it's the decision of the prosecutor's office.

the cops did want a murder charge, so they thought that there WAS compelling evidence. what murray did was malicious according to the legal standard, and the police don't have to prove 'intent'. plenty of people in cali/l.a. are charged w/voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree murder for killing someone while driving drunk. they don't 'intend' to kill anyone, but their behavior is malicious to the point of showing an utter disregard for human life. that's the burden that the prosecutors had to meet, and i think they've more than met that burden. murray did not call 911, period. he had utter disregard for michael's life.

The thing is, at the end of the day it's up to the DA to bring the charges regardless of what the police thought. The police don't have to prove anything...the prosecutor does and since the cops are not lawyers they do not have the final say.

The drunk driving analogy does not hold because drunk driving is illegal but lo and behold, administering propofol at home is negligent but not necessarily illegal as I once thought.

I surely wish they could have brought more severe charges but we have to remember that if the DA did that and failed to meet the legal standard, then Murray would be aquitted, which would be worse.

lazycrockett said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah the LAPD wanted second degree murder charges.

This has been floated around here a couple of times, but after googling and searching around I have yet to find any factual evidence/link that the LAPD wanted 2nd degree murder charges but were shot down by the DA.

[Edited 10/14/11 19:42pm]

My son says we heard it mentioned on HLN but I dunno if there's an official source saying it.

petes2 said:

I think we can all agree that whatever Murray gets we won't be satisfied, even with the maximum, which he most likely will not get. I doubt he is even worried about a long sentence.

Ain't that the thuth! I wish we could bury him neck deep in an anthill full of fire-ants but even if they throw the book at him it's doubtful he will serve the full four years.

He's gonna spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder though.

NaughtyKitty said:

catpark said:

NaughtyKitty said:

Yeah its ridiculous. Dont know why these people want to start fan pages for these two. Yes they're great at what they do but devoting a Facebook page to them? I've even seen some MJ fans posting pictures of Dr. Steinburg in their siggies underneath their pic of MJ.

It is a bit over the top but so what leave people to create what they want, there not bothering anyone. I dislike facebook and think its silly and can be distructive place but I won't get all righteous and start looking my nose down at it either coz who am I to judge.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

no offence intended!

There's no need to get all defensive over people's comments. Please, nobody's being self righteous and looking down on people here. Its called expressing an opinion. For the record people are free to create fan pages for the prosecutor and such if they want to and people are free to express their distaste for it if they dont like it. People can express opinions on the internet you know

[Edited 10/13/11 16:22pm]

oh indeed indeed.

tmo1965 said:

petes2 said:

tupac was listed as 215 on his autopsy, could it be possible that mike's was innacurate too? I remember in his prime it was well known that he weighed 105 and he is listed at 120 on his license i think. I've always thought his weight loss had the most effect on his changing look in the eighties at least in those 81-85 years. He used to starve himself. I think they say he weighed about 140 before the drastic weight loss which is normal for his build.

Tupac was also 6 feet tall with a somewhat muscular build. It's entirely possible that he weighed 215 lbs. I'm believing the official reports over what's reported in the news media.

No he was not. Pac was 5ft7 and weighed 165.

Militant said:

tmo1965 said:

Tupac was also 6 feet tall with a somewhat muscular build. It's entirely possible that he weighed 215 lbs. I'm believing the official reports over what's reported in the news media.

No he was not. Pac was 5ft7 and weighed 165.

ya, that's what I've read too, don't know how they came up with those autopsy numbers. 215 would be fifty pounds off, the coroner said something to the effect that it wasn't uncommon.

I was thinking about Mike's insomnia and truly is it any wonder he couldn¨t sleep?

When you read Moonwalk, he says once he became a member of the group, he'd rehearse till late at night and than go somewhere, perform and get back home after midnight. He wasn't given the privilage to get enough sleep even as a child.

Once they got famous, started doing tours and travelling around the world, performing in different time zones, his body wasn't able to create some kindy of regular regimen and that went on till his adulthood.

Then the idiotic charges came and then the trial where he had to live for several months going to court scared, listen to terrifiyng BS against him, having revealed embarrassing details from his privacy fearing prison not knowing what's gonna happen to his children and then facing a tour after being offstage for 10 years, not being sure whether he can make it, not wanting to dissapoint fans who expect nothing, but perfection from him knowing that the rest is just waiting for any mistake he makes just to degrade him and being the genius he was, constantly having ideas in your head...

I wonder if he had that luxary to sleep entirely throughout at least one night since the age of 5 when he started performing.

dag said:

I was thinking about Mike's insomnia and truly is it any wonder he couldn¨t sleep?

When you read Moonwalk, he says once he became a member of the group, he'd rehearse till late at night and than go somewhere, perform and get back home after midnight. He wasn't given the privilage to get enough sleep even as a child.

Once they got famous, started doing tours and travelling around the world, performing in different time zones, his body wasn't able to create some kindy of regular regimen and that went on till his adulthood.

Then the idiotic charges came and then the trial where he had to live for several months going to court scared, listen to terrifiyng BS against him, having revealed embarrassing details from his privacy fearing prison not knowing what's gonna happen to his children and then facing a tour after being offstage for 10 years, not being sure whether he can make it, not wanting to dissapoint fans who expect nothing, but perfection from him knowing that the rest is just waiting for any mistake he makes just to degrade him and being the genius he was, constantly having ideas in your head...

I wonder if he had that luxary to sleep entirely throughout at least one night since the age of 5 when he started performing.

