Timmy84 said:

babynoz said:

LOL! I think it's still the prosecution's case, they haven't rested yet. This is only defense cross examination.

Ah OK...

For the life of me I don't get the defense line of questioning. He was actually arguing with the witness that Murray left MJ alone for longer than the two minutes reported and that does not help his client. Everything he established in cross-examination was actually more beneficial to the prosecution.

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Ah OK...

For the life of me I don't get the defense line of questioning. He was actually arguing with the witness that Murray left MJ alone for longer than the two minutes reported and that does not help his client. Everything he established in cross-examination was actually more beneficial to the prosecution.

I would love to see today's trial or the transcripts. Does anyone have a source or link?

Is asking for a "link" even allowed on the Org???

j/king... I know I am being a brat.

prodigalfan said:

purplethunder3121 said:

I take it from some of your comments that you might work in the medical field. It is very enlightening to read comments from someone with a medical background. I take it propofol might be the same drug used in procedures such as a colonoscopy? If so, I have taken it as a patient and I would never consider using it at home even with medical personnel in attendance for a sleep disorder...and I do periodically suffer from bad insomnia. The information in this trial is very enlightening from medical experts on the prosecution's side.

BTW--just a silly thing I noticed-- the last doctor I saw on the stand today reminded me of Norman Bates, sorry to say, with all the grimaces, hand gestures, and slicked-down nerdiness. It didn't take away from his testimony but I found him a little creepy. I'm not sure of his name--I came back to the trial for snippets of the testimony as I was doing other work.

Oh and yes, Propofol may have been used in colonoscopy if you were completely out. I would bet though they used Versed and Fentanyl. Sort of like a twilight combo. Propofol is easy to use... but since it can only be given by an Anesthesiologist or Nurse anethestics... no one wants to wait for them to show up for your case. If you can keep the patient comfortable and sedated without propofol... then that is what you rather do.

Besides... Propofol has the potential for some tricky and deadly adverse reactions.... low b/p and respiratory arrest are the 2 big ones.

I've had it done with twilight the first time and knocked out the second. I preferred being knocked out since it's quite uncomfortable.

Some questions for ya. The testimony is that Murray gave MJ several other sedatives before the propofol. I'm curious if drug interaction could have played a part in causing the respiratory arrest?

Also the doc testified that cpr was not the correct procedure because it wasn't a cardiac arrest so why would Murray have done it? And why was the ambu bag on the daggone floor???

As you can see, we need you here...

prodigalfan said:

babynoz said:

For the life of me I don't get the defense line of questioning. He was actually arguing with the witness that Murray left MJ alone for longer than the two minutes reported and that does not help his client. Everything he established in cross-examination was actually more beneficial to the prosecution.

I would love to see today's trial or the transcripts. Does anyone have a source or link?

Is asking for a "link" even allowed on the Org???

j/king... I know I am being a brat.

I was going to ask the same about posting clips of Dr. Steinberg so hot it should be illegal!

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

This is the exact testimony that the second physician gave. He's a pulmonary/sleep specialist. He said that he has used propofol in the ICU, but there are restrictions in using it. Both doctors have agreed and testified that Propofol should have never been used in a home setting. You need supervision and proper medical equipment for it. A nurse like you for an example should have been by his side or any patient.

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The cardiologist seems more appalled at the thought of using propofol for sleep. He was grilling Murray. I believe that he said that propofol is not even FDA approved. Also, he stated that MJ went into respiratory arrest NOT cardiac arrest. Therefore, he could have been saved, had Murray called 911 right away, in addition to him using proper procedure. MJ did not need cpr, he needed oxygen. His heart was beating fast and his pressure was dropping, yet he still had a pulse. This is according to the cardiologist.

prodigalfan said:

babynoz said:

For the life of me I don't get the defense line of questioning. He was actually arguing with the witness that Murray left MJ alone for longer than the two minutes reported and that does not help his client. Everything he established in cross-examination was actually more beneficial to the prosecution.

I would love to see today's trial or the transcripts. Does anyone have a source or link?

