prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

This report shows that it was drawn on 6/25/09. Is there a more updated report from the Toxicologist? Remember, it took almost two months for them to do the autopsy because they wanted to make sure no other drugs were found present that was overlooked. Still a long time.

are you saying that there was a later toxicology sample drawn? After the body was buried? What would be the purpose? I can understand it taking several months to get all of the results needed from THAT sample... but why a second sample?

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

THERE WAS NO DAMN SECOND SAMPLE! Jesus Christ...!!!

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

This report shows that it was drawn on 6/25/09. Is there a more updated report from the Toxicologist? Remember, it took almost two months for them to do the autopsy because they wanted to make sure no other drugs were found present that was overlooked. Still a long time.

are you saying that there was a later toxicology sample drawn? After the body was buried? What would be the purpose? I can understand it taking several months to get all of the results needed from THAT sample... but why a second sample?

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

Remember it took so long to get a full autopsy? I read somewhere that it was possible that they wanted to make sure that no other drugs other than the two reported in the first one was present, while they look further. What I am saying is if there are no other drugs present, shouldn't it be a second report to show the court that the first report still stands?

About this supposed "second sample", if there is indeed a "second sample", then why didn't the prosecution/defense never got it? Everything has to be presented to court. If it's not presented in court, why would anyone think it was out there? If that had been the case, the trial would've been set back a few days.

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

are you saying that there was a later toxicology sample drawn? After the body was buried? What would be the purpose? I can understand it taking several months to get all of the results needed from THAT sample... but why a second sample?

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

THERE WAS NO DAMN SECOND SAMPLE! Jesus Christ...!!!

You're wrong for that, and very disrespectful.

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

THERE WAS NO DAMN SECOND SAMPLE! Jesus Christ...!!!

You're wrong for that, and very disrespectful.

Read my post above. My apologies but come on, really?

angel345 said:

prodigalfan said:

are you saying that there was a later toxicology sample drawn? After the body was buried? What would be the purpose? I can understand it taking several months to get all of the results needed from THAT sample... but why a second sample?

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

Remember it took so long to get a full autopsy? I read somewhere that it was possible that they wanted to make sure that no other drugs other than the two reported in the first one was present, while they look further. What I am saying is if there are no other drugs present, shouldn't it be a second report to show the court that the first report still stands?

Okay I understand what you are saying.

Not necessarily a second sample, just more results from the original sample... taken during the autosopy process.

I believe there are some drug and toxicology results that take longer to process than others. Some substances are stored in fat cells, and hair shaft among other vital organs such as the liver and kidneys.

When citing a cause of death.... the coroner has to ensure there is no evidence of long term poisoning etc. So they have to do a THOROUGH search not just serum (blood levels) that may not be conclusive results.

Also I think the LA county laboratory is understaffed/overworked and have a back log.

In addition, depending on how sophisticated the test needed, the coroner office will send out lab test.... and that takes additional time as well.

So that is why there maybe a delay in the most comprehensive toxicology result.

I just couldn't understand the need for a second sample. I can only imagine that needing to be done if there was some question of the validity of the source... contamination of the existing sample, or a rare test that they did not gather the sample for.

I would imagine in MJ case since it is such a high profile case and immediately it was known that this would be a homocide case... that all such tests and verifications of source was done with the utmost of care.

BTW, I just wrote something that just struck me as really shocking and sad:

MJ is dead, and his death was due to HOMOCIDE! Ironically sad and odd that MJ has joined a sobering statistic of a Black male dying due to homocide.

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

Remember it took so long to get a full autopsy? I read somewhere that it was possible that they wanted to make sure that no other drugs other than the two reported in the first one was present, while they look further. What I am saying is if there are no other drugs present, shouldn't it be a second report to show the court that the first report still stands?

Okay I understand what you are saying.

Not necessarily a second sample, just more results from the original sample... taken during the autosopy process.