In my opinion, I think super creative people usually have sleeping problems, we've seen it with Elvis and Prince is legendary for his lack of sleep. You add to that all the bs and worries and yes, makes any sleep problem worse. The rigors of touring are well known and even mike said that he "went through hell" on tours but the other day I watched the bad concert from japan, and after seeing Mike in This Is It, it's heartbreaking to see how much passion and life he brought to the stage in his prime. I don't think anyone with any honesty can say that the later years took a lot out of his spirit.

Add people who have had injuries or have worked night shifts for long periods of time, you're never quite the same again.

babynoz said:

kibbles said:

the cops did want a murder charge, so they thought that there WAS compelling evidence. what murray did was malicious according to the legal standard, and the police don't have to prove 'intent'. plenty of people in cali/l.a. are charged w/voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree murder for killing someone while driving drunk. they don't 'intend' to kill anyone, but their behavior is malicious to the point of showing an utter disregard for human life. that's the burden that the prosecutors had to meet, and i think they've more than met that burden. murray did not call 911, period. he had utter disregard for michael's life.

The thing is, at the end of the day it's up to the DA to bring the charges regardless of what the police thought. The police don't have to prove anything...the prosecutor does and since the cops are not lawyers they do not have the final say.

The drunk driving analogy does not hold because drunk driving is illegal but lo and behold, administering propofol at home is negligent but not necessarily illegal as I once thought.

I surely wish they could have brought more severe charges but we have to remember that if the DA did that and failed to meet the legal standard, then Murray would be aquitted, which would be worse.

And that IS the wild thing. Drinking alcohol is legal... but driving drunk is not. To me adminstering propofol outside a hospital type setting is illegal. This is a case where the doctors have too much damn leeway. just because a "doctor" has chosen adminster it doesn't mean that it does not have the same ramifications such as choosing to drive drunk.

I'm sure after this case Propofol in particular will have some legal ramifications to adminstering it.

But there are so many other drugs that are miss-used that cause damage or death to an unsuspecting patient.

[Edited 10/15/11 15:38pm]

petes2 said:

dag said:

I was thinking about Mike's insomnia and truly is it any wonder he couldn¨t sleep?

When you read Moonwalk, he says once he became a member of the group, he'd rehearse till late at night and than go somewhere, perform and get back home after midnight. He wasn't given the privilage to get enough sleep even as a child.

Once they got famous, started doing tours and travelling around the world, performing in different time zones, his body wasn't able to create some kindy of regular regimen and that went on till his adulthood.

Then the idiotic charges came and then the trial where he had to live for several months going to court scared, listen to terrifiyng BS against him, having revealed embarrassing details from his privacy fearing prison not knowing what's gonna happen to his children and then facing a tour after being offstage for 10 years, not being sure whether he can make it, not wanting to dissapoint fans who expect nothing, but perfection from him knowing that the rest is just waiting for any mistake he makes just to degrade him and being the genius he was, constantly having ideas in your head...

I wonder if he had that luxary to sleep entirely throughout at least one night since the age of 5 when he started performing.

In my opinion, I think super creative people usually have sleeping problems, we've seen it with Elvis and Prince is legendary for his lack of sleep. You add to that all the bs and worries and yes, makes any sleep problem worse. The rigors of touring are well known and even mike said that he "went through hell" on tours but the other day I watched the bad concert from japan, and after seeing Mike in This Is It, it's heartbreaking to see how much passion and life he brought to the stage in his prime. I don't think anyone with any honesty can say that the later years took a lot out of his spirit.

^right.

I believe that super creative/talented people have manic/depressant tendencies. Just my opinion.

To me they operate at a "higher frequency" if you know what I mean. When they are up, they are EXTREMELY up, extremely bright, extremely productive, extremely talented. extremely disarming/charming.

When they are down, they are extremely down, extremely moody. Not just average (like the rest of us) always above average.

So people who are clincially manic depressed they have insomnia when they are on the high part of their disorder. They don't sleep, rest etc. They run themselves ragged. And when they are on the low side... they sleep all the time, exhausted, too tired to work, groom etc.

That is why you see those classic symptoms of depression. They are too tired/down to do the basics.

Well I have noticed that super creative/super talented people also show these same tendencies.

I am not saying that they ARE manic/depressant but I think that thing that makes them a genius mimics the whole manic/depressant syndrome.

prodigalfan said:

petes2 said:

In my opinion, I think super creative people usually have sleeping problems, we've seen it with Elvis and Prince is legendary for his lack of sleep. You add to that all the bs and worries and yes, makes any sleep problem worse. The rigors of touring are well known and even mike said that he "went through hell" on tours but the other day I watched the bad concert from japan, and after seeing Mike in This Is It, it's heartbreaking to see how much passion and life he brought to the stage in his prime. I don't think anyone with any honesty can say that the later years took a lot out of his spirit.

^right.

I believe that super creative/talented people have manic/depressant tendencies. Just my opinion.

To me they operate at a "higher frequency" if you know what I mean. When they are up, they are EXTREMELY up, extremely bright, extremely productive, extremely talented. extremely disarming/charming.

When they are down, they are extremely down, extremely moody. Not just average (like the rest of us) always above average.

So people who are clincially manic depressed they have insomnia when they are on the high part of their disorder. They don't sleep, rest etc. They run themselves ragged. And when they are on the low side... they sleep all the time, exhausted, too tired to work, groom etc.

That is why you see those classic symptoms of depression. They are too tired/down to do the basics.

Well I have noticed that super creative/super talented people also show these same tendencies.

I am not saying that they ARE manic/depressant but I think that thing that makes them a genius mimics the whole manic/depressant syndrome.

Too many ultra-talented entertainers and musicians definitely fall in that category. I know Marvin did. And I can believe Stevie probably has those demons - though well hidden from the public eye.