^ I thought this when I saw that MJ had a closed casket funeral.

And did the service televised have all the traditional religious rituals for death included?

I have always imagined that the mother (Katherine Jackson) was very traditional with her religion and would have insisted that the service for MJ would be more or less just like the service for John Doe's JW funeral service.

Some how I just think the public memorial lacked some things that are rituals of funerals just because it was private or viewed as possibly not mainstream.

Who knows? The memorial service never went right with me. I hardly watched the funeral either.

Flo6 said:

No, not at all, in Vince Foster's case, I suspect much more a murder, some plot to get rid of him by the people he had annoyed earlier on in his career. I've lived in Russia for 8 years and I've observed that in political or business fights in high circles, not to mention the mafia-related ones, the 'suicide' theory is wildly used to cover such suspicious/unexplained deaths of opponents.

The analogy I found with MJ is that while I am open to the possibility of him faking his death, I also still think that a murder is possible - he had too many enemies. In any case, there is strong evidence to me that this 'death' has not been caused by such simple causes as are being mentioned now in court, that there is some serious foul play, tampering with the facts/truth on quite a high level.

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

And in the case of dirty deals and a murder case: I believe that's very possible too (for the reasons I cited above), and also for the simple fact that I believe that, sadly, corruption and dirty scams do happen on a mass level in this world. In Russia they call this 'contract killing'. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last I fear.

I do wish to add that I don't really relate to the whole emotional thing about 'wishing and believing him to still be alive, not accepting reality, etc. Maybe that's how many fans feel, and fair enough, they are entitled to their emotions. But no matter how much I love the man & his music, on a personal, emotional level I don't feel that related to him to the point that I couldn't accept his death as real fact. I'm only waiting for evidence and the truth about still unanswered and burning questions on this case.

And as for the fans' gathering in Forest Lawn: no I didn't see anything suspicious or strange going on. Admittedly, it was my very first time at such an event [my fandom - of Prince mostly - and other artists has always been confined to attending concerts, nothing else]. So it was just lots of singing and prayers, and also 'I/We love you Michael' from the crowds - all this was quite a thing to see, it was hard not to feel some special 'feel' or his presence somehow in the air.

It was hard also not to be taken by the place: it's beautiful [rolling hills all around, a beautiful, quite impressive architectural structure where his mausoleum is], and this being June, it was a lovely sunny day. I am now joking with my 83 year old mum that I have found for her a resting place she would love:) [Sorry about the dark humor, couldn't help it! ]

There are 3 pictures I took at Forest Lawn on that day at this link, which I hope is still accessible [a friend of mine told me he had problems, so I have made it 'public']. [the other pics are just general LA ones]:

https://picasaweb.google.com/105700894385821705594/LosAngelesJune2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGb47GI0JbW2wE

angel345 said:

So, with the same analogy, would you say that Vince Foster faked his death? I've been hearing about the so-called death hoax of MJ for the past two years. Was there something strange about the atmosphere when you visit Forest Lawn, aside from the fact that it's a cemetary? I am trying to figure out what is causing you to think or suspect anything foul.

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

@Flo6: Nice photos and a dream to be buried there. Expensive, too

lazycrockett said:

^As of yet I haven't had time to listen to it, I just managed to catch a couple of updates this weekend.

From what CNN was saying that Murray comes off as a doctor concerned bout his patient and gives a long history of what other doctors had done to MJ and what was expected of him to also do.

I'm able to watch the trial while I work. The police interview/tape actually proves that Murray was lying about what happened. In the tape, he says that he went to the bathroom for a few minutes and came back to find MJ not breathing. However, the cell phone records and girlfriend testimony shows that he was on the phone for at least 5 minutes before he notice MJ was not breathing.

I've noticed that you can't take what's in the media as gospel.

angel345 said:

Flo6 said:

No, not at all, in Vince Foster's case, I suspect much more a murder, some plot to get rid of him by the people he had annoyed earlier on in his career. I've lived in Russia for 8 years and I've observed that in political or business fights in high circles, not to mention the mafia-related ones, the 'suicide' theory is wildly used to cover such suspicious/unexplained deaths of opponents.