I believe there are some drug and toxicology results that take longer to process than others. Some substances are stored in fat cells, and hair shaft among other vital organs such as the liver and kidneys.

When citing a cause of death.... the coroner has to ensure there is no evidence of long term poisoning etc. So they have to do a THOROUGH search not just serum (blood levels) that may not be conclusive results.

Also I think the LA county laboratory is understaffed/overworked and have a back log.

In addition, depending on how sophisticated the test needed, the coroner office will send out lab test.... and that takes additional time as well.

So that is why there maybe a delay in the most comprehensive toxicology result.

I just couldn't understand the need for a second sample. I can only imagine that needing to be done if there was some question of the validity of the source... contamination of the existing sample, or a rare test that they did not gather the sample for.

I would imagine in MJ case since it is such a high profile case and immediately it was known that this would be a homicide case... that all such tests and verifications of source was done with the utmost of care.

BTW, I just wrote something that just struck me as really shocking and sad:

MJ is dead, and his death was due to HOMICIDE! Ironically sad and odd that MJ has joined a sobering statistic of a Black male dying due to homocide.

You got that right! But yeah there was no second sample. It wouldn't be possible for one but that seems more reasonable than just flat out saying it was a second sample.

By the way, if I seem rude today, well basically I'm pissed.

[Edited 10/10/11 19:05pm]

Timmy84 said:

About this supposed "second sample", if there is indeed a "second sample", then why didn't the prosecution/defense never got it? Everything has to be presented to court. If it's not presented in court, why would anyone think it was out there? If that had been the case, the trial would've been set back a few days.

I have never said there was a second sample. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Read back my post and comment on the toxicology report. I ASKED if there was an second sample of the autopsy report. If this report is conclusive, why bring up other drugs that the prosecution felt was in his system? Why did the autopsy take so long? You've got an answer for that? Debunk that lie by presenting a second report to shut the prosecution up. I am not saying the man was an addict, and I hope that's not what you're implying in the back of your mind. Let me say this: Like it or not, I am going to post my beliefs and comments here. Ignore it, if you don't like it or take it up with a mod.

prodigalfan said:

angel345 said:

Remember it took so long to get a full autopsy? I read somewhere that it was possible that they wanted to make sure that no other drugs other than the two reported in the first one was present, while they look further. What I am saying is if there are no other drugs present, shouldn't it be a second report to show the court that the first report still stands?

Okay I understand what you are saying.

Not necessarily a second sample, just more results from the original sample... taken during the autosopy process.

I believe there are some drug and toxicology results that take longer to process than others. Some substances are stored in fat cells, and hair shaft among other vital organs such as the liver and kidneys.

When citing a cause of death.... the coroner has to ensure there is no evidence of long term poisoning etc. So they have to do a THOROUGH search not just serum (blood levels) that may not be conclusive results.

Also I think the LA county laboratory is understaffed/overworked and have a back log.

In addition, depending on how sophisticated the test needed, the coroner office will send out lab test.... and that takes additional time as well.

So that is why there maybe a delay in the most comprehensive toxicology result.

I just couldn't understand the need for a second sample. I can only imagine that needing to be done if there was some question of the validity of the source... contamination of the existing sample, or a rare test that they did not gather the sample for.

I would imagine in MJ case since it is such a high profile case and immediately it was known that this would be a homocide case... that all such tests and verifications of source was done with the utmost of care.

BTW, I just wrote something that just struck me as really shocking and sad:

MJ is dead, and his death was due to HOMOCIDE! Ironically sad and odd that MJ has joined a sobering statistic of a Black male dying due to homocide.

Thanks for understanding. I know that you're in the medical field, and thanks for clearing that up. Many suspect his death as homicide, anyway.

I'm not against what you're saying, just don't believe it. And nah I'm not gonna do that. Obviously you got your own opinions. I ain't that crazy. We cool? Cool.