Is asking for a "link" even allowed on the Org???

j/king... I know I am being a brat.

Here's the video...

part 2

On a side note, this is one of the best judges I've seen and I've literally worked with dozens of them. He is sharp as hell, unlike that idiot from the OJ trial, judge Ito.

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

This is the exact testimony that the second physician gave. He's a pulmonary/sleep specialist. He said that he has used propofol in the ICU, but there are restrictions in using it. Both doctors have agreed and testified that Propofol should have never been used in a home setting. You need supervision and proper medical equipment for it. A nurse like you for an example should have been by his side or any patient.

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

angel345 said:

prodigalfan said:

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The cardiologist seems more appalled at the thought of using propofol for sleep. He was grilling Murray. I believe that he said that propofol is not even FDA approved. Also, he stated that MJ went into respiratory arrest NOT cardiac arrest. Therefore, he could have been saved, had Murray called 911 right away, in addition to him using proper procedure. MJ did not need cpr, he needed oxygen. His heart was beating fast and his pressure was dropping, yet he still had a pulse. This is according to the cardiologist.

Yep, the witness was appalled for real. He said there were eight separate violations of treatment protocol.

The real reason that Murray didn't call 911 right away is because he was busy hiding vials

alphastreet said:

Yeah it's really not my thing either at all in real life, but I do get sensitive if you know what I mean though it has nothing to do with attraction

Like it's an distraction to you, I can dig it.

purplethunder3121 said:

prodigalfan said:

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

LOL, and the study was done in Taiwan or something...not even in the US.

purplethunder3121 said:

prodigalfan said:

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

I concur

babynoz said:

angel345 said:

The cardiologist seems more appalled at the thought of using propofol for sleep. He was grilling Murray. I believe that he said that propofol is not even FDA approved. Also, he stated that MJ went into respiratory arrest NOT cardiac arrest. Therefore, he could have been saved, had Murray called 911 right away, in addition to him using proper procedure. MJ did not need cpr, he needed oxygen. His heart was beating fast and his pressure was dropping, yet he still had a pulse. This is according to the cardiologist.

Yep, the witness was appalled for real. He said there were eight separate violations of treatment protocol.

The real reason that Murray didn't call 911 right away is because he was busy hiding vials

That's a shame for not calling 911. I must have missed out on the other two separate violations he gave. I thought it was six

angel345 said:

alphastreet said:

Yeah it's really not my thing either at all in real life, but I do get sensitive if you know what I mean though it has nothing to do with attraction

Like it's an distraction to you, I can dig it.

Not sure I get it, maybe in the morning....

kellistarr120 said:

I want to believe that if there was no trial, we would have never seen such a photo. It just doesn't feel decent, if not for Michael, then for his family. I felt that MJ couldn't rest in peace until this trial is over, but maybe that's just the thoughts of a living person, I think for me it feels like he isn't getting a rest because of this fiasco, it really doesn't seem real. This feels like some fictional story. I hope those jurors were listening to the autopsy doctor.

MJ looked really skinny, but according to Coroner his weight was reasonable for his height. Wow, obviously my mind has become distorted to what is normal. It isn't the worst celebrity autopsy photo that I've seen, Tupac Shakur's was absolute horrors. The impression of his photo stayed on my mind for many weeks. This trial is moving right along. Earlier I read approx. 6 weeks, then I heard several months. Has anyone else heard this? How could this trial possibly last several months when it seems the writing's on the wall.

Trust me, a trial like this can drag on and on. The most common factors in trial length are the number of exhibits and witnesses presented. In a high profile case the judges calendar isn't usually a factor since they tend to clear other matters to make room for high profile cases.

Another example is when a single motion can hold up a trial for days at a time if the judge asks for supporting case law, (which means research), or sometimes even requires testimony just on a single legal issue related to the case as a whole where the judge would have to rule on that particular issue before the trial can proceed.

babynoz said:

purplethunder3121 said:

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

LOL, and the study was done in Taiwan or something...not even in the US.