The analogy I found with MJ is that while I am open to the possibility of him faking his death, I also still think that a murder is possible - he had too many enemies. In any case, there is strong evidence to me that this 'death' has not been caused by such simple causes as are being mentioned now in court, that there is some serious foul play, tampering with the facts/truth on quite a high level.

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

And in the case of dirty deals and a murder case: I believe that's very possible too (for the reasons I cited above), and also for the simple fact that I believe that, sadly, corruption and dirty scams do happen on a mass level in this world. In Russia they call this 'contract killing'. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last I fear.

I do wish to add that I don't really relate to the whole emotional thing about 'wishing and believing him to still be alive, not accepting reality, etc. Maybe that's how many fans feel, and fair enough, they are entitled to their emotions. But no matter how much I love the man & his music, on a personal, emotional level I don't feel that related to him to the point that I couldn't accept his death as real fact. I'm only waiting for evidence and the truth about still unanswered and burning questions on this case.

And as for the fans' gathering in Forest Lawn: no I didn't see anything suspicious or strange going on. Admittedly, it was my very first time at such an event [my fandom - of Prince mostly - and other artists has always been confined to attending concerts, nothing else]. So it was just lots of singing and prayers, and also 'I/We love you Michael' from the crowds - all this was quite a thing to see, it was hard not to feel some special 'feel' or his presence somehow in the air.

It was hard also not to be taken by the place: it's beautiful [rolling hills all around, a beautiful, quite impressive architectural structure where his mausoleum is], and this being June, it was a lovely sunny day. I am now joking with my 83 year old mum that I have found for her a resting place she would love:) [Sorry about the dark humor, couldn't help it! ]

There are 3 pictures I took at Forest Lawn on that day at this link, which I hope is still accessible [a friend of mine told me he had problems, so I have made it 'public']. [the other pics are just general LA ones]:

https://picasaweb.google.com/105700894385821705594/LosAngelesJune2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGb47GI0JbW2wE

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

I have to wonder if his fear of someone killing him was the result of drug induced paranoia.

paranoia, in my experience, seems pretty common. Drugs may make it more pronounced but, especially in america, people are always in fear of something, well we're pumped full of the idea of fear constantly. Anyway, Dick Gregory is a conspiracy nut, when he was first interviewed after mike's death, he said nothing about Mike having people after him, then, when latoya and others started saying it, he jumped right on board. Mike must have thought people were after him, everyone (lisa Marie included) was told that people wanted him dead. Personally, I like conspiracy theories just for the interest factor but I rarely believe them. Problem is, people take them too far and whatever might be true becomes so ridiculous that it's insane. I don't know much about drugs but I know that certain ones make people paranoid, marijuana and cocaine do.

Since we are only on page 11 I figured we may as well just continue the discussion on this thread instead of closing it and starting another.

Looks like the prosecution will rest sometimes this week and the defense will start to present its argument.

Usual rules apply, this thread is bout the trial, all else goes to the sticky.

[Edited 10/9/11 23:28pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 0:06am]

petes2 said:

paranoia, in my experience, seems pretty common. Drugs may make it more pronounced but, especially in america, people are always in fear of something, well we're pumped full of the idea of fear constantly. Anyway, Dick Gregory is a conspiracy nut, when he was first interviewed after mike's death, he said nothing about Mike having people after him, then, when latoya and others started saying it, he jumped right on board. Mike must have thought people were after him, everyone (lisa Marie included) was told that people wanted him dead. Personally, I like conspiracy theories just for the interest factor but I rarely believe them. Problem is, people take them too far and whatever might be true becomes so ridiculous that it's insane. I don't know much about drugs but I know that certain ones make people paranoid, marijuana and cocaine do.

Because he's mentioned this before his death:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...cPeO5h03KI If Gregory is an conspiracy nut, then what does that make his mother?

lazycrockett said:

Since we are only on page 11 I figured we may as well just continue the discussion on this thread instead of closing it and starting another.