@Timmy:

No offense taken. Hope you are feeling better tomorrow. Remember we got a court case to watch.

BTW, I tried to post this about 5 times! The org is really messing up tonight.

prodigalfan said:

@Timmy:

No offense taken. Hope you are feeling better tomorrow. Remember we got a court case to watch.

BTW, I tried to post this about 5 times! The org is really messing up tonight.

I'm good. I don't know, I get on this board or another site and my mood just darkens. If I seem upset at certain comments, it wasn't even at ANYBODY, it's just that when some folks have their opinions, I can't expect to be calm for too long especially when it concerns Michael Jackson. Maybe I'm too passionate and it comes off as disrespectful. I don't know how one or two people took it as that but I guess it's understandable. Nothing personal with anyone... But oh well, like you said, we got a court case tomorrow...

[Edited 10/10/11 19:20pm]

wow .

He Timmy it is easy to get really caught up in these public trials especially when it is someone who you admired for a long time.

I was pretty messed up when Teena Marie died... I still can't listen to her music... I just skip it on my ipod... and I have always LOVED ME SOME TEENA.

But still... Teena did not died under such awful and suspect circumstances like MJ. So I can only imagine how it can get to you.

I have been sucked into this case not so much because of MJ. I was only a casual fan of his... I kind of lost him after Smooth Criminal album.... (that is why I am called the prodigalfan.. I drop them and pick them up all the time )

I am more on this thread because I am anti-Conrad. I feel passionately about this "doctor" doing so much harm to his patient... and so little good. I don't want ANYONE to shift the blame to the victim (MJ) or feel any sympathy for a Fool on this board.

prodigalfan said:

He Timmy it is easy to get really caught up in these public trials especially when it is someone who you admired for a long time.

I was pretty messed up when Teena Marie died... I still can't listen to her music... I just skip it on my ipod... and I have always LOVED ME SOME TEENA.

But still... Teena did not died under such awful and suspect circumstances like MJ. So I can only imagine how it can get to you.

I have been sucked into this case not so much because of MJ. I was only a casual fan of his... I kind of lost him after Smooth Criminal album.... (that is why I am called the prodigalfan.. I drop them and pick them up all the time )

I am more on this thread because I am anti-Conrad. I feel passionately about this "doctor" doing so much harm to his patient... and so little good. I don't want ANYONE to shift the blame to the victim (MJ) or feel any sympathy for a Fool on this board.

So am I sister. SO AM I.

But yeah it fucking sucks it has to come down this way. I wished it hadn't but you can't turn back time.

[Edited 10/10/11 19:46pm]

Timmy84 said:

I'm not against what you're saying, just don't believe it. And nah I'm not gonna do that. Obviously you got your own opinions. I ain't that crazy. We cool? Cool.

Timmy, I miss the man and his music, too. I am a child of the 70's, so I am a long time fan. It broke my heart the other day, listening to that audio tape. I can also be the type of person that needs to analyze things. I am looking for closure, too. I find that as I get older, I am doing it more, especially with my own life's situations. You are forgiven I hope that justice is served.

Might have played a role too. I'm tempted to believe it's more a combination of things that caused his death/disappearance than just one single reason - no matter how simpler and more desirable that sounds.

On another note: that was just beautiful what happened on this last page: an Org reconciliation...

tmo1965 said:

angel345 said:

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

I have to wonder if his fear of someone killing him was the result of drug induced paranoia.

Flo6 said:

Might have played a role too. I'm tempted to believe it's more a combination of things that caused his death/disappearance than just one single reason - no matter how simpler and more desirable that sounds.

On another note: that was just beautiful what happened on this last page: an Org reconciliation...

tmo1965 said:

I have to wonder if his fear of someone killing him was the result of drug induced paranoia.