^^^ Now, THAT about the study, I missed!

babynoz said:

prodigalfan said:

Oh and yes, Propofol may have been used in colonoscopy if you were completely out. I would bet though they used Versed and Fentanyl. Sort of like a twilight combo. Propofol is easy to use... but since it can only be given by an Anesthesiologist or Nurse anethestics... no one wants to wait for them to show up for your case. If you can keep the patient comfortable and sedated without propofol... then that is what you rather do.

Besides... Propofol has the potential for some tricky and deadly adverse reactions.... low b/p and respiratory arrest are the 2 big ones.

I've had it done with twilight the first time and knocked out the second. I preferred being knocked out since it's quite uncomfortable.

Some questions for ya. The testimony is that Murray gave MJ several other sedatives before the propofol. I'm curious if drug interaction could have played a part in causing the respiratory arrest?

Yes, theoretically another sedative could have had a cumalitive effect... making a person more sleepy. But anyone skilled in anesthesiology would know to adjust the amount given. There is no set dose... you give until you have reach the desired effect... some people will need more than others. There is no recommended amount. and if you are noticing someone going to far under.... (too sedated) you back off of the amount given and allow the patient to be more arousable and you protect him while he is vunerable... you assist him in maintaining airway, ventilation, and circulation. CPR... airway, breathing circulation... those are the "ABC's " of CPR.

It is not hard, it is really simple but you have to be skilled and diligent. Did you hear what the doctor said? If Murray had taken steps to be dilligent and prepared... there is no doubt the MJ would not have died that day. That is it in a nutshell.

Also the doc testified that cpr was not the correct procedure because it wasn't a cardiac arrest so why would Murray have done it?

I think he panicked. He knew he f8cked up and was trying fix it. In order to know there was a heartbeat, he had to feel for a pulse. There is no need to beat on the chest to get the heart circulating blood if the heart is still working on its own. Just need to provide oxygen (ambu bag)

And why was the ambu bag on the daggone floor???

He probably used it, didn't know how to set it up, and then just threw it down and started something else that he felt he could do to help.

As you can see, we need you here...

I was worried about the prosecution but reading what I could find on the expert witnesses, they got the right one baby. I read that this same cardiologist testimony was used to decide to revoke Murray's medical license earlier this year. So this cardiologist is well versed on Murray and has done this sort of testimony in this very case before. So I think they really did get the right one.

I bet Murray hates his guts... because it was his testimony that took his livelihood away... his medical license and now is coming back to take away his freedom.

angel345 said:

babynoz said:

Yep, the witness was appalled for real. He said there were eight separate violations of treatment protocol.

The real reason that Murray didn't call 911 right away is because he was busy hiding vials

That's a shame for not calling 911. I must have missed out on the other two separate violations he gave. I thought it was six

Actually it was six...I stand corrected.

There is no doubt that Murray panicked. According to his testimony, he ran downstairs asking for Prince(?!!) to come upstairs and asking for help from the chef (!!!). WTF!!!

angel345 said:

prodigalfan said:

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The cardiologist seems more appalled at the thought of using propofol for sleep. He was grilling Murray. I believe that he said that propofol is not even FDA approved. Also, he stated that MJ went into respiratory arrest NOT cardiac arrest. Therefore, he could have been saved, had Murray called 911 right away, in addition to him using proper procedure. MJ did not need cpr, he needed oxygen. His heart was beating fast and his pressure was dropping, yet he still had a pulse. This is according to the cardiologist.

okay my first thought when I heard about this back in 2009 was I also thought it was respiratory arrest. It is the most common thing that happens when giving Propofol.

But how do they really know that it was respiratory and not a sudden dangerous drop in blood pressure that sent MJ into cardiac arrest?

The paramedic (an independent medical witness) found MJ lifeless. So the only thing we can go on is Murray. I don't believe anything he says.

he lied about the medication he gave and the amount, he lied about what he was treating MJ for, He lied about the guards having to go to public restroom, he lied to the supplier about the reason he was ordering cases of propofol.