Looks like the prosecution will rest sometimes this week and the defense will start to present its argument.

Usual rules apply, this thread is bout the trial, all else goes to the sticky.

[Edited 10/9/11 23:28pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 0:06am]

angel345 said:

petes2 said:

paranoia, in my experience, seems pretty common. Drugs may make it more pronounced but, especially in america, people are always in fear of something, well we're pumped full of the idea of fear constantly. Anyway, Dick Gregory is a conspiracy nut, when he was first interviewed after mike's death, he said nothing about Mike having people after him, then, when latoya and others started saying it, he jumped right on board. Mike must have thought people were after him, everyone (lisa Marie included) was told that people wanted him dead. Personally, I like conspiracy theories just for the interest factor but I rarely believe them. Problem is, people take them too far and whatever might be true becomes so ridiculous that it's insane. I don't know much about drugs but I know that certain ones make people paranoid, marijuana and cocaine do.

Because he's mentioned this before his death:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...cPeO5h03KI If Gregory is an conspiracy nut, then what does that make his mother?

Yes, it was after his death, but this is what he said.

Not surprised about the Russia mafia in NY, they are everywhere [with especially strong cooperative networks in the major US cities], and quite characteristically, they are not so 'Russian' in the sense that as long as you can work for them/meet their requirements, they will take you in their ranks, regardless of nationality.

And broad-daylight killings are a regular occurrence in Moscow too [the last one I recall, the governor of a northeastern district was shot at 3 pm, in a busy street in the city center]... Pedestrians barely turned round, they seemed used to it!..

But to go back to MJ:

You make some very interesting suggestions/theories, some of which I had never heard of or read in media reports and biographies, but that seem totally plausible to me.

The idea that he was being deprived of food & water for ex. is the first time I hear it, [I thought his weight loss was kind of his own making, even not wittingly, simply due to a lack of appetite and stress perhaps]. But one has to wonder why so slim/skinny for so long?... I had read once about him having to be hospitalized because of dehydration during rehearsals or just after a concert [can't remember], and I found it mind-boggling that his staff didn't provide for enough liquids to be around for his concert/rehearsal needs. How could that be? That's where your theory comes in handy and seems to point at a possible cause...

But yes, on the whole, there are high, very high powers at play in this whole thing [both his life & death], higher than the general public realizes maybe. And here too, you ask very pertinent questions [whom he had perhaps angered to create so much hostility/vendetta feelings around him, etc]

I don't care if the comparison is silly, but I find literature, particularly classic tragedies, quite useful to get a sense of the scale of what we are dealing with here. Pick any Shakespearean/Jacobean tragedy, or even better, a classic Greek one: the classic model is that they involve high-ranking people [kings, queens, army leaders, etc, and it's all there, all the elements and forces I suspect are at play here: political/business intrigues, backstabbings, manipulations and betrayals, conspiracies, psychological and physical torture, and murders, all revolving around high-powered people vying for even more power. The ending is usually very ugly... and ends with the death/murder of the hero.

I might be getting a bit cynical with age:)... but I think the higher we climb the echelons of society & power, and the more economic/political/etc interests are involved, the more we get these kinds of scenarios...

So in a sense it doesn't surprise me too much what happened to MJ and how murky/mysterious it all is.

angel345 said:

Flo6 said:

No, not at all, in Vince Foster's case, I suspect much more a murder, some plot to get rid of him by the people he had annoyed earlier on in his career. I've lived in Russia for 8 years and I've observed that in political or business fights in high circles, not to mention the mafia-related ones, the 'suicide' theory is wildly used to cover such suspicious/unexplained deaths of opponents.

The analogy I found with MJ is that while I am open to the possibility of him faking his death, I also still think that a murder is possible - he had too many enemies. In any case, there is strong evidence to me that this 'death' has not been caused by such simple causes as are being mentioned now in court, that there is some serious foul play, tampering with the facts/truth on quite a high level.