No, I think his paranoia was fueled by his real life experience and not by any drugs. I challenge anyone to live under that kind of scrutiny and pressure without feeling like they need some kind of relief. But, in saying that, I wish MJ could have left his own gigantic personna behind and escaped to a foreign country and let his fame fade into the past... Maybe raise his kids on a ranch in Europe or somewhere far away from the crowds...like Paul McCartney did.

Michael's life was real complicated. I doubt drugs fueled his paranoia either. If I was in his shoes, I'd probably felt that same sense of craziness around me.

purplethunder3121 said:

Flo6 said:

Might have played a role too. I'm tempted to believe it's more a combination of things that caused his death/disappearance than just one single reason - no matter how simpler and more desirable that sounds.

On another note: that was just beautiful what happened on this last page: an Org reconciliation...

No, I think his paranoia was fueled by his real life experience and not by any drugs. I challenge anyone to live under that kind of scrutiny and pressure without feeling like they need some kind of relief. But, in saying that, I wish MJ could have left his own gigantic personna behind and escaped to a foreign country and let his fame fade into the past... Maybe raise his kids on a ranch in Europe or somewhere far away from the crowds...like Paul McCartney did.

I know... I think part of it was MJ competitive spirit... wanting to be on top. You have to acknowledge he had that in him... it was part of what made him the superstar that he was.

Also, I think MJ liked to live large and he began to experience a cashflow... that prompted him to leave the Middle East and return to US to work. I am not saying that he was broke... because apparently he was not. But there must have been a line that he crossed financially. From where you can rent out the entire Disney world theme park so that you can enjoy it in seclusion.... or close down an entire high scale department store... (not for sure of the exact instances, but I did read he did several over the top things like this)

To now, you have to blend with the other exclusive and rich stars. You know not broke just not SUPER rich anymore.

Well it is my opinion that when the money was starting to slow down... why not dust off your dancing shoes and line yourself to clear several tens of millions of dollars for about 6 months of work?

I know I would.

Only to be far, since I had to reel in the first thread. This is bout the trial. I know nothing happened today in court, but lets take non trial issues to the sticky.

Tomorrow should be more topical thankfully.

lazycrockett said:

Only to be far, since I had to reel in the first thread. This is bout the trial. I know nothing happened today in court, but lets take non trial issues to the sticky.

Tomorrow should be more topical thankfully.

Sorry! I swore to myself I wouldn't go off on a tangent on this thread and I did. I won't do it again.

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

@Timmy:

No offense taken. Hope you are feeling better tomorrow. Remember we got a court case to watch.

BTW, I tried to post this about 5 times! The org is really messing up tonight.

I'm good. I don't know, I get on this board or another site and my mood just darkens. If I seem upset at certain comments, it wasn't even at ANYBODY, it's just that when some folks have their opinions, I can't expect to be calm for too long especially when it concerns Michael Jackson. Maybe I'm too passionate and it comes off as disrespectful. I don't know how one or two people took it as that but I guess it's understandable. Nothing personal with anyone... But oh well, like you said, we got a court case tomorrow...

[Edited 10/10/11 19:20pm]

I feel ya. I got so angry during the weekend, when at a celebration of our school's hundred anniversary many ex- workers met with us and had a lunch. There was this one lady that I didn't know cause she had worked there before I came and I wasn't introduced to her. I just heard her come to the table saying she just read a "shocking revelation in the papers: MJ slept with a doll." And all the others started to comment that in his case that's not a shocking revelation and started making fun of him, insulting him, commenting on his looks how he bleached his skin and then someone mentioned that they had heard he had some desease at which that lady said: "oh, I bet that was after that. God knows what he got himself injected with to be white....." I was soooooooooooo pissed for the rest of the day and my respect for some of my collegues who because part of this idiotic discussion lowered rapidly, but I couldn¨t say anything cause I felt I was getting too angry and that it wasn¨t an apporpriate situation to get into it cause I know I would end up being very disrespectful to her and we were not even introduced. I hate this agnorance and this revelling in badmouthing others.