I believe he lied lied lied.

I don't think he left MJ for 2 minutes... I think he either fell asleep or left the house. I think he did this several times before and felt comfortable because nothing happened before.

I don't think the lady heard MJ coughing... I think she heard Murray coughing or choking when he discovered MJ. I really think MJ's death was unwitnessed.... during the night or early morning... in his "sleep".

I think the reason MJ was cold and eyes dried out at 10 ish is because that is when Murray found him. I don't think that was the time of death. Rigor mortis had set in. MJ was gone for hours before. So that coughing the girlfriend heard wasn't MJ struggling in the throes of death.. it was Murray freaking out.

I don't think Murray just gave an injection. Just like this doctor said today... MJ would have only been out for several minutes... therefore it only makes sense that he used a drip. This would also explain why MJ had a condom catheter on... he was goiing to be out for hours and needed to be able to stay continent.

So again.. how do they know that MJ still had a pulse?? because the LIAR who didn't WRITE ANYTHING said so???? Well I don't believe him.

purplethunder3121 said:

prodigalfan said:

At least 2 nurses like me... and all the monitoring equipment. Simply because if there was an emergency.,.. you need a second pair of skilled hands. You are fighting to save a life. You don't have time to describe what an ambu bag looks like... or how to connect it to an oxygen tank while you are trying to revive a person. The second person just needs to KNOW and DO.

I LOVE these 2 expert witnesses. I hope the jury was paying attention, becasue what I read about the testimonies... that was the real deal. Just like I have been saying all along. Funny how the doctors kept saying they have NEVER heard of Propofol used for sleep. I haven't heard or met anyone in my line of work who have heard of this before.

They don't even lock or count propofol at the hospitals. It is NOT a controlled substance.

You don't get high off of it, you don't get addicted to it.... It just has none of those affects. It just makes you go unconcious and then you "wake up". No rested feeling, you don't feel like you slept.

I am baffled... and the doctors are as well.

I didn't see the testimony live. did the doctors seem APPALLED that Murray would even do this? It

sounds like it from the article I read.

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

awww shucks

thank you.

prodigalfan said:

babynoz said:

He probably used it, didn't know how to set it up, and then just threw it down and started something else that he felt he could do to help.

As you can see, we need you here...

I was worried about the prosecution but reading what I could find on the expert witnesses, they got the right one baby. I read that this same cardiologist testimony was used to decide to revoke Murray's medical license earlier this year. So this cardiologist is well versed on Murray and has done this sort of testimony in this very case before. So I think they really did get the right one.

I bet Murray hates his guts... because it was his testimony that took his livelihood away... his medical license and now is coming back to take away his freedom.

Thanks, we're gonna keep you on standby,

I couldn't get over hearing the witness say that MJ would have been alive if only this clown knew what he was doing...damn!

That witness is doing a public sevice.

babynoz said:

kellistarr120 said:

I want to believe that if there was no trial, we would have never seen such a photo. It just doesn't feel decent, if not for Michael, then for his family. I felt that MJ couldn't rest in peace until this trial is over, but maybe that's just the thoughts of a living person, I think for me it feels like he isn't getting a rest because of this fiasco, it really doesn't seem real. This feels like some fictional story. I hope those jurors were listening to the autopsy doctor.

MJ looked really skinny, but according to Coroner his weight was reasonable for his height. Wow, obviously my mind has become distorted to what is normal. It isn't the worst celebrity autopsy photo that I've seen, Tupac Shakur's was absolute horrors. The impression of his photo stayed on my mind for many weeks. This trial is moving right along. Earlier I read approx. 6 weeks, then I heard several months. Has anyone else heard this? How could this trial possibly last several months when it seems the writing's on the wall.

Trust me, a trial like this can drag on and on. The most common factors in trial length are the number of exhibits and witnesses presented. In a high profile case the judges calendar isn't usually a factor since they tend to clear other matters to make room for high profile cases.