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

And in the case of dirty deals and a murder case: I believe that's very possible too (for the reasons I cited above), and also for the simple fact that I believe that, sadly, corruption and dirty scams do happen on a mass level in this world. In Russia they call this 'contract killing'. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last I fear.

I do wish to add that I don't really relate to the whole emotional thing about 'wishing and believing him to still be alive, not accepting reality, etc. Maybe that's how many fans feel, and fair enough, they are entitled to their emotions. But no matter how much I love the man & his music, on a personal, emotional level I don't feel that related to him to the point that I couldn't accept his death as real fact. I'm only waiting for evidence and the truth about still unanswered and burning questions on this case.

And as for the fans' gathering in Forest Lawn: no I didn't see anything suspicious or strange going on. Admittedly, it was my very first time at such an event [my fandom - of Prince mostly - and other artists has always been confined to attending concerts, nothing else]. So it was just lots of singing and prayers, and also 'I/We love you Michael' from the crowds - all this was quite a thing to see, it was hard not to feel some special 'feel' or his presence somehow in the air.

It was hard also not to be taken by the place: it's beautiful [rolling hills all around, a beautiful, quite impressive architectural structure where his mausoleum is], and this being June, it was a lovely sunny day. I am now joking with my 83 year old mum that I have found for her a resting place she would love:) [Sorry about the dark humor, couldn't help it! ]

There are 3 pictures I took at Forest Lawn on that day at this link, which I hope is still accessible [a friend of mine told me he had problems, so I have made it 'public']. [the other pics are just general LA ones]:

https://picasaweb.google.com/105700894385821705594/LosAngelesJune2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGb47GI0JbW2wE

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

Thank you! and yes, you bet:)

angel345 said:

@Flo6: Nice photos and a dream to be buried there. Expensive, too

Flo6 said:

Not surprised about the Russia mafia in NY, they are everywhere [with especially strong cooperative networks in the major US cities], and quite characteristically, they are not so 'Russian' in the sense that as long as you can work for them/meet their requirements, they will take you in their ranks, regardless of nationality.

And broad-daylight killings are a regular occurrence in Moscow too [the last one I recall, the governor of a northeastern district was shot at 3 pm, in a busy street in the city center]... Pedestrians barely turned round, they seemed used to it!..

But to go back to MJ:

You make some very interesting suggestions/theories, some of which I had never heard of or read in media reports and biographies, but that seem totally plausible to me.

The idea that he was being deprived of food & water for ex. is the first time I hear it, [I thought his weight loss was kind of his own making, even not wittingly, simply due to a lack of appetite and stress perhaps]. But one has to wonder why so slim/skinny for so long?... I had read once about him having to be hospitalized because of dehydration during rehearsals or just after a concert [can't remember], and I found it mind-boggling that his staff didn't provide for enough liquids to be around for his concert/rehearsal needs. How could that be? That's where your theory comes in handy and seems to point at a possible cause...

But yes, on the whole, there are high, very high powers at play in this whole thing [both his life & death], higher than the general public realizes maybe. And here too, you ask very pertinent questions [whom he had perhaps angered to create so much hostility/vendetta feelings around him, etc]

I don't care if the comparison is silly, but I find literature, particularly classic tragedies, quite useful to get a sense of the scale of what we are dealing with here. Pick any Shakespearean/Jacobean tragedy, or even better, a classic Greek one: the classic model is that they involve high-ranking people [kings, queens, army leaders, etc, and it's all there, all the elements and forces I suspect are at play here: political/business intrigues, backstabbings, manipulations and betrayals, conspiracies, psychological and physical torture, and murders, all revolving around high-powered people vying for even more power. The ending is usually very ugly... and ends with the death/murder of the hero.

I might be getting a bit cynical with age:)... but I think the higher we climb the echelons of society & power, and the more economic/political/etc interests are involved, the more we get these kinds of scenarios...