That sounds so awful to hear dag, it's like when I had a work assignment at a different location a few years ago, someone was joking about MJ's surgery to someone younger, but I was in the room next door overhearing it and I didn't know those people, so I couldn't jump in to defend him and felt weird someone older is joking with someone younger about it when it's most likely the case that both he and MJ had a passion for helping those less fortunate.

Yeah, terrible.

Anyway, I am just listening to the trial and I am amazed at how calm Murray sounds considering the police interview took place three days afterwards. I remember what state I was at during that time. Can't imagine talking about it like that without any emotion.

dag said:

Timmy84 said:

I'm good. I don't know, I get on this board or another site and my mood just darkens. If I seem upset at certain comments, it wasn't even at ANYBODY, it's just that when some folks have their opinions, I can't expect to be calm for too long especially when it concerns Michael Jackson. Maybe I'm too passionate and it comes off as disrespectful. I don't know how one or two people took it as that but I guess it's understandable. Nothing personal with anyone... But oh well, like you said, we got a court case tomorrow...

[Edited 10/10/11 19:20pm]

I feel ya. I got so angry during the weekend, when at a celebration of our school's hundred anniversary many ex- workers met with us and had a lunch. There was this one lady that I didn't know cause she had worked there before I came and I wasn't introduced to her. I just heard her come to the table saying she just read a "shocking revelation in the papers: MJ slept with a doll. " And all the others started to comment that in his case that's not a shocking revelation and started making fun of him, insulting him, commenting on his looks how he bleached his skin and then someone mentioned that they had heard he had some desease at which that lady said: "oh, I bet that was after that. God knows what he got himself injected with to be white....." I was soooooooooooo pissed for the rest of the day and my respect for some of my collegues who because part of this idiotic discussion lowered rapidly, but I couldn¨t say anything cause I felt I was getting too angry and that it wasn¨t an apporpriate situation to get into it cause I know I would end up being very disrespectful to her and we were not even introduced. I hate this agnorance and this revelling in badmouthing others.

prodigalfan said:

dag said:

I feel ya. I got so angry during the weekend, when at a celebration of our school's hundred anniversary many ex- workers met with us and had a lunch. There was this one lady that I didn't know cause she had worked there before I came and I wasn't introduced to her. I just heard her come to the table saying she just read a "shocking revelation in the papers: MJ slept with a doll. " And all the others started to comment that in his case that's not a shocking revelation and started making fun of him, insulting him, commenting on his looks how he bleached his skin and then someone mentioned that they had heard he had some desease at which that lady said: "oh, I bet that was after that. God knows what he got himself injected with to be white....." I was soooooooooooo pissed for the rest of the day and my respect for some of my collegues who because part of this idiotic discussion lowered rapidly, but I couldn¨t say anything cause I felt I was getting too angry and that it wasn¨t an apporpriate situation to get into it cause I know I would end up being very disrespectful to her and we were not even introduced. I hate this agnorance and this revelling in badmouthing others.

Not that this seems important to the trial... but this does sound odd. Was this something he was doing at the time of his death?

There appeared a doll in the pictures of the bedroom and that was what all the idiotic tabloids over here have made of the trial so far.

dag said:

prodigalfan said:

Not that this seems important to the trial... but this does sound odd. Was this something he was doing at the time of his death?

There appeared a doll in the pictures of the bedroom and that was what all the idiotic tabloids over here have made of the trial so far.

prodigalfan said:

dag said:

There appeared a doll in the pictures of the bedroom and that was what all the idiotic tabloids over here have made of the trial so far.

oh so no pictures of him sleeping with a doll. Just one present in his bedroom. It was a big room and lots of items that aren't necessarily bedroom accessories. I guess a doll is not something you would find in the average single man's bedroom. But then MJ was not average.

no, there's no picture of him sleeping with a doll.

According to the doctor who made the autopsy "He was healthier than the average people his age."