Another example is when a single motion can hold up a trial for days at a time if the judge asks for supporting case law, (which means research), or sometimes even requires testimony just on a single legal issue related to the case as a whole where the judge would have to rule on that particular issue before the trial can proceed.

And I just want to take the opportunity to thank you Baby. YOu are providing information on the legal proceedings that I am sure none of us would understand without your interpretation.

I'm envious of you because you seem like a "smart cookie". I always wanted to go into law... so just reading your posts... gives me chills. You sound like a real bad azz.... and just....

GWONE with your bad self!!!

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

The cardiologist seems more appalled at the thought of using propofol for sleep. He was grilling Murray. I believe that he said that propofol is not even FDA approved. Also, he stated that MJ went into respiratory arrest NOT cardiac arrest. Therefore, he could have been saved, had Murray called 911 right away, in addition to him using proper procedure. MJ did not need cpr, he needed oxygen. His heart was beating fast and his pressure was dropping, yet he still had a pulse. This is according to the cardiologist.

okay my first thought when I heard about this back in 2009 was I also thought it was respiratory arrest. It is the most common thing that happens when giving Propofol.

But how do they really know that it was respiratory and not a sudden dangerous drop in blood pressure that sent MJ into cardiac arrest?

The paramedic (an independent medical witness) found MJ lifeless. So the only thing we can go on is Murray. I don't believe anything he says.

he lied about the medication he gave and the amount, he lied about what he was treating MJ for, He lied about the guards having to go to public restroom, he lied to the supplier about the reason he was ordering cases of propofol.

I believe he lied lied lied.

I don't think he left MJ for 2 minutes... I think he either fell asleep or left the house. I think he did this several times before and felt comfortable because nothing happened before.

I don't think the lady heard MJ coughing... I think she heard Murray coughing or choking when he discovered MJ. I really think MJ's death was unwitnessed.... during the night or early morning... in his "sleep".

I think the reason MJ was cold and eyes dried out at 10 ish is because that is when Murray found him. I don't think that was the time of death. Rigor mortis had set in. MJ was gone for hours before. So that coughing the girlfriend heard wasn't MJ struggling in the throes of death.. it was Murray freaking out.

I don't think Murray just gave an injection. Just like this doctor said today... MJ would have only been out for several minutes... therefore it only makes sense that he used a drip. This would also explain why MJ had a condom catheter on... he was goiing to be out for hours and needed to be able to stay continent.

So again.. how do they know that MJ still had a pulse?? because the LIAR who didn't WRITE ANYTHING said so???? Well I don't believe him.

The cardiologist testimony was based on Murray's interview with the police. If you noticed or heard, he had notes of Murray's testimony. He agreed there's some holes in Murray's story that only Murray can fill. The cardiologist did estimate that he must have left the room for more than two minutes, and he did not follow proper procedures.

prodigalfan said:

babynoz said:

Trust me, a trial like this can drag on and on. The most common factors in trial length are the number of exhibits and witnesses presented. In a high profile case the judges calendar isn't usually a factor since they tend to clear other matters to make room for high profile cases.

Another example is when a single motion can hold up a trial for days at a time if the judge asks for supporting case law, (which means research), or sometimes even requires testimony just on a single legal issue related to the case as a whole where the judge would have to rule on that particular issue before the trial can proceed.

And I just want to take the opportunity to thank you Baby. YOu are providing information on the legal proceedings that I am sure none of us would understand without your interpretation.

I'm envious of you because you seem like a "smart cookie". I always wanted to go into law... so just reading your posts... gives me chills. You sound like a real bad azz.... and just....

GWONE with your bad self!!!

Awww, thanks...you pick up on a few things after more than 20 years of this,

Your insight has been much appreciated as well. It's good to know we have nurses like you out there!

yeah, we discussed at work one day... the concensus is the Idiot fell nodded off. The girlfriend was the "wakeup" call. She called late... and when she called... he talked to her, and wandered into the room and realized...

"Oh shyt!"

See, that is why the routine was Murray would fetch the breakfast at 10ish. He was or had already awakened MJ.