So in a sense it doesn't surprise me too much what happened to MJ and how murky/mysterious it all is.

angel345 said:

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

tmo1965 said:

angel345 said:

When I lived in NY, back in maybe 2005, a man was shot and killed in front of crowds of people in the diamond district, in broad light. It made the front page. It turns out that the Russian mafia was involved. To my understanding, the Russian and Jewish mafia is worse than the Italian mafia.

As for MJ, people close to him said he feared for his life for years. Dick Gregory, an American activist stated that MJ once told him someone was out to kill him, someone was depriving him of food and water, and according to Gregory, he was very dehydrated. I believe there was a quote of Gregory saying that doctors make the best assasins. Even his own mother said the same that he feared for his life on an "Dateline" interview.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...uDMFspwuzs

Then, there's his sister LaToya and ex-wife saying this. Based on this, and these are reliable sources that people can research for themselves, I get your meaning. It kinda make you wonder what's really going on. Did he have Illuminati or mob ties, and he wanted out? Was Murray used to put a "hit" out on MJ, and he take the fall, but walk away with a lighter punishment? What type of atmosphere that MJ created that he feared for his death? Sure, it seems absurd to many, but the possibilities are there, considering that the higher powers wanted his catalogue collection for years. He was becoming a powerful force to the masses, and I don't know if it's true, he had a message to tell the world on his upcoming tour before he died. His brother Marlon said at the memorial that MJ would love to travel in disguises to avoid being mobbed. However, I could put it aside, and also agree with alphabetstreet that regardless if he's dead or 'dead', he's still no longer around. His life was just as mysterious as his death.

[Edited 10/9/11 14:49pm]

I have to wonder if his fear of someone killing him was the result of drug induced paranoia.

Could it be an illness or could it be that someone was really after him. It is amazing that what he feared came true, and the court is saying that some things, including what Murray said doesn't add up. Well, let's see, and that's if the public will get the real truth.

angel345 said:

Flo6 said:

Not surprised about the Russia mafia in NY, they are everywhere [with especially strong cooperative networks in the major US cities], and quite characteristically, they are not so 'Russian' in the sense that as long as you can work for them/meet their requirements, they will take you in their ranks, regardless of nationality.

And broad-daylight killings are a regular occurrence in Moscow too [the last one I recall, the governor of a northeastern district was shot at 3 pm, in a busy street in the city center]... Pedestrians barely turned round, they seemed used to it!..

But to go back to MJ:

You make some very interesting suggestions/theories, some of which I had never heard of or read in media reports and biographies, but that seem totally plausible to me.

The idea that he was being deprived of food & water for ex. is the first time I hear it, [I thought his weight loss was kind of his own making, even not wittingly, simply due to a lack of appetite and stress perhaps]. But one has to wonder why so slim/skinny for so long?... I had read once about him having to be hospitalized because of dehydration during rehearsals or just after a concert [can't remember], and I found it mind-boggling that his staff didn't provide for enough liquids to be around for his concert/rehearsal needs. How could that be? That's where your theory comes in handy and seems to point at a possible cause...

But yes, on the whole, there are high, very high powers at play in this whole thing [both his life & death], higher than the general public realizes maybe. And here too, you ask very pertinent questions [whom he had perhaps angered to create so much hostility/vendetta feelings around him, etc]

I don't care if the comparison is silly, but I find literature, particularly classic tragedies, quite useful to get a sense of the scale of what we are dealing with here. Pick any Shakespearean/Jacobean tragedy, or even better, a classic Greek one: the classic model is that they involve high-ranking people [kings, queens, army leaders, etc, and it's all there, all the elements and forces I suspect are at play here: political/business intrigues, backstabbings, manipulations and betrayals, conspiracies, psychological and physical torture, and murders, all revolving around high-powered people vying for even more power. The ending is usually very ugly... and ends with the death/murder of the hero.

I might be getting a bit cynical with age:)... but I think the higher we climb the echelons of society & power, and the more economic/political/etc interests are involved, the more we get these kinds of scenarios...

So in a sense it doesn't surprise me too much what happened to MJ and how murky/mysterious it all is.

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

It's one thing to think outside the box, it's another to think someone is either hiding or being kidnapped. Michael certainly didn't mean what you guys are talking about. Ain't there a trial we're supposed to be talking about? Jesus Christ. You wanna talk about Michael still being alive, go to the sticky.

No trial today--it resumes tomorrow.

purplethunder3121 said:

No trial today--it resumes tomorrow.

Ah OK.

Timmy84 said:

angel345 said:

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

It's one thing to think outside the box, it's another to think someone is either hiding or being kidnapped. Michael certainly didn't mean what you guys are talking about. Ain't there a trial we're supposed to be talking about? Jesus Christ. You wanna talk about Michael still being alive, go to the sticky.

I said what I said about the trial, and I was responding to Flo. Dude knew more about the media, and how they operated. I didn't say that Michael was officially alive, so I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.

I have no problems discussing other things about MJ in the sticky.

Cinnamon234 said:

The Toxicologist is speaking now. No Demerol was found in MJ's system like The Defense claimed. No PCP. No Cocaine. No Marijuana,etc. Lidocaine and Propofol (Which is what killed him) were found.

This report shows that it was drawn on 6/25/09. Is there a more updated report from the Toxicologist? Remember, it took almost two months for them to do the autopsy because they wanted to make sure no other drugs were found present that was overlooked. Still a long time.

As said, I don't ascertain or claim firm knowledge of anything, I'm just throwing ideas around, suspicions I have and possible theories in an effort to investigate, find the truth, and if only - understand this trial - a healthy exercise imo, as I said. There wouldn't be such a thing as investigative journalism if people weren't asking questions.

Then, we are not all blessed with knowing what was in Michael's head and what he meant:)...

In the end, maybe he didn't know himself...

Also, I don't think this trial is taking place in a vacuum. Discussing MJ's favorite toothpaste brand might be stretching it a little, but otherwise, plenty of aspects of his life can be a source of revealing info and do matter in this case imo.

Timmy84 said:

angel345 said:

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

It's one thing to think outside the box, it's another to think someone is either hiding or being kidnapped. Michael certainly didn't mean what you guys are talking about. Ain't there a trial we're supposed to be talking about? Jesus Christ. You wanna talk about Michael still being alive, go to the sticky.

[Edited 10/10/11 16:48pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 16:49pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 16:50pm]

Yes, and the funny thing is that those who support the official line are the ones doing the labeling thing, calling the other side 'conspiracy theorists', while their version could be as much a conspiracy theory too, since it likewise hasn't been proven correct yet.

angel345 said:

Flo6 said:

Not surprised about the Russia mafia in NY, they are everywhere [with especially strong cooperative networks in the major US cities], and quite characteristically, they are not so 'Russian' in the sense that as long as you can work for them/meet their requirements, they will take you in their ranks, regardless of nationality.

And broad-daylight killings are a regular occurrence in Moscow too [the last one I recall, the governor of a northeastern district was shot at 3 pm, in a busy street in the city center]... Pedestrians barely turned round, they seemed used to it!..

But to go back to MJ:

You make some very interesting suggestions/theories, some of which I had never heard of or read in media reports and biographies, but that seem totally plausible to me.

The idea that he was being deprived of food & water for ex. is the first time I hear it, [I thought his weight loss was kind of his own making, even not wittingly, simply due to a lack of appetite and stress perhaps]. But one has to wonder why so slim/skinny for so long?... I had read once about him having to be hospitalized because of dehydration during rehearsals or just after a concert [can't remember], and I found it mind-boggling that his staff didn't provide for enough liquids to be around for his concert/rehearsal needs. How could that be? That's where your theory comes in handy and seems to point at a possible cause...