That morning, he was late... He was discovering MJ at 10ish when usually MJ was awake, freshened up in the bathroom and was ready to eat breakfast. So that means Murray was off the timetable by at least 45 minutes to an hour by my estimation... (time it would take for MJ to be "awakened" allowed to go to bathroom to freshen up, remove the condom and IV etc. and then go get his breakfast tray)

So where was Murray during this time of timetable variation?? Sleep or running late returning to the house.

The fool fell asleep. It is not hard to do. That is why you need more than 1 person to monitor. We are human beings... and you have to be able to accomodate human error without losing human life. That is why there is always 2 or more medically trained people when there is a patient present. You can't have just 1 nurse.

We are going through this debate with governing agencies because now they want 2 nurses directly in the room during cases. 1 nurse's SOLE DUTY IS TO SEDATE AND MONITOR. Nothing else... don't hand off any catheters... that are stored in the same room, don't give any other kinds of medications..... just sedate and monitor... and a 2nd nurse does all those other duties... and a 3rd nurse is watching and monitoring from the control booth. 3 nurses and 2 doctors and this is not even Propofol.

Y'all just can't comprehend just how LUDICROUS and out of good medical practice that this Murray did.

Thanks for the videos. I will have to watch them on my iphone at lunch tomorrow. teeheehee.

Good night all. Keep up the good work keeping everyone informed of the proceedings.

We give Court TV a run for its money here on the Org.

Gotta get my azz in bed now. 7 am alarm time will be here very soon.

prodigalfan said:

purplethunder3121 said:

The two doctors I saw on the witness stand, yesterday and today, seemed totally APPALLED that Murray would do this, even when the gray-haired defense attorney tried to bring up ONE study concerning the use of Propofol as a "sleep aid" on a study group with sleeping problems from 2010. The doctor on the stand was quick to point out that this singular study was done AFTER MJ's death and had no application to the case at hand. This was a CONTROLLED study with the conventional safeguards in a lab environment for--if I remember correctly--two hours per night for two or more weeks. NOT on a nightly basis in a home setting for five-eight-or more hours, as in Murray's case. A very weak attempt on the defense's part to establish some kind of scientifically documented credibility for Murray's actions. As professionals like you, Prodigalfan, can testify--there is no legitimate legal or medical reason or basis for Murray treating a sleep disorder in the manner that he did--without all the safeguards necessary with extra monitoring equipment and crucial back-up personnel, such as yourself! IMO the defense attorneys went a long way with these testimonies in proving Dr. Murray's negligience.

And you are right--when I went through several colonoscopies, there were doctors, anesthesiologists, and MOST IMPORTANTLY! the professional nurses who were at my bedside constantly and involved with every step of the procedure. Nurses DO catch things that other staff do not! Also, now that I think about it--more than one medication was used to make sure I was completely "out" for the right amount of time and waking up with no adverse side effects--although I seem to be more tolerant than many patients of the medications, for whatever reason. But I would certainly NEVER do this outside of a hospital under ANY circumstances. That is what sleep clinics are for.

Thank you very much for your professional insight, Prodigalfan And, also, know that so many patients like me really do appreciate nurses like you.

awww shucks

thank you.

No, THANK YOU! And for nurses like you who reassure patients when heavy-handed doctors get their prognoses wrong and scare patients for no necessary reason. NURSES make the medical world work--whether the medical establishment wants to admit it or not.

Thanks to everyone who has professional knowledge, following this trial closely, and sharing your responses. That makes it much more informative and interesting to follow the trial and this thread.

prodigalfan said:

Thanks for the videos. I will have to watch them on my iphone at lunch tomorrow. teeheehee.

Good night all. Keep up the good work keeping everyone informed of the proceedings.

We give Court TV a run for its money here on the Org.

Gotta get my azz in bed now. 7 am alarm time will be here very soon.

court tv sucks cause there will be testimony then boom commercial. it's better 2 watch this trail streamling

The old idiot is saying that Murray's treatment had positive results. I didn't know death was a positive result.

[Edited 10/13/11 9:05am]