But yes, on the whole, there are high, very high powers at play in this whole thing [both his life & death], higher than the general public realizes maybe. And here too, you ask very pertinent questions [whom he had perhaps angered to create so much hostility/vendetta feelings around him, etc]

I don't care if the comparison is silly, but I find literature, particularly classic tragedies, quite useful to get a sense of the scale of what we are dealing with here. Pick any Shakespearean/Jacobean tragedy, or even better, a classic Greek one: the classic model is that they involve high-ranking people [kings, queens, army leaders, etc, and it's all there, all the elements and forces I suspect are at play here: political/business intrigues, backstabbings, manipulations and betrayals, conspiracies, psychological and physical torture, and murders, all revolving around high-powered people vying for even more power. The ending is usually very ugly... and ends with the death/murder of the hero.

I might be getting a bit cynical with age:)... but I think the higher we climb the echelons of society & power, and the more economic/political/etc interests are involved, the more we get these kinds of scenarios...

So in a sense it doesn't surprise me too much what happened to MJ and how murky/mysterious it all is.

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

Flo6 said:

Yes, and the funny thing is that those who support the official line are the ones doing the labeling thing, calling the other side 'conspiracy theorists', while their version could be as much a conspiracy theory too, since it likewise hasn't been proven correct yet.

angel345 said:

I believe when people think outside the box, and if they don't fully believe the official story, they are labeled as an conspiracy theorist. Just stick to the official story, and ask no questions. It's funny because before he died, he said don't believe everything you read.

Just because he said that doesn't mean he didn't die.

Like I said, some are just grasping at straws...

purplethunder3121 said:

Flo6 said:

Yes, and the funny thing is that those who support the official line are the ones doing the labeling thing, calling the other side 'conspiracy theorists', while their version could be as much a conspiracy theory too, since it likewise hasn't been proven correct yet.

Just because he said that doesn't mean he didn't die.

I'll try and keep it short because it's about the trial. What I meant was for years, while he was living, he used to let the public know don't believe everything you read. He knew how the media operates, and there were times that he used it to his advantage. Knowing how they operated didn't necessary mean in reference to him, alone.

^ We know the media sucks. We also know Michael is dead. Let's just move on, please? We got a trial tomorrow.

Flo6 said:

As said, I don't ascertain or claim firm knowledge of anything, I'm just throwing ideas around, suspicions I have and possible theories in an effort to investigate, find the truth, and if only - understand this trial - a healthy exercise imo, as I said. There wouldn't be such a thing as investigative journalism if people weren't asking questions.

Then, we are not all blessed with knowing what was in Michael's head and what he meant:)...

In the end, maybe he didn't know himself...

Also, I don't think this trial is taking place in a vacuum. Discussing MJ's favorite toothpaste brand might be stretching it a little, but otherwise, plenty of aspects of his life can be a source of revealing info and do matter in this case imo.

Timmy84 said:

It's one thing to think outside the box, it's another to think someone is either hiding or being kidnapped. Michael certainly didn't mean what you guys are talking about. Ain't there a trial we're supposed to be talking about? Jesus Christ. You wanna talk about Michael still being alive, go to the sticky.

[Edited 10/10/11 16:48pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 16:49pm]

[Edited 10/10/11 16:50pm]

Some reporters have been afraid to bare all that they know because they've feared for their jobs and lives. However, let's see the outcome of this trial.

Timmy84 said:

^ We know the media sucks. We also know Michael is dead. Let's just move on, please? We got a trial tomorrow.

If I watch it, and I don't watch much TV, I would like for them to discuss the update of that toxicology report. The other one is too old.

angel345 said:

Cinnamon234 said:

The Toxicologist is speaking now. No Demerol was found in MJ's system like The Defense claimed. No PCP. No Cocaine. No Marijuana,etc. Lidocaine and Propofol (Which is what killed him) were found.

This report shows that it was drawn on 6/25/09. Is there a more updated report from the Toxicologist? Remember, it took almost two months for them to do the autopsy because they wanted to make sure no other drugs were found present that was overlooked. Still a long time.

are you saying that there was a later toxicology sample drawn? After the body was buried? What would be the purpose? I can understand it taking several months to get all of the results needed from THAT sample... but why a second sample?

Maybe I misunderstood your